EV Digest 6094
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: IOTA DC/DC VOLTAGE LIMITS?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Pickup truck drag
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Train 163 vs. High Rail Truck .Oopsie!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Pickup truck drag
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: IOTA DC/DC VOLTAGE LIMITS?
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Train 163 vs. High Rail Truck .Oopsie!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: SEMA Automotive Show in Vegas
by "Chelsea Sexton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Raptor issues?
by "Andrew A." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Pickup truck drag
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Pusher Trailer
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: FS: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by Tony Furr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Pickup truck drag
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Pickup truck drag
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Now I'm fairly certain a controller would need 2 microcontrollers
because there's the frame-grounded signal side and the HV
pack-grounded side. It's probably not the easiest and most
effective/reliable solution to drive the main transistors through
isolated signals and it may not be all that practical to read the
analog signals (like a pedal) through optoisolators. That's where I
think an optically isolated serial link between them would be most
effective. This means the hardware serial port is occupied and I'd
generally want to have a second external serial port for talking to a
computer, palm pilot, EVilBus, whatever. Unfortunately not many
(none, I think) of the DIP pkg PICs have dual hardware serial ports
(UARTs). Not that a TQFP surface mount is a really serious problem
though.
Danny
Interesting... what split of duties between micros are you talking about
exactly? A micro-controlled "power stage" with it's own PWM whatnot?
I would prefer a "LV" and a "HV" split. Why would you want to use RS232
for com between the two MCU anywho? I2C/SPI seems a bit better suited
for that task. Plus, then you can use the EUSART for "teminal" chatter
and the SSP for the inter-chip communication. This also positions you
into taking advantage of the endless selection of I2C/SPI peripherals
out there.
Let's say you have a HV board that has a 18F2431 on it, along with some
discreet hardware:
Duties:
Generate PWM signal(s) for gate driver(s)
Monitor HV line (battery pack & motor current & voltage)
Monitor any HV ground reference sensors
Respond to input from LV Board (set current power level, set current
limits, set voltage limits)
Send telemetry to LV Board
Send diagnostic info out RS232?
Now let's add a LV board that also has a 18F2431 on it (one processor
model makes dev a bit easier)
Duties:
Monitor TPS and other car frame ground reference sensors
Send operational commands to HV board
Send telemetry out RS232/USB/EVilBus
Perform other cool tasks (instrument panel outputs, valet mode, yadada...)
You could put the power ramp calculations and other "drivability" things
on either one.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Ranger and the S-10 have the exact same size batteries. The big
difference is the Ranger are 8 volt and the S-10 are 12 volt. They are 15.25
inches
long 4.6 inches wide and 7 inches tall.
I have not come across any UPS battery that would stand up to EV use.
So if they did fit it would only be a short time before they fail. The
Ranger has a very large battery tray compared to the S-10. Getting enough deep
cycle lead in there is no where near the problem as with the S-10.
Don
In a message dated 11/3/2006 3:21:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It basically is not different than the Ford Ranger EV
conversoin from the weird 8V batteries to 12V as detailed
here: http://southtownelanes.com/electric_pickups.html
although my preference would be to tap into the inter-cell
connections to allow the BMS to still act on each block of
4 cells as Lee suggested before.
I have a request in for a drawing of the internal
battery interconnects to allow this without ruining them ;-)
For the GM S-10 the major issue would be to find a fitting
battery replacement and re-configure the battery box for them
but it is not essentially different than what was done for
the Ranger, going from the 8V to the 12V is also a huge step.
Since the S10 BMS is already made for 12V, that is one less
worry, batt temp sensors are not that critical - they can be
stuck to any battery independent of size or shape.
You will need to take care of battery cooling by providing
passages, but that is all in the art of selecting and
layout of a different battery size.
(IF the original battery cannot be obtained from UPS supply
as I outlined earlier)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 8:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
Hello John
I would not say the S-10 EV came to a dead end. EVbones put a lot of them
back in service with the NiMH batteries and is help keeping them in
service.
Making another battery tray could be done to accommodate other size
batteries. It would not be easy an easy fix. When you consider the cost of
the
batteries and the time and materials I would call Jeff first.
