EV Digest 6102
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Sources of ceramic heater elements?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) L.A. Electric Cars
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Heater Voltage Choice/Easy Install
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: speedometer replacement
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Heaters
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: speedometer replacement
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Sunrise: Midnight
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Lee your BMS anyone else interested?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: FS: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: FS: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Input requested on heater assembly
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Heaters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Input requested on heater assembly
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Vicor DC-DC Converter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Input requested on heater assembly
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV shows - crazy idea?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Lee your BMS anyone else interested?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Odyssey at SEMA video
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Motor control schematics
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) Re: Sunrise: Midnight
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Motor control schematics
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Sources of ceramic heater elements?
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The Cloud ETEK Metro comes to mind. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
> Have you ever seen a big motor made up of a bunch of small ones?
> No? Then it must be more efficient to build one bigger one.
> That said, a ring of 100 small motors would be cool, and I'd like to
> encourage you to build one so I can see it.
> Jack
>
> GWMobile wrote:
> > Does the efficiency of a motor go up or down with size?
> >
> > Just out of curiousity would a thouasand toy electric car motors linked
> > to a drive wheel by a rim gear on the wheel be more or less efficient
> > and or costly than a single large motor of similiar output running
> > through a tranny? (Wonder what the torque is of those tiny motorific
> > type toy car motors.)
> >
> > Keep in mind you could turn off the portion of tiny motors you aren't
> > using at any speed or acceleration mode.
> >
> >
> >
> > www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> > and the melting poles.
> >
> > www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go to a auto parts store, and have them look up car heaters which are
sometimes made by the same companies that make engine heaters.
NAPA may be the best ones, because independent auto parts store in you
location may not even get into car heaters.
My heater is a Cab Heater made by Phillips which has a U-bracket for
mounting under the dash. My is mounted way back, so you do not see it.
It's a 120 VAC 640 watt which comes off a separate on board circuit breaker
which is tap off the neutral, ground and one line of the 240 volt input plug
terminal block.
I only have to preheat the 640 watt for about 15 minutes at 30 below and the
cab will be up to 80 degrees. I than can transfer to a onboard 120 VAC 60
Hz inverter if needed.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "JS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 9:27 AM
Subject: Sources of ceramic heater elements?
> It has not been below freezing in a few years in Southern California,
> But I would like to preheat my conversion before taking my
> granddaughter to school. I prefer 220v, but can use 120v AC or DC.
>
> Where is a source of ceramic heater elements?
>
> John, in Sylmar, CA
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From the ET List. Just passing this on. Lawrence Rhodes..
. L.A. Electric Cars
Posted by: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED] cleannewworld
Date: Fri Nov 3, 2006 11:12 am (PST)
Cars & Good Music Go Hand in Hand
November 1st, 2006 by Danelle
http://www.eco-chick.com/?p=584
When I was growing up in the suburbs, I would just love to drive my little
car through out my neighborhood and sing to the radio. Now several years
later, I find that my urban generation y self stills likes the concept of
driving and hearing great music. I have started to research the various cars
on the market, for when I do decide to leave the city and can no longer
depend on public transportation; I want to find the most innovative
environmentally sound vehicle possible.
I came across this very cool company in L.A. called L.A. Electric Cars. They
are the only company in the US selling manufactured, road safe fully
electric vehicles. The company is a subdivision of Littleradio, a free
online radio station that plays hip music and various podcasts. Both
companies are actually hosting an office launch party in L.A. on Nov 4. If
you are in that part of town you should check it out.
Music and cars go hand in hand and I think it is brilliant what this team is
doing.
For More Information regarding LA Electric Cars, Little Radio or the BioBus
Tour, please contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Little Radio will embark on a 4-month US tour in January, promoting
alternative fuels and vehicles, along with new music and media. The tour
will cover more than 30,000 miles with stops at over 40 colleges, Sundance
Film Festival, Noise Pop Music Fest, SXSW, Winter Music Conference/M3,
Boston Marathon, Final Four and more.
Messages in this topic (1)
________________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My pack V will be 192-204 (16-17 batts) and I need to chose a heater
voltage. I have heard that some have used the 144 ceramic heater with
192V, would this be OK with my pack or do I need to go to a 220 and
would that then be underpowered?
The good news is that there is an empty filter slot in the blower and
I can install it with only removing the glove box and it will be easy
access! I also discovered my car has a hall pedal so I need to see if
it will work with the zilla, perhaps a second bonus..
