EV Digest 6127
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Name my car... win a T Shirt ;)
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Name my car... win a T Shirt ;)
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Water heaters
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Name my car... win a T Shirt ;)
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Water heaters
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 'lectric leo on ebay
by "The Grinster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EV suppliers
by "Will Beckett \(becketts\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EV suppliers
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Battery voltages
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) GP Sub-C NiCd for racing
by john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery voltages
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Dual outlet opportunity charging
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Water heaters
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Water heaters
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Energy required to heat batteries
by "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Raptor issues?
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Energy required to heat batteries
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Water heaters
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Water heaters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Energy required to heat batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Water heaters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Water heaters
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Raptor issues?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Energy required to heat batteries
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 21:04:29 -0800 (PST), you wrote:
>Since it is a JET Electrica - How-bout:
I know call it Pikachu!! Oh, wait never mind. ;>
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it's Canary Yellow then how about "Tweety"
Chip Gribben
On Nov 12, 2006, at 11:35 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
Subject: Re: Name my car... win a T Shirt ;)
Since it is a JET Electrica - How-bout:
JETyello
YelloJET
JETbanana
BananaJET
or
CanaryJET --- with a logo that is a canary with propulsion along
the line
of what this brainiack had in mind in this article:
http://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Find-Freedom.htm?At=011639
Jimmy
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Chris,
I made my own water heater, using off the shelf units, but yes it will be
costly using industrial products and the way I did it, but this heater unit has
now been work for 21 years now.
For the heater unit, I use a diesel engine heater which is a stainless tube
that is about 2.5 inches in diameter and 18 inches long. You can get them in
240 VAC at 2500 watt or to 120 VAC at 1000 watt.
I used a 120 VAC water pump, a very small 1 gallion per minute that is used in
heating systems, it is self lubricated by the water.
I used a Honeywell aqualstat thermostate control that has a sensor that
inserted in the water jacket. I can adjust the temperature differential up to
40 degrees. I have my adjusted at 180 F off and 140 F on. This range keeps
the heater unit from short cycling.
The thermostate is control a NTE 40 amp 120 VAC solid state relay that
provides power to the heater unit.
I am using a 7kw 120 VAC 60 HZ DC-DC-DC-AC inverter unit, which is a rotating
alternator-inverter that is power off the motor pilot shaft.
There is also 50 amp transfer switch that is control by a selector switch on
the dash. I can choose commercial power for the preheating mode which heats up
the cab to over 80 degrees and than transfer to the on-board system.
There is also a expansion fill tank that is made from 3 inch copper pipe with
end caps solder on the ends. I solder on a standard radiator cap and and 3/4
inch brass pipe stubs into this tank.
The pump first supply the fluid to the heater core with 3/4 hoses that are
double insulated with A/C pipe foam which becomes about 3 inches in diameter.
The fluid comes back from the heater core to the expansion tank and than back
into the heater.
I am using about 3 gallons of anti-freeze and water mix which gives me some
volume. I test a 2400 watt heater at 240 volts with only two 3 foot lines to
heater core, with no holding tank. It would only take about a minute to bring
it to a boil and then it would short cycle every 15 seconds when I was running
0 degree air through the heater core.
The following is a formula I got from the American Boiler Company which I used
to design the amount of fluid needed for a certain temperature rise:
It takes 60 minutes to rise the temperature of 25 gallons of water 90 degrees F
with a 2500 watt heating element.
Therefore if you use 1 gallon then 60/25 = 2.4 minutes using 2500 watt unit.
I am using a 1000 watt unit, so this becomes (2.4 x 2500)/1000 = 6 mins to
rise 90 degrees in 6 mins.
Using 3 gallons this becomes 18 minutes. The 18 minutes is the initial time
for rising the temperature of the fluid, lets say from 30 degrees to 110
degrees. I find at 50 degrees, it will start to defrost the windshield.