Don
In a message dated 11/2/2006 6:30:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm curious as to whether a replacement was ever determined for
the Panasonic VRLA batteries originally in the 97 S-10EV. Is that still
a no-go without seriously hacking the truck? Sorry for not replying
directly to the post shown below from the archives but it pre-dates
my list membership. It seems a shame that another factory EV has become
a dead end.
John
*********************************************
RE: S-10 oem on eBay
What everyone else said. Basically they're a wierd size battery that is
no
longer available, and the box has the thermal management integrated in
to it,
plus sensors going to individual batteries. Granted it should be
possible to
possibly make the BMS happy with something else, having seen the battery
box out
of one of these it would be quite a feat to get it all to work happily.
I foregot their name, but someone bought the last one off eBay with the
battery box all hacked up where someone had tried making their own
battery box
arrangement and last I heard he was talking with EVBones about possibly
getting
a stock box to try and put it back together.
Deffinitely not an easy backyard project.
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Remind me what is wrong with replacing the original Panasonic VRLA
batteries with other SLA, either gel or AGM chemistry?
The specs http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/chvs10.pdf tell me
that the pack is only 48 Ah at C/2 rate and it has 40-60 miles
range with lead (and careful, constant speed driving).
This can easily be achieved again by a battery replacement,
I do not see why the truck would not be usable as is with
fresh batteries. (Saves a lot of money ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ricky Suiter
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: S-10 oem on eBay
This will be interesting to see how much it goes for. Since the
batteries
are dead and the PbA batteries are no longer available about the only
option
with this would be to just ship it to EVBones and have a NiMH retrofit
done.
I've talked with Jeff and they said these trucks are so heavily
integrated
there's almost no chance you could ever put any other battery in there
other
than what's supposed to be in there.
At least the seller is being honest. There is another owner of one of
these trucks locally who I think was the original owner and he put
50,000
miles on the original PbA pack before it finally was done. He did this
by
never taking it below 50%. This was a few years ago I saw the truck
right
before they got a new pack, so I'm guessing it must have been one of the
last lead packs obtainable right at the end of the EV1 support.
Dang it looks like it's in good shape otherwise.
Mike Ellis wrote:
He posted his response, they batts are dead.
So tempting.
-Mike
On 4/10/06, Jim Coate wrote:
> 1997 S-10 EV on eBay in Holland, MA:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4629840591
>
> As a 1997, it would have been built with PbA batteries, so I think the
> posted range was optimistic in '97, and very optimistic now if it
still
> has the original 9 year old pack in it. I have sent a question to the
> seller asking if the batteries have been replaced. The truck itself
> looks to be nice. These finds always leave me wondering where the
truck
> has been hiding for the past 9 years.
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1997 Solectria Force
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 3, 2006, at 1:36 PM, MARK DUTKO wrote:
I'm looking for a dc/dc for the Yaris that is high amperage and was
wondering if anyone has used the IOTA product with a higher voltage
pack?
My pack will be 192-204V and the IOTA 55 or 75A AC/DC specs are as
follows:
108-132V model- can go to 180V DC as per Iota sales
220-240V model (55A MAX) - Not know yet by Iota as to how far outside
the range or if DC can be used
Has anyone used the 108 model with a high pack voltage or the 220
model with a 192 or lower pack voltage with any success?
I would guess the 108 model is built with 200 volt parts (because
132vac has a peak voltage over 180 volts - 200v is the next standard
component spec.) Component peak voltage is its absolute peak, it may
survive more but all bets are off and it may not survive more the next
day. Because of this, I would say the lower voltage Iota units will not
work for you.
The question becomes, "What is the minimum input voltage for the 240vac
Iota?" I don't have an answer for that. Perhaps Iota has a conservative
answer or hopefully other list members have found out by experience.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am guessing but it seems to me the aerodynamics would change if your going
60 miles an hour verses 125 or 150 miles an hour.
What might be good aerodynamics at the high speed may not be good at 60. It
is well documented the tailgate up is best for street use.
Don
In a message dated 11/3/2006 4:25:19 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> According to this book, if you open the tail gate you reduce drag...
No, according to this book if you open the tail gate on a 1995 Dodge
Ram truck you can reduce drag. The results on other pickups will vary.