Thanks,
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A down and dirty speedometer is a GPS. I got an Explorist 300 from
Walmart.com for 126 dollars. It is very accurate. These would be easy to
use on motorcycles and scooters or cars with the optional clamp holder.
Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 12:20 AM
Subject: Re: speedometer replacement
> Roland,
>
> I'm using an upgraded logi curtis 1209b.
> So I emailed cyberdyne to see if their speed sensor
> 8901 will work with the toyota...
> I wonder if that will also due the tach if not,
> Any suggestions on the tach inputs?
>
> --- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hello Mike,
> >
> > Cyberdyne Electronic Instrumentation has a
> > combination speedometer,
> > tachometer, odometer and trip odometer in a 3-3/8
> > diameter unit something
> > like the Link 10 E-meter.
> >
> > It will display 0 to 999 mph, 10,000 rpm, million
> > mile odometer and speed
> > calibration. It normally takes off the ignition
> > system of a 2,4,6 or 8
> > cylinder engine to measure the rpm and then
> > calibrate the speed according to
> > the rpm.
> >
> > The speed sensor of a controller circuit can
> > provided the data to a
> > tachometer. My tachometer is a Stewart Warner that
> > receives this data from
> > the Zilla which in turn receives the rpm data from a
> > motor rpm sender.
> >
> > The Cyberdyne unit may require a Cyberdyne speed
> > sensor if your controller
> > does not have a tach output circuit.
> >
> > Source is jegs.com
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 8:40 PM
> > Subject: speedometer replacement
> >
> >
> > > After tearing my dash board apart in 86 toyota pu,
> > I
> > > was wondering about the speedometer. It takes up
> > lots
> > > of space, and gives very little information.
> > > Is there a ev replacement part that would snap
> > into
> > > place for the speed and odometer?
> > > What options do I have?
> > >
> > > thanks
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
______________
> > > Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more
> > powerful email and get
> > > things done faster.
> > > (http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta)
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo!
Groups
> (http://groups.yahoo.com)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Search the archives for some of Lee Hart's postings about "dynamic
braking." Maybe in winter you could route the heat from the resistor
into the cabin
Bill Dennis
Can I generate heat when braking?
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Tom Gocze wrote:
Now that it is the heating season... It seems that
a startup resistor
with the rectactor controller solves this problem
without all the
hassle of lots of high cost silicon. Wouldn't it
make sense for
someone to package a three step (24/48/96V) or
perhaps 36/72/144V?)
system with a big starting resistor?
That's an interesting idea. A starting resistor
certainly can make a lot
of heat if you keep it in the circuit. Probably a
lot more than you want!
But since it's an all-or-nothing device, you need
some way to store the
large peak heat, and meter it out gradually as
needed. Perhaps you can
put the resistor in a water tank, so it heats water.
Then run the hot
water through the heater core to gradually cool it
off until the next
time you engage the resistor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________
______________
Check out the New Yahoo! Mail - Fire up a more powerful email and get things
done faster.
(http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:57 AM 11/5/2006, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
A down and dirty speedometer is a GPS. I got an Explorist 300 from
Walmart.com for 126 dollars. It is very accurate. These would be easy to
use on motorcycles and scooters or cars with the optional clamp holder.
That might work as long as you don't change speed quickly or
often. GPS tend to respond quite slowly.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jerry
is the prototype done?
when will we be able to come to florida and drive one?
how long after that will tooling be available?
keith
--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Bob, Lee, Dave and All,
> Welcome back to the e mail world Bob!!
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: Sunrise: Midnight
> >
> >
> >> Lee
> >>
> >> If you're thinking of ramping up to production
> levels,
> >have you started a list of possible
> >> regional dealers?
>
> It's going to be a while before either the
> Sunrise
> of Freedom EV will need dealers. In fact, I won't do
> dealers, but instead have small, local factories,
> locally
> owned to build the Freedom EV and let them go on
> from their,
> with their own EV's or my future 2 and 4wheel
> EV/sometimes
> hybrid designs. This I hope to unleash many EV
> builders of
> built as EV's, of which some will survive long term.
> But done correctly, there is a large profit
> in
> building low unit, composite, EV's I've found out,
> higher
> margins than most businesses even. It uses the FG
> boatbuilding low unit production model that keeps
> costs low,
> flexable.
