EV Digest 6134
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Got my copy of "Who Killed the Electric Car" today!
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Lead acid terminal types
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Flooded vs. Dry cell nicads
by john bart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Lead acid terminal types
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Water heaters
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Changing Output Voltage on Zivan NG3 Battery Chargers
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re:NEDRA records - Production classes?
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Maxwell Tech Intro's 125v Ultracap Module for heavy Hybrid and EVs
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Lead acid terminal types
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Maxwell Tech Intro's 125v Ultracap Module for heavy Hybrid an
d EVs
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Tesla Motors Honored with Award from Pop Mechanics
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Lead acid terminal types, Again! For the Newbees Here.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Water heaters
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Well, happy to say I was able to find a copy of the movie locally today! It did
take me a little while though. I first tried Best Buy. That particular location
did not have it, but the employees were very helpful and were able to look up
the other stores, most of which had at least 3 copies in stock. I tried a near
by Circuit City, they didn't have it. I went inside the mall I was circling and
found a Suncoast video store. They're generally more expensive, but they have
odd-ball stuff you won't find elsewhere. I walked around the store for a few
minutes looking for a documentary section or special intrest, and didn't find
it. I was about to go ask if they had it when I glanced over and there it was
right in front on a rack! I think it was the only copy there, but I didn't
care, I had found it!
With a big smile on my face I went to the counter, set it down and gleefully
said "you have it"! To my suprise the girl at the checkout said she wanted to
see it. "It's very good" I said. "Ohh where'd you see it?" she asked. Me
"Camelview 5". "Ohh, it didn't play long there did it?". Me "Only two weeks,
but I did help sell out some of the opening night showings."
Now this is the ironic part; the mall I bought the movie at is the Fiesta Mall
in Mesa, AZ. This mall used to have an electric vehicle charging station, but
it has long since been removed. Looking at the old EV1 club web site I'm 90%
sure I was able to figure out where it used to be. There's usually a little
hump in the black top where the charger pedestal used to be.
The DVD has some good specail featuers including deleted scenes and some cool
behind the scene footage from the filming. I won't ruin the suprise for anyone
though.
I'm watching it for a 2nd time today. I think I'm going to give my Saturn
conversion a hug now.
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight - Sold
06 Civic IMA
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When the guy @ Interstate took them back, he should've
melted on the proper type. You would've had to deal
with sealing issues, as they would've melted the
plastic a bit, (ie, use Nocote spray, etc).
Same thing happened to me. Where do they GET these
guys?!
As far as "will it work..."
It depends. Are you pulling higher (450+ amperes) or
more like 250-300A? Higher voltages, or lower
voltages? Ie, the higher the current, the bigger risk
of melting a terminal and having too small a surface
area to contact.
Personally, I've used the copper strip contacts,
and the 2.0 welding cable (currently). So I have no
experience with any other type of lug/terminal setup.
But these would be the questions I'd be concerned with
first.
--- John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I am in the process of procuring batteries and would
> like some input on
> terminal types for flooded lead acid batteries. I
> realize ElectroAuto
> recommends the 'L' style terminal and in "Convert
> It" they present what
> looks to be a good argument against the types with a
> steel post
> sticking out of the terminal (cold creep if you keep
> them tight, loose
> connection, high resistance and possible fire hazard
> if you do not keep
> them tight all the time).
>
> I ordered a set of batteries (with L terminals) from
> one of the US
> Battery dealers in my region, however they showed up
> with what look
> like standard or UT terminals (with the steel post
> and a nut). I sent
> them back and now I'm not sure the dealer is still
> willing to deal with
> me any more.
>
> I have since discovered my local town has a
> Interstate dealer that
> sells what appears to be a re-branded US Battery
> product. The
> interstate specs indicate 2 terminal types are
> available: auto w/ hole
> or thread stud.
>
> Is the auto with hole a suitable substitute for the
> 'L' terminal?
>
> I would prefer to not use the standard automotive
> style because I don't
> want to by the 48 terminal connectors I would need,
> in particular
> because the "kit" I got from electroauto cam with
> lugs.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
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____
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Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good point, as far as i knew it was the 34 ah cells that were sold out, i'll
have to check though.
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I don't know if they do or don't
still have them, but before you get too
wrapped up in which is better, you might want to check with them to see if
they are still available.
Also, I seem to remember that NiCads don't parallel well. However, this
might not be that big a deal with a drag bike, especially if you charge
the strings separately.
