EV Digest 6104
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Pickup truck drag
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
by "gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Heaters
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Odyssey at SEMA video
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Heaters
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor control schematics
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Pusher Trailer
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Odyssey at SEMA video
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Pusher Trailer
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) It's ALIVE!
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen the same thing on some of my messages, David. On Friday I got a
message I'd sent on Tuesday or Wednesday. The odd thing is, a message from
earlier and later went through on time.
I'm wondering if some messages might have a content that's being picked up
as Spam... and then later being released.
> So it appears that metis.sjsu.edu held your message for 2 hours (not sure
> why) but nothing like 2 days. Your messages are being distributed to the
> list in a timely manner. However, your own mail server may be returning
> some mail to the SJSU listproc, causing it to put you on a 48 hour delay.
> This can happen when your mail server is overloaded, as with a flood of
> spam, for example.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dave,
You have to program your Hairball. The data in the Zilla may not be correct
for you setup.
I also have a Z1K with 180V battery pack, so the programing may be close to
yours.
The Low Battery Volt (LBV) was not right for me which the controller would
not run.
Otmar at Café Electric said to set it up as follows:
BATTERY MENU
a)BA, v)LBV, I)LBVI
300 150 157
Note: The BA (Battery Amp) is kept low for
a new battery pack break in. Can
change it latter to the maximum battery
rating.
The LBV would be about 145 and the
LBVI would be 150 for your 172V pack.
MOTOR MENU
a) Amp, v) Volt, I) RA
800 429 700
Note: Keep these higher than the data in
the Battery Menu. These ratings are
limit anyway by the battery.
REVERSED AND PARALLEL LIMITS
r) RV, c) PA, p) PV
157 800 180
Note: For your 172 pack, the PV would be
172 and RV would be 150
SPEED MENU
Rev Limits
l)Norm, r)Rev, x)Max
5000 1500 6000
OPTIONS MENU
a) Off b) Off c) Off d) On
e) On f) Off g) Off h) Off
I) Off j) Off k) On l) Off
m) Off n) Off o) Off p) On
Note: p) must be on for a Z1K.
a) and c) is on and j) and k) is off for
for tach display or
a) and k) is on and c) is off for using a
tach as a motor amp meter
This is the minimum option 1 input for a
EV without parallel motors and reversing
contactors.
Then clear out all the Diagnostic Trouble Codes which displays as 1111 to
1411 numbers.
Roland
c) is off
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 2:33 PM
Subject: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
> OK, I'm real close but I'm at a roadblock. When I tried to turn it on for
> the first time, I got
> nothing. The contactors didn't pull in and the only light on the unit is
> the error light. I then
> hooked up an indicator light to the Chk Eng light out. When I turn on the
> key, the indicator light
> comes on and stays on. When I plug the shorting plug into the serial port
> for 4 seconds to read
> the DTCs, nothing happens. @#$%^&*
>
> I have a Z1k EHV and a 172v pack. I have power to the Zilla and the key
> switch and start
> connections are seperate and work correctly. I do not have anything
> connected to the AC Plug In.
>
> I have not tried hooking up my computer to the serial port, but this is
> next. Any help would be
> GREATLY appreciated!
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 5, 2006, at 3:48 PM, Dave Cover wrote:
One more piece of data. I hooked up a Palm and it showed the following
error. I don't know what it
means, but it's a clue;
1231 Propulsion pack open, no contactor drop, and controller is not
responding
I know the Zilla can do strange things if hooked to a pack voltage
below its rating. If you are wiring this up to the full pack that
shouldn't be the issue (minimum voltage seems to be 72v, even for an
EHV.)
Reading through Otmar's error codes I didn't see one (though I read
through them real fast) that indicated no precharge. Perhaps if the
precharge is not connected it will show as pack open. I know a high
power controller should never engage the main contactor without being
precharged - ask Plasma Boy about that sometime :-)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Look at your LBV, it may be set wrong for your battery pack. Mine was set
too high when it came for my battery pack. Low Battery Volt will not allow
the controller to come on.
Also your ignition switch circuit is on all the time, but your start circuit
should be on for a short time, not on all the time. Should be a momentary
switch.
