EV Digest 6133
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Tesla Motors Honored with Award from Pop Mechanics
by "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Water heaters
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Tesla Motors Honored with Award from Pop Mechanics
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Tesla Motors Honored with Award from Pop Mechanics
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) Lead acid terminal types
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Water heaters
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Firefly Energy joining EDTA :: details
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Water heaters
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Flooded vs. Dry cell nicads
by john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Water heaters
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Water heaters
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Water heaters
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Water heaters
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Batteries
by howard maroz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Maybe one to rescue in NY?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Flooded vs. Dry cell nicads
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Firefly Energy joining EDTA :: details
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Flooded vs. Dry cell nicads
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If ya gotta ask, you can't afford it.
Lawrence Lile
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Phil Marino
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors Honored with Award from Pop Mechanics
I give up - I couldn't find the price on their website. Anyone know
what
the price of a Tesla is?
Phil
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>You don't have to wonder. Visit their website: www.teslamotors.com.
>All the info is there.
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 3:08 PM
>Subject: Re: Tesla Motors Honored with Award from Pop Mechanics
>
>
>I want one :)
>Wonder what they are selling for?
>Way, way, beyond my means I am sure.
>
>-Tehben
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get today's hot entertainment gossip
http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Storm Connors wrote:
Does this mean that the recent paranoia about burning up my car with
one is somewhat overblown? What happens to one of these if the only
airflow is convective currents. How hot will they get if there is no
fan running?
A ceramic heater draws less current as it gets hotter; this tends to
limit the maximum temperature that it reaches. The exact temperature
is hard to predict, because it depends on airflow and applied voltage,
but is on the order of 200-300 deg.F.
That's not hot enough to directly start a fire, but it *will* melt
many plastics, insulation, and solder. This can cause bad connections
or short circuits, and indirectly start a fire.
The cheap consumer ceramic heaters don't use materials that can
withstand these temperatures; they depend on overtemperature cutout
switchs and fuses to turn it off before the heater can reach these
temperatures. The risk we are discussing is that these devices won't
work on high voltage DC.
Would these work well in such an application?
http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=CCD100&Nav=heap08
It uses an epoxy-sealed housing with a bimetal disk tied to a 277V/25A
SPDT switch...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is cash up front. I know a gentleman who offered to put 100,000 in escrow
to be released upon delivery of the car and Tesla refused.
--
In Friendship, Ted
//ted.sanders.home.comcast.net
//ffni.home.comcast.net
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> They didn't seem to have a price??
> Someone said $100,000.00
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I double checked and sure enough they took the price down. It was on
the right side of the home page. Anyway, it was $100,000 for the signature
series - which are sold out. If you click the FAQ about the price, the site
directs you to the order page. I suspect the price will come down from the
$100,000 since that figure is no longer stated. But still, that is in line
with
similar class cars. Doesn't mean I can afford one but I am certainly glad it
is
being produced!
Ken
In a message dated 11/14/2006 6:45:59 PM Central Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If ya gotta ask, you can't afford it.
Lawrence Lile
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Phil Marino
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors Honored with Award from Pop Mechanics
I give up - I couldn't find the price on their website. Anyone know
what
the price of a Tesla is?
Phil
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>You don't have to wonder. Visit their website: www.teslamotors.com.
>All the info is there.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am in the process of procuring batteries and would like some input on
terminal types for flooded lead acid batteries. I realize ElectroAuto
recommends the 'L' style terminal and in "Convert It" they present what
looks to be a good argument against the types with a steel post
sticking out of the terminal (cold creep if you keep them tight, loose
connection, high resistance and possible fire hazard if you do not keep
them tight all the time).
I ordered a set of batteries (with L terminals) from one of the US
Battery dealers in my region, however they showed up with what look
like standard or UT terminals (with the steel post and a nut). I sent
them back and now I'm not sure the dealer is still willing to deal with
me any more.
I have since discovered my local town has a Interstate dealer that
sells what appears to be a re-branded US Battery product. The
interstate specs indicate 2 terminal types are available: auto w/ hole
or thread stud.
Is the auto with hole a suitable substitute for the 'L' terminal?
I would prefer to not use the standard automotive style because I don't
want to by the 48 terminal connectors I would need, in particular
because the "kit" I got from electroauto cam with lugs.
Thanks,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Randy,
Are you ever going to put your all-in-one heater kit (ceramic element,
blower, metal box, mounting bracket, duct hose, vents, etc.) on your
web site? I keep posting that you sell one and to check with you
personally if they want it, but it would save me some typing if I could
post a URL to your web site.
