EV Digest 6111
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) VW on Ebay
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: motor roughness
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: motor roughness?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
5) Re: Heaters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: motor roughness?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) one more done
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Input requested on heater assembly
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV pusher Trailer
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Dual outlet opportunity charging
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Solar EV power
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Vacuum switch relayed, was: LED brakelights (Vacuum switch)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV pusher Trailer
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: motor roughness
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
One of our members had put up a VW that he just converted...
Ebay 260049662109
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks guys for the great quick advice.
Maybe it is the brake being tight. The mechanic recently tightened the
EBrake and who knows what the fronts are up to. He just freed up the
calipers
Well, I'll do the free wheel thing Jim advised to see and feel what I can.
True, no noise nor anything out of the ordinary after the motor is
rotating.
Roland, what was the cost of all those modifications to your GE? just as a
curiosity of what motor repairs are.
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I agree that the EV pusher trailer is a bad idea. But not because of the
> fuel mileage that you suggest. Most trailers that I've towed have resulted
> in less than 1 or 2 mpg loss. And that is with heavy trailers up over my
> cab
> pushing the wind. Some trailers (lower profile) have actually IMPROVED my
> mileage even while loaded.
You are talking about towing a trailer with a TRUCK, my comment was about
towing a trailer with a small car. Big difference, especially when
talking the effect on mileage.
Either way your end result is near the same mileage, the truck looses
less, but starts at a lower mileage to begin with.
>
> However I still believe an Electric pusher is a bad idea. Especially if it
> is to be used only occasionally, which I believe it would. The batteries
> will die of old age before they get any use.
>
> However, having said all that, I am contemplating building one for my
> bicycle (13 mi each way to work).
>
> Bikes and cars are completely different in this aspect though....
Totally agree. Electric pushers for bikes are a decent idea. Keeps the
weight off the bike and helps folks (who might not otherwise) get some
exercise.
Mounting a motor and batteries on a bike tends to make it top heavy. Not
that big of a deal while you're riding it, but a nuisance when you try to
park it.
Of course, if you ride a lot, then the electric motor become superfluous.
Even people in moderate good shape can out perform most e-bikes and folks
in good shape can out perform ALL of the legal e-bicycles.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben,
It would be interesting to hear if you encounter any roughness after coasting
to a stop and not applying the brakes.
It would also be interesting to hear if you feel any roughness as you coast to
a stop?
That might provide a clue.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Do you hear a pop sound? Could it be a brake that sticks?
>
> --
> In Friendship, Ted
> //ted.sanders.home.comcast.net
> //ffni.home.comcast.net
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Hey Ben
> >
> > This doesn't sound like a typical motor problem. If
> > the armature was dragging against the pole shoes then
> > you'd hear it all the time. I really can't think of
> > anything that would lock up a 9" motor at 156 volts.
> >
> > Have you tried lifting the cars drive axle to run it
> > without driving to better hear / experience this??
> > Thought this might be an option being you don't want
> > to pull the motor out. I'f you'd like send me a pic
> > of the brushes and I can confirm if they are still
> > good for you and knock that one off the list. Heck
> > grab a video of it running if ya want and I'll put an
> > ear to it as well, but I don't believe you have a
> > motor issue myself.
> > Hope this helps
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi-Torque Electric
> >
> > --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > Could someone with motor experience diagnose my
> > > issue please.
> > >
> > > Upon startup in 2nd gear it feels as if the motor
> > > has to push past
> > > something rough to get started. Once in motion the
> > > problem is gone, and
> > > there is no problem with acceleration, no strange
> > > noises from transmission
> > > at low or high RPM, just upon startup from 0 RPM.
> > > [can I describe it better; almost as if the motor
> > > has to push past a solid
> > > object that is keeping it from rotating to get
> > > started, but that object
> > > disappears once motor is in motion]
> > > Because of this problem, I am now starting in 1st
> > > gear at 0 RPM. The
> > > problem is still there, but with a lighter weight
> > > foot, and the higher
> > > torque, it isn't as rough as in 2nd gear.
> > >
> > > Is this just the brushes time for replacement or a
> > > symptom of another
> > > issue.
> > >
> > > basics:
> > > Have Advanced DC 9" motor (probably 10 years old
> > > with 50-100K miles)
> > > running 156 VDC with 15 degree advanced timing with
> > > Raptor 600 and T125's
> > > in a Chevy S10 4 speed manual.