> As far as power density, which type of battery would be better?
> Specifically im looking at the 14 a/h and 24 a/h versions from sg-photo,
> the same place the bb600 were sold. The other type is the gp 1600 mah
> nicad which is rated to do 30 amps continous. I'm lookin to make the gp
> sub c cells into 72 volt packs and then parallel 10 to 14 packs.
>
> I'm trying to find the best solution of the two for a pocket drag bike
> that will be a winter project. Which would be better of the two?
>
> ---------------------------------
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>
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wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
I have use the three different type of battery post. The L terminal, the post
with a hole in it and the standard auto post with a stud.
In all three I was a 2/0 size cable lug with a 3/8 hole. The L terminal post
had a recommended torque of 90 in.lbs., but would not stand up to the pressure,
they would continue to shrink back and the post would keep getting flatten more
until the this post develop cracks.
I must make a note on the ampere, I was using at the time. I was not running a
Zilla where the battery amperes would be about 50 amps and the motor amps was
200 amps. I was running about 400 to 600 battery amps for about 2 miles on a
very steep hill to work every day.
The post with the hole in it was the worst, the surface was not large enough
and these post would squeeze down till it broke off the top section.
Then I tried the post with studs, because I wanted to used my terminal lugs.
The torque specs call for 90 to 105 inch lbs, but right from the start they
could not withstand more than 75 inch lbs. This terminal would mushroom and/or
bulge with the head of the stud trying to come out. At 600 amps there was
sometimes a lost of power, meaning the stud type had a high shrink back because
again the surface contact was not there.
To solve this problem at the time, was that I order ring type battery
connectors from Wirthco . com. These are like the marine type but is a forge
brass, with a removable bolt that is gold plate instead of the cast in bolts.
I got these for $1.75 each at the time. They could be way up to $2.00 or more
now.
The ring band on these type of terminals are narrower then the standard rings,
but have a groove spline like contact. You can torque these down until you are
blue in the face. I also use a stainless washer, lock washer and nut on the
stud on the post to provide down ward pressure on this battery terminal and
cause more internal pressure of post against the inside of this ring type
connector.
I now can torque the battery post stud to 105 inch lb or even over with out
pulling out, which the ring connector is providing pressure around the post and
the head of the stud.
The part no of these ring terminals I use is #22205 for a Positive & Negative
Pair. They come with a wing-nut, but I replace that with a stainless steel nut
and lock washer.
Later I transfer these ring terminals to my Trojan T-145's which the battery
post was at a different spacing then the US batteries, but I can just rotate
the battery clamps to fit the existing cable lugs length.
Again, I can torque all these studs and bolts until I and red and blue in the
face about 5 years ago. These forge brass ring clamps will stretch and not
break like a cast battery clamp. I check them one time in the first year and
today they are still maintaining a torque over 100 in.lbs. while running a
Zilla of which my average battery amp is now between 50 to 100 amps and
sometimes peak to 180 amps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:53 PM
Subject: Lead acid terminal types
I am in the process of procuring batteries and would like some input on
terminal types for flooded lead acid batteries. I realize ElectroAuto
recommends the 'L' style terminal and in "Convert It" they present what
looks to be a good argument against the types with a steel post
sticking out of the terminal (cold creep if you keep them tight, loose
connection, high resistance and possible fire hazard if you do not keep
them tight all the time).
I ordered a set of batteries (with L terminals) from one of the US
Battery dealers in my region, however they showed up with what look
like standard or UT terminals (with the steel post and a nut). I sent
them back and now I'm not sure the dealer is still willing to deal with
me any more.
I have since discovered my local town has a Interstate dealer that
sells what appears to be a re-branded US Battery product. The
interstate specs indicate 2 terminal types are available: auto w/ hole
or thread stud.
Is the auto with hole a suitable substitute for the 'L' terminal?
I would prefer to not use the standard automotive style because I don't
want to by the 48 terminal connectors I would need, in particular
because the "kit" I got from electroauto cam with lugs.
Thanks,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another thought. I was told a series-wound motor won't work for regen
because the voltage generated will generally be below battery voltage
(not clear on whether this is true). I'm wondering if routing the power
to a hot water heater would be possible, since a heating element can be
set up to operate on a lower voltage.
Danny
Cor van de Water wrote:
Of course you could use anti-freeze (in water) but then
you are back where we started - with a slow warming heater.