I think it's a great product, especially for folks converting old
vehicles without an existing heating system (like my VW Karmann Ghia).
On Nov 14, 2006, at 3:57 PM, canev wrote:
We now have a slim housing that is only 1 3/8" thick so it should fit
easier into some tight heater box's.
I assume that's the bare ceramic heating element.
BFN
Randy
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like you got your wish, the company making the Smart Car copy
has been threatened with a lawsuit by Daimler Chrysler and has stopped
production
http://202.101.38.80/art/2006/11/14/297044/Lawsuit_pulls_plug_on_electric_car.htm
[..]
The City Spirit, which is powered by lithium batteries and has a range
of 300 kilometers and top speed of 60 kilometers an hour, was priced
from 38,000 yuan (US$4,750) to 80,000 yuan in China
[..]
On 9/26/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I got a bright idea and contacted Smart USA,
they will pass this infringement on to Mercedes.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Cor van de Water
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
Yep, that is the same CMEC that was reported earlier this week.
NOTE that the contact for this company is the same Jerry Chen
that answered the email to the Ebay listing!
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/htm.php?nowmenuid=29
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:03 PM
To: evlist
Subject: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
Just as was POSTed this China company is making a Smart looking
knock-off with a nEV performance:
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/cp_detail.php?id=1993&nowmenuid=23&cpath=027
2:0275:0280:&catid=280
If one did buy it, would the owner's local DMV register it?
Could they drive it on U.S. streets?
...
What is next? Knock-off EV parts/components for sale?
www.evparts.cn ???
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 14, 2006, at 12:24 AM, David Roden wrote:
Please get an isolated charger, or an isolation transformer. I hope
you at
least have a GFI. If not, get one right away - and use it every time
you
charge.
You are just freakin' hung up on isolation, aren't you?
Let me try this again...
There are 3 ways to protect from ground path shocks (that may range
from funny to fatal.) For public charging PLEASE use any TWO. The
choices are isolation, chassis grounding, and ground fault circuit
protection. (Roger, have you ever seen a hot tub that used isolation in
its heating system?) Any one will protect people, but *any one* could
fail (including isolation transformers.)
Now on to the idea of using two, 120vac, plugs to charge faster. I do
not recommend it! If you really need it please please carefully
consider how to provide two levels of vehicle charging safety no matter
what two outlets you plug into (and no live pins if ONE is unplugged
either!)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:06 PM 11/14/2006, you wrote:
On 14 Nov 2006 at 12:17, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> This is the first advancement in lead-acid batteries, a technology that's
> remained relatively unchanged since before the Civil War.
Say what????!
Um, yeah, they have improved a tiny bit since then. But this WOULD
be a "revolutionary" change, as opposed to "evolutionary". I would
love to see it come true. Will wait with bated breath for pricing
and availability.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't had a problem, Randy, because I wired the fan so that the heater
element won't come on unless the fan does.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "canev" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: Water heaters
> Have you had this experience?
> We have now sold over 800 of those ceramic heaters and never heard of
> anyone having a problem? Apparently I'm always the last the hear.
> I had a fleet customer with a Nissan pick up a few years (12 years) ago
> that had a defective heater relay and was welded closed for a few months
> in the summer before the customer noticed the extra warm air coming out
> of the vents even with the "heat" switch turned off.
> It had done no damage to any of the duct or the element and that truck
> is still in his fleet with the same heater.
> The old Nicrom wire heaters (hair dryers) would just get hotter and
> hotter with no air flow until something burned up but the ceramic's will
> heat up to a certain temp and then start to reduce current draw if there
> is no airflow.
> I just went out and checked on my Neon.
> It draws about 17 amps at 144 volts. As soon as you turn the fan off the
> current drops to about 5 amps in the first minute and down to about 2.5
> amps in the second minute.
> With about 350 watts of heat you should not be causing anything to catch
> fire?
> The elements are mounted in a plastic frame that should isolate the
> heater from the plastic duct work.
>
> Let me know how may of you have melted ducts or burned up cars for our
> heaters.
> We now have a slim housing that is only 1 3/8" thick so it should fit
> easier into some tight heater box's.
>
> BFN
> Randy
>
> >
> >Hot enough to melt plastic air ducts and start fires!