Adjusting the thermostat to 200 degrees, requires another 6 minutes to rise it
a additional 90 degrees.
The thermostat is set at 40 degrees differential, this allows the temperature
of the fluid to drop to 160 degrees, which will turn on the heater again for
about 3 minutes. If you do not have a enough volume of fluid, you will short
cycle depending how much cold air you are bringing in.
At -30 below it would still short cycle in with a 30 seconds. So what I did
was to rework the heater doors so as not to bring in cold outside air which is
normal for a ICE which there temperatures can get up to 240 degrees. I
adjusted the vacuum operated heater doors so it would circulated the cable air.
Now I do not short cycle any longer, and my heater may only cycle once every
30 minutes.
All these units cost over $1500.00 back in 1985, so It may be better to
purchase a complete kit from Victor.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 10:59 PM
Subject: Water heaters
> Quick question: There is a manufacturer that makes water heaters for EVs
> in the 300 volt range. I need some heat in the truck this winter (for
> defrosting if nothing else) and need a unit, pref with an integrated pump
> and control.
>
> Any idea what it is?
>
> Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
More ideas for the yellow EVs
Banana Bolt
Jellow
Citi-Yell
Chip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
oooo, I like this one, full bridge so it can take ac or dc, diodes for
isolation?
need someone to ascii out a diagram that I can wrap my mind around :op
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: Water heaters
Mike Harvey wrote:
Metric Mind has some on their website. They're a bit pricey though, and
from what I've heard from folks that installed them is they take a long
time to heat up.
Slow warmup time is a frequent complaint against electric water heaters.
But here's a thought...
The water heater in your home is also slow to recover when it has a tank
of cold water to heat up. So, you leave it "on" all the time. Modern water
heater tanks are very well insulated, so the standby heat loss is very
low.
Why not do the same in your EV? Super-insulate the tank, and leave the
heater on (cycling on/off to maintain temperature) all the time. The extra
energy usage per day could be made very low, and provided by AC power
during your daily charging. Now you would have "instant" heat when you
start driving.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like this one:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/648
FWIW, I love my Lectric Leopard, but then mine has lots of upgrades,
including 96 volts.
Regards,
Constance in NC
grinning since Sept. '05
1980 Lectric Leopard
On 11/11/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
NOTE that the design which is shown has 8 + 8 batteries
(6 font, 10 rear) to give series/parallel configurations
for the contactor controller.
The pictures show 4 + 4 batteries, so besides being
more limited in range, it will also have low speed and
is not allowed on the Freeway. (Top speed 55 mph)
I have no knowledge of the motor (the ad lists "unknown")
and if it was changed together with the battery reconfig.
You may try to contact NEEAA if you are interested.
Bidding seem to have stopped at $900.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 2:12 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 'lectric leo on ebay
On 10 Nov 2006 at 8:43, Rush wrote:
> 1980 Renault Electric Leo[pard] Philadelphia...
>
> Ebay - 160050313915
I love the way they mounted the voltmeter and ammeter. Very stylish. A
true contemporary design statement.
http://tinyurl.com/y3ut4d
On 11 Nov 2006 at 0:52, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> The car looks nice it should go for about 5 to 7k.
Look again. It has some small to medium-size dents and what appears to be
some rust damage on one of the rear quarters. The seats appear to have been
fixed with some kind of vinyl seat covers.
There are also the considerable functional and safety limitations of a
Lectric Leopard. A few years ago it might have sold for $1k or so. Even
today I wouldn't pay over $2k for an EV like this, but that's me. It may go
for a few thousand. I'll be surprised to see 5-7k, but I could be wrong.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electro Automotive got slammed with ordered when gas prices started to go
up. Shari and Mike read this list in their free time (not much of that) so
it is possible you will see a reply here.