> > >
> > > I'm not setup to drop a motor, nor have I ever done;
> > > so only if this is the
> > > concern would it be worth that struggle. then I am
> > > not up for opening to
> > > see. I'd have to take it to the local motor shop.
> > >
> > > Thanks for the advice, Ben
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ________________________________________________________________________________
> > ____
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
> > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Lee Hart suggested to use your batteries as thermal storage...
insulate the battery boxes and heat your batteries when parked/charging
using heating pads etc. powered from the AC line. When driving, have
a fan circulate cabin air through the battery boxes to heat the cabin.
Mark McCurdy wrote:
> don't batteries produce flammable gas?
There are several things that make this a non-problem.
- Flooded batteries only gas while charging, and only at the end of
a charge cycle.
- Sealed batteries don't gas at all, unless something goes seriously
wrong with your charger.
- The amount of gas generated is quite low; it's only a hazard if
trapped or confined in some manner.
- By having a fan that ventilates the battery box, you never get
a high enough concentration to be a problem.
I tried this idea in one of my old EVs. I had an insulated battery box
with 14 6v golf cart batteries in it. A blower circulated air from the
interior, through the motor, through the battery box, and back into the
interior (with a small amount of outside makeup air). It had the effect
of cooling the motor, cooling the batteries, and heating the interior.
Or in the summer, it tended to cool the interior of the car by heating
up the batteries.
It worked, but not very well. It also had the effect of circulating the
ozone from the motor and gassing from the batteries into the interior. :-)
I think the idea has merit, but needs to be a bit more sophisticated to
work well. Instead of circulating the same air over the batteries,
motor, and interior, use the battery/motor side as the "outdoor" side of
a heat pump, with the "indoor" side the interior of your car. This way,
the heat pump is working against a huge mass that it almost the same
temperature as the interior of the car, which makes it highly efficient.
You can either heat or cool with minimal energy requirements.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Could someone with motor experience diagnose my issue please.
>
> Upon startup in 2nd gear it feels as if the motor has to push past
> something rough to get started. Once in motion the problem is
> gone, and there is no problem with acceleration, no strange noises
from
> transmission at low or high RPM, just upon startup from 0 RPM.
I wonder if what you have may be a controller issue rather than a motor
issue?
Starting in second gear from a stop will require greater motor current
than doing the same in 1st, so one thing you are doing that lessens the
problem is reducing the motor current demand being placed on the
controller.
I would suspect that what you are observing is that the controller is
(for some reason) enforcing a lower current limit than you expect, and
this manifests itself as some "difficulty" starting off (which is where
your motor current demand is greatest).
The fact that there is no noise, etc. suggests that there is not a
mechanical problem. You could verify this by putting the tranny in
neutral and trying to turn the motor armature by hand (easiest if you
have a tailshaft to grab onto), or place the tranny in 1st and jack up
one drive wheel and see how difficult is it to spin the motor over by
turning the wheel. If there is something mechanical impeding the motor
turning over, you should be able to feel it when you try to turn the
motor using either of these approaches.
The Raptor does have the ability to enforce an RPM limit; it may be that
the controller is seeing noise on the speed input until the motor is
spinning (and providing a valid speed signal), and so tries to protect
the motor by limiting its output initially.
Hope this helps,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We have #22 going to the new owner on Friday, Its done and tested, 86 S-10, 144
volt system, I have 20 batteries under the bed, and 4 up front by where the
radiator use to be, ,uses a Curtis 1231C controller, Warp 9 motor, and a RussCo
battery charger @ 3,000 watts, on 110 volts. Since I make my own adapter plates
and couplers, its faster than waiting for the UPS driver to show up, and a hell
of alot cheaper for me, than to buy them. all CNC machined. The springs had 3
leafs on each side added.
This one has A/C, Electric heat, power steering, Vacuum pump for the brakes
and vents. an Alternator for the 12 volt system.Total time was 6 weeks,not my
fastest.but I did have to do body work and paint it too.
# 23 has all the battery boxes made and installed, now the body work and
painting begins ,and still have one more out side, that i bought and was told,"
I changed my mind" after He told me to find a truck and buy it....dumb me, Oh
well one more 2.8 L that ends up in the junk yard.
Wayne & Sharon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee has written about why this is not a good idea.