If you have access to similar data on one or more of the smaller
pickups please share. Many on this list would like to have aerodynamic
information about their electric pickup.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 7:46 PM
Subject: Train 163 vs. High Rail Truck
>All this talk about pickup air drag!Yada Yada Yada! This one got customized
at about 45 MPH. Electric train, though, still on topic<g>!Somebody will
have some ' splainin' to do.It's an Amtrak Truk, we keep it in the family!
In trainin'
Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.23/513 - Release Date: 11/2/06
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
On Nov 2, 2006, at 10:56 PM, Rush wrote:
I was just going thru a book I just got "Race Car Aerodynamics,
Designing for Speed", by Joseph Katz. On page 15 there is a brief
description of 'The Impact of Racing Aerodynamics on Production Cars' -
"One typical example of this group is the 1995 Dodge Ram truck, shown
in Fig 1.25. Note the rounded nose, which in addition to improving
its appearance also helps to reduce front drag. The problem with most
pickup trucks , though is the large base drag created by the cabin
and the tailgate. The drag coefficient of this Dodge Ram is about
Cd=0.47, which can be improved by dropping the tailgate or even
covering the bed. Some aftermarket products are aimed at improvements
in this area and nets replacing the tailgate can create noticeable
effects. The tailgate itself can also be turned into an airfoil, and
when rotated horizontally can add to the rear downforce and at the
same time reduce drag".
According to this book, if you open the tail gate you reduce drag...
No, according to this book if you open the tail gate on a 1995 Dodge
Ram truck you can reduce drag. The results on other pickups will vary.
If you have access to similar data on one or more of the smaller
pickups please share. Many on this list would like to have aerodynamic
information about their electric pickup.
Paul
This might be of a bit of help:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=18&article_id=1455
The study they reference is this one:
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2004-01-1146
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I asked them and no word back yet on 220 model min voltage- hopefully
someone here has some experience.
On Nov 3, 2006, at 4:28 PM, Paul G. wrote:
On Nov 3, 2006, at 1:36 PM, MARK DUTKO wrote:
I'm looking for a dc/dc for the Yaris that is high amperage and
was wondering if anyone has used the IOTA product with a higher
voltage pack?
My pack will be 192-204V and the IOTA 55 or 75A AC/DC specs are
as follows:
108-132V model- can go to 180V DC as per Iota sales
220-240V model (55A MAX) - Not know yet by Iota as to how far
outside the range or if DC can be used
Has anyone used the 108 model with a high pack voltage or the 220
model with a 192 or lower pack voltage with any success?
I would guess the 108 model is built with 200 volt parts (because
132vac has a peak voltage over 180 volts - 200v is the next
standard component spec.) Component peak voltage is its absolute
peak, it may survive more but all bets are off and it may not
survive more the next day. Because of this, I would say the lower
voltage Iota units will not work for you.
The question becomes, "What is the minimum input voltage for the
240vac Iota?" I don't have an answer for that. Perhaps Iota has a
conservative answer or hopefully other list members have found out
by experience.
Paul
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
Attachment was truncated.
Can you post it somewhere (on a website) and send a link?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 4:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Train 163 vs. High Rail Truck .Oopsie!
----- Original Message -----
From: "bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 7:46 PM
Subject: Train 163 vs. High Rail Truck
>All this talk about pickup air drag!Yada Yada Yada! This one got customized
at about 45 MPH. Electric train, though, still on topic<g>!Somebody will
have some ' splainin' to do.It's an Amtrak Truk, we keep it in the family!
In trainin'
Bob
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.13.23/513 - Release Date: 11/2/06
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have contemplated this with cheap but decent sized motors,
such as the Etek.
I think it was Dave Cloud who broke the NEDRA 48V record
with 8 Eteks installed in a hacked/gutted Geo Metro.
"Toy" motors have much lower efficiency than large motors.
R/C motors can put out quite an amount of power (like 1/2 HP)
for a very brief time but this won;t be long enough to get you to
freeway speeds, nor is the longevity of toy motors a design goal,
their bearing is often a bushing, not a ball bearing.
So do not expact that they will last longer than your donor car,
as is the usual case with EV sized heavy duty motors, unless
they 'Splode.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of GWMobile
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 12:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
Does the efficiency of a motor go up or down with size?
Just out of curiousity would a thouasand toy electric car motors linked
to a drive wheel by a rim gear on the wheel be more or less efficient
and or costly than a single large motor of similiar output running
through a tranny? (Wonder what the torque is of those tiny motorific
type toy car motors.)