> I'm not physiclly able to do production
> either. I'll
> just design, do start ups, get the production line
> running
> smoothly and let others do the real mass production.
>
>
> The East Coast has been somewhat under
> >represented. I'm sure Bob has brought
> >> this up already, but I think Connecticut would
> make an
> >excellent location for a dealership. We
> >> could offer the full size Sunrise II (name?) and
> Jerry's
> >commuter car. Ship us the rolling
> >> chassis, we build it to buyers spec and train the
> user to
> >plug in an extension cord. Local sales,
> >> service, etc. etc.
>
> There is a Freedom EV factory already slated
> for Ct
> if you can get the Laws not allowing them changed.
> I think they will once we tell thm we will
> build them
> in their state, increasing jobs they need. There are
> several
> others interested in factories also. But first we
> have to
> get it finished, debugged, ect, other factories are
> a ways
> off.
>
> >>
> >> Bob, when are you back in town? I'm 90% of the
> way to my
> >first EV grin, but I won't have the range
> >> to make it to Killingly right away. But soon....
> >>
> >> Dave Cover
> >> Hi Dave an' EVerybody;
> >
> > I'm baaaaack! At last, got in yesterday Am,
> exhausted
> >after a loooong drive from Chicago in the
> driving(not)
> >rain. Preii DO work underwater!
>
> Glad you made it home safe. I hate it when
> you run
> into bad traveling weather.
>
> Lee has covered alot of the
> >New Sunrise Project, I'll fill in a bit, to, as I
> recover
> >from mountains of Snail mail and E mails.it was fun
> being
> >with lee, driving to FLA and Minnesota. That's a
> long damn
> >way!Hope I didn't drive Lee nuts with my simplistic
> >controller ideas. Well, I learned that doing Solid
> State
> >controllers isn't easy!
>
> Lee does have a lot of things to teach. I
> learned a
> lot while you 2 were down.
>
> > You don't hafta make it to Killingly.
> Killingworth is
> >closer, and downhill for you, north to south! Maybe
> to the
> >next Club meeting? Got a Bad Boy I charge Bill
> Glickman's
> >VW so there is juice for EVerybody.Between the
> Freedom EV
> >and the Sunrise Project I see heartwarming progress
> for our
> >EV's. Looks like Jerry will have a Roll Out for
> Battery
> >Beach Burnout?
>
> Easily. Maybe have it ready to drag race.
> ;^D
> Can't wait to do the Auto-cross course they
> have too!
> Jerry Dycus
>
> >
> > Seeya
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call rates
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The reasons for manufacture are different than efficiency.
It may be possible that the huge demand for tiny motors makes their
retail price much less expensive per ft lb of torque because of more
competiton and source for smaller motors.
Thus it might be possible to cobble together more ft lbs of torque per $
using tiny motors than big ones.
On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 9:38 am, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
The Cloud ETEK Metro comes to mind. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2006 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
Have you ever seen a big motor made up of a bunch of small ones?
No? Then it must be more efficient to build one bigger one.
That said, a ring of 100 small motors would be cool, and I'd like to
encourage you to build one so I can see it.
Jack
GWMobile wrote:
> Does the efficiency of a motor go up or down with size?
>
> Just out of curiousity would a thouasand toy electric car motors
linked
> to a drive wheel by a rim gear on the wheel be more or less
efficient
> and or costly than a single large motor of similiar output running
> through a tranny? (Wonder what the torque is of those tiny motorific
> type toy car motors.)
>
> Keep in mind you could turn off the portion of tiny motors you
aren't
> using at any speed or acceleration mode.
>
>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes,
globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
>
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd like to get your controll board , Let us know when you do a run .
steve clunn
I am really at the point where I need to just "shoot the engineer, and
ship it!" I have several people who have been very patient, and just
need to go ahead and order the boards for them, saving any further
improvements for the next go-around.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Willmon wrote:
Lee,
I am under the impression these modules are not constant power devices.
No; they *are* constant output power devices. They try to regulate the
output voltage, no matter what input current it happens to require. For
example, if you have a 200 watt 28v module, it can deliver 200w/28v =
7.14 amps continuously.
It will hold the output voltage constant with loads from 0% to 125% of
this 7.14 amps, i.e. 0 to 8.92 amps. If the load tries to draw more
current, the Vicor reduces its output voltage so the current won't go
over 8.92 amps.
if it is not a constant power device then why does the input current
go up if the input voltage goes down.