> >
> >Joseph H. Strubhar
> >
> >E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[email protected]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:23 AM
> >Subject: Re: Water heaters
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
> PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
> Errington, British Columbia,
> Canada, V0R 1V0
> Phone: (250) 954-2230
> Fax: (250) 954-2235
> Website: http://www.canev.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
> EV conversion Kits and components
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.5/534 - Release Date: 11/14/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as power density, which type of battery would be better? Specifically
im looking at the 14 a/h and 24 a/h versions from sg-photo, the same place the
bb600 were sold. The other type is the gp 1600 mah nicad which is rated to do
30 amps continous. I'm lookin to make the gp sub c cells into 72 volt packs
and then parallel 10 to 14 packs.
I'm trying to find the best solution of the two for a pocket drag bike that
will be a winter project. Which would be better of the two?
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
Talk more and pay less. Vonage can save you up to $300 a year on your phone
bill. Sign up now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could charge using either 120 or 220... but using both would likely
overload the circuit. Besides being against code, of course. I assume for
the 120V chargers, they'll be charging half the pack each. I'd think,
otherwise, they'd confuse the cutoff on the charging circuits.
It seems that it'd make more sense to go w/ a 20 to 40A 240V circuit and get
a suitable 240V charger. W/ a 30A 240V charger, you could put 4 times the
A's out. You'd also have the advantage of 2 chargers onboard, if you chose
to mount them... so could take opportunity charges from more sources.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
> Couldn't you put one isolation transformer on each 120 volt outlet?
> Then connect 2 of the 4 wires together and use the other 2 wires to power
a
> 220 volt charger?
>
> mike golub wrote:
> If I double the outlets I could charge at ~30amps.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Added, they 2 chargers would probably be around 22-25A @ 120V. (Most
chargers are rated at their max draw & tend to draw less than rated most of
the time.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "mike golub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 1:45 AM
Subject: Re: Dual outlet opportunity charging;-30F
> Once isolated can they be added to make
> 30amps-120volts?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
> There are 3 ways to protect from ground path shocks (that may range
> from funny to fatal.) For public charging PLEASE use any TWO. The
> choices are isolation, chassis grounding, and ground fault circuit
> protection. (Roger, have you ever seen a hot tub that used
> isolation in its heating system?) Any one will protect people, but
> *any one* could fail (including isolation transformers.)
Hey Neon, you talkin' to me? ;^>
I didn't even participate in this thread until now...
For what its worth, I agree with your summary (3 ways, use any two,
etc.), but will point out that David is correct (IMNSHO) in emphasising
isolation. You will find that *no* production EV/NEV uses a
non-isolated charger, and many with isolated chargers back that up with
GFCI protection. If OEMs could get away with a cheaper non-isolated
charger, they would. ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another thread talking about transformer oil suddenly made
my brain jump: if the amount of water in the heater system
makes the EV heater slow to respond, due to the heat
capacity of the water, as that needs to be heated up first,
then why not use _oil_ in the heater system?
Even if you have 1 gallon of oil (usually less) then the
lower heat capacity of oil should make it heat up quickly
with an elecment that is capable of sustaining the power
to get your car up to temperature.
(Victor indicates that 4kW is more than sufficient, but
that 2kW does not cut it in colder areas).
The relative heat capacity difference of oil versus water
is about 40% so the system that used to give heat after
1 minute now responds in 20 sec and the system with 5 min
until decent heat now speeds up to 2 min.
Any longer than 5 min heat response and you likely have
too low power heating element, even if you wait a long
time it likely does not heat up your car significantly
as it does not have enough power to feed into your cabin
if it can't get the heater system up to temp in that time
(except systems that store heat in large capacity 'boiler')
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Monday, November 13, 2006 1:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Water heaters
Lee Hart wrote:
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>> The 4 kW MES water heater I use in ACRX is very comfortable -
...
> So true! Even the slowest EV heaters start working faster than ICE
> heaters. How much water is in the system, Victor?
The integrated heater tank is 2 liters capacity. I'm not sure
what CRX's core volume is, but overall it is close to 1 US gal.
> That and the wattage
> would determine how fast it warms up.
Yes, like I say, after 30 sec it's warming. 2kW version
with the same amt of water may take 1 min.
> 4kw is a lot of heat. What percentage of the time is it on? I'm
> wondering what its efficiency is (what percentage of the heat actually
> goes into the interior of the car versus to heat the water tank and its
> surroundings).