Keep in mind you could turn off the portion of tiny motors you aren't
using at any speed or acceleration mode.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don,
Of course the Gel batteries have been used in EVs.
They even have a much longer life than AGMs, but must be
treated with respect. In UPS'es the largest risk is
cooking them to death.
In EV it is the overcharge and/or max discharge currents,
but in these factory conversions the pack voltage is 312V
so the currents are usually very mild.
I understand that the Ranger tray is larger when it had
8V batteries of the same size as the S10's 12v batteries
as it needed 50% more batteries to reach the same 312V.
That also measn that the GM S10 either will have a limited
range with Lead, or the conversion to another battery type
must also distribute part of the pack elsewhere in the
truck, so a larger pack can be accommodated.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 4:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
The Ranger and the S-10 have the exact same size batteries. The big
difference is the Ranger are 8 volt and the S-10 are 12 volt. They are
15.25 inches
long 4.6 inches wide and 7 inches tall.
I have not come across any UPS battery that would stand up to EV use.
So if they did fit it would only be a short time before they fail. The
Ranger has a very large battery tray compared to the S-10. Getting enough
deep
cycle lead in there is no where near the problem as with the S-10.
Don
In a message dated 11/3/2006 3:21:12 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It basically is not different than the Ford Ranger EV
conversoin from the weird 8V batteries to 12V as detailed
here: http://southtownelanes.com/electric_pickups.html
although my preference would be to tap into the inter-cell
connections to allow the BMS to still act on each block of
4 cells as Lee suggested before.
I have a request in for a drawing of the internal
battery interconnects to allow this without ruining them ;-)
For the GM S-10 the major issue would be to find a fitting
battery replacement and re-configure the battery box for them
but it is not essentially different than what was done for
the Ranger, going from the 8V to the 12V is also a huge step.
Since the S10 BMS is already made for 12V, that is one less
worry, batt temp sensors are not that critical - they can be
stuck to any battery independent of size or shape.
You will need to take care of battery cooling by providing
passages, but that is all in the art of selecting and
layout of a different battery size.
(IF the original battery cannot be obtained from UPS supply
as I outlined earlier)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 8:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: S-10 EV Battery Replacement?
Hello John
I would not say the S-10 EV came to a dead end. EVbones put a lot of them
back in service with the NiMH batteries and is help keeping them in
service.
Making another battery tray could be done to accommodate other size
batteries. It would not be easy an easy fix. When you consider the cost of
the
batteries and the time and materials I would call Jeff first.
Don
In a message dated 11/2/2006 6:30:21 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I'm curious as to whether a replacement was ever determined for
the Panasonic VRLA batteries originally in the 97 S-10EV. Is that still
a no-go without seriously hacking the truck? Sorry for not replying
directly to the post shown below from the archives but it pre-dates
my list membership. It seems a shame that another factory EV has become
a dead end.
John
*********************************************
RE: S-10 oem on eBay
What everyone else said. Basically they're a wierd size battery that is
no
longer available, and the box has the thermal management integrated in
to it,
plus sensors going to individual batteries. Granted it should be
possible to
possibly make the BMS happy with something else, having seen the battery
box out
of one of these it would be quite a feat to get it all to work happily.
I foregot their name, but someone bought the last one off eBay with the
battery box all hacked up where someone had tried making their own
battery box
arrangement and last I heard he was talking with EVBones about possibly
getting
a stock box to try and put it back together.
Deffinitely not an easy backyard project.
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Remind me what is wrong with replacing the original Panasonic VRLA
batteries with other SLA, either gel or AGM chemistry?
The specs http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/chvs10.pdf tell me
that the pack is only 48 Ah at C/2 rate and it has 40-60 miles
range with lead (and careful, constant speed driving).
This can easily be achieved again by a battery replacement,
I do not see why the truck would not be usable as is with
fresh batteries. (Saves a lot of money ;-)
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ricky Suiter
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 12:53 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: S-10 oem on eBay
This will be interesting to see how much it goes for. Since the
batteries
are dead and the PbA batteries are no longer available about the only
option
with this would be to just ship it to EVBones and have a NiMH retrofit
done.
