EV Digest 6128
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Energy required to heat batteries
by "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Water heaters
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Energy required to heat batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Energy required to heat batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Cafe Electric blog
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Water heaters
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Water heaters
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV suppliers
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Water heaters
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Water heaters
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Water heaters
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Defensless Driving WAS Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Danny,
This is what I was looking for. I guess I should have looked further before
asking. The NREL website listed some Battery Heating tests with
976J/(Kg*Deg C). So you've got some pretty good bar napkin calculations.
As far as Lee's data to maintain battery temperature, that wasn't really
what I was after.
I should have clarified my requirements. This is on my drag bike. There
isn't an actual battery box. Batteries on heated on a few random sides.
What little 'insulation' I do have is corrogated plastic. The heating is to
bring the battery up to a higher temperature. I'm not worried about
maintaining that temperature, as I will keep the heaters on until a few
minutes before a run.
So the problem are probably as Danny described:
Heater not fully contacting the battery, and heat is going into the air
instead of the battery.
Also, this heating is probably not very uniform.
OK, here's my other problem, I often turn on the heaters on the way to the
drag strip. What heat I'm putting into the pack is being taken out by the
65MPH wind.
Sounds like I'm on the right track, just a few things to enhance.
Thanks all.
Darin
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Energy required to heat batteries
A quick web search shows specific heat of lead is 129 J/(kg*K). Water is
4,186 J/(kg*K).
Specific heat of the acid should be close to water.
This is interesting. While the mass of the battery is mostly lead, the
effect of water is so much higher that the ratio of lead to water with
that battery's construction is going to make a significant difference.
Let's say 3/4 of the mass of the battery is lead, the 1/4 is water, for a
net of 1143 J/(kg*K). I pulled this number out of my ass. Feel free to
debate it. I believe a gelled battery probably used less acid than a
flooded and thus would have a much lower heat capacity- potentially by
several times.
Let's see... 88 lbs of batteries= 40 kg.
180w for 1 hr= 648,000 J
This should have been enough to raise the batteries 14C, or 25.5F, per
hour, for a 1143 J/(kg*K).
Possible reasons why they wouldn't heat up:
1. The heating element is not running anywhere near 180W.
2. The heat is transferring to the air and not into the batteries' mass.
3. The heat is transferring into the battery's mass, but the battery is
being cooled down by its exposed surface area so it never achieves a much
warmer temp than the surrounding air.
Danny
BFRListmail wrote:
Hello all,
I've been trying to find out how much heat it will take to warm up a
battery pack. Like how many watts/pound of batteries to rise X degrees
over Y minutes.
I've got 180W of heating elements on 88 pounds of batteries. A few hours
of warming doesn't seem to do a lot.
Anybody know the math behind this?
Darin BadFishRacing
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There used to be, but I don't think so any more.
Steve
Norcross, GA
Dmitri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Are there any incentives or tax credits for doing a conversion in GA?
---------------------------------
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it's good to point out that, besides the power level
of the heater element, only the total amount of water in the
system will impact how long it takes until you get heat.
(If you do not have the continuous heated version).
So, if you have a 2-gallon system with a 4 kW heater and
get heat after 10 minutes, then a 1-gallon system will give
heat after 5 minutes while a 0.4 gallon system will start
already after 2 minutes.
That is why a ceramic heater has instant heat: it has no
heat capacity to speak of, that needs to be heated first.
So, if your heater core and plumbing has 0.2 gallon contents
and you can find a way to not add water volume but do add
the room to expand the water when heated by using a tiny
air tank iso water tank (can be just some length of pipe
above the rest of the system and closed off) then the same
4kW flow-through water heater can give you heat in 1 minute.
If you don't like the 4kW drain, you can go to 2kW or lower
and compromise on the time it takes to get heat...
Note that you will need a good thermostat controlling a
DC relay to control the heater on/off. You will also need a
heat resistant water pump (12V).
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 2:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Water heaters
Bob Rice wrote:
> Yeah! I LIKE that idea. Was thinking of taking a HWH heating element
> and putting it in a tomato juice size "tank" and throwing it on when
> going to drive car. With a small circulating pump, using the existing
Heater core. If
> the element hasta only heat a gallon or two of water, it would heat up
> quick?