If all fails, E-Mail Otmar.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 4:48 PM
Subject: Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
> One more piece of data. I hooked up a Palm and it showed the following
> error. I don't know what it
> means, but it's a clue;
>
> 1231 Propulsion pack open, no contactor drop, and controller is not
> responding
>
> --- Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > OK, I'm real close but I'm at a roadblock. When I tried to turn it on
> > for the first time, I got
> > nothing. The contactors didn't pull in and the only light on the unit is
> > the error light. I then
> > hooked up an indicator light to the Chk Eng light out. When I turn on
> > the key, the indicator
> > light
> > comes on and stays on. When I plug the shorting plug into the serial
> > port for 4 seconds to read
> > the DTCs, nothing happens. @#$%^&*
> >
> > I have a Z1k EHV and a 172v pack. I have power to the Zilla and the key
> > switch and start
> > connections are seperate and work correctly. I do not have anything
> > connected to the AC Plug In.
> >
> > I have not tried hooking up my computer to the serial port, but this is
> > next. Any help would be
> > GREATLY appreciated!
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Roland. I had set some of those values but was not sure about all of
them. I'll set the
rest and see how it goes. Fingers crossed.
Dave Cover
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Dave,
>
> You have to program your Hairball. The data in the Zilla may not be correct
> for you setup.
>
> I also have a Z1K with 180V battery pack, so the programing may be close to
> yours.
>
> The Low Battery Volt (LBV) was not right for me which the controller would
> not run.
>
> Otmar at Café Electric said to set it up as follows:
>
> BATTERY MENU
> a)BA, v)LBV, I)LBVI
> 300 150 157
>
> Note: The BA (Battery Amp) is kept low for
> a new battery pack break in. Can
> change it latter to the maximum battery
> rating.
>
> The LBV would be about 145 and the
> LBVI would be 150 for your 172V pack.
>
> MOTOR MENU
> a) Amp, v) Volt, I) RA
> 800 429 700
>
> Note: Keep these higher than the data in
> the Battery Menu. These ratings are
> limit anyway by the battery.
>
> REVERSED AND PARALLEL LIMITS
>
> r) RV, c) PA, p) PV
> 157 800 180
>
> Note: For your 172 pack, the PV would be
> 172 and RV would be 150
>
> SPEED MENU
>
> Rev Limits
> l)Norm, r)Rev, x)Max
> 5000 1500 6000
>
> OPTIONS MENU
>
> a) Off b) Off c) Off d) On
>
> e) On f) Off g) Off h) Off
>
> I) Off j) Off k) On l) Off
>
> m) Off n) Off o) Off p) On
>
>
> Note: p) must be on for a Z1K.
>
> a) and c) is on and j) and k) is off for
> for tach display or
>
> a) and k) is on and c) is off for using a
> tach as a motor amp meter
>
> This is the minimum option 1 input for a
> EV without parallel motors and reversing
> contactors.
>
> Then clear out all the Diagnostic Trouble Codes which displays as 1111 to
> 1411 numbers.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
> c) is off
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 2:33 PM
> Subject: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
>
>
> > OK, I'm real close but I'm at a roadblock. When I tried to turn it on for
> > the first time, I got
> > nothing. The contactors didn't pull in and the only light on the unit is
> > the error light. I then
> > hooked up an indicator light to the Chk Eng light out. When I turn on the
> > key, the indicator light
> > comes on and stays on. When I plug the shorting plug into the serial port
> > for 4 seconds to read
> > the DTCs, nothing happens. @#$%^&*
> >
> > I have a Z1k EHV and a 172v pack. I have power to the Zilla and the key
> > switch and start
> > connections are seperate and work correctly. I do not have anything
> > connected to the AC Plug In.
> >
> > I have not tried hooking up my computer to the serial port, but this is
> > next. Any help would be
> > GREATLY appreciated!
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's an example of grouping some small R/C motors. It's similar to an
approach that I plan on trying for a lightweight 3-wheeler (3 motors per
wheel). This assembly is expensive but the motors are not. I think
something similar can be made for a reasonable cost.
http://www.hackerbrushless.com/motors_c50quad.shtml
gary
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Fowler
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 4:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
Give it a go I say.
Start with a small buggy (powerwheels?) or scooter.
How would you mount the motors?
Inside the rim? Driveshaft? How heavy would the mounting have to be?
How they would drive the wheel?