If you don't change the output load, but lower the input voltage, then
the input current must go up to keep supplying the same output power.
The higher input current causes it to run hotter. If you try to get full
output power with reduced input voltage, the module will overheat and
eventually fail.
it seems like they protect the units from this by having the low
voltage cut. Why would you advise defeating that safety?
Because, in this thread, he was going to use a 28v output module at 14v
output. The current limit for the output remains the same. So, his "full
load" is only half the power; 14v x 8.92 amps = 125 watts. Therefore,
you can allow a lower minimum input voltage.
He could trace out the input undervoltage detection circuit, and modify
it for a lower threshold. But it's easier to just cut the GateIn pin,
and use some other method to prevent the module from destroying itself
from too low an input voltage.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Lee,
Do you know if the 26L module (300V in 28V nominal out)
when turned down to 14V out delivers twice the current
so still delivers the rated 200W or does it stay at the
7A or so that it can deliver at 28V?
No, it won't. The current limit is set internally, and can't be changed.
It will still deliver a maximum of 7 amps continuous (8.9 amps max) at
either 28v or 14v.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
Non-EE question: How does power generated on the CONTROLLED circuit
of a relay affect the CONTROLLING circuit? If you cut power to the
solenoid of the relay, how does the fan (generator) keep the solenoid
engaged? Or am I overlooking something obvious?
Suppose you connect your heater control relay's coil directly across
your heater blower motor. When the fan comes on, the heater comes on.
When the fan goes off, the relay goes off and the heat stops. What could
be simpler?
But, you'll find there's a problem. Relays are built to be pure on/off
devices. Apply full power to the coil, and it pulls in. Remove all power
from the coil, and it turns off.
But if you slowly apply power to a relay coil, you will observe that it
slowly pulls in. Typically, the armature (moving part) doesn't move
until you reach about 50% of rated voltage. Then it moves part-way, so
the contacts barely touch, and stops. You have to raise the coil voltage
a little more, to 60-70% of rated voltage, before the armature pulls in
the rest of the way, and seats in its fully-on position.
When you slowly remove power from the coil, the reverse happens. The
armature stays fully-on until the voltage falls to about 10-20% of rated
voltage. Then it slowly releases.
The relay's contact ratings are based on fast turn-on and turn-off of
the contacts. When they open and close slowly, their voltage and current
rating is much less. The contacts will arc and burn, and eventually
stick and weld.
Remember the motor directly across the relay coil? When you first switch
it on, there is usually a resistor in series with the fan, to control
its speed. It takes time for the motor to come up to speed; maybe a
second. During this time, its voltage starts near zero and ramps up, as
the motor speed comes up. So the relay coil sees a slowly increasing
voltage.
And when you turn off the fan, it free-wheels for a couple seconds.
During this time, it is acting as a generator. The relay coil has a
slowly-decreasing voltage across it.
So, you have created the worst possible situation for the relay's
contacts. They can not switch anywhere near their full rated load, and
will fail early.
The best solution is to switch the relay with a separate switch; one
pole for the fan, one for the relay. Now the relay snaps on and off cleanly.
Next best is to add a diode in series with the fan, so it can't generate
current to hold the relay in. This won't solve the turn-on problem, but
fans usually come up to speed a lot faster than they slow down, you you
might get by with it.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mike golub wrote:
Can I generate heat when braking?
Yes. You could connect the starting resistor directly across the motor
while braking. It will act as a generator, and dump its power into the
resistor as heat. This is called dynamic braking.
The challenge is that with a fixed resistor and fixed motor gearing, you
get a fixed amount of braking; i.e. on/off braking. Not very smooth or
controlled.
Large EVs that use dynamic braking (like trains and buses) have large
switchable resistor grids, where they can adjust the resistance to suit
the motor rpm and amount of braking needed. It doesn't take long before
such a system is about as complicated as a real regen setup.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee wrote:
One concern I have is that the blower is a PM motor;
it also works fine as a generator...
Cor van de Water wrote:
So, use two separate contacts, cutting power to the
relay independent from the fan's generated voltage?
That works. You can also add a diode in series with the motor, so
current can flow into it, but can't flow back out.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Willmon wrote:
The down side to running without the control as Lee alluded to is that
there is no control on the output current as the input voltage sags.
In my case the V300A15 module can put out ~40A and I will only be
pulling ~18A with headlights, heater fan and accessories.
The Vicors regulate the output voltage. The output current will be
whatever the load draws at that voltage.