- Will
Aptos, CA 95003
(831) 688-8669
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Harvey
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV suppliers
Hey Sharon,
Might you be referring to Electro Auto. Has anyone heard from them in
person? I have a kit outstanding (ordered in August). They have not returned
calls or email for over a month. Frustrating....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon G Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: EV suppliers
>I have had that problem too, they hardly never called me back, their phone
>only had incoming, not out going, So as we started building more of these
>EVs, we started, getting away from buying from suppliers. the only thing I
>buy now is the controller, being a Warp dealer,and I make all my own
>parts,( couplers, adapters, motor mounts, in house, its a way for a
>business to keep over head down, I have sold some of my things over our web
>site, and have told costumers ,that I make them at nite, after I'm done in
>the garage building EVs all day long. They understand, and its only about a
>few days till I can mail them out.
> Here in Wichita theres always a real good bargain sale at Boeing's scrap
> yard sale, (all new stuff) contactors at any voltage and size,relays,
> battery ends buy the ton. battery cable, welding cable at a fraction of
> the retail price, and any size of aluminum you could think of, soft,
> aircraft grade, and hardened aircraft grade, doing this we can keep our
> prices the lowest there is,,and I always call back, it only takes one mad
> person to ruin a business, in such a small world as EVs
> Wayne & Sharon www.ev-blue.com the new site by Jay at go-wheel.com
>
>
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.2/528 - Release Date: 11/10/2006
2:31 PM
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.2/528 - Release Date: 11/10/2006
2:31 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
They have answered many of my E-Mails.
Curtis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Harvey
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV suppliers
Hey Sharon,
Might you be referring to Electro Auto. Has anyone heard from them in
person? I have a kit outstanding (ordered in August). They have not returned
calls or email for over a month. Frustrating....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon G Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: EV suppliers
>I have had that problem too, they hardly never called me back, their phone
>only had incoming, not out going, So as we started building more of these
>EVs, we started, getting away from buying from suppliers. the only thing I
>buy now is the controller, being a Warp dealer,and I make all my own
>parts,( couplers, adapters, motor mounts, in house, its a way for a
>business to keep over head down, I have sold some of my things over our web
>site, and have told costumers ,that I make them at nite, after I'm done in
>the garage building EVs all day long. They understand, and its only about a
>few days till I can mail them out.
> Here in Wichita theres always a real good bargain sale at Boeing's scrap
> yard sale, (all new stuff) contactors at any voltage and size,relays,
> battery ends buy the ton. battery cable, welding cable at a fraction of
> the retail price, and any size of aluminum you could think of, soft,
> aircraft grade, and hardened aircraft grade, doing this we can keep our
> prices the lowest there is,,and I always call back, it only takes one mad
> person to ruin a business, in such a small world as EVs
> Wayne & Sharon www.ev-blue.com the new site by Jay at go-wheel.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My battery pack consisting of 16 Trojan T105 is 4 months old, with 1500
miles driven.
One battery is consistently lower than the average voltage, even after
several equalizations, and separate charging.
One battery is consistently higher than the average voltage of the other
14 batteries of 6.523 volts.
At 72*F
the lower reads 6.48 volts with specific gravity of 1.258 per cell.
(After full charge and overnight resting)
the higher reads 6.55 volts with specific gravity of 1.273 per cell.
1. Is this a normal range?
2. Is voltage proportional to specific gravity?
3. What would be the effect of exchanging about 25 cc of acid from each
cell of the hotter battery with the lower battery.
John in Sylmar, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm looking to stuff a bunch of these batteries onto a pocket bike, the larger
mid bikes to be exact and am wondering what kind of performance i can get from
these. I'm looking to make them into 72 volt packs, about 14 total (840 cells)
and stuff them onto a pocket bike with a forklift motor of some sort and use
the bike for drag racing. How well will these cells perform?
http://www.gpina.com/pdf/GP160SCK_DS.pdf
---------------------------------
Want to start your own business? Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
The 6.48 volt at 1.258 sg is 90% charge
The 6.55 volt at 1.272 sq is 99.6% charge.