Efficiency is very close to 100% - the heater is barely warm to touch
from outside. Short rubber hoses to the firewall are warmer than
the heater, but not by much. As of duty cycle, as you'd expect after
initial "on" its duty cycle depends on how much air you blow through
the exchanger core, e.g. how aggressively you cool off the water.
If the fan is off, the heating element stays on for ~10 sec and
off for few minutes - I lost patience waiting to determine that
(I can monitor battery current surge when heater turns in). When
it's cold outside and blower is on full speed, the heater is on
most the time, but still not 100% of the time. 2kW unit would
have been 100% and even may not be able to keep up with heating
if the exchanger is large. Nevertheless, good news is all the energy
goes to heat (no waste of heating anything other than water).
>
>> Would I want it to warm up quicker? Sure. 5 sec would be nice.
>> 1 sec even nicer.
>
> If your tank is insulated, you could try leaving the heater on for a
> while with the circulation pump off to see if it uses enough power to
> matter.
I could do that (esp since parked car is plugged in at all times in my
case),
but it really not worth it. As I said, I can wait 30 sec, but in
practice, I usually don't have to wait any time: I open the car and
turn heater on. Then, by the time garage door lowers, I sit down,
put my things on the seat, shut the door, put it on gear and back out of
the driveway, more than 30 sec elapsed.
We're splitting hairs here.
>> The cost is different story, but I can tell you this: installing
>> $600 unit takes about 1 hour and you don't take your dash apart.
>> Making and installing ceramic heater will take more than one day,
>> which may or may not make sense depending how much your time worth.
>
> Of course, this depends on the car. My Renault heater assembly comes out
> with two bolts, a couple screws, and a connector. Other cars require
> disassembling the entire dashboard.
Good for you. Still, to rip the core out and integrate
ceramic element, build all the controls for it which will last
for years, is practically not so quick (despite being trivial
from engineering point of view). One has to try to understand this.
If you think something takes a day to do, you try and realize in a
week you're still half way through. Murphy's law in action.
>
>> FWIW, I'm not aware or any OEM EV using ceramic heaters.
>
> Our Toyota Prius has a ceramic heater *and* a water heater.
Toyota Prius is gasoline vehicle so the engine heat comes for free.
Ceramic is probably used only because you must have heat available
in EV only mode.
I meant out of all pure EVs demonstrated, there was none with ceramic
heater (unless I missed it). Perhaps they all are making the same basic
mistake :-)
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil Marino wrote:
> 350 watts is more than enough to melt or burn things if there
> is no external airflow to take away the heat. Have you tried
> leaving the heater on (with no air flow) for an hour? Any
> damage or fire then? Let us know what happens.
Phil, I think Randy's message already addressed this. He wrote:
> >I had a fleet customer with a Nissan pick up a few years
> >(12 years) ago that had a defective heater relay and was
> >welded closed for a few months in the summer before the
> >customer noticed the extra warm air coming out of the
> >vents even with the "heat" switch turned off.
> >It had done no damage to any of the duct or the element and
> >that truck is still in his fleet with the same heater.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The oil I use also has the benefit of not freezing until below -47C (or
at least the pour point is -47C, FWIW). The boiling point is higher
than water, I believe.
http://www.shell-lubricants.com/products/pdf/DialaAX.pdf
Would the lower heat conductivity (perhaps half) be a disadvantage?
Could antifreeze be used? It's more readily available.
- Arthur
On Tue, 2006-11-14 at 19:24 -0800, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Another thread talking about transformer oil suddenly made
> my brain jump: if the amount of water in the heater system
> makes the EV heater slow to respond, due to the heat
> capacity of the water, as that needs to be heated up first,
> then why not use _oil_ in the heater system?
>
> Even if you have 1 gallon of oil (usually less) then the
> lower heat capacity of oil should make it heat up quickly
> with an elecment that is capable of sustaining the power
> to get your car up to temperature.
>
> (Victor indicates that 4kW is more than sufficient, but
> that 2kW does not cut it in colder areas).
>
> The relative heat capacity difference of oil versus water
> is about 40% so the system that used to give heat after
> 1 minute now responds in 20 sec and the system with 5 min
> until decent heat now speeds up to 2 min.
> Any longer than 5 min heat response and you likely have
> too low power heating element, even if you wait a long
> time it likely does not heat up your car significantly
> as it does not have enough power to feed into your cabin
> if it can't get the heater system up to temp in that time
> (except systems that store heat in large capacity 'boiler')
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Amusing!