The Vicors have an internal current limit, which on the modules over 5v
will limit the maximum current to about 105%-125% of rated current. If
you apply too heavy a load, the voltage sags until the current is within
this range. So, the *output* is self-protecting.
But when you reduce the input voltage, the input current has to go up as
it tries to maintain its full power output. This high input current
causes the module to run hotter. It will fail if asked to do this for
very long. Vicor specs it at 75% of minimum rated voltage for 1 second
(170v for a 300v nominal module). They will actually last several
minutes at full load under this condition (from expensive experience)!
What I was suggesting was not to change the Vicor output; but to change
its input. Vicors have two input pins; GateIn and GateOut. GateIn is
normally left open; the module operates normally, at its full rated
power, with a regulated voltage and current limited output.
If you short GateIn to Input-, it turns the module off. This is how the
undervoltage shutdown works; they sense the input voltage, and hold
GateIn low until it rises above the minimum spec. If you cut the wire to
the GateIn pin, then the module starts working immediately upon
application of input voltage, even if this voltage is too low. As stated
above, it will work on low voltages, but will overheat if you try to
draw full load current at reduced input voltage.
There are several ways to protect the module.
- Pick an fuse that will blow if the input current stays too high
for too long, indicating excessive output load for that input
voltage.
- Pick an output fuse or circuit breaker, to prevent drawing too
much output current.
- Put a temperature sensor on the module, to shut it down (short
GateIn to Input-) if it gets hot. This isn't as good because it
may respond too slowly to work.
- Add circuitry to trim the output voltage down when the input
voltage is low, tailored to prevent high output current with low
input voltage. For example, the 28v module being discussed in this
thread would be used at 14v, so it never delivers more than half
power.
maybe the uc3906
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/uc3906.pdf
I still can't believe it costs that much...
I've used this chip. It's neat -- a complete lead-acid battery charger
controller. A bit tricky for people with a digital mindset, as it is an
analog part. It's expensive because sales volumes are low, and there is
no second source (no competition). The main drawback is that it has no
safety timers. It won't shut off if the battery stays too long in any
particular mode.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sunday, November 5, 2006, at 04:10 AM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Lee wrote:
One concern I have is that the blower is a PM motor;
that means it also works fine as a generator. When
you cut power to it, it takes a while to spin down.
During this time, it *generates* power. This power
will hold your heater relay on. The relay will
s-l-o-w-l-y drop out as the fans spins down. This
causes an excessively slow turnoff time; the relay
contacts will burn and arc, and can fail shorted.
If this happens, nothing will turn the heater off.
So, use two separate contacts, cutting power to the
relay independent from the fan's generated voltage?
Cor van de Water
I think this is what Nissan did. As soon as the fan switch goes to the
off position the circuit connecting the blower motor to the blower
signal relay opens. So voltage created from the blower motor does not
have a path to the relay I am using in my heater circuit.
Thank you to all that have been following up on my questions/concerns.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good idea? Crazy talk? I welcome the lists input!
Another thing you could have would be some hand outs people could down load
and give out at EV Shows . Could have a list of upcoming shows and info on
how others can put together a show. People who are thinking about having a
EV rally or show , will find it allot easier that all the other ev related
stuff . As most have experienced "people " Think EV's are a great idea and
will be happy for you to show them off , just don't try to make them buy one
:-) . Make a list of the top 10 places in your town where some kind of ev
show could take place , then just ask .
Steve Clunn
www.grassrootsev.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 4:33 PM
Subject: RE: Lee your BMS anyone else interested?
Lee,
I was wondering about features of the balancer.
You mentioned that it took you a while to find out
that you had a bad battery, because the balancer
would continuously "prop it up" from the other 11
to keep it going. How did you find out one was bad?
It may have merit to indicate a (yellow) light when
the balancer is spending more than twice the average
time on a battery, to have an early indication that
one or more batteries are going south.
And does your BMS indicate (red) when a battery goes
below 10.5V to avoid damaging it, even though the BMS
is propping it up, it cannot supply the full drive
current. In extreme cases, a battery could reverse
and damage the BMS.
With the "idiot light" on the dash telling that a
battery is below 10.5V the driver can ease the foot
on the accelerator and limp to a safe place without
breaking anything.
In the case where one weak battery is the limit, the EV
would even be driveable after waiting a bit, because the
balancer will re-charge the weak battery and you can go
a little further again, until home or the 10.5V is reached
for all batteries, then you need to bring the plug to the
EV or tow it.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 12:05 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Lee your BMS anyone else interested?