Where do you get a toothed inner rim of the right tooth pitch and
diameter?
How does it work with suspension?
How would you power the motors?
Parallel? Series? Switchable combination?
(8 motors gives 1S8P, 2S4P, 4S2P, 8S1P combos)
How heavy will the wiring need to be?
Where will the wires run?
Do you care about a motor failure?
How does that affect the rest of the system?
How do you detect a failure?
How easily can you replace a failed unit?
The R/C market is massively larger than the EV market.
If you can find a way to effectively use a large number of mass produced
RC parts to give EV levels of power and torque (similar to what the
battery guys are doing with A123s) then the sky is the limit.
Have fun, and let us know how it goes.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of GWMobile
> Sent: Monday, 6 November 2006 6:05 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: A hundred tiny toy car motors vs one big one.
>
>
> The reasons for manufacture are different than efficiency.
>
> It may be possible that the huge demand for tiny motors makes their
> retail price much less expensive per ft lb of torque because of more
> competiton and source for smaller motors.
>
> Thus it might be possible to cobble together more ft lbs of
> torque per $
> using tiny motors than big ones.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sunday, November 5, 2006, at 06:40 PM, John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
<snip>
When ceramic elements started to show up in the first 'cube type'
desktop heaters and when EV suppliers started to offer better quality
ceramic cores with less restrictive heat fin grids so the car's blower
could push more air through the core, I switched to this type of
heater and have never looked back.
See Ya......John Wayland
Is the heater element that EV Parts sells a ceramic element?
Assuming yes, what about it is ceramic?
John O'C
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having stood in that very space in front of the display in the video just a
couple of days ago I did ask them about cycle life. Their materails all say 400
cycles to 100% DOD, 500 cycles to 80% DOD and they told me about 800 cycles to
50% DOD. The group 31 size battery has a 1 hour rate of 73.0ah, but this is
their "extended discharge at 77F (25C) to 10.02V."
Curiously they used to recommend a very certain model of battery tender to
charge their batteries, but their charge curve changed a few years ago so they
quit recommending them. They now have their own line of charger. I know it was
mentioned here before they recommend a high initial current for recharging, and
the smallest charger they have listed for the Group 31 size battery is a 40 amp
output one. It shows a constant current to 14.7 volts, then 4-6 hours
absorbtion charge and then trickle at 13.6 volts.
I want a set!
I could not find the cycle life of these batteries,
which is the single most important selection
criterium between batteries when judging price/mile
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight - Sold
06 Civic IMA
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
We have the perfect Group for you. Check out the handy changes to Yahoo! Groups.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 7kw is only of the alternator-inverter itself, it does take in account
of all the mechanical driving of all the over accessories.
This resistor is rated for over 100KW but there may not be that much power
coming from the motor at that time.
Anyway, this accessory drive unit acts just like a compression braking of a
engine.
Maybe the resistor becoming red hot increases it resistance when hot, but
still it did not slow me down as much as it did with all the accessories
running.
One note to remember, is on this long coast down, the motor and battery
amperes are a zero, but all the accessories are running and generating power
for my heating system and other units which normally would take power from
the batteries using separate motor driven units.
I can also park this EV on a incline, with the transmission in reversed
gear, which gives me 34:1 gear ratio, holds this EV from rolling.
Disconnect from the accessory drive, and it will roll freely. So there is a
lot of mechanical resistance which I want on icy streets.
Also, the alternator-inverter does not like to run backwards, as there is a
lot of magnetic resistance there, so there is another thing to consider.
There was a 1/2 inch of ice on the streets yesterday and I had no problem of
driving my EV, while a lot of ICE vehicles were slipping and sliding, as I
would be if I did not have the accessory drive connected.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 4:56 PM
Subject: RE: Heaters
> Hi Roland,
>
> Maybe I am misreading your post, it looks like the math
> does not work out.
>
> You say that you run a 100kW resistor red hot but cannot
> get decent braking?
> Then with the installation of accessories that add up to
> 7kW you will get enough braking?
>
> Maybe the issue was that the 100kW resistor needed to be
> water-cooled and you ran it in free air, but I cannot see
> how a 100kW resistor of 0.5 Ohm would give less braking,
> when the motor is delivering a decent voltage (and it
> should at 85 MPH) with your 180V system I am guessing that
> the motor may have delivered over 100V, which would result
> in more than 200A in the resistor, or 20 kW.