I suggested that people with water in their heater convert to
oil, I think I am going to bypass my heater core (it's now in the
return path from controller and motor cooling to the radiator
and since the temp never gets abover 40 deg C the heater does....
not heat.
Bypassing it, filling it with oil and adding an electric heater
plus pump should give me a working heat source.
lower heat conductivity should not be an issue as the oil is
getting/releasing its heat by flowing past the surfaces where
it is heated/cooled, I do not think there is a lot of time to
conduct heat inside the oil.
Even with lower heat capacity and bad heat conductivity, all it
takes is a higher flow rate to transport the same amount of
energy, so if it is a problem then it can be solved with a
good pump.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Arthur W. Matteson
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 7:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Water heaters
The oil I use also has the benefit of not freezing until below -47C (or
at least the pour point is -47C, FWIW). The boiling point is higher
than water, I believe.
http://www.shell-lubricants.com/products/pdf/DialaAX.pdf
Would the lower heat conductivity (perhaps half) be a disadvantage?
Could antifreeze be used? It's more readily available.
- Arthur
On Tue, 2006-11-14 at 19:24 -0800, Cor van de Water wrote:
Another thread talking about transformer oil suddenly made
my brain jump: if the amount of water in the heater system
makes the EV heater slow to respond, due to the heat
capacity of the water, as that needs to be heated up first,
then why not use _oil_ in the heater system?
Even if you have 1 gallon of oil (usually less) then the
lower heat capacity of oil should make it heat up quickly
with an elecment that is capable of sustaining the power
to get your car up to temperature.
(Victor indicates that 4kW is more than sufficient, but
that 2kW does not cut it in colder areas).
The relative heat capacity difference of oil versus water
is about 40% so the system that used to give heat after
1 minute now responds in 20 sec and the system with 5 min
until decent heat now speeds up to 2 min.
Any longer than 5 min heat response and you likely have
too low power heating element, even if you wait a long
time it likely does not heat up your car significantly
as it does not have enough power to feed into your cabin
if it can't get the heater system up to temp in that time
(except systems that store heat in large capacity 'boiler')
Regards,
Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know how to change the output voltage on the Zivan NG3 line of
battery chargers? This page:
http://www.zivanusa.com/NG3BatteryCharger.htm
shows the different models, each specifically for a certain nominal voltage
battery pack ranging from 12 volts up to 312 volts. What if I wanted to go
from a 120 volt pack to a 132 volt pack? Is it possible to modify an NG3
120-18 into an NG3 132-16?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That may be so, but it was being "sold" on EBay as being a freeway vehicle
with amazing range (100 miles as I recall.) I think both the knock-off site
and the seller may have been scams.
This leads me to have doubts about LA Vehicles (or whatever it's called)
which recently popped up. We'll see how they do at selling vehicles... but
they offer a huge variety at no fixed price. Same seller, BTW.
"Shadow" EVs pop up all the time. You can usually tell the liars by their
claims.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:10 PM
Subject: RE: China Knock-offs (Re: "Strange EV on eBay" round 2)
> Hi Evan,
>
> Yeah - it is not "smart" (pun intended) to copy someone's
> design and then offer it in one of the target markets of
> the original...
> Anyway - as you can see in the news report, it was mainly a
> fancy golf cart/NEV, not allowed on "public thoroughfares",
> though I am not sure if this means all public streets or the
> usual NEV limit of not allowed on streets with >35 MPH speed.
>
> Cor van de Water
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm pretty sure the production classes were untouched; I don't think
they saw any need to change them. I'd guess the reason they didn't
get much attention is that we don't see many production EVs on the
track... but of course this will change next year as the Tango and
Tesla move in to claim some records.
One weird thing: the new volate divisions list A2 at 301V-348V, and A3
at 349V and above. Then they cite an example Modified Conversion
running at 348V, and say it's class MC/A3. Ummm, shouldn't that be
MC/A2 then?
Another weird thing: the current record holder for SP/A is a 336V
vehicle, but class A is 241-300V. Given that the SP/A and SP/A3
records will fall next year, this record should really be moved to
SP/A2, or it will be gone...
jorg
On 11/9/06, Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
That reminds me of a question I had - the new NEDRA classes are all set out for
conversions, but the website doesn't say if the production classes were changed
or even still exist. I sent an e-mail to NEDRA but got no response. Does
anyone know the answer? Are there still NEDRA production classes for our
orphaned production EV's?
Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yeah, I thought they have all those
voltage classes so everyone with an
electric car can be a World Record Holder. It isn't fair if someone is
hogged them all.