However you should check your stock electronics. In my Nissan truck,
there is a blower relay that is electrically disconnected from the
possible voltage generated by a spinning down motor as soon as the fan
switch goes to off. In the stock vehicle it sent 12v to the onboard
computer whenever the fan was on. Apparently that was useful
information for the operation of the vehicle.
Turn out to be very useful in my conversion heater circuit.
John
Disclaimer: I'm not an EE and everything I know about electric circuits
has been gleamed from the list.
On Tuesday, November 7, 2006, at 08:23 AM, Hartsell, Fred wrote:
I am getting ready to wire up my heater and I thought about just
putting
in a separate 12 volt switch to handle the relay. I would also use
this
switch to send 12 volts to the fan switch so that it would not be able
to run until I turn on the primary switch. Would this be okay to use?
Fred
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"MPG loss" does not say anything without specifying
where you started.
The inverse, gallons per 100 miles does give a very good
and exact indication, but cannot be calculated unless you
stated where you started.
This is the old question: What is better?
1. Improve a 10 MPG SUV to get 11 MPG? (add 1 mpg)
2. or to improve a 50 MPG Prius to 60 MPG? (add 10 mpg)
The unexpected answer is that 1 is far better in total
energy consumptoin and you can easily see this when
inverting the numbers to gallons per 100 miles (gphm):
1. from 10 gphm to 9.1 gphm (0.9 saved)
2. from 2 gphm to 1.7 gphm (0.3 saved)
So, when you say that adding a trailer only causes 1 MPG drop
that could mean that it costs 1 gallon extra per 100 miles
for a 10 MPH vehicle (now getting 9 MPG) but the same extra
1 gallon per 100 miles for an efficient EV is comparable to
the hit that a Prius gets, when normally using 2 gallon
per 100 miles then adding one for 3 gallon per 100 miles
means the familiar number of 50 MPG becomes 33 MPG, which
means that the range is reduced by 33%!
As I said, an efficient EV will be hit equally hard by a
"slight" reduction in aerodynamics.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Tim Humphrey
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 8:44 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV pusher Trailer
Pete,
I agree that the EV pusher trailer is a bad idea. But not because of the
fuel mileage that you suggest. Most trailers that I've towed have resulted
in less than 1 or 2 mpg loss. And that is with heavy trailers up over my cab
pushing the wind. Some trailers (lower profile) have actually IMPROVED my
mileage even while loaded.
However I still believe an Electric pusher is a bad idea. Especially if it
is to be used only occasionally, which I believe it would. The batteries
will die of old age before they get any use.
However, having said all that, I am contemplating building one for my
bicycle (13 mi each way to work).
Bikes and cars are completely different in this aspect though....
--
Stay Charged!
Hump
GE I-5
Blossvale, NY
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 9:19 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: EV pusher Trailer
>
> Are you all STILL talking about electric pushers? Sorry to burst your
> bubble, but this is just a plain bad idea.
>
> It takes about 600lbs of lead-acid batteries to get the same range as one
> gallon of gasoline. Because EVs only carry the equivelent of one to three
> gallons of gasoline, they HAVE to be efficient. An electric pusher simply
> isn't efficient.
> Let's assume we try a small electric pusher with only 600lbs of batteries,
> 100+ lbs of motor, 75-100lbs of tranmission, 25-50 lbs of controller,
> circuit breakers, cables, etc. plus the weight of the trailer and we are
> talking about 1,2000 lbs, maybe more.
> Now let's assume we have a car with average fuel economy, approx 27 mpg.
> What does it's fuel economy drop to when pulling a 1,200 lb trailer?
> 19-20mpg, maybe worse?
> So you spend thousands to get a vehicle that can only get you 10 miles
> before you have to return, or you put up with poor fuel economy when you
go
> further. Plus you have to put up with hualing a trailer around town.
> You can make the trailer heavier, but you are looking at diminishing
> returns, then next 600 lbs gets you maybe 15 miles and so forth. Plus
it's
> too heavy for a small car to hual (most passenger vehicles only have a
1,000
> towing capacity or less.)
>
> Spend the money on a used hybrid, you're far better off. Buy an old Prius
> and you can convert it to a plug in hybrid and get the same electric range
> as above and WAY BETTER fuel economy when you run out of juice.
>
> Or get a SECOND car and convert it to electric. You'll have lower costs
and
> a lot less work than making a pusher trailer and much better range and
> efficiency.