The 90% charge battery needs to have more acid or SO4 pull from the negative
plates, which will mix with the H2 which becomes more H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) in
the electrolyte.
Do not add a higher solution of electrolyte to a lower solution of electrolyte
otherwise no more acid will be pull, (charge) from the negative plates when you
get to the normal full charge voltage.
The 6.48 and 6.55 volt batteries may be a surface charge, they don't match the
full charge voltage (100%) which would be at 6.37 V for 1.277 sg and 90% at
6.31 V for 1.258 sg according to the Trojan battery charts.
See the Trojan battery care and maintenance at:
http://www.trojanbattery.com/customercare<http://www.trojanbattery.com/customercare>
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: JS<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:28 AM
Subject: Battery voltages
My battery pack consisting of 16 Trojan T105 is 4 months old, with 1500
miles driven.
One battery is consistently lower than the average voltage, even after
several equalizations, and separate charging.
One battery is consistently higher than the average voltage of the other
14 batteries of 6.523 volts.
At 72*F
the lower reads 6.48 volts with specific gravity of 1.258 per cell.
(After full charge and overnight resting)
the higher reads 6.55 volts with specific gravity of 1.273 per cell.
1. Is this a normal range?
2. Is voltage proportional to specific gravity?
3. What would be the effect of exchanging about 25 cc of acid from each
cell of the hotter battery with the lower battery.
John in Sylmar, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9 Nov 2006 at 12:06, mike golub wrote:
> If I double the outlets I could charge at ~30amps.
I think someone made the point that his could be hazardous (to you, possibly
to bystanders, and to your vehicle). But another concern occurs to me.
What about the other guy who can't plug his block heater in because you're
using the receptacle next to his parking space? Seems like it might be
considered impolite.
Besides, without isolation transformers, the person could pull your plug to
plug in his heater, and get a possibly fatal shock from it.
Also, if these receptacles are protected by GFIs, they may trip when you try
to use the receptacles this way.
With isolation transformers things are certainly safer. However, there is
still
a (rather remote) possibility of shock hazard should both rectifiers fail
shorted
in a particular way.
I think this is a rather risky enterprise you're contemplating.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Nov 2006 at 10:38, Lee Hart wrote:
> The water heater in your home is also slow to recover when it has a tank of
> cold water to heat up. So, you leave it "on" all the time.
And that 40 or 50 gallons of water on standby is considered to be a waste of
energy! The energy-conserving solution for homes and businesses is the
tankless demand water heater, which uses a high-output gas burner or
electric element to heat the water as it's needed.
I suspect that (except for possibly the MES heaters Victor offers) most
people who do this are using some variant on diesel preheaters. These are
designed to run for hours at a time, so there's no need for them to heat up
quickly. That might be why they don't. ;-)
OTOH, "flash" demand home water heaters >are< designed to heat water
instantly. I wonder if one could be used for an EV. Most of them are 240
volts, a bit high for mainstream conversions; but here's a 3.5kw, 120v water
heater that fits under a sink. No doubt you'd have to rework the control
scheme to use it on DC, but I'll bet that wouldn't be too hard. Another issue
is whether it would be happy with an antifreeze solution (I don't know why it
wouldn't be) :
http://www.mytanklesswaterheaters.com/eemax-SP3512.html
Of course, a ceramic element fitted right to the EVs heater housing is about
as "on demand" as you can get. ;-)
A water-based system does have a couple of advantages over a ceramic
core. It eliminates the need to dismantle the instrument panel, and does
away with any concerns about debris causing flashover in the ceramic
element. On the other hand, you're back to having more liquids and more
chances for leaks in your EV (remember the VW beetle ads touting "no
coolant to leak"?). And it takes up a fair bit of room under the hood - about
a
battery's worth, I'd say (more than the MES heaters).