That's the standard solution. A "demand heater".
> Lee's idea is probably a tad better as you could " float" a say 5 gal.
> tank whuile the car is being charged so everything would be nice an'
> warm when ya set out.
This idea assumes a very well insulated tank, with a heater that is
powered as needed to keep the water in the tank at the desired
temperature. The size of the tank is arbitrary; 5 gallons or 0.5 gallons
can work just as well. It all depends on how much heat you need when
driving; if you need (say) 2kw of heat, then you need a 2kw heating
element, or the heater will lose ground if operated continuously.
> But are there cute, small, tank water heaters that you could buy ready
> made?
Sure; but these often have poor insulation.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: BFRListmail<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 4:52 PM
Subject: Re: Energy required to heat batteries
So your battery is out in the ambient air, then its best to use a electric
heater blanket that wraps around the battery. I used one for my 12 volt
accessory battery in my EV and in the ICE. They are 80 watts at 120 volts.
I would leave it plug in all nite long and I had no problem setting out side
at work in temperatures of -30 F or more.
My heater blanket which is made by KAT's which I got from a auto parts store.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
I get 22 sq ft on a 1X2X3 foot box. 6 sides 6+6+2+2+3+3.
Oops! You are correct. I typed too fast and proofread too little.
A 1' x 2' x 3' box has six sides:
left 1' x 2' = 2 sq.ft
right 1' x 2' = 2 sq.ft
front 1' x 3' = 3 sq.ft
back 1' x 3' = 3 sq.ft
top 2' x 3' = 6 sq.ft
bottom 2' x 3' = 6 sq.ft
--
total 22 sq.ft
Correcting my previous calculations:
1. Calculate the surface area of your battery box.
22 sq.ft
2. Find the R value of the material that your battery box is made of.
R4 (1" thickness of styrafoam)
3. Decide what battery temperature you want, and the lowest outside
temperature.
70 - 10 = 60 deg.F
4. Now we have enough to calculate the number of BTU/hr needed.
BTU/hr = sq.ft x deg.F / R
= 22 sq.ft x 60 deg.F / 4
= 330 BTU/hr
5. BTU/hr can be directly converted to watts.
BTU/hr x 0.29287 = watts
330 x 0.29287 = 96.6 watts
Thus, it takes a 100 watt heater to hold the batteries in this box
at 70 deg.F when the outside temperature is 10 deg.F.
--
"I made a mistake once. I thought I was wrong, but it turned out I was
right after all." :-)
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Viera wrote:
Sure I'm aware that the Zilla is a 2 unit system... I've had one in my
Jeep for a couple years now (read my website). And my understanding of
the Zilla is that *both* the controller box and the Hairball box contain
software-driven microcontrollers which communicate and cross-check each
other. If this is true, I'd hardly call the controller part of the Zilla
a "dumb box." :-)
Otmar, do you have your "ears on?" Would you like to elaborate on the
division of labor between the Zilla controller and Hairball?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 12, 2006, at 4:28 PM, Curtis Muhlestein wrote:
Dmitri,
Here is a site that has many states with their incentives.
Curtis
Where?
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd say it does not really matter whether the power box
(to avoid that confusing term 'controller' for the
split-architecture as present in the Zilla)
is controlled by a micro-controller or that it just is a
bundle of analog and digital hardware, the deciding
factor may be if the power box can be 'reprogrammed' but
this is not necessary with the smartness in the Hairball
and the power-handling stuff in the power box.
The power box can take and provide simple PWM signals
to indicate the relative size of signals,
That way it is very easy and cheap to interface, the
power box can limit all parameters to the max physically
allowed, like motor current, while the Hairball can easily
tell the power controller to limit to a lower level by
providing a lower percentage PWM signal on the motor
current control line.
The power controller does not necessarily need a
micro controller to process these signals, as an analog
power stage may very well be able to do this.
Since I read on the Cafe Electric site that the Zilla
has "Multiple Microprocessors", I assume that the
power box has its own processor, even though it may
be the Hairball that has more than one processor.
Disclaimer: I have never seen so much as a scope trace
of the interface signals, nor have any first hand
experience with it, but the manual shows an Ethernet
style cable between power box and Hairball.