I've talked with Jeff and they said these trucks are so heavily
integrated
there's almost no chance you could ever put any other battery in there
other
than what's supposed to be in there.
At least the seller is being honest. There is another owner of one of
these trucks locally who I think was the original owner and he put
50,000
miles on the original PbA pack before it finally was done. He did this
by
never taking it below 50%. This was a few years ago I saw the truck
right
before they got a new pack, so I'm guessing it must have been one of the
last lead packs obtainable right at the end of the EV1 support.
Dang it looks like it's in good shape otherwise.
Mike Ellis wrote:
He posted his response, they batts are dead.
So tempting.
-Mike
On 4/10/06, Jim Coate wrote:
> 1997 S-10 EV on eBay in Holland, MA:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4629840591
>
> As a 1997, it would have been built with PbA batteries, so I think the
> posted range was optimistic in '97, and very optimistic now if it
still
> has the original 9 year old pack in it. I have sent a question to the
> seller asking if the batteries have been replaced. The truck itself
> looks to be nice. These finds always leave me wondering where the
truck
> has been hiding for the past 9 years.
>
>
> --
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak's
> 1997 Solectria Force
> 1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ed was at SEMA doing a segment for his upcoming reality TV show, "Living
with Ed", which is being shot now and will premiere on Jan 1, 2007, on HGTV.
As for Hybrid Technologies, I'm not surprised they were there, but I
wouldn't draw any conclusions from it...
SEMA's a real gearhead show (which is the appeal!) but I agree that there's
a potential presence for EVs there for sure. The more examples that
efficiency and style aren't mutually exclusive, the better!
chels.
From: Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: SEMA Automotive Show in Vegas
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 2006 20:22:06 -0800 (PST)
I just got back from the SEMA show a couple hours ago, and wow what a show!
I initially walked right by the Phoenix Motor Cars the first time and
didn't think twice about it. When I walked back by I noticed a familiar
face, it was Ed Bagely Jr.! My first thought was what is he doing here?
Then, I realized I had recognized the SUT from somewhere. I got to speak
with Ed for a few minutes, he's a nice guy and was happy to know another
EAA member was there. He then did an on camera interview talking about the
vehicle. I'm not sure what show they did the first one for, but the Speed
Channel guys came by after and talked with him afterwards, so we might be
able to expect some Speed Channel coverage as well.
The SUT itself was pretty cool actually. In full SEMA fashion it has some
somewhat blingy wheels and even a Katzkin interior. Under the hood they had
some batteries right on top of everything so you could take a close look at
them, plus the rest of the pack was up under neath the cab. I found out the
base vehicle was some sort of Korean truck, but they wouldn't say exactly
what. I got their brochure on the vehicle and the batteries. It is front
motor rear wheel drive, AC motor that's liquid cooled along with the
inverter. The battery pack is rated for 35kwh according to the spec sheet I
got. They also claim a 10 minute recharge with optional off board charger,
a 6.6kw one is on board.
Another thing I saw there which suprised me was a Hybrid Technologies Smart
Car conversion. It was out front and there was no one there to tell me
anything about it so I'm not sure really how or why it was there. The only
way I knew what it was was because they had a big vinyl graphic on the side
with "Hybrid Technologies" and curiously "Dupont Registry" on the side. The
fuel filler door has a 30 amp 4 wire twist lock plug behind it....
ironically they still had the "diesel fuel only" sticker on the back side
of the little door. It was unlocked so I grabbed one of their brochures
from the car. There wasn't much in there thats not on their web site, what
cars they convert etc. Still I was happy to see it there.
So as a fresh thought in my head, I was thinking maybe next year the EAA
could have some sort of presence at SEMA. There was actually a sizeable
crowd around the Phoenix Motor Cars vehicle when Ed Bagely Jr. was doing
his interview. I'd be willing to help out.
Later,
Ricky
92 Saturn SC conversion
AZ Alt Fuel plate "ZEROGAS"
Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> wrote:
****************************************************************
Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:25:41 -0500
From: Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: SEMA Automotive Show in Vegas
Is any one in the Vegas area planning on attending the SEMA Motor Show
in Vegas Oct31-Nov3?