> That should be more than 3 times the braking power of
> the 7kW accessories.
>
> This puzzles me...
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 8:44 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Heaters
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 9:10 AM
> Subject: Re: Heaters
>
>
> >
> > In a message dated 11/5/2006 2:13:11 AM Mountain Standard Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > Are you OK freezing on the freeway coasting at constant speed?
> > Just some thoughts,>>>>
>
>
> It would cook me if I used it as a heater. Anyway, the resistor was so
> large, that I could not install it inside the EV.
>
> When I pick up my EV call Transformer I from Troy, Michingan, they gave me
> a
>
> lot of parts to experiment on here in Montana. I had to hang this
> resistor
> which is large as a car radiator of over 100KW and 0.5 ohm.
>
> I drove a very steep long hill that had to be over 30 degrees. To get up
> this hill, I would roller coast the EV to up to 70 mph which would keep
> the
> motor ampere below 600 amps. Coming down this hill without REGEN braking,
> this EV a 7850 lbs at the time would get up to 85 mph and have a run out
> of
> another 2 miles and still would be doing 50 mph at my exit.
>
> Now with the resistor switch into the circuit, the resistor turn red hot
> and
>
> I still did about 80 mph down the hill and was still doing 35 mph at the
> exit.
>
> This did not help at all which would become very dangerous in the winter
> time, when this hill become glare ice.
>
> So I install A GMC accessory unit which is mounted on a aluminum plate
> which
>
> normally bolts on to a GMC diesel engine. This is driven off the pilot
> shaft of the motor.
>
> One unit that is driven with this accessory drive is a Delco
> alternator-inverter unit that supplies up to 7 KW of 120 volts 60 HZ. Now
> when I come down this hill, I have the inverter unit running three heater
> units at 2.4 kw, power steering, two water pumps, a power steering unit,
> vacuum pump and even a A/C unit if its gets too hot, the EV will maintain
> speed and not increase it.
>
> The worst car I had coming down this hill was a VW bug, which would
> actually
>
> slow down this hill and would have to give its some gas to keep up the
> speed
>
> because it had a very low axle ratio.
>
> Roland
> >
> >
> >
> > As the builder of Sparky, the Manitou High School project EV VW bug
> > states
> > in the EVAlbum:
> > "Heater: Hat, coat and gloves"....
> > After a few decades of riding motorcycles in Colorado year 'round, that
> > is
> > downright comfortable!
> >
> > Matt Parkhouse
> > Colorado Springs, CO
> > BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I had the same code the first time I tried starting up my Zilla. Go
through and check with a test light (not a volt meter!) your 12 volt hook ups
to the hairball. First put the ground lead on the positive post of your 12 volt
source and check the ground from the hairball, then put the clamp to ground and
go through and check the other connections. You need sli power, ground, key on,
and start plus the precharge wires to either side of the contactor in order to
at least get basic functionality. Also make sure the network cable from the
hairball to the controller is connected.
When I first hooked mine up I had the key on and start hooked in to some of
the existing car wireing that went through the computer (which was still there
for the speedometer). The computer naturally freaked out without anything
hooked to it and only put out a little bit of a sense voltage, which I read as
12.2 volts with my meter, but it was only after I had sent the hairball back to
Otmar and he checked it out and said nothing was wrong that I realized this
when I couldn't find my meter and used the test light instead. I wired it up
directly to the key switch and magically the car came alive. Go figure ehh? I'm
still embarrased I couldn't figure that out on my own.
Whatever you do, under no circumstances put power to the contactor coil while
it's hooked to the hairball, you'll blow it out (another woops on my part). And
make sure you have the included diode in parrallel with the contactor coil, if
you don't have this it will work once and then you'll blow out the contactor
drive circuit. Although sometimes they can be annoying there's a ton of safteys
built in to the Zilla package, they're there for a reason.
I'd also recommend going back and reading the Zilla manual again, there were
some things I missed myself in the beginning. If everything checks out also try
rebooting it by disconnecting all power for a few seconds and hooking it back
up.
One more piece of data. I hooked up a Palm and it showed the following error.