This suggests, but does not confirm, that the power
box as well as the Hairball have an Ethernet controller
and communicate to each other via this bus.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 3:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
Nick Viera wrote:
> Sure I'm aware that the Zilla is a 2 unit system... I've had one in my
> Jeep for a couple years now (read my website). And my understanding of
> the Zilla is that *both* the controller box and the Hairball box contain
> software-driven microcontrollers which communicate and cross-check each
> other. If this is true, I'd hardly call the controller part of the Zilla
> a "dumb box." :-)
Otmar, do you have your "ears on?" Would you like to elaborate on the
division of labor between the Zilla controller and Hairball?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, here it is.
http://www.hybridcars.com/local-incentives/region-by-region.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 9:04 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
On Nov 12, 2006, at 4:28 PM, Curtis Muhlestein wrote:
> Dmitri,
>
> Here is a site that has many states with their incentives.
>
> Curtis
Where?
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I do not know if it was already mentioned on the list
before, but I discovered that Otmar has status updates
on the Zillas in backorder at his Blog:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/blog/
Last entry Oct 31 about losing one of the 14 Z2K's
in quality control.
The blog has an RSS feed, in case you like the news
be delivered to your PC.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 4 kW MES water heater I use in ACRX is very comfortable -
I start feel warmth coming out in about 30 sec after "on" and
in about 1-1.5 min it's as hot as it will get. Much faster than
ICE version anyway.
Granted, not as quick as ceramic element heater, but no one who
use water heater one died yet from freezing.
Would I want it to warm up quicker? Sure. 5 sec would be nice.
1 sec even nicer. But, personally, it makes no difference
in my "EV life".
The cost is different story, but I can tell you this: installing
$600 unit takes about 1 hour and you don't take your dash apart.
Making and installing ceramic heater will take more than one day,
which may or may not make sense depending how much your time worth.
I can't afford to drop everything else I'm doing and start installing
ceramic heater. It's a solid week of EV down time and lost business.
Far more than $600 for me.
If you love take your EV apart and put it back together, and have
great satisfaction of saving money than saving time, or just
absolutely cannot put up waiting 30-60 sec, water heater
is probably not for you. Ceramic heater would be fine choice if made
with all the safety components integrated just like water heaters
come with.
FWIW, I'm not aware or any OEM EV using ceramic heaters. Just back
from EVS22 where I looked at this very thing and asked around.
No one uses them.
That's not to say it is a bad choice for a conversion, OEMs
apparently have different priorities vs. hobbyists.
Victor
p.s. Re-reading this does sound like biased marketing plug. But it's
just an info. EVDL is wrong place to advertise such things, so I keep
quiet, just sometimes letting people know when something new becomes
available so they know have one more choice. Nothing more.
Lee Hart wrote:
Mike Harvey wrote:
Metric Mind has some on their website. They're a bit pricey though,
and from what I've heard from folks that installed them is they take a
long time to heat up.
Slow warmup time is a frequent complaint against electric water heaters.
But here's a thought...
The water heater in your home is also slow to recover when it has a tank
of cold water to heat up. So, you leave it "on" all the time. Modern
water heater tanks are very well insulated, so the standby heat loss is
very low.
Why not do the same in your EV? Super-insulate the tank, and leave the
heater on (cycling on/off to maintain temperature) all the time. The
extra energy usage per day could be made very low, and provided by AC
power during your daily charging. Now you would have "instant" heat when
you start driving.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Disclaimer: I have never seen so much as a scope trace
of the interface signals, nor have any first hand
experience with it, but the manual shows an Ethernet
style cable between power box and Hairball.
This suggests, but does not confirm, that the power
box as well as the Hairball have an Ethernet controller
and communicate to each other via this bus.
Cat5 or 6 cable (4 twisted pairs) and the familiar RJ ends are used for
many many *many* things. They are great for carrying any serial bus, and
are typically used for analog signals in professionally installed alarm
systems. Heck, we run audio/video through them as well as full computer
terminal signals (VGA, USB, and RS232).
So you shouldn't infer anything in particular from their presence,
except that the designer wanted a good frequency range, decent noise
rejection and easy to find building materials...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh forgot to mention. There are some other things to note for a
closed-loop hot water system.