>
> ICE pushers make a certain sense for some situations. ELectric pushers
> don't really make any sense.
>
> > I can see how pushing a car on the highway would work, but if you had
> > an electric pusher pushing an ICE car around town, it seems like it
> > might be a little awkward say.. doing a right angle turn from a
> > stoplight? especially if you have a light vehicle. ...maybe if you
> > accelerate very slowly?
> > Anyone have experience in this situation?
> >
> > Just throwing that out there.
> >
> > -Tehben
> >
> >
> > On Nov 6, 2006, at 11:41 AM, Michael wrote:
> >
> >>> The forward pressure on the tongue when operating in pusher
mode is
> >>> relatively small compared to the forward pressure in braking
mode.
> >>> That
> >>> should pretty well negate concern about the switch and the
concern
> >>> about the hitch operating backwards from its design. The
amount of
> >>> force generated on the hitch by your pusher is insignificant
> >>> compared to stopping a 5000 pound trailer. Compare your 0-60
time
> >>> with your 60-0 time.
> >>> F=MA
> >>
> >> That is very true. My concern was that all the weight was
negative...
> >> lifting the hitch off the ball. (Braking power shoves the hitch
> >> *down* on
> >> the ball & only a small amount of that force is taken by the
locking
> >> tongue.)
> >>
> >> Driving w/ a hitch would be lifting, so perhaps it'd be wise to
> >> balance the trailer with a bit more weight on the tonge than
you'd
> >> normall use.
> >>
> >> For one of our utility trailers, we also used a couple short
chains.
> >> Thus, even if the tongue unlatched itself, the chains would keep
the
> >> hitch from lifting completely off the ball. (My boss started
doing
> >> that when a new hitch tongue broke and a trailer/bulldozer tried
to
> >> drive over the top of his PU. <g>)
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk
> at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I wish
> with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
__________________________________________________________________
http://www.evsource.com - Professional EV components and resources
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Without knowing it they are on the same phase or not,
you have no clue whether you are going to get 120
or 240V! when using two diode bridges.
NOTE that with each cord feeding its own diode bridge
(a great idea to avoid current flowing out one cord
when plugging in the other) then each of the two
bridges will provide the highest voltage it sees to
the + output of the bridge and the lowest voltage to
the - output of any bridge.
With the two bridges' outputs connected + to + and - to -
they can be supplying the same rectified 120V if the
two circuits are on the same phase.
However, if they are different phases, then only one
diode of each bridge conducts, from the highest of the
two 120V phases to the + and from the lowest of the
two phases to the - output.
All other 3 diodes in each bridge will block.
This means that the two phases are added and you get
rectified 240V, approximately 340V, from the bridge.
NOTE that the bridges must be 400V or higher types or
they will fail.
It depends on your charger if it can take the 340V
input or will fail as soon as you plug into two
different phases.
NOTE there are so many failure cases with using two
sockets combined at the same time, that I would advice
against it and use appropriate outlets and plugs to
get the power you want and that is safely available!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of mike golub
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging
The block heaters typically have the 20amp breaker
where the outlet is. If not you can walk about 30 feet
to the clearly marked box. Most outlets are numbered,
and are clearly written which outlet is which. So
sometimes you can walk the 30 feet look into the
circuit breaker box and see that they are both on
separate circuits and if they are on different
"phases".
But the question remains is it ok to make something
universal that would use to extension cords to
separate diode bridges. I know each will have its
own 20 amp breaker, but not always on the same phase.
thanks
--- steve clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "mike golub" >
> > I was wondering if I could connect each outlet to
> a
> > separate diode bridge and then parallel the output
> for
> > my 120v dc battery pack. (Take the +168v from each
> > bridge and each -168v from each bridge, and
> applying
> > them to my batteries).
> >
> > Can that work?
> >
> Only if each out let is on the same leg and if they
> both or on different
> brakers. You can tell if they are on the same leg
> buy using a meter and
> putting it across the two hot leads , if it reads 0
> then your on the same
> leg , if not it will read 240 ( I would test all
> combinations incase the out
> let is miss wired ) . Telling if it has its own
> braker is going to be
> harder. How many watts dose a block heater use ?