How many cars compete in each class?
Jack
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I was just perusing the NEDRA sight and realized a current trend. A few
> vehicles are switching voltages up and down and gobbling up alot of the
> records. I understand in a free world to the victor goes the spoils but
> it makes me kinda sad. I always enjoyed checking out the record list of
> names from all different places, times, and configurations. Maybe it's
> just that I noticed my mother's 96 volt SC record got wiped recently.
> Are there any NEDRA limitations to how many voltage classes can be held
> by one vehicle? I have no doubt for instance that Dennis could take the
> CE dragster from top to bottom any day of the week he chooses, (Oops I
> forgot he's not a member), but you get my point. I have time slips to
> show the Orange Juice running WAY faster than some of the lower voltage
> records but since I had my sights on Ken and Jim's 240 volt number I
> never turned them in. Does anyone else feel this way or am I just too
> sentimental?
>
> Shawn Lawless
>
> PS: I guess it's out with the Zapi and lead, in with contactors and
> V28's, and down to Battery Beach with the Electropolitan to grab back
> that 96 volt record. Wanna go to Florida mom?
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive set of free safety and
> security tools, free access to millions of high-quality videos from
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>
>
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/11/maxwell_technol.html
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/modules/bmod0063-125v.asp
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes,
one way to avoid terminal lead to flow is to support it
at all sides.
However, I have the impression that terminal torque is
greatly overstressed, literally.
I have "Flag" type terminals on my batteries, which look
like a 1" wide x 1" long x 1/4" thick bar sticking straight
up out of the battery. I have experimented with the contact
resistance and found that when properly cleaning the
terminal (scraping the old lead away with a flat file
and applying Noalox to avoid new corrosion, then the
conact resistance is almost zero even with just a
hand-tightened bolt & nut.
I only use a large flat washer at the terminal side to
spread the force over some lead surface and the other
side has the lug surface, the stainless steel bolt is
held in place with a split washer to allow up to 1/32"
of movement before there is no pressure and an also
stainless steel nut.
I then torque them with my smallest ratchet, the advantage
is that its handle is too short to reach to the other
terminal, avoiding the danger of shorting the battery
while working on the terminal. I do not even torque
them with all my force, as I fear that I may deform the
terminal and cause a leak of the sealed batteries
(which are lying on their side)
After running them for almost 5000 miles I see a bit of
an indent from the washer, but there is not much lead
'creep' as you would expect when torqueing them down
at higher force.
I think the key is in getting them clean and making sure
there is good contact, even after some creep.
Fastening the lugs with a split washer under the nut
has worked well for me, without using large torque
and hurting the terminals.
I like the gentle approach where appropriate ;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
Hello John,
I have use the three different type of battery post. The L terminal, the
post with a hole in it and the standard auto post with a stud.
In all three I was a 2/0 size cable lug with a 3/8 hole. The L terminal
post had a recommended torque of 90 in.lbs., but would not stand up to the
pressure, they would continue to shrink back and the post would keep getting
flatten more until the this post develop cracks.
I must make a note on the ampere, I was using at the time. I was not
running a Zilla where the battery amperes would be about 50 amps and the
motor amps was 200 amps. I was running about 400 to 600 battery amps for
about 2 miles on a very steep hill to work every day.
The post with the hole in it was the worst, the surface was not large enough
and these post would squeeze down till it broke off the top section.
Then I tried the post with studs, because I wanted to used my terminal lugs.
The torque specs call for 90 to 105 inch lbs, but right from the start they
could not withstand more than 75 inch lbs. This terminal would mushroom
and/or bulge with the head of the stud trying to come out. At 600 amps
there was sometimes a lost of power, meaning the stud type had a high shrink
back because again the surface contact was not there.
To solve this problem at the time, was that I order ring type battery
connectors from Wirthco . com. These are like the marine type but is a
forge brass, with a removable bolt that is gold plate instead of the cast
in bolts. I got these for $1.75 each at the time. They could be way up to
$2.00 or more now.
The ring band on these type of terminals are narrower then the standard
rings, but have a groove spline like contact. You can torque these down
until you are blue in the face. I also use a stainless washer, lock washer
and nut on the stud on the post to provide down ward pressure on this
battery terminal and cause more internal pressure of post against the inside
of this ring type connector.
I now can torque the battery post stud to 105 inch lb or even over with out
pulling out, which the ring connector is providing pressure around the post
and the head of the stud.