Don Blazer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was looking at your BMS with NiMH batteries in mind now. You might
not remember but a while back I was trying to get you to do a bulk
order for use on AGM batteries. I would still be willing to buy in
quantity for the best prices and sell at the quantity price break
to all who is interested in making one.
Don, you may have meant to send this to me directly, but since it went
to the EV list, I'll answer it here.
Yes, I have been working on a new version of my Battery Balancer for
over a year now. Unfortunately, it is a home project, and so has a low
priority compared to "real work" and the "honey do" list.
At present, I have the new Relay board design done, and can order them
any time. I have the new Control board about 75% done. But there are
some loose ends that I can't help but keep tinkering with.
Specifically, the old control board used an external digital multimeter
with isolated RS-232 output to measure battery voltage and current. They
cost $50-$100. I'm experimenting with a cheaper on-board circuit to do
this (since everyone is obsessed with cost).
I am really at the point where I need to just "shoot the engineer, and
ship it!" I have several people who have been very patient, and just
need to go ahead and order the boards for them, saving any further
improvements for the next go-around.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some glimpses of the manufacturing process. They even saw one in half
with a band saw! Also, he claims these batteries last for 12 years.
I wonder if we can get that in writing?
http://www.nmratv.com/index.php?stream=http://www.streetlegaltv.com/video/sema/wed-sltv-odyssey.flv&playlist=1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Motor control schematics.
Hello, I'm new to building EV's, reasonably experienced with electronics
and particularly programming, but need a refresher on motor control techniques.
I would appreciate somm guidance as to how best to drive my motor. It's a
50V 15kW ex utility delivery vehicle (milk float)drive motor, DC and series
wound.
I would like to be able to write software for PWM , with PID control, but am
a bit shakey when it comes to things like regen. braking and some
schematics or advice would be helpful. As I understand it I can disconnect
the field
coils from the armature and excite them seperately and doing this means I
can tune the motor for best efficiency according to it's speed.
What I'm wondering about is if it's just a case of stacking enough power
mosfets together and switching them with PWM in order to adjust speed. I can
get
80V 110A mosfets easily.
I also wonder about using a small petrol driven generator to excite the
field coils in order to reduce the consumption for the batteries and so
increase
range, does anyone have experience of doing this ?
Thanks in advance,
Chris Barron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Keith,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Sunrise: Midnight
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2006 10:57:16 -0800 (PST)
>jerry
>is the prototype done?
Not yet. Bob and lee were suposoe to help a coule das
with me, instead I helpped get them back on time, getting
their truck fixed, the Sunrise loaded. But it's slowly
coming together, finished the last structural part today,
now just have to bolt everything on, finish the suspension,
doors.
>when will we be able to come to florida and drive one?
Within a month hopefully.
>how long after that will tooling be available?
You mean so you can produce them? If so we need to
talk about that, no problem but the devil is in the details.
Most of the tooling, except for some patterns, is
already made. I can make more tooling easily, quickly but
want to debug the Freedom, it's production line first,
before starting new production lines sometime next yr. You
would have a great market there though.
I'll be building Mark's and maybe another one over
school Christmas break if that's a good time for you.
Jerry
>
>keith
>--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Bob, Lee, Dave and All,
>> Welcome back to the e mail world Bob!!
>>
>> ----- Original Message Follows -----
>> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >----- Original Message -----
>> >From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >Subject: Re: Sunrise: Midnight
>> >
>> >
>> >> Lee
>> >>
>> >> If you're thinking of ramping up to production
>> levels,
>> >have you started a list of possible
>> >> regional dealers?
>>
>> It's going to be a while before either the
>> Sunrise
>> of Freedom EV will need dealers. In fact, I won't do
>> dealers, but instead have small, local factories,
>> locally
>> owned to build the Freedom EV and let them go on
>> from their,
>> with their own EV's or my future 2 and 4wheel
>> EV/sometimes
>> hybrid designs. This I hope to unleash many EV
>> builders of
>> built as EV's, of which some will survive long term.
>> But done correctly, there is a large profit
>> in
>> building low unit, composite, EV's I've found out,
>> higher
>> margins than most businesses even. It uses the FG
>> boatbuilding low unit production model that keeps
>> costs low,
>> flexable.