Phoenix Motorcars and Altair nanotechnologies are planning to exhibit
there. Here's a blurb:
The SEMA show will be the debut for the Phoenix Motorcars' electric
sports utility truck (SUT) powered entirely by Altairnano's innovative
NanoSafe nanotitanate batteries. Like its sister vehicle the SUV, that
was launched at the ZEV symposium in September, the SUT will have a
standard range of 130 miles, a charge time of 10 minutes and be capable
of freeway speeds up to 95 mph.
Altair announced: "it has completed 15,000 deep charge/discharge cycles
of its innovative NanoSafe battery cells. Even after 15,000 cycles the
cells still retained over 85% of their original charge capacity. This
represents a significant improvement over conventional, commercially
available rechargeable battery technologies such as lithium ion, nickel
metal hydride and nickel cadmium. These other commercially available
rechargeable batteries typically retain that level of charge capacity
only through approximately 1,000 deep charge/discharge cycles.
The battery cells were tested in Altairnano's labs at 10C (6 minute)
charge and discharge rates. They were deep charged and discharged
meaning they were taken to 100% charge and 0% charge respectively during
the 6-minute cycles. Although tests involved full charges and
discharges, partial charging and discharging of the battery does not
appear to impact the life or the holding charge capacity of the
batteries i.e. they exhibit no memory loss.
In theory, a 15,000 charge cycle life would translate into a battery
that would last greater than 40 years if it was charged daily, as would
be the case in an electric vehicle or plug-in hybrid electric vehicle
environment. However, in practice, other wear and tear factors would
realistically limit the actual life of the batteries to probably 20 years."
Does anyone know the downsides to this battery?
---------------------------------
We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo!
Groups.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi everyone,
I just bought a DCP Raptor 600, and I got in touch
with someone on the list who had the component board
blow on his Raptor. I understand that you can get an
upgrade for these controllers for $450 that will
prevent the board from blowing. I was just wondering
if this is something that I really need to worry
about. $450 is not cheap.
So, has anyone else out there had issues with the
Raptor? If so, what was the application (i.e.,
voltage, amp draw, type of vehicle, etc.)? Any help
would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Andrew
____________________________________________________________________________________
We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups
(http://groups.yahoo.com)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interestingly enough, I have not even gotten a copy of my message from the
newsgroup... So definitively something is messed up somewhere with the NG
server. All of my EVList messages take anywhere from 2 to 3 days to get back to
me, where as on my other newsgroups, it is just a matter or hours...
Peter wrote -
> Yeah, Id ask for a refund.
> The line "The tailgate itself can also be turned into an airfoil, and when
> rotated horizontally can add to the rear downforce and at the same time
> reduce drag"
>
> Tripped my B.S. meter. When you increase down force you INCREASE drag.
It may that your BS meter is busted Peter...
Let's just run some simple numbers, go with the original Cd of 0.47 with the
gate up. Lower the gate and you reduce the drag by, let's say 0.11, and if the
downward force increases by 0.05, then you have a net reduction of Cd by 0.06,
so the Cd then becomes 0.41. I think that you forgot about the fact that
lowering the tailgate REDUCES drag, and only wanted to think about downward
force.
> That's one of the reasons that Indy cars have a Cd of around 1.0
We're not talking about Racing cars here Peter...
>>
>> but according to wind tunnel tests (see www.cartalk.com) or track tests
>> (myth buzters) the tail gate up is better. Remember ANYONE can write
>> ANYTHING in a book.
and anyone can write anything in an email...
>> via Treo
>> David Hrivnak
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2006 8:58 PM
Subject: Re: Pusher Trailer
> It's not a vehicle, it's a trailer. You can't drive the trailer by
itself.
> If they allow you to register it as a trailer, then it;s a trailer and
> unless they add a law specifing that trailers can't push, it's legal.
Yes, I thought that was true, also, until I bought my first electric
scooter. Of all things, I was threatened by the police during the Earth Day
celebration... for owning an "electric skateboard." I inquired further and
was told that no vehicle is legal, unless specified in the Oregon Statutes.
Apparently it falls under... 801.050 Privilege of motorist to use highways.
Subject to compliance with the motor vehicle law of this state, owners and
operators of motor vehicles are granted the privilege of using the highways
of this state. [1983 c.338 §10; 1985 c.16 §8]
The statutes prohibit anyone from stopping the operation of a specified
vehicle... but all others seem free game. It'd be an interesting test.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the reply.