> another way around this is
> with a isolation transformer. This will also let you
> plug into 240 . The way
> I hooked this one for 240 was to have the ac go
> through the ac part of the
> bridge rectifier , then through the input of the
> isolation transformer , the
> other end of the input goes to the other 240 ac wire
> . You'll need another
> bridge on the out put of the isolation transformer
> and both bridges have
> there out puts going to the batteries . I would
> also not just use 1 bridge
> but 2 or 3 , and heat sinks and fans .
> Steve Clunn ,,,, my spell checker says braker is not
> a word hmmmm .
>
>
>
>
> > thanks,
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________
______________
> > Sponsored Link
> >
> > Talk more and pay less. Vonage can save you up to
> $300 a year on your
> > phone bill.
> > Sign up now. http://www.vonage.com/startsavingnow/
> >
> >
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Sponsored Link
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Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's - in less than one year.
http://www.findtherightschool.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
I think he meant to use the solar panel as the source for the
battery balancer power, instead of the DC/DC converter.
So, the balancer will switch the solar panel's power around.
At one moment it may charge the aux battery, then it will
disconnect it (via the relays per battery) and hook it to
the weakest traction battery, and so on.
You need to take care that the panel will be connect to various
points in your traction pack while charging, but this is OK
from perspective of the solar panel.
They usually are made for up to 600V DC installations, where
many panels are put in series to reduce wiring to the inverters.
More or less the same as the batteries in our application.
This also allows transformerless inverters, where the input is
direct converted into a sine wave in the same was as in an AC
controller, the solar panels will then have a gavanic connection
to the grid and this is an approved application.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of steve clunn
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 10:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Solar EV power
There are a couple of things to keep in mind , you can't hook your house
battery to any of the traction pack batteries and still use it as the "
house" battery as this would in effect connect some part of the traction
pack to the frame of the car . You could have 2 house batteries and
completely disconnect one ( both + and -) then charge your low traction pack
from that while the other house battery runs your lights ect. . The other
thing I found , when you can charge one battery in your traction pack buy
its self , either from a solar panel or dc to dc , you may find your self
throwing your pack more out of balance buy using it only some of the time or
if you forget and leave it on , well , that's not good either.
Steve Clunn .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "List EV" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 8:55 PM
Subject: Solar EV power
>I have a 190 watt solar panel I'm thinking of mounting on my car. It could
>easily charge my house battery but would produce more power than needed. I
>was thinking of using an inverter and dumping the excess in the traction
>pack. I realise it wouldn't be a real significant contribution, but at
>least it wouldn't be wasted.
>
> But from this list I learned about Lee Hart's battery balancer that
> charges each battery individually, and Steve Clunn who charges his
> lawnmowers from his truck pack. Would it be reasonable to have a large
> house battery and use it to charge up each pack battery in turn? Charge up
> house, when full charge up first traction battery. Charge up house and use
> it to charge next traction battery. etc.
>
> It should be impossible to overcharge the traction batteries this way. I
> assume the transfer of charge would be rapid. Eventually the pack would be
> balanced. I suppose that if the traction batteries were discharged it
> would require a pretty healthy connector.
>
> Is there anything here worth pursuing?
>
> storm
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You need to find why/where/when it oscillates,
it sounds as if the switch opens, and closes a few times.
Do you have a handheld scope available?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 9:18 AM
To: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re: LED brakelights (Vacuum switch)
So I added a factory relay to the bracket on the firewall. It looks
bone stock and very clean. The only problem is that the relay
oscillates every time the vacuum switch opens. Can I put a cap
somewhere to mellow out the oscillations?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> That is how my vacuum is wired:
> Vacuum Switch - relay - pump.
> When your pump starts running 100% you only need to pull the
> relay to stop it. (And _stand_ on the brake pedal)
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 7:52 AM
> To: Lawrence Rhodes
> Subject: Re: LED brakelights (Vacuum switch)
>
>
> I remember seeing that one. It just didn't quite make the 5 amps I
> needed. Although I really like microswitches. I suppose adding a
> relay would fix it.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <ev@> wrote:
> >
> > EV parts has an inexpensive one. Gotta watch the connections.
They are
> > weak. Had to solder mine back on. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mike Phillips" <mikep_95133@>
> > To: "Cor van de Water" <ev@>
> > Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 5:17 AM
> > Subject: Re: LED brakelights (Vacuum switch)
> >
> >
> > > I didn't change the topic clearly enough. My vacuum switch for the
> > > power brake vacuum pump is seized. I need a new one.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <ev@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Huh, What is the vacuum switch going to do?