1. This is going to be left in the cold, thus some sort of antifreeze
will probably be necessary so it doesn't ice over. Most likely
propylene glycol (car antifreeze). It would be wise to ensure all your
components will handle the antifreeze, this is not the normal job for an
electric instant water heater but I'd guess it wouldn't have a problem.
2. A temp/pressure relief valve is necessary. If the circulating pump
fails and boils the water it needs to vent (preferrably not on the
passenger's feet or anything).
3. There's a possibility of a need for an expansion or overflow
chamber. Hot water expands slightly, I'd hope rubber hoses would just
stretch a bit to accomodate the new volume without making high
pressure. In some (improbable) conditions when the power is cut off to
the pump and heating element the residual heat in the element can still
boil the now-still water around it making high pressure.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I'm glad to hear they're still in operation. Just get a bit nervous
when your prepaid supplies are 30+ days overdue and no reponse from the
supplier for weeks. Maybe it's time for some temporary help. Maybe I should
take a week off and fly out to help. I'd hope they got around to responding
to my inquiries before I heard from them "on the list".
----- Original Message -----
From: "Will Beckett (becketts)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: RE: EV suppliers
Electro Automotive got slammed with ordered when gas prices started to go
up. Shari and Mike read this list in their free time (not much of that)
so
it is possible you will see a reply here.
- Will
Aptos, CA 95003
(831) 688-8669
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Harvey
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 7:19 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EV suppliers
Hey Sharon,
Might you be referring to Electro Auto. Has anyone heard from them in
person? I have a kit outstanding (ordered in August). They have not
returned
calls or email for over a month. Frustrating....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sharon G Alexander" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 9:11 PM
Subject: RE: EV suppliers
I have had that problem too, they hardly never called me back, their phone
only had incoming, not out going, So as we started building more of these
EVs, we started, getting away from buying from suppliers. the only thing I
buy now is the controller, being a Warp dealer,and I make all my own
parts,( couplers, adapters, motor mounts, in house, its a way for a
business to keep over head down, I have sold some of my things over our
web
site, and have told costumers ,that I make them at nite, after I'm done in
the garage building EVs all day long. They understand, and its only about
a
few days till I can mail them out.
Here in Wichita theres always a real good bargain sale at Boeing's
scrap
yard sale, (all new stuff) contactors at any voltage and size,relays,
battery ends buy the ton. battery cable, welding cable at a fraction of
the retail price, and any size of aluminum you could think of, soft,
aircraft grade, and hardened aircraft grade, doing this we can keep our
prices the lowest there is,,and I always call back, it only takes one mad
person to ruin a business, in such a small world as EVs
Wayne & Sharon www.ev-blue.com the new site by Jay at go-wheel.com
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Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.2/528 - Release Date: 11/10/2006
2:31 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, after you install all these safety features, aren't you up way over a
day's work to install? Hard to beat the ceramic argument. Yes, it's about a
day to convert to ceramic, but if you use the right parts, it's pretty
brainless. I guess that's why they're more popular in retrofit EVs. Well,
that and the obvious difference in price and system complexity, and weight,
and...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 3:13 AM
Subject: Re: Water heaters
Oh forgot to mention. There are some other things to note for a
closed-loop hot water system.
1. This is going to be left in the cold, thus some sort of antifreeze
will probably be necessary so it doesn't ice over. Most likely propylene
glycol (car antifreeze). It would be wise to ensure all your components
will handle the antifreeze, this is not the normal job for an electric
instant water heater but I'd guess it wouldn't have a problem.
2. A temp/pressure relief valve is necessary. If the circulating pump
fails and boils the water it needs to vent (preferrably not on the
passenger's feet or anything).
3. There's a possibility of a need for an expansion or overflow chamber.
Hot water expands slightly, I'd hope rubber hoses would just stretch a bit
to accomodate the new volume without making high pressure. In some
(improbable) conditions when the power is cut off to the pump and heating
element the residual heat in the element can still boil the now-still
water around it making high pressure.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The switch used on the stock heater control is a thyristor which will
not work on DC. It won't be able to turn off. You can replace that
with a relay or MOSFET.