What a bloody shame (there are other words I could use) that nobody had a
chance to scrounge those heat pump systems out of the GM EV1s before
they got sent to the crusher. (Not to mention drive systems, power steering,
DC:DCs, etc.; I could go on and on. Sigh.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: Water heaters
> Mike Harvey wrote:
> > Metric Mind has some on their website. They're a bit pricey though, and
> > from what I've heard from folks that installed them is they take a long
> > time to heat up.
>
> Slow warmup time is a frequent complaint against electric water heaters.
> But here's a thought...
>
> The water heater in your home is also slow to recover when it has a tank
> of cold water to heat up. So, you leave it "on" all the time. Modern
> water heater tanks are very well insulated, so the standby heat loss is
> very low.
>
> Why not do the same in your EV? Super-insulate the tank, and leave the
> heater on (cycling on/off to maintain temperature) all the time. The
> extra energy usage per day could be made very low, and provided by AC
> power during your daily charging. Now you would have "instant" heat when
> you start driving.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
> Hi EVerybody;
Yeah! I LIKE that idea. Was thinking of taking a HWH heating element and
putting it in a tomato juice size "tank" and throwing it on when going to
drive car. With a small circulating pump, using the existing Heater core. If
the element hasta only heat a gallon or two of water, it would heat up
quick?Lee's idea is probably a tad better as you could " float" a say 5 gal.
tank whuile the car is being charged so everything would be nice an' warm
when ya set out.Finding space up front could be an issue? But ya COULD put a
tank in the trunk?
BUT ARE there cute, small, tank water heaters that you could buy ready
made? Seems Home Despot and Blowes have Big Apartment or "SUV" house type.
Don't see any little portable ones you could just carry under your arm size.
And would they " keep up" with a car's heating demands?Maybe with that
"Thing " I describe, in series with it?Or A POU type Point of use, ya see
being sold for "Instant" HWH?
Just a few ideas as it IS getting to be the season.
My Two Watts(BTU'S) worth
Bob
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.3/530 - Release Date: 11/11/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
I've been trying to find out how much heat it will take to warm up a battery
pack. Like how many watts/pound of batteries to rise X degrees over Y minutes.
I've got 180W of heating elements on 88 pounds of batteries. A few hours of
warming doesn't seem to do a lot.
Anybody know the math behind this?
Darin
BadFishRacing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are there any incentives or tax credits for doing a conversion in GA?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Andrew,
Andrew A. wrote:
So, has anyone else out there had issues with the
Raptor? If so, what was the application (i.e.,
voltage, amp draw, type of vehicle, etc.)? Any help
would be greatly appreciated.
I had a Raptor 600 in my Jeep Cherokee for a while running off of a
160-Volt nominal system. The only major problem I had with it was that
the pin connectors between the control board and power board in the case
became corroded and as a result a pin in one of the sockets broke.
This then intermittent connection between the boards caused all sorts of
weird problems, from the controller providing no power to the motor, to
cutting in and out abruptly, to thinking it was overheating and severely
throttling back the motor current, etc. Several talented friends from
AustinEV helped me by replacing both pin socket connectors on the
control board, and that fixed all of the problems I was having.
Though I did later upgrade to a Zilla 1K controller because I wanted a
higher-current controller mainly so I could increase my low-end torque
and thus acceleration.
Hope that helps,
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A quick web search shows specific heat of lead is 129 J/(kg*K). Water
is 4,186 J/(kg*K).
Specific heat of the acid should be close to water.
This is interesting. While the mass of the battery is mostly lead, the
effect of water is so much higher that the ratio of lead to water with
that battery's construction is going to make a significant difference.
Let's say 3/4 of the mass of the battery is lead, the 1/4 is water, for
a net of 1143 J/(kg*K). I pulled this number out of my ass. Feel free
to debate it. I believe a gelled battery probably used less acid than a
flooded and thus would have a much lower heat capacity- potentially by
several times.
Let's see... 88 lbs of batteries= 40 kg.