The problem is not the output voltage, which could be reduced. It's
the input voltage bottom end. At a low-line of 200vdc, my 144v car
won't start the DC-DC converter.
I picked this up at surplus, so I didn't have the luxury of picking
the exact voltage spec I was looking for. I would love to find a 25P
model for the $50 I paid for this one. Since the sales spec said "up
to 300vdc", I was hopefully optomistic. oh well.
Any high-voltage EVers need a DC-DC converter?
-tony
On Nov 3, 2006, at 11:20 AM, Eric Poulsen wrote:
Tony Furr wrote:
I recently purchased a Vicor Megamod DC-DC converter (VI-26L-IU)
from surplus in hopes of using it with my 144v system. The sales
spec claimed "up to 300v", but the paperwork with the unit says
the low-line is 199v and a high-line of 399v (output voltage is
28v). A call to Vicor support confirmed this won't work w/ my 144v
system since it will not power on below low-line.
Tony, the 26L has a nominal input voltage of 300VDC, and the input
range is 200 to 400VDC. The output is adjustable from 14V to 30.8V
A 25P would be ideal, but a 252, 251, 25N, or 253 would work.
FWIW, the part # breakdown is as follows. This is incomplete, but
covers common DC/DC voltages:
Part # format: VI-2XX-XX
First X is input voltage:
Nominal Range
0 12 10-20
1 24 21-31
W 24 18-36
2 36 21-56
3 48 42-60
N 48 36-76
4 72 55-100
T 110 66-160
5 150 100-200
6 300 200-400
7 150/300 100-375
Second X is output voltage:
Z 2
Y 3.3
0 5
X 5.2
W 5.5
V 5.8
T 6.5
R 7.5
M 10
1 12
P 13.8
2 15
N 18.5
3 24
L 28
J 36
K 40
4 48
H 52
F 72
D 85
B 95
Third X is temp range:
E -10 to 85C
C -25 to 85C
I -40 to 85C
M -55 to 85C
Last X is power (if vout >= 5V)
Y 50W
X 75W
W 100W
V 150W
U 200W
So it won't work for me, which is a shame because this is a nice
looking unit. It's new in the box and has never been installed. If
anyone is interested, contact me off-list. If you're looking for a
unit like this, you can get a great deal while helping me save the
15% restocking fee they will charge me for the return.
tony furr
76 lancia scorpion EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I also wondered about this. The older ECM's can't handle this, they
cheat at higher rpms on an ICE as it is. but maybe the megasquirt or
maybe just as a series motor controller . I have a 2000 malibu ECM here
just to play with for this purpose. I thought maybe 6 injectors =6
driveboards on 3 half bridges for an AC drive.
Perhaps for a DC controller just use an older "727" ECM they did "bank
fire"
If an ECM can fire 6 injectors once every 4 revolutions each at 6000
rpm that is only 1500 electric motor rpm's , If we want to PWM the
bottom set to a sign approximation we probably need a lot faster ECM
both for resolver input and PWM output.
if we use six step we have 6 switching elements to control
1 2 3 4 5 6
| _____________
X_| _____| |______
|______| |_______
|
|____________
Y_| |______ _______|
| |_____________|
|
| _____________
Z_|______ _______| |
| |____________|
B+-----------------------------------
| | |
q1 q3 q5
| | |
|_X |_Y |_Z
| | |
q2 q4 q6
| | |
B------------------------------------
If we want to keep the AC motor light and do 12K rpm's.... well that is
why it sits in a drawer for now.
If we consider using each injector as a pulse whose peak and hold
becomes freq and pulse width (variable freq and/or variable duty) every
4 rotations fires all 6 so if the ECM was capable of 6000 rpm then 6000
* 6 / 4 / 60 = 150hz , yuck. IN reality it can probably go a lot faster
but I don't think we are talking 10's of Khz.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Nov 03, 2006 at 10:55:53AM -0700, Rush wrote:
<..snip..>
> All of my EVList messages take anywhere from 2 to 3 days to get
> back to me, where as on my other newsgroups, it is just a matter or hours...
I've found this header in your email.