The thermal overload may be a mechanical on-off switch (rare) or a
one-time thermal fuse. In either case there is a concern about their
ability to interrupt a DC current.
There's a bit of an issue to worry about in terms of voltage vs power.
With the heater resistance more or less constant (not sure how true this
is for a water heater) the power output varies with the square of the
voltage. So a pack at 144V is 171% of the heat at 110V. This can be
significant. Presumably you'd use a temp control to turn the power off
as it heats up, but without a PWM scheme it can confuse the Peukert
capacity for the pack by drawing large currents for a few sec or minutes
then shutting off. A more constant draw is preferrable to long-period
on-off cycles.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
Mark McCurdy wrote:
oooo, I like this one, full bridge so it can take ac or dc, diodes
for isolation?
need someone to ascii out a diagram that I can wrap my mind around :op
There is nothing in a heater that necessarily cares whether it is
powered from AC or DC. The circuit for a water heater is just a
heating element in series with a thermostat switch, and an
overtemperature cutout switch.
The simplest scheme would be to use DC-rated switches for each of
these, and connect it directly across the battery pack. It is DC
powered while you are driving, and AC powered (via your charger) while
parked and charging.
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Actually I saw a show on the Discovery Channel that said companies are
taking CO2 and pumping it into oil wells to increase production. We get
more oil from the existing well and we get rid of many tons of CO2 in
the process. I think it is a win win, at least in the short term.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 13:32
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
I have never heard of any plan which could in any way lessen the amount
of CO2 produced per ton of coal. We burn carbon to make CO2. The CO2
can't be reformed into carbon without putting all the energy you took
out of it back in.
What I have heard of is "sequestering", the idea that you can capture
the vast amounts of CO2 and pump them into a huge underground cavern or
something. I have a hard time picturing a large enough empty space for
that to happen, immense volumes of gaseous CO2 are involved. There are
serious questions as to whether the CO2 will be contained there forever
or if it will just eventually leak back out creating the same problem.
Since people are demanding plants make less CO2 yet nothing can actually
be done to make any less CO2 other than make the plant a bit more
efficient, it has a lot of appeal to power companies. If it's not going
to hold the CO2 forever (or at least until we stop burning fossil fuels
because we switch to cold fusion, we run out of fossil fuels and go back
to horse-drawn plows, or we just die off) then it's not solving anything
and thus it's just a huge scam.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
>>Hmm - this doesn't pass the smell test. What are they doing to
>>eliminate 99% of carbon emissions from a coal plant? I can believe
>>99% of SO2, Mercury, and other nasties - but CO2?
>>
>>Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
>>
>>
>
>By installing a billion dollars of equipment to clean it up, which we
>want if they want to build it, but they only want to install half a
>billion now which will not do it, so we told them to forget about it.
>
>So now they came up with installing acres of wind generator plants to
>further reduce the yearly emission rates.
>
>We already have about 200 of these wind generators already and the area
>will look like a forest.
>
>Roland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GA is pretty backwards as far as this goes. Especially here in Savannah, where
if it doesn't belch soot, or at least white smoke, it's not considered a real
vehicle, but something to be run off the road.
I believe the Atalanta area may be different, as they had a fleet EV program
for a while (even had some EV1's), but there's Atlanta, and then there's the
rest of Georgia.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Dmitri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, November 12, 2006 8:47:15 PM
Subject: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
Are there any incentives or tax credits for doing a conversion in GA?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 05:32:05 -0800 (PST)
GA is pretty backwards as far as this goes. Especially here in Savannah,
where if it doesn't belch soot, or at least white smoke, it's not
considered a real vehicle, but something to be run off the road.
I've heard this before here - that some drivers run EVs off the road -
especially if they drive too slowly. I find this worrisome, since I plan to
have my EV on the road in the spring.
What's the usual method they use ? It seems to me it's probably either
pushing on your bumper from behind, or moving up on the left and forcing you
off the road by pushing sideways on the left side of your car.
I hope they use the push-from-behind method. That doesn't sound quite as
scary as having an SUV right next to you pushing on the driver's door.
Assuming they use the first method, do you guys have to replace your rear
bumpers often? Should I plan ahead and try to find a spare now?