I don't know what it means, but it's a clue; 1231 Propulsion pack open, no
contactor drop, and controller is not responding --- Dave Cover <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> wrote: > OK, I'm real close but I'm at a roadblock. When I tried
to turn it on for the first time, I got > nothing. The contactors didn't
pull in and the only light on the unit is the error light. I then > hooked
up an indicator light to the Chk Eng light out. When I turn on the key, the
indicator > light > comes on and stays on. When I plug the shorting plug into
the serial port for 4 seconds to read > the DTCs, nothing happens. @#$%^&*
> > I have a Z1k EHV and a 172v pack. I have power to the Zilla and the key
switch and start > connections are seperate and work correctly. I do not have
anything connected to the AC Plug In. > > I have not tried hooking up my
computer to the serial port, but this is
next. Any help would be > GREATLY appreciated! > > Thanks > > Dave
Cover > >
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight - Sold
06 Civic IMA
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Get your email and see which of your friends are online - Right on the new
Yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What do you want to run? A roadable car?
A 50v supply would not be very practical for running a car. The
current would have to be phenomenally high and I2R losses would be too much.
The challenge with a controller is the current levels are quite high.
Common PCB construction and common terminals will overheat. Extra thick
PCBs, busbars, etc.
PID control is generally not used AFAIK, because the throttle input is
not a target speed anyways. They seem to just have a PWM period based
on throttle input, maybe a current limit to foldback the PWM period if
it is exceeded.
Regen doesn't work with a series-wound DC motor, as I understand it this
is because the generated voltage will be too low. Separately exciting
the field is an ok idea but it's complicated because the required
current is quite high.
We've been through a gasoline generator "range extender"/"hybrid". It
will generally require a HUGE generator to keep up with the vehicle's
needs. A smaller generator would allow you to charge all day in the
parking lot. But the real issue is that all gasoline/diesel generators
are less efficient (something on the order of 30%-50% less) and lacking
any electronic engine controls, catalytic converter or thermactor it is
far, far dirtier than the original vehicle engine. This raises serious
questions as to whether the goals of converting an EV were met.
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Motor control schematics.
Hello, I'm new to building EV's, reasonably experienced with electronics
and particularly programming, but need a refresher on motor control techniques.
I would appreciate somm guidance as to how best to drive my motor. It's a
50V 15kW ex utility delivery vehicle (milk float)drive motor, DC and series
wound.
I would like to be able to write software for PWM , with PID control, but am
a bit shakey when it comes to things like regen. braking and some
schematics or advice would be helpful. As I understand it I can disconnect the field
coils from the armature and excite them seperately and doing this means I
can tune the motor for best efficiency according to it's speed.
What I'm wondering about is if it's just a case of stacking enough power
mosfets together and switching them with PWM in order to adjust speed. I can get
80V 110A mosfets easily.
I also wonder about using a small petrol driven generator to excite the
field coils in order to reduce the consumption for the batteries and so increase
range, does anyone have experience of doing this ?
Thanks in advance,
Chris Barron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wonder what sort of hitch might work best. I'm sure the ball hitch works
for a short while, but I've seen them fail... and I think they aren't
designed for this sort of thrust. Maybe turn it around backwards?
A ball hitch works best with a positive (downward) weight. If I understand
it correctly, that's one reason the self-leveler systems make the hitch
safer. Just thinking, it seems most of the pusher's force would be at the
wrong side of the hitch, on the tongue, instead of the socket.
I like that idea for EV. Most small new cars are around 2800lbs. The weight
they can haul is mostly due to the tranny, for freeway driving. W/ the
manual, they often list 1500 lbs as the max weight. That should do fine for
an EV pusher. The EV could be tucked in a corner of the garage during harsh
weather or long trips... brought out for normal use.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You know, one thing has been on my mind about warranties and charge meters.
I was talking to the guys at Power Battery the other day and they
mentioned their warranty would generally not cover cyclical use. And I
see where that's not unreasonable. ANY lead acid battery can be killed
in short order by hard or murderous usage and it's no fault of the mfg.
One thing that did come up was the mfg would be more inclined to honor a
warranty if valid usage logs were presented. A current/charge state
meter with enough storage EEPROM could do just that. Of course you
could lie and alter the records no problem, but then you could just as
easily have written down bogus usage logs or lied and said it had only
been in standby use when you were deep cycling it at high currents in an
EV.