Back on Oct.24 in the Shanghai Daily Post:
"Shandong HuoYun Electromobile Co.,Ltd. has developed a vehicle that
looks a little too much like the DaimlerChrysler's Smart For Two for
DaimlerChrysler's taste.
DaimlerChrysler has filed a lawsuit against Shandong HuoYun, alleging
that the company's electric vehicle plagiarized the design of Smart's
body shape. Shandong HuoYun maintains that their electric vehicle is
not a copy, and that it is clearly distinguishable from
DaimlerChrysler's Smart For Two because Shandong HuoYun's car is fully
electric.
Shandong Huo Yun currently sells its electric vehicle in the US, Europe
and East Asia. Its retail price is US$5,260, about 50% lower than
DaimlerChrysler's 2nd generation Smart For Two."
So looks like HuoYon originally tried to claim that the power plant
made it dissimilar enough... now has backed off. And they acknowledge
sales to the US. Wonder how many containers actually got shipped...
Great PR for HuoYun. I doubt any of their Execs have fallen on their
swords or taken a bullet :)
Lock
Toronto
Human/Electric Hybrid Pedestrian
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Looks like you got your wish, the company making the Smart Car copy
> has been threatened with a lawsuit by Daimler Chrysler and has
> stopped production
>
>
http://202.101.38.80/art/2006/11/14/297044/Lawsuit_pulls_plug_on_electric_car.htm
>
> [..]
> The City Spirit, which is powered by lithium batteries and has a
> range
> of 300 kilometers and top speed of 60 kilometers an hour, was priced
> from 38,000 yuan (US$4,750) to 80,000 yuan in China
> [..]
>
>
> On 9/26/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I got a bright idea and contacted Smart USA,
> > they will pass this infringement on to Mercedes.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:13 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
> >
> >
> > Yep, that is the same CMEC that was reported earlier this week.
> >
> > NOTE that the contact for this company is the same Jerry Chen
> > that answered the email to the Ebay listing!
> > http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/htm.php?nowmenuid=29
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of bruce parmenter
> > Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:03 PM
> > To: evlist
> > Subject: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
> >
> >
> > Just as was POSTed this China company is making a Smart looking
> > knock-off with a nEV performance:
> >
>
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/cp_detail.php?id=1993&nowmenuid=23&cpath=027
> > 2:0275:0280:&catid=280
> >
> > If one did buy it, would the owner's local DMV register it?
> >
> > Could they drive it on U.S. streets?
> >
> > ...
> >
> > What is next? Knock-off EV parts/components for sale?
> > www.evparts.cn ???
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
> >
> > ' ____
> > ~/__|o\__
> > '@----- @'---(=
> > . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> > . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> > . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> > ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Evan,
Yeah - it is not "smart" (pun intended) to copy someone's
design and then offer it in one of the target markets of
the original...
Anyway - as you can see in the news report, it was mainly a
fancy golf cart/NEV, not allowed on "public thoroughfares",
though I am not sure if this means all public streets or the
usual NEV limit of not allowed on streets with >35 MPH speed.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Evan Tuer
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
Looks like you got your wish, the company making the Smart Car copy
has been threatened with a lawsuit by Daimler Chrysler and has stopped
production
http://202.101.38.80/art/2006/11/14/297044/Lawsuit_pulls_plug_on_electric_ca
r.htm
[..]
The City Spirit, which is powered by lithium batteries and has a range
of 300 kilometers and top speed of 60 kilometers an hour, was priced
from 38,000 yuan (US$4,750) to 80,000 yuan in China
[..]
On 9/26/06, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I got a bright idea and contacted Smart USA,
> they will pass this infringement on to Mercedes.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Cor van de Water
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:13 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
>
>
> Yep, that is the same CMEC that was reported earlier this week.
>
> NOTE that the contact for this company is the same Jerry Chen
> that answered the email to the Ebay listing!
> http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/htm.php?nowmenuid=29
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of bruce parmenter
> Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 3:03 PM
> To: evlist
> Subject: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
>
>
> Just as was POSTed this China company is making a Smart looking
> knock-off with a nEV performance:
>
http://www.ieb.cn/com/business9/cp_detail.php?id=1993&nowmenuid=23&cpath=027
> 2:0275:0280:&catid=280
>
> If one did buy it, would the owner's local DMV register it?
>
> Could they drive it on U.S. streets?
>
> ...
>
> What is next? Knock-off EV parts/components for sale?
> www.evparts.cn ???
>
>
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course you could use anti-freeze (in water) but then
you are back where we started - with a slow warming heater.