Thanks,
Phil
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Assuming they use the first method, do you guys have to replace your rear
> bumpers often? Should I plan ahead and try to find a spare now?
>
How about replacing the rear bumper with a big slab of oak? It will take a lot
of punishment
without complaining. It's renewable. And the rustic look might fit in better,
less chance they'll
notice it's an EV. ;^)
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I found out more info our coal power plant which will be use in conjunction
with a coal liquid plant. For these to work, they have to be built over a coal
field. All of the emission of the coal plant and adding water and air, will be
pump into the coal field, to turn the coal into a liquid, so it now can be pump
out like oil.
The problem is that there will be 100 lbs of mercury per year that might go
into the water table. So this type of installation has to be carefully place
in the correct location, which is closer to a oil field that has a oil dome
that is floating on a formation of water.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 6:23 AM
Subject: RE: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
Actually I saw a show on the Discovery Channel that said companies are
taking CO2 and pumping it into oil wells to increase production. We get
more oil from the existing well and we get rid of many tons of CO2 in
the process. I think it is a win win, at least in the short term.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 13:32
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [BULK] Re: Carbon Dioxide and EVs - a loser?
I have never heard of any plan which could in any way lessen the amount
of CO2 produced per ton of coal. We burn carbon to make CO2. The CO2
can't be reformed into carbon without putting all the energy you took
out of it back in.
What I have heard of is "sequestering", the idea that you can capture
the vast amounts of CO2 and pump them into a huge underground cavern or
something. I have a hard time picturing a large enough empty space for
that to happen, immense volumes of gaseous CO2 are involved. There are
serious questions as to whether the CO2 will be contained there forever
or if it will just eventually leak back out creating the same problem.
Since people are demanding plants make less CO2 yet nothing can actually
be done to make any less CO2 other than make the plant a bit more
efficient, it has a lot of appeal to power companies. If it's not going
to hold the CO2 forever (or at least until we stop burning fossil fuels
because we switch to cold fusion, we run out of fossil fuels and go back
to horse-drawn plows, or we just die off) then it's not solving anything
and thus it's just a huge scam.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
>>Hmm - this doesn't pass the smell test. What are they doing to
>>eliminate 99% of carbon emissions from a coal plant? I can believe
>>99% of SO2, Mercury, and other nasties - but CO2?
>>
>>Lawrence Lile, P.E., LEED AP
>>
>>
>
>By installing a billion dollars of equipment to clean it up, which we
>want if they want to build it, but they only want to install half a
>billion now which will not do it, so we told them to forget about it.
>
>So now they came up with installing acres of wind generator plants to
>further reduce the yearly emission rates.
>
>We already have about 200 of these wind generators already and the area
>will look like a forest.
>
>Roland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Harvey<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 5:07 AM
Subject: Re: Water heaters
So, after you install all these safety features, aren't you up way over a
day's work to install? Hard to beat the ceramic argument. Yes, it's about a
day to convert to ceramic, but if you use the right parts, it's pretty
brainless. I guess that's why they're more popular in retrofit EVs. Well,
that and the obvious difference in price and system complexity, and weight,
and...
I think this depends on the car and how long it takes to remove the heater
core and install a ceramic, plus rework the air doors, so you do not bring in
100% outside cold air all the time. Some newer cars have a circulation system,
while I had to modified my EV to circulated the cab air.
The motor bay of my EV is so jam pack and tight, that it would take me weeks
to remove all these items to install a ceramic heater. So what I did was
install one hot water system, plus under dash ceramic heaters that are made for
vehicles by Phillips.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
0-o
seriously?
need a couple lipstick cams on front/rear and record when someone seems
about to do something redneck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
From: David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 05:32:05 -0800 (PST)
GA is pretty backwards as far as this goes. Especially here in Savannah,
where if it doesn't belch soot, or at least white smoke, it's not
considered a real vehicle, but something to be run off the road.
I've heard this before here - that some drivers run EVs off the road -
especially if they drive too slowly. I find this worrisome, since I plan
to have my EV on the road in the spring.
What's the usual method they use ? It seems to me it's probably either
pushing on your bumper from behind, or moving up on the left and forcing
you off the road by pushing sideways on the left side of your car.
I hope they use the push-from-behind method. That doesn't sound quite as
scary as having an SUV right next to you pushing on the driver's door.