I think a battery mfg would actually dig this, in fact the information
should be very useful data for them to help understand how they perform
in the field.
Danny
Tehben Dean wrote:
Does anyone have experience with Odyssey batteries?
Design Life 12 years
Service Life 6-10 years
Here are the specs for their marine group 31 http://
www.odysseybatteries.com/battery/pc2150.htm
On Nov 5, 2006, at 12:03 PM, Ryan Stotts wrote:
Some glimpses of the manufacturing process. They even saw one in half
with a band saw! Also, he claims these batteries last for 12 years.
I wonder if we can get that in writing?
http://www.nmratv.com/index.php?stream=http://www.streetlegaltv.com/
video/sema/wed-sltv-odyssey.flv&playlist=1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Whatever you do, under no circumstances put power to the contactor coil
> while it's hooked to
> the hairball, you'll blow it out (another woops on my part). And make sure
> you have the included
> diode in parrallel with the contactor coil, if you don't have this it will
> work once and then
> you'll blow out the contactor drive circuit. Although sometimes they can be
> annoying there's a
> ton of safteys built in to the Zilla package, they're there for a reason.
>
One thing I did differently was use two contactors, one on the positive and one
on the negative
from the pack. The are both Curtis-Albright contactors with original diodes. I
had two and I
figured that two would be safer than one. Instead of directly powering the main
contactor, I have
the lead from pin #5, Main Cont Coil, energize a relay which should power both
contactors at the
same time. I never saw power from pin #5, Main Cont Coil. Something in the
Hairball didn't want to
close the contactors. Could this cause a problem or is it a result of something
else?
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, one more thought. In my last reply I mentioned that I have contactors on
both sides of my
pack, pos and neg. The error I get imlpies that the hairball doesn't sense pack
voltage. So as I'm
looking over my wiring I start wondering, how does the Zilla know what my pack
voltage is. It has
a line on the positive side, but there's no obvious negative lead. Maybe I've
inadvertently opened
that circuit when I introduced the second contactor. The negative side of the
pack will not
connect without the contactors pulled in, but the zilla can't sense pack
voltage with that second
contactor open. Maybe my second contatctor needs to close with the key switch.
I'm pretty sure I
read that somewhere. Oops. Time for some rewiring.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But, it would nice to know it's actually legal before spending a few $K. So
long as it just looks like a trailer, I guess there's no problem. A lot of
folks get away w/ illegal cars so long as they aren't caught. <g>
It might slip through under the "combined vehicle" rules, but if it's
powered, it apparently isn't a trailer, in Oregon.
801.560 "Trailer." "Trailer" means every vehicle without motive power
designed to be drawn by another vehicle.
So, it's not a trailer... maybe it's a tractor:
801.575 "Truck tractor." "Truck tractor" means a motor vehicle designed and
used primarily for drawing other vehicles and constructed so as not to carry
any load other than a part of the weight of the vehicle or load, or both, as
drawn. [1983 c.338 §106]
See what I mean about confusing??? That's one place it is spelled out. There
are many where it isn't.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 04, 2006 12:42 PM
Subject: Re: Pusher Trailer
> Totally irrelevent however, since trailers are already legal and included
> in every states current laws. No state currently has a law AGAINST pusher
> trailers, so why fight a battle that isn't there?
>
> P.s. Self balancing is a pretty definitive description that means it
> balances by itself. If it's attached to something, then it's not self
> balancing.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave,
> One thing I did differently was use two contactors, one on
> the positive and one on the negative
> from the pack.
> <snip>
> Instead of directly powering the main contactor, I have
> the lead from pin #5, Main Cont Coil, energize a relay which
> should power both contactors at the
> same time.
> <snip>
> Could this cause a problem or is it a result of something else?
That's gotta be the problem, and is consistent with your error code.
To quote Otmar:
"The controller does not wake up until it gets power
from the pack through the precharge circuit in the Hairball. The
1231 is "open propulsion pack". It can tell that before it turns on
the contactor since there is no voltage across the contacts of the
contactor."
which is exactly your situation. The Hairball won't close the contactor(s)
because, with the negative pole opened, it can't perform the pre-charge it
needs to do before it closes the contactor.