I suggested that people with water in their heater convert to
oil, I think I am going to bypass my heater core (it's now in the
return path from controller and motor cooling to the radiator
and since the temp never gets abover 40 deg C the heater does....
not heat.
Bypassing it, filling it with oil and adding an electric heater
plus pump should give me a working heat source.
lower heat conductivity should not be an issue as the oil is
getting/releasing its heat by flowing past the surfaces where
it is heated/cooled, I do not think there is a lot of time to
conduct heat inside the oil.
Even with lower heat capacity and bad heat conductivity, all it
takes is a higher flow rate to transport the same amount of
energy, so if it is a problem then it can be solved with a
good pump.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Arthur W. Matteson
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Water heaters
The oil I use also has the benefit of not freezing until below -47C (or
at least the pour point is -47C, FWIW). The boiling point is higher
than water, I believe.
http://www.shell-lubricants.com/products/pdf/DialaAX.pdf
Would the lower heat conductivity (perhaps half) be a disadvantage?
Could antifreeze be used? It's more readily available.
- Arthur
On Tue, 2006-11-14 at 19:24 -0800, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Another thread talking about transformer oil suddenly made
> my brain jump: if the amount of water in the heater system
> makes the EV heater slow to respond, due to the heat
> capacity of the water, as that needs to be heated up first,
> then why not use _oil_ in the heater system?
>
> Even if you have 1 gallon of oil (usually less) then the
> lower heat capacity of oil should make it heat up quickly
> with an elecment that is capable of sustaining the power
> to get your car up to temperature.
>
> (Victor indicates that 4kW is more than sufficient, but
> that 2kW does not cut it in colder areas).
>
> The relative heat capacity difference of oil versus water
> is about 40% so the system that used to give heat after
> 1 minute now responds in 20 sec and the system with 5 min
> until decent heat now speeds up to 2 min.
> Any longer than 5 min heat response and you likely have
> too low power heating element, even if you wait a long
> time it likely does not heat up your car significantly
> as it does not have enough power to feed into your cabin
> if it can't get the heater system up to temp in that time
> (except systems that store heat in large capacity 'boiler')
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am new to this list and I'm sure this question has been asked many times in
the past. I am building a Wombat Kitcar on a VW Beetle chassis and I initially
thought I could get a reliable 75 mi range at 55 mph using golf cart batteries.
After much research it does not look like I will achieve this range using lead
acid batteries of any kind. I need some help in learning what options are
available to give me this range. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Howard
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Mortgage for $1,698/mo - Calculate
new house payment
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
> It IS a Citicar! Would recognize it anywhere, EVen in Brooklyn!
>It looks like an origional, but I don't see why he blanked out the
>headlights?Probably still 36 volt, contacter controller? Should be in a
>museum!And as somebody commented it was a hellova parking job, too!
What was first, the car or the fence?
It looks like there is almost 2ft behind the car, so it could
have been a typical city parking job in a narrow spot ;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know if they do or don't still have them, but before you get too
wrapped up in which is better, you might want to check with them to see if
they are still available.
Also, I seem to remember that NiCads don't parallel well. However, this
might not be that big a deal with a drag bike, especially if you charge
the strings separately.
> As far as power density, which type of battery would be better?
> Specifically im looking at the 14 a/h and 24 a/h versions from sg-photo,
> the same place the bb600 were sold. The other type is the gp 1600 mah
> nicad which is rated to do 30 amps continous. I'm lookin to make the gp
> sub c cells into 72 volt packs and then parallel 10 to 14 packs.
>
> I'm trying to find the best solution of the two for a pocket drag bike
> that will be a winter project. Which would be better of the two?
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sponsored Link
>
> Talk more and pay less. Vonage can save you up to $300 a year on your
> phone bill. Sign up now.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Nov 2006 at 18:00, Electro Automotive wrote:
> But this WOULD
> be a "revolutionary" change, as opposed to "evolutionary".
I'm thinking "Horizon." That was, what, about 1989?
BTW, the Horizon battery is supposedly in production again, or will be, this
time as a joint venture with Eagle-Picher. They claim specific energy of 45
Wh/kg.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Nov 2006 at 18:49, john bart wrote:
> im looking at the 14 a/h and 24 a/h versions from sg-photo
I think you mean 14 AH or 24AH. AH stands for amp hours. There is no such
unit as amp/hours. It's a meaningless term.
That aside, I thought I read here that SG Photo had sold out of these cells.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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