Assuming they use the first method, do you guys have to replace your rear
bumpers often? Should I plan ahead and try to find a spare now?
Thanks,
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was speaking generally, as it applies to ANY small vehicle or one that
doesn't go as fast as they think it should (and 10 mph over the limit is too
slow). The usual method is to tailgate to force you to go faster. Also if you
leave too big a gap between the vehicle in front of you, it will get filled,
forcing you further back.
David Brandt
----- Original Message ----
From: Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 2:59:46 PM
Subject: Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
>From: David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
>Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 05:32:05 -0800 (PST)
>
>GA is pretty backwards as far as this goes. Especially here in Savannah,
>where if it doesn't belch soot, or at least white smoke, it's not
>considered a real vehicle, but something to be run off the road.
>
I've heard this before here - that some drivers run EVs off the road -
especially if they drive too slowly. I find this worrisome, since I plan to
have my EV on the road in the spring.
What's the usual method they use ? It seems to me it's probably either
pushing on your bumper from behind, or moving up on the left and forcing you
off the road by pushing sideways on the left side of your car.
I hope they use the push-from-behind method. That doesn't sound quite as
scary as having an SUV right next to you pushing on the driver's door.
Assuming they use the first method, do you guys have to replace your rear
bumpers often? Should I plan ahead and try to find a spare now?
Thanks,
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Stay in touch with old friends and meet new ones with Windows Live Spaces
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mkt=en-us
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- Phil Marino <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Assuming they use the first method, do you guys have to replace
> your rear
> > bumpers often? Should I plan ahead and try to find a spare now?
>
> How about replacing the rear bumper with a big slab of oak? It will
> take a lot of punishment
> without complaining. It's renewable. And the rustic look might fit in
> better, less chance they'll
> notice it's an EV. ;^)
> Dave Cover
Ash is easier to work with, and more forgiving. I suggest a nice piece
of ash for your EV bumper
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid Pedestrian
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 8:59 AM
Subject: Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
>
>
>
> >From: David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: Georgia EV conversion tax credit?
> >Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2006 05:32:05 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >GA is pretty backwards as far as this goes. Especially here in Savannah,
> >where if it doesn't belch soot, or at least white smoke, it's not
> >considered a real vehicle, but something to be run off the road.
> >
>
> Hi EVerybody;
Georgia ,Smorgia! It is the same everywhere ya go! I have been driving
EV's about 6 years or more. They are out there. I guess having "Electric
Car" inscribed in 3" letters on the back doesn't help and " Question
Internal Combustion" BIG yellow letters on rear window. I havent been run
off the road, just "murged" into on on ramps. I'm in the right lane at about
65 and a BIG ass truck setting speed records in the left lane or in road
speak" No where to GO"Yahoos will want YOU to get out of the way as THEY
want to come on at, say 50mph!THEY have a gas guzzler that probably could do
90 in the room on the on ramp?This is an issue with ANY vehicle I drive, not
only electric. My old Ford Van haz a jagged edge channel bumper sticking out
beyond the body of the truck. One look at that and they usually back
off!!!Only fender bender I had with a Rabbit was the guy from Virginia in a
Lincoln, that pulled off the road in a blizzerd, and made, well he TRIED to
U turn in front of me! I KNOW I stove in his left quarter panel with my
trusty alumunbum bunper, I helped him finish his U turn! HE took off real
fast, so I didn't get a word in with him. They don't expect a pissed, 6'5"
guy to climb out of a little 'ole Rabbit! It was slippery, packed snow, so
Lincolns push out of the way, easy enough especially as you weigh damn near
as much. Don't try this at home or dry pavement! I was late for my train,
and as you RR commuters know Time and trains wait for no man, EVen the
driver(engineer). They will find somebody ELSE, but you get yelled at! When
you are late THAT'S the one time that week the damn TRAIN is on time!So, if
THEY are at fault, they try to drive off, quick! I lost the RS rubber bumper
guard, on the Rabbit and had to pull the hydralic bumper back out, after.
Lucky, no other damage.And I made the train OK.
> I've heard this before here - that some drivers run EVs off the road -
> especially if they drive too slowly. I find this worrisome, since I plan
to
> have my EV on the road in the spring.