I imagine that if you wire up the negative contactor to close with the key-on
switch (or bypass it temporarily), you'll be in business.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks. I did and it did!
--- Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I imagine that if you wire up the negative contactor to close with the key-on
> switch (or bypass
> it temporarily), you'll be in business.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After a little frantic last minute scrambling and help from the list, my EV
grin is officially
installed! My car made it's maiden voyage down the driveway under electric
power. Unfortunately,
due to a completely undercharged pack, the second half of the trip was by human
power. BUT, I'll
get the charging straightened out, finish up the little details and have it on
the road in no
time.
Yahoooooo!
Dave Cover, official EV owner (finally.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
> --- Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Whatever you do, under no circumstances put power to the contactor
> > coil while it's hooked to
> > the hairball, you'll blow it out (another woops on my part). And make
> > sure you have the included
> > diode in parrallel with the contactor coil, if you don't have this it
> > will work once and then
> > you'll blow out the contactor drive circuit. Although sometimes they can
> > be annoying there's a
> > ton of safteys built in to the Zilla package, they're there for a
> > reason.
> >
> One thing I did differently was use two contactors, one on the positive
> and one on the negative
> from the pack. The are both Curtis-Albright contactors with original
> diodes. I had two and I
> figured that two would be safer than one. Instead of directly powering the
> main contactor, I have
> the lead from pin #5, Main Cont Coil, energize a relay which should power
> both contactors at the
> same time. I never saw power from pin #5, Main Cont Coil. Something in the
> Hairball didn't want to
> close the contactors. Could this cause a problem or is it a result of
> something else?
That should not be a problem. I have my ignition circuit turning on a relay
for two contactors from the battery and have pin #5 turn on a relay which
turns on the main contactor.
I also have a Zener Overvoltage Transient Suppressors across all the
contactor coils.
At first I tried to operate the main contactor only with pin #5, which took
out the Hairball.
See if you are getting any voltage out of pin #5 when you turn on the start
switch.
Roland
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Make sure you operated the battery contactors first. I use the ignition on
switch for this. And then the Hairball pin #5 should turn on the main
contactor second with the start switch.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
> Ok, one more thought. In my last reply I mentioned that I have contactors
> on both sides of my
> pack, pos and neg. The error I get imlpies that the hairball doesn't sense
> pack voltage. So as I'm
> looking over my wiring I start wondering, how does the Zilla know what my
> pack voltage is. It has
> a line on the positive side, but there's no obvious negative lead. Maybe
> I've inadvertently opened
> that circuit when I introduced the second contactor. The negative side of
> the pack will not
> connect without the contactors pulled in, but the zilla can't sense pack
> voltage with that second
> contactor open. Maybe my second contatctor needs to close with the key
> switch. I'm pretty sure I
> read that somewhere. Oops. Time for some rewiring.
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2006 7:25 PM
Subject: RE: New Zilla startup questions, (HELP!)
> Thanks. I did and it did!
Good, then you do not have to bug Otmar, we did all the bugging and we don't
want Otmar to be too buggee or we will never get our Zillas. Roland
>
> --- Claudio Natoli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >
> > I imagine that if you wire up the negative contactor to close with the
> > key-on switch (or bypass
> > it temporarily), you'll be in business.
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Let's start by asking on the list. Does anyone have a dead controller
that Eric could buy/borrow to trace out? It can be dead and unfixable.
The important part is the control board. The power board's schematic
is very simple and not a problem.
Heck the power part is what I was concerned about. I was just going to
use a PWM uController for the control section, do all the tuning and
limits in software.
Questions I have:
Is a LEM sensor good enough for battery, motor (freewheel) current
sensing? It has the advantage of being isolated, but I'm concerened
about it's response.
Otmar says mosfets don't have to be matched, but diodes do. Is diode
matching simply a matter of making sure their forward drop is within a
certain range of each other?
What about IGBTs? I understand discreets must have matching gate "on"
voltage, and saturation voltage. Seems this might be difficult to
measure, or might not. I'm not sure. Evidently the difficulty is
getting IGBTs from the same wafer.
I was going to post these questions to the EVTech list, but it appears down.
I have a couple dead Curtis controllers at the moment, but I'm fixing
them for people. One I bought for $500; it died from water damage, and
is mostly intact. The second Bob Rice sent me; it has a bunch of blown
MOSFETs but otherwise looks repairable.