180w for 1 hr= 648,000 J
This should have been enough to raise the batteries 14C, or 25.5F, per
hour, for a 1143 J/(kg*K).
Possible reasons why they wouldn't heat up:
1. The heating element is not running anywhere near 180W.
2. The heat is transferring to the air and not into the batteries' mass.
3. The heat is transferring into the battery's mass, but the battery is
being cooled down by its exposed surface area so it never achieves a
much warmer temp than the surrounding air.
Danny
BFRListmail wrote:
Hello all,
I've been trying to find out how much heat it will take to warm up a battery
pack. Like how many watts/pound of batteries to rise X degrees over Y minutes.
I've got 180W of heating elements on 88 pounds of batteries. A few hours of warming doesn't seem to do a lot.
Anybody know the math behind this?
Darin
BadFishRacing
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There are under-the-sink "instant", "point of use" hot water heaters.
I do not think you need- or want- a tank. Unless it's a very large tank
heated initially by house electricity, a tank would only slow down how
long it takes to get heat out of the vents and mean that at the end of
the drive a lot of electricity was used to heat up the tank's thermal
mass but it's just going to be left to cool down and be wasted in the end.
Danny
BUT ARE there cute, small, tank water heaters that you could buy ready
made? Seems Home Despot and Blowes have Big Apartment or "SUV" house type.
Don't see any little portable ones you could just carry under your arm size.
And would they " keep up" with a car's heating demands?Maybe with that
"Thing " I describe, in series with it?Or A POU type Point of use, ya see
being sold for "Instant" HWH?
Just a few ideas as it IS getting to be the season.
My Two Watts(BTU'S) worth
Bob
--
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Mark McCurdy wrote:
oooo, I like this one, full bridge so it can take ac or dc, diodes for
isolation?
need someone to ascii out a diagram that I can wrap my mind around :op
There is nothing in a heater that necessarily cares whether it is
powered from AC or DC. The circuit for a water heater is just a heating
element in series with a thermostat switch, and an overtemperature
cutout switch.
The simplest scheme would be to use DC-rated switches for each of these,
and connect it directly across the battery pack. It is DC powered
while you are driving, and AC powered (via your charger) while parked
and charging.
But this simple scheme only works if you have a "dumb" charger; a
"smart" charger will probably get confused by the current being drawn by
the heater, and screw up. The fix for this is to have a relay that is AC
powered when you plug in. This relay's contacts disconnect the heater
from DC (the pack) and connect it instead to AC power.
I'd also include a voltage-sensing relay to turn it off in case the
battery pack voltage fell below (say) 50% state of charge, just to keep
it from killing the pack if you left your EV parked without charging it
for weeks.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BFRListmail wrote:
I've been trying to find out how much heat it will take to warm up
a battery pack. Like how many watts/pound of batteries to rise X
degrees over Y minutes.
The amount of heat has nothing to do with the weight of batteries. It is
entirely determined by the surface area of the battery box, and how well
insulated it is. In other words, it takes exactly the same amount of
heat to keep a box of air at (say) 70 deg.F as a box full of lead.
What the heater wattage *does* do is determine how *long* it takes to
bring the battery box's contents up to temperature. An empty box comes
up to temperature quickly; a box full of heavy batteries might take days.
I've got 180W of heating elements on 88 pounds of batteries.
A few hours of warming doesn't seem to do a lot.
That's plenty of heat if there is any insulation at all. Don't give up
to too soon. It could take a day or more for the temperature to stabilize.
> Anybody know the math behind this?
Sure!
1. Calculate the surface area of your battery box. Let's say it is
1' x 2' x 3'. Then the total surface area is 6 sq.ft.
2. Find the R value of the material that your battery box is made of.
For example, suppose it is R4 (about a 1" thickness of styrafoam).
3. Decide what battery temperature you want, and the lowest outside
temperature. For example, 70 deg.F batteries at 10 deg.F outside.