> But when you drive an EV and you ARE slow. Get the hell OUT of the way!
Let the yahoos go! Put yur turn signal on and sidle over to the right. They
will give ya a sorta " Thank You" wave as they blast by! It keeps piece on
the road!Or just don't put any EV markings on it for the first few weaks.
They just think it is amother old Diseasel beater, and he is doing best he
can?
>
> What's the usual method they use ? It seems to me it's probably either
> pushing on your bumper from behind, or moving up on the left and forcing
you
> off the road by pushing sideways on the left side of your car.
> Oh they won't do that! If they do , they are AT FAULT, following too
close, if they run into you? You have seen those bumper stickers that say"
Hit me, I need the Money" Not all in jest! And be ready to copy plate nos to
turn in to the cops!!I have asked Cops about that they say get the plate no,
time an' place and we will take it from there.
It didn't, far as I know, when a guy , drunk,climbed up the steps on my
EMD F-40 Diseasel Lokie, on the Montrealer train, one dark night, screeming
that I almost hit him at a grade crossing. And I was STOPPED! He's in my
face in the cab window! I said "hang on tight, it's a long ride to New
London,35miles, next stop",locked my door, and yanked out the throttle. He
fell off before we got out of Willimantic, I saw him go down the embankment,
still there? Naaah, the roaches probably got him by now?I called in his tag
no. on the RR radio, to the RR dispatcher. I haven't heard since.Was a cold
winter night, he wouldn't have lasted at 60-70mph.Had a RR buff buddy with
me he just couldn't believe! I said "Life is an Adventure on the RR" Like
the rest of life. Behind the scenes at Amtrak.With cell fones it can be fun
dropping a dime on these guys! Only problem is you don't know if there was
any follow up?
Driving my Rabbit home late at night from the Train, I'm going around a
very sharp ramp I see lights in my rear view mirror. Yeah!@ Watch BEHIND
you, too, driving ANYTHING! He was closing at an insane speed, I floored it,
upshifted and tried to get going about 65 and take the INSIDE of the turn, I
just KNEW he wasn't gunna make this turn. Out of state tourist? sure didn't
know the road! He didn't, Does a Duke's of Hazzard sorta flight! I keep
going to the next ramp, found a working pay fone(before Cells)and called
911. Citicop answers, tells me "Call the STATE cops, this isn't our
jusistiction!" I said YOU call them, it IS police biz, and YOU probably know
their no, anyhow?"Gees! I thought they sorta worked together?
Back to the story; I had a trailer hitch on the Rabbit, THAT helps keep
people from pushing you. It will stove in a plastic bumper nicely! I
actually USED it, though, to pull a log splitter!
> I hope they use the push-from-behind method. That doesn't sound quite as
> scary as having an SUV right next to you pushing on the driver's door.
> But you are gunna F**K HIM up too, they are gaudy with alota plastic and
shit, so HE is gunna get dinged up, too.Saw a heartwarning vid last night,
on "Police Chases" or something? Guy, in a smallish car, bipped a SUV and it
went out of control and rolled 8 times, flying apart! Broad driving wasn't
paying attention, never tried to correct, probably on the phone? But she DID
live. No guyzholding up" Ten" signs, like the Olympics. Car just kept going,
all live, in police cruiser's tape!
>
> Assuming they use the first method, do you guys have to replace your rear
> bumpers often? Should I plan ahead and try to find a spare now?
Naaah! Still was running my origionals, driving isn't always a contact
sport.
> But DO try to run at least the Speed Limit!As you know, growing up in
USA, speed limit signs as most OTHER road signs are merely suggestions. But
you DO have the right to go the Speed limit.You will get used to them
passing you on front of a school, over the double line, into a blind curve!
Imagine, the guy in the Electric slowing down to 25 MPh as suggested by the
signs!The NERVE! I gave up riding Motorcycles YEARS ago in USA, same
reason, people tuning in front of me and pulling out RIGHT in front so I
hafta run off the road! You bike drivers know all about that!. I rode bikes
in Taiwan , Okinawa,Japan, and Viet Nam, no problems in my deformative(Army)
years and lived to tell about it.
>
My two bumpers worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