> > > > Your brake pedal already has a brake light switch
> > > > if that is what you want.
> > > >
> > > > Cor van de Water
> > > > Systems Architect
> > > > Email: CWater@ Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@
> > > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: owner-ev@ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > > > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 11:27 PM
> > > > To: Cor van de Water
> > > > Subject: Re: LED brakelights (Vacuum switch)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thanks for the math. Still, if the hardware is available I
might as
> > > > well use it.
> > > >
> > > > Where can I get a vacuum switch that can handle 5 amps at 12v?
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Cor van de Water <ev@>
> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Normal brake light is 12V 21W
> > > > > so with DC/DC inefficiencies the 65W can easily
> > > > > draw more than 80W.
> > > > >
> > > > > Just how often are you braking?
> > > > > I think that when I add all the time in my 20 - 25 min
> > > > > commute that I am actually sitting on the brake, it
> > > > > will total around 2 - 3 min (on level road I do not brake
> > > > > once stopped, on slight upramp I keep the accelerator
> > > > > a tiny bit depressed to hold the vehicle with an
> > > > > unmeasurable amount of current from the pack.)
> > > > > Just as unmeasurable as the brake light consumption:
> > > > > If you brake for 3 min that will cost you 1/20 (3min/60min)
> > > > > times the power consumption (=90W) or about 5Wh.
> > > > > If your vehicle is well aligned and needs 200Wh/mi this
> > > > > means that the brake lights cost you 1/40 mile range.
> > > > > I do not think those 120 feet makes a real difference
> > > > > that is so much of a cencern that you should worry
> > > > > about them.
> > > > > If you drive 1 mph less fast or take off 1/2 second slower
> > > > > then you are going to gain much more range.
> > > > > Better focus on tire rolling resistance, bearing quality,
> > > > > brake drag, aerodynamics and all those other big energy
> > > > > consumers, before paying attention to the issues below the
> > > > > 0.1% line.
> > > > >
> > > > > YMMV.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cor van de Water
> > > > > Systems Architect
> > > > > Email: CWater@ Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > > > > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: cor_van_de_water@
> > > > > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > > > > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > > > > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > > > > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: owner-ev@ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > > > > Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 9:35 PM
> > > > > To: ev@
> > > > > Subject: Re: LED brakelights
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The emeter shows a drop of .3 amps when I step on the brake
pedal.
> > > With
> > > > > out more accuracy it could be .21 amps at 300v. 60w is close
to 3
> > > brake
> > > > > lamp elements IIRC.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- "John G. Lussmyer" <Cougar@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > At 09:20 PM 10/5/2006, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> > > > > > >At 08:55 PM 10/5/2006, Mike Phillips wrote:
> > > > > > >>I'm wanting to replace my 3 brake light bulbs as they pull
> .3 amps
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > >>the 300v pack thru the dc-dc. That's just a plain waste.
Then
> > > there
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > >>the 2 running light elements as well.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Wow, you must have BRIGHT brake lights. 900W of power!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >Somehow I don't think your brake lights are pulling 3A
out of a
> > > 300v
> > > > > > pack.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Oops, now I see the decimal point.
> > > > > > I still doubt your brake lights are pulling 90W of power!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > John G. Lussmyer mailto:Cougar@
> > > > > > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> > > > > > http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > > > The misfits.
> > > > > The rebels.
> > > > > The troublemakers.
> > > > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > > > The ones who see things differently
> > > > > The ones that change the world!!
> > > > >
> > > > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do not know if this was quoted already, as I did not
read every post in this monster-thread, but it is not
true that all IGBT's have between 2 and 3V drop between
Collector and Emitter.
For example the IR (International Rectifier) GA200SA60S
has typical 1.1 Volts drop at 100A. (1.33V at 200A)
Now this may be a somewhat light part for a controller,
but this proves that IGBT's can be efficient, even when
making a controller with 600V IGBT parts.
NOTE that at these voltages, about 200 to 300A battery
current is sufficient for most uses. It will depend
on the motor, how much current capacity is needed at
that side...
200A would be a stretch for this component (spec'ed at 200A)
even with a 0.1 deg/W heatsink added to its own 0.2 means
1 deg rise for every 3.3 Watts.