This defines the temperature difference; 70 - 10 = 60 deg.F.
4. Now we have enough to calculate the number of BTU/hr needed.
BTU/hr = sq.ft x deg.F / R
= 6 sq.ft x 60 deg.F / 4
= 90 BTU/hr
5. BTU/hr can be directly converted to watts.
BTU/hr x 0.29287 = watts
90 x 0.29287 = 26.4 watts
Thus, all it takes is a 27 watt heater to hold the batteries in this box
at 70 deg.F when the outside temperature is 10 deg.F. Not much, is it!
However, starting from a "cold start" (batteries at 10 deg.F), it will
take a couple days for this heater to bring the batteries up to 70 deg.F.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
The water heater in your home is also slow to recover when it has a tank of
cold water to heat up. So, you leave it "on" all the time.
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
And that 40 or 50 gallons of water on standby is considered to be
a waste of energy! The energy-conserving solution for homes and
businesses is the tankless demand water heater, which uses a high-output
gas burner or electric element to heat the water as it's needed.
The reality is a lot more complicated than the idealists believe.
Whether a hot water tank or a demand heater is more efficient depends
heavily on your particular circumstances, and the particular heaters you
are comparing.
Electric heaters are essentially 100% efficient; so this eliminates the
burner efficiency differences that you have with gas-fired water
heaters. (With gas burners, the balance can tip either way depending on
burner efficiency.)
A demand heater has lower efficiency, because there isn't time for all
the heat to be transferred to the water as it passes through. Thus, a
hot water tank heater has higher efficiency, all things being equal, and
if its standby losses are zero.
But, a hot water tank *does* have standby losses. These losses are
determined by how long it stands, and how good its insulation is. With
modern insulation and construction, you can make these standby losses
very low. (See my previous post on how little heat it can take to keep
quite a large tank warm.)
So, if you only rarely use hot water (a couple times a week), a demand
heater will win. If you use hot water many times a day, a hot water tank
heater will win. In between these extremes, either one can win
(efficiency wise) depending on the details.
For an EV, you'd want a super-insulated water tank. That means something
like a thermos bottle with vacuum insulation, or several inches of
styrafoam, or equivalent.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
Yeah! I LIKE that idea. Was thinking of taking a HWH heating element
and putting it in a tomato juice size "tank" and throwing it on when
going to drive car. With a small circulating pump, using the existing Heater
core. If
the element hasta only heat a gallon or two of water, it would heat up
quick?
That's the standard solution. A "demand heater".
Lee's idea is probably a tad better as you could " float" a say 5 gal.
tank whuile the car is being charged so everything would be nice an'
warm when ya set out.
This idea assumes a very well insulated tank, with a heater that is
powered as needed to keep the water in the tank at the desired
temperature. The size of the tank is arbitrary; 5 gallons or 0.5 gallons
can work just as well. It all depends on how much heat you need when
driving; if you need (say) 2kw of heat, then you need a 2kw heating
element, or the heater will lose ground if operated continuously.
But are there cute, small, tank water heaters that you could buy ready
made?
Sure; but these often have poor insulation.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just for the record, Peter values customer loyalty,
and has arrived at a mutually agreeable solution to
the 600 series controller issue. Unfortunately, I'll
need to wait a bit for that EV grin...
peace,
--- Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Andrew A. wrote:
> > So, has anyone else out there had issues with the
> > Raptor? If so, what was the application (i.e.,
> > voltage, amp draw, type of vehicle, etc.)? Any
> help
> > would be greatly appreciated.
>
> I had a Raptor 600 in my Jeep Cherokee for a while
> running off of a
> 160-Volt nominal system. The only major problem I
> had with it was that
> the pin connectors between the control board and
> power board in the case
> became corroded and as a result a pin in one of the
> sockets broke.