>> I'm not physiclly able to do production
>> either. I'll
>> just design, do start ups, get the production line
>> running
>> smoothly and let others do the real mass production.
>>
>>
>> The East Coast has been somewhat under
>> >represented. I'm sure Bob has brought
>> >> this up already, but I think Connecticut would
>> make an
>> >excellent location for a dealership. We
>> >> could offer the full size Sunrise II (name?) and
>> Jerry's
>> >commuter car. Ship us the rolling
>> >> chassis, we build it to buyers spec and train the
>> user to
>> >plug in an extension cord. Local sales,
>> >> service, etc. etc.
>>
>> There is a Freedom EV factory already slated
>> for Ct
>> if you can get the Laws not allowing them changed.
>> I think they will once we tell thm we will
>> build them
>> in their state, increasing jobs they need. There are
>> several
>> others interested in factories also. But first we
>> have to
>> get it finished, debugged, ect, other factories are
>> a ways
>> off.
>>
>> >>
>> >> Bob, when are you back in town? I'm 90% of the
>> way to my
>> >first EV grin, but I won't have the range
>> >> to make it to Killingly right away. But soon....
>> >>
>> >> Dave Cover
>> >> Hi Dave an' EVerybody;
>> >
>> > I'm baaaaack! At last, got in yesterday Am,
>> exhausted
>> >after a loooong drive from Chicago in the
>> driving(not)
>> >rain. Preii DO work underwater!
>>
>> Glad you made it home safe. I hate it when
>> you run
>> into bad traveling weather.
>>
>> Lee has covered alot of the
>> >New Sunrise Project, I'll fill in a bit, to, as I
>> recover
>> >from mountains of Snail mail and E mails.it was fun
>> being
>> >with lee, driving to FLA and Minnesota. That's a
>> long damn
>> >way!Hope I didn't drive Lee nuts with my simplistic
>> >controller ideas. Well, I learned that doing Solid
>> State
>> >controllers isn't easy!
>>
>> Lee does have a lot of things to teach. I
>> learned a
>> lot while you 2 were down.
>>
>> > You don't hafta make it to Killingly.
>> Killingworth is
>> >closer, and downhill for you, north to south! Maybe
>> to the
>> >next Club meeting? Got a Bad Boy I charge Bill
>> Glickman's
>> >VW so there is juice for EVerybody.Between the
>> Freedom EV
>> >and the Sunrise Project I see heartwarming progress
>> for our
>> >EV's. Looks like Jerry will have a Roll Out for
>> Battery
>> >Beach Burnout?
>>
>> Easily. Maybe have it ready to drag race.
>> ;^D
>> Can't wait to do the Auto-cross course they
>> have too!
>> Jerry Dycus
>>
>> >
>> > Seeya
>> >
>> > Bob
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>___________________________________________________________
>_________________________ Low, Low, Low Rates! Check out
>Yahoo! Messenger's cheap PC-to-Phone call rates
>(http://voice.yahoo.com)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you the OSMC Chris?
Mike
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Motor control schematics.
> Hello, I'm new to building EV's, reasonably experienced with
> electronics
> and particularly programming, but need a refresher on motor control
> techniques.
> I would appreciate somm guidance as to how best to drive my motor.
> It's a
> 50V 15kW ex utility delivery vehicle (milk float)drive motor, DC and
> series
> wound.
>
> I would like to be able to write software for PWM , with PID control,
> but am
> a bit shakey when it comes to things like regen. braking and some
> schematics or advice would be helpful. As I understand it I can
> disconnect the field
> coils from the armature and excite them seperately and doing this
> means I
> can tune the motor for best efficiency according to it's speed.
>
> What I'm wondering about is if it's just a case of stacking enough
> power
> mosfets together and switching them with PWM in order to adjust
> speed. I can get
> 80V 110A mosfets easily.
>
> I also wonder about using a small petrol driven generator to excite
> the
> field coils in order to reduce the consumption for the batteries and
> so increase
> range, does anyone have experience of doing this ?
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Chris Barron
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For preheating, why not get a little electric heater at Walmart and plug it in?
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sunday, November 5, 2006 11:27:47 AM
Subject: Sources of ceramic heater elements?
It has not been below freezing in a few years in Southern California,
But I would like to preheat my conversion before taking my
granddaughter to school. I prefer 220v, but can use 120v AC or DC.
Where is a source of ceramic heater elements?
John, in Sylmar, CA
--- End Message ---