X-Greylist: Delayed for 14:22:11 by milter-greylist-1.6 (apollo.sjsu.edu
[130.65.3.73]); Fri, 03 Nov 2006 19:07:16 -0800 (PST)
I'll bet this is the problem.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
* (such as an attached file, a v-card, HTML formatting) *
* Lists at sjsu.edu only accept PLAIN TEXT *
* If your postings display this message your mail program *
* is not set to send PLAIN TEXT ONLY and needs adjusting *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> It may that your BS meter is busted Peter...
>
> Let's just run some simple numbers, go with the original Cd of 0.47
with the gate up. Lower the gate and you reduce the drag by, let's say
0.11, and if the downward force increases by 0.05, then you have a net
reduction of Cd by 0.06, so the Cd then becomes 0.41. I think that you
forgot about the fact that lowering the tailgate REDUCES drag, and
only wanted to think about downward force.
>
Where did you find these numbers? Doesn't lowering the gate *raise*
the drag by releasing the air bubble that moderates the air flow drop
from the top of the cab to the back of the truck? An SAE paper on
truck aero showed 8-ft beds often don't benefit the way 6-ft beds do,
but I don't have the paid access to their site to give the test results.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's my reasoning on I2C and SPI:
I2C uses its lines in a bidirectional sense. As such, this would
require a relatively complicated buffer circuit and 4 opto channels.
I2C is a relatively complicated and somewhat error-prone protocol.
Microchip's documentation, and examples of robust handling, is actually
pretty lacking. Actually, I have used Microchip hardware I2C on a
reliable link, but it's not the simplest protocol. Moreover, when I2C
was architected (not Microchip's work), it was confused by the fact that
no packet protocol was created. For example, there's no designated
packet header with sender ID, packet size, packet number, or a CRC value
at the end. Well you can certainly make one, and people do, but it
wildly lacks standardization. I2C's main benefit is support for
multiple senders on the same bus and there's no need for that here.
SPI would require at least 2 optos from the master and another 1 from
the slave. But realistically you need a Slave Select, Frame Select, or
Reset line, so it's 3 and 1. OK, these aren't necessarily deal-breakers
and do we need the LV side to have a free UART to talk RS232 to a PC
without resorting to a TQFP package or bit-banging. Another pro is
serial can only tolerate so much clock drift between the two xtals on
either side, and in this environment there are some wide temp shifts.
Really I doubt that would be a real problem though.
BTW, LV side could also work with CANbus. Well, it'd be nice anyways.
If there were a single thing to guarantee it would be a universal design
for a long time to come, CANbus is tops on the list. Only problem is no
chips in this family offer hardware CANbus and it can't be bit-banged
either. So unless another device exists with both CANbus and 3-phase
PWM, we have a design decision to make. Either drop the CANbus or drop
the 3-ph A/C drive variant.
Your list looks consistent with what I'm thinking. A few others:
HV side can measure current, if necessary, perhaps the current
waveform(s). Or at least a peak current. Even if it's a noncontact
Hall effect sensor, I'd put it on the HV side for insulation and simple
proximity reasons.
HV side may have thermal sensors on transistors. Insulation and
proximity reasons.
Danny
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
Interesting... what split of duties between micros are you talking
about exactly? A micro-controlled "power stage" with it's own PWM
whatnot?
I would prefer a "LV" and a "HV" split. Why would you want to use
RS232 for com between the two MCU anywho? I2C/SPI seems a bit better
suited for that task. Plus, then you can use the EUSART for "teminal"
chatter and the SSP for the inter-chip communication. This also
positions you into taking advantage of the endless selection of
I2C/SPI peripherals out there.
Let's say you have a HV board that has a 18F2431 on it, along with
some discreet hardware:
Duties:
Generate PWM signal(s) for gate driver(s)
Monitor HV line (battery pack & motor current & voltage)
Monitor any HV ground reference sensors
Respond to input from LV Board (set current power level, set current
limits, set voltage limits)
Send telemetry to LV Board
Send diagnostic info out RS232?
Now let's add a LV board that also has a 18F2431 on it (one processor
model makes dev a bit easier)
Duties:
Monitor TPS and other car frame ground reference sensors
Send operational commands to HV board
Send telemetry out RS232/USB/EVilBus
Perform other cool tasks (instrument panel outputs, valet mode,
yadada...)
You could put the power ramp calculations and other "drivability"
things on either one.
--- End Message ---