>
> This then intermittent connection between the boards
> caused all sorts of
> weird problems, from the controller providing no
> power to the motor, to
> cutting in and out abruptly, to thinking it was
> overheating and severely
> throttling back the motor current, etc. Several
> talented friends from
> AustinEV helped me by replacing both pin socket
> connectors on the
> control board, and that fixed all of the problems I
> was having.
>
> Though I did later upgrade to a Zilla 1K controller
> because I wanted a
> higher-current controller mainly so I could increase
> my low-end torque
> and thus acceleration.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> --
> -Nick
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> http://www.ACEAA.org/
> --------------------------
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dmitri,
Here is a site that has many states with their incentives.
Curtis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dmitri
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 12:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
Are there any incentives or tax credits for doing a conversion in GA?
--- End Message ---
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I get 22 sq ft on a 1X2X3 foot box. 6 sides 6+6+2+2+3+3. If the question is
heating up the mass, then certainly the specific heat of the substance being
heated is involved. Batteries will take many more BTUs to heat them up than are
required for heating the same volume of air. Your calculations have to do with
maintaining the temperature. Balancing the heat loss.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 5:26:11 PM
Subject: Re: Energy required to heat batteries
BFRListmail wrote:
> I've been trying to find out how much heat it will take to warm up
> a battery pack. Like how many watts/pound of batteries to rise X
> degrees over Y minutes.
The amount of heat has nothing to do with the weight of batteries. It is
entirely determined by the surface area of the battery box, and how well
insulated it is. In other words, it takes exactly the same amount of
heat to keep a box of air at (say) 70 deg.F as a box full of lead.
What the heater wattage *does* do is determine how *long* it takes to
bring the battery box's contents up to temperature. An empty box comes
up to temperature quickly; a box full of heavy batteries might take days.
> I've got 180W of heating elements on 88 pounds of batteries.
> A few hours of warming doesn't seem to do a lot.
That's plenty of heat if there is any insulation at all. Don't give up
to too soon. It could take a day or more for the temperature to stabilize.
> Anybody know the math behind this?
Sure!
1. Calculate the surface area of your battery box. Let's say it is
1' x 2' x 3'. Then the total surface area is 6 sq.ft.
2. Find the R value of the material that your battery box is made of.
For example, suppose it is R4 (about a 1" thickness of styrafoam).
3. Decide what battery temperature you want, and the lowest outside
temperature. For example, 70 deg.F batteries at 10 deg.F outside.
This defines the temperature difference; 70 - 10 = 60 deg.F.
4. Now we have enough to calculate the number of BTU/hr needed.
BTU/hr = sq.ft x deg.F / R
= 6 sq.ft x 60 deg.F / 4
= 90 BTU/hr
5. BTU/hr can be directly converted to watts.
BTU/hr x 0.29287 = watts
90 x 0.29287 = 26.4 watts
Thus, all it takes is a 27 watt heater to hold the batteries in this box
at 70 deg.F when the outside temperature is 10 deg.F. Not much, is it!
However, starting from a "cold start" (batteries at 10 deg.F), it will
take a couple days for this heater to bring the batteries up to 70 deg.F.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
Lee Hart wrote:
Nick Viera wrote:
Someone (Lee?) messed up their quoting. I did *not* say "No
programming head or computer needed." with regards to the programming
of motor controllers. In fact, I said the opposite, that I actually
*favor* software programming as opposed to analog settings (i.e.
potentiometers, DIP Switches, etc). This is a feature I really like
about the Zillas.
Are you aware that the Zilla is actually TWO separate boxes? One is the
motor controller itself -- it's basically a dumb box, like the Curtis.
The second is the "hairball" -- it has the computer.
Sure I'm aware that the Zilla is a 2 unit system... I've had one in my
Jeep for a couple years now (read my website). And my understanding of
the Zilla is that *both* the controller box and the Hairball box contain
software-driven microcontrollers which communicate and cross-check each
other. If this is true, I'd hardly call the controller part of the Zilla
a "dumb box." :-)
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
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