200A at 1.33V is 266W resulting in 80 deg rise of junction
above heatsink temp. That means a short-lived controller,
unless thermal cutback is implemented, allowing 200A until
the heatsink (component case) reaches 47 deg C, then cutting
current back if it rises above that to maintain the junction
at max 100 deg C.
(with 0.2 deg/W junction to case, the junction is 53 deg
above case temp at constant 200A, 266W)
(The current will not need to be cut back to 100A until
the case reaches 100x1.1x0.2 =22 deg under 100 C or 78 deg.
With more than one such device parallel or with a heavier
type if they carry them, you will be able to get a
multiple of these currents....
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Arthur W. Matteson
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 12:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
You seem to have little idea of what's involved here.
Lee said the heatsink temperature was 50*C. Given that parameter, I
calculated the current correctly. Even if he had said that the ambient
temperature were 50*C, his current calculation is still too low because
it doesn't account for the lower voltage drop due to the lower-than-600A
current and the higher-than-25*C junction temperature.
Clearly, a brief websearch is not going to teach you much (at least if
you interpret the results incorrectly). The heatsink in question is
obviously larger than that of a CPU.
These are the heatsinks we use at work:
http://www.d6industries.com/HeatSinks.htm
Even the worst on that page is 0.15*C/W, and it can fit in a 5" cube!
This would barely hold the module anyway. The water-cooled heatsink I'm
using for my project is around 0.006*C/W, and could fit about four
modules. This would still be one-quarter of the thermal resistance Lee
quoted (but the value doesn't matter anyway, as I said above).
- Arthur
On Tue, 2006-11-07 at 01:59 -0600, Danny Miller wrote:
> You are not accurately describing the heatsink. Lee is correct there.
> A heatsink is not a fixed temp. Well, they do have a temperature, but
> it's not fixed. The effective characterization is an ambient temp and
> the heatsink's thermal resistance.
>
> 0.1 deg C/W is realistic for a good heatsink, actually that's probably
> the best. If the heatsink's fan is taking in 35C air in a hot car, the
> package will see a heatsink temp of 50C at a power level of 150W. At
> 714W that heatsink's temp alone will be 106.4C, exceeding the max
> junction temp at the heatsink face alone.
>
> There are no great workarounds to the heatsink problem. 0.1C/W is
> already for a very good heatsink, we're talking lots of fins and the
> most airflow that is practical. It may be difficult to attain anything
> like this by "working with what you have". Water-cooled can be better,
> but they're still not zero. There's also the matter of the thermal
> connection (grease, silicone thermal pad, etc) also has its own nonzero
> thermal resistance. Here's a description:
>
>
http://www.electronics-cooling.com/Resources/EC_Articles/JUN95/jun95_01.htm
>
> So take a look. The thermal resistance of the silicone insulator alone
> (if you need insulation) is 0.78C/W if it's a full sq in. The best
> listed in 0.07C/W for a full sq in of contact area.
>
> I just did a brief websearch and those super-effective water-cooled CPU
> coolers are talking about 0.4C/W to 0.22C/W, these are not as good as
> the original 0.1C/W estimate. And the 0.22C/W was listed as the spec
> for the waterblock, I think that's from water-to-mounting surface
> resistance, but the water will be warmer than the ambient under load
> because the radiator has its own thermal impedance.
>
> Danny
>
> Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
>
> >Like electrical resistances, thermal resistances are always *between*
> >two things. So if you already know the heatsink temperature [voltage],
> >you can figure out the ambient temperature [voltage] based on the power
> >dissipated [current] and the resistance.
> >
> >But this resistance shouldn't be included here, because we aren't saying
> >the ambient temperature is 50*C. 118A would be right for an ambient
> >temperature of 50*C. Recalculating for a known 50*C heatsink:
> >
> > Power = 50 deg.C / (0.07 deg.C/w) = 714 watts
> >
> >How much current is this with the nominal 2.5v drop?
> >
> > Current = 714 watts / 2.5v = 286 amps
> >
> >That feels a lot better! But it's still wrong! Why you ask? The 2.5V
> >drop is for 600A, not for 286A. It's also for 25*C junction, which is
> >obviously not true.
> >
> >Let's look at 350A. The graphs show less than 2V of drop for this
> >current at 100*C junction:
> >
> > Current = 714 watts / 2.0v = 357 amps
> >
> >So more than three times 118A would be okay for a typical module.
> >Sometimes you have to look a little more deeply into the datasheets!