Other than water sensitivity, what causes the curtis failure modes?
When I look at that schematic, the control section seems really
old-fashioned.
It was designed about 15 years ago. Is that "old fashioned" to you? :-)
I'm afraid so, Lee. I /was/ fixing electronics 15 years ago, but I'm
also a big fan of microcontrollers.
An advantage of this design is that all of the parts are simple,
inexpensive, and generic. A quad opamp only costs $0.25, and resistors
are only a penny. Every part was available 20 years ago, and will
*still* be available in another 20 years. It is simple to understand
how it works, or to fix or modify it.
Yeah, and a PWM PIC is about $6. Considering the cost of the rest of it
... not a big deal.
What's of particular interest is the power section and the gate drivers,
and the overcurrent sensing. Seems to me this is where the focus needs
to occur.
I agree. These are also the areas where a lot has been learned since
the Curtis was designed, so we can do better today.
Any suggestions?
"The project" being the Curtis reverse engineering? Most people don't
have good things to say about them.
Most people don't have good things to say about *any* controller! They
are all too expensive, too hard to get, don't have the features they
want, etc. :-)
Basically, I think that if you want to build your own controller, and
don't have a lot of skill, then the best way to be successful is to
build a (simplified) version of the Curtis control board, and use it
to drive a power module with the transistors and diodes already in it.
I'm keeping my eye on the 1200V, 600A IGBT modules on Ebay -- $85.
Trying to find a reason not to use it! I haven't done the math on
switching losses and on-state losses (and frankly, I don't have an idea
where to start with frequency and "average" PWM percentage), but the
device I'm looking at (http://tinyurl.com/u7v93) can dissipate 4100W,
but it seems you probably don't want those kinds of losses to begin with.
Mr. Borges schematic is (literally) unreadable, scanned at too low
a resolution.
There must be some problem with different browsers. I can read 99% of
that schematic on my system. The parts I can't read, I can figure out
what they must be. Of course, you can also get the original book.
Any idea what book it is? I just ordered "Motor Control Electronics
Handbook" by Valentine, at Otmar's suggestion.
If I had two choices of 1) Buying a $2500 controller and using it,
or 2) Building a controller for a whole lot more and releasing the
design, I'd probably choose option #2.
That's good... altruism at its finest! I am certainly willing to do
all that I can to help in such efforts.
What rubs me the wrong way are the people that talk about what someone
*else* should do for them for free; but they aren't willing to
contribute anything themselves.
Problem is, most people *can't* contribute. "Those who can, do ..."
"you won't save money"...
The worst reason to get into EVs is "so I can save money on gasoline."
Once people get past that illusion, then they can make real progress.
There are many reasons to do things besides money!
I got past this a long time ago. I'm going for the nerd factor.
Personally, I try hard to support the people that are building EV
products. If I want something like a Zilla controller, I'll *buy* a
Zilla. Otmar isn't getting rich; he works hard, and he deserves my money.
I only build my own if I *need* to for some reason. Maybe the product
I need doesn't exist, or doesn't fit, or is unavailable for some
reason. Or I have a new idea I want to try out. Or, for the
educational value. Or, just for fun. I almost never do it to save money.
I do like the intellectual challenge. My needs are modest, and a Z1K
is a bit overkill, but I like the reliability.
I might like to point out that neither books nor magazines are free,
and don't tell me the library has this sort of stuff, because they
don't. I've checked.
Then you are looking the wrong places. Go to any university
engineering library. They have more technical books than you could
possibly read in a lifetime, all free. Even your local public library
is probably part of an inter-library loan program; they can get books
from other libraries for you for free.
Subscribe to any of the dozens of technical magazines. They are almost
all free, provided you "look like" a working engineer to them.
Request copies of application notes from all the big semiconductor
manufacturers. They are all free, and have huge amounts of data.
And, there are vast online resources.
I'm just ramping up on my quest. I'll certainly look into it. Even
with the inter-library loan, my local library doesn't have much in the
way of tech books.
But again, don't cripple yourself by thinking that "everything has to
be free". Why should I help deadbeats and freeloaders that want
everything for nothing?
Because I want to release it to the community? =)
--- End Message ---