> >
> >- Arthur
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> >>>Lee Hart wrote:
> >>This is a Powerex CM600HA-24H IGBT. It has a 2.5-3.4v on-state voltage,
> >>and a junction-to-heatsink resistance of about 0.07 deg.C/watt. Assume
> >>your heatsink is at 50 deg.C (121 deg.F), and has a thermal resistance
> >>of 0.1 deg.C/watt (which is very good), your total thermal resistance is
> >>0.17 deg.C/watt.
> >>
> >>You don't want the IGBT junction to be over 100 deg.C for reasonable
> >>life. So, the most you can have is 100-50= 50 deg.C from junction to
> >>ambient. How many watts can you dissipate?
> >>
> >> Power = 50 deg.C / (0.17 deg.C/w) = 294 watts
> >>
> >>How much current is this with the nominal 2.5v drop?
> >>
> >> Current = 294 watts / 2.5v = 118 amps
> >>
> >>So, the most this part can dissipate on a continuous duty basis is only
> >>118 amps. It would be even less when you add switching losses, or you
> >>you were unlucky and got a part that had the maximum 3.4v on-state drop.
> >>
> >>See what I mean about the huge gap between advertised marketing numbers
> >>and real-world performance?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From what I've seen, an EV pusher makes more sense than an ICE pusher... but
that's just me, I guess, and everyone's need would be different.
For the comment "there are modern cars converted"... mostly I've been seeing
cars that are 1/2 worn out that are converted. I've never seen a brand new
car that underwent an EV conversion. Perhaps your mileage differs.
For the next comment, drop it by the side of the road? Nope, I can't see any
reason to take an EV out of the driveway/garage, if it can't make the trip
on EV power. (The exception being when you are taking it to a distant show.)
For normal commuting, why use an EV if it can't get the range needed for the
daily drive... and have to rely on an ICE to take up the balance? Why drag
along ICE, just to make a daily journey? Leave it at home, and go with ICE
the whole trip. I'm sure you can explain the reason. To me, a drop of 20% in
ICE range (per gallon) as well as the electric cost... well, it doesn't make
much sense.
There are vehicles out there that compete quite well with EV for "world
saving." If one isn't concerned about heat in the cab (or having an
alternate system) something like the Bajaj might do well. Or go with the
diesel engine, running on bio? Those get around 80MPG on gas, slightly
better on diesel... and have much the same hardships many EVs have. <g>
Of course, it may not even be possible to use an EV pusher with today's ICE
cars, when you look at all the systems involved. Nothing works unless the
computer is running.
...just my thoughts... awaiting rebuttals.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just as a thought, you might place your rig on level ground when you park
it. Most cars shouldn't require much force to get them rolling... so leaning
against the car would give you an idea. If you can't get the car rolling
even by leaning hard, then it's not uncommon to "see" where the drag is at.
BTW, I had a Chevy that the calipers where the calipers would not release
properly. I ended up taking the calipers apart and polishing the pistons
with crocus cloth. I replaced the seals while I had them apart and used some
lube. Depending on the vehicle, some have very shiny pistons... others are
very cheap and roughly turned. I couldn't have removed enough material to
make a difference in the diameter, but it smoothed the roughness.
Did I catch that you'd just replaced the brakes? If not, I've seen some that
have rusted from sitting for even a month... and worse from sitting for
several months. The rust gets into the shoes and the disks/drums. There's
something about this rust that makes them tend to stick... even weeks after
the car is being operated. I've also seen cars where I've done brake work
and the springs were weak (drum brakes) so they might rub. Heat robs springs
of their tension, so replacing them fixed this example. Sticking brakes tend
to "cure" themselves, until the next time they are fully applied.
As I said... just my thoughts. If you eliminate rolling resistance, by
simply leaning on the car and seeing if it rolls, then that might be the
first step.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 2:16 PM
Subject: Re: motor roughness
> Thanks guys for the great quick advice.
>
> Maybe it is the brake being tight. The mechanic recently tightened the
> EBrake and who knows what the fronts are up to. He just freed up the
> calipers
>
> Well, I'll do the free wheel thing Jim advised to see and feel what I can.
>
> True, no noise nor anything out of the ordinary after the motor is
> rotating.
>
> Roland, what was the cost of all those modifications to your GE? just as a
> curiosity of what motor repairs are.
>
> Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