The part no of these ring terminals I use is #22205 for a Positive &
Negative Pair. They come with a wing-nut, but I replace that with a
stainless steel nut and lock washer.
Later I transfer these ring terminals to my Trojan T-145's which the battery
post was at a different spacing then the US batteries, but I can just
rotate the battery clamps to fit the existing cable lugs length.
Again, I can torque all these studs and bolts until I and red and blue in
the face about 5 years ago. These forge brass ring clamps will stretch and
not break like a cast battery clamp. I check them one time in the first
year and today they are still maintaining a torque over 100 in.lbs. while
running a Zilla of which my average battery amp is now between 50 to 100
amps and sometimes peak to 180 amps.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:53 PM
Subject: Lead acid terminal types
I am in the process of procuring batteries and would like some input on
terminal types for flooded lead acid batteries. I realize ElectroAuto
recommends the 'L' style terminal and in "Convert It" they present what
looks to be a good argument against the types with a steel post
sticking out of the terminal (cold creep if you keep them tight, loose
connection, high resistance and possible fire hazard if you do not keep
them tight all the time).
I ordered a set of batteries (with L terminals) from one of the US
Battery dealers in my region, however they showed up with what look
like standard or UT terminals (with the steel post and a nut). I sent
them back and now I'm not sure the dealer is still willing to deal with
me any more.
I have since discovered my local town has a Interstate dealer that
sells what appears to be a re-branded US Battery product. The
interstate specs indicate 2 terminal types are available: auto w/ hole
or thread stud.
Is the auto with hole a suitable substitute for the 'L' terminal?
I would prefer to not use the standard automotive style because I don't
want to by the 48 terminal connectors I would need, in particular
because the "kit" I got from electroauto cam with lugs.
Thanks,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Howard,
To get that range you will have to either carry enough lead at a high voltage
and very high ampere-hour rating that will weigh the same weight of the VW and
only discharge to 50% DOD (Depth of Discharge) or sometimes call SOS (State of
Charge) and still have the range of 75 miles.
A EE friend of mine built his first EV using a VW bug. He used eight 12V floor
sweeper deep cycle batteries at 195 AH for a 96V unit. He can only get about
30 miles to 50% DOD. This was driving in a city where there is no flat grades,
it either up or down. Some roads I go on may have a long upgrade for 5 miles
or longer.
If it was on a flat grade and you pull down to 20% SOC or 80% DOD, than this
rig might get to 75 miles.
My range is 55 miles at 50% DOD or it might be 100 miles at 90% DOD with a 7000
lbs EV with 2500 lbs of 260 AH batteries at 180 volts using about 80 battery
amps at 35 mph at a overall gear ratio of 13.925:1. At one time I had 3000 lbs
of batteries at 300 AH which got me to 78 miles at 50% DOD at 60 mph at 180
battery amps at a overall gear ratio of 5.57:1
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: howard maroz<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:24 PM
Subject: Batteries
I am new to this list and I'm sure this question has been asked many times in
the past. I am building a Wombat Kitcar on a VW Beetle chassis and I initially
thought I could get a reliable 75 mi range at 55 mph using golf cart batteries.
After much research it does not look like I will achieve this range using lead
acid batteries of any kind. I need some help in learning what options are
available to give me this range. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Howard
[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Mortgage for $1,698/mo - Calculate
new house payment
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the first question is, why do you need 75 miles range? Is this your
daily commute or just the maximum distance you want to go on the rare
occasion?
Second important question; how deep are your pockets? LiIOn could do that
easily, but it might be cheaper to buy a Porsche.
> I am new to this list and I'm sure this question has been asked many times
> in the past. I am building a Wombat Kitcar on a VW Beetle chassis and I
> initially thought I could get a reliable 75 mi range at 55 mph using golf
> cart batteries. After much research it does not look like I will achieve
> this range using lead acid batteries of any kind. I need some help in
> learning what options are available to give me this range. Any
> suggestions are appreciated.
>
> Howard
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sponsored Link
>
> Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Mortgage for $1,698/mo -
> Calculate new house payment
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep,
48 of their 2.7V caps in series with some balancing
electronics, almost like a battery bank, but only able
to give you one take-off...
Now where's EEstor hiding with their 3500V capacitor?
That one was spec'ed to be powerful enough to carry you
hundreds of miles. Now that's different cake. (Dutch proverb)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lock Hughes
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 9:58 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Maxwell Tech Intro's 125v Ultracap Module for heavy Hybrid and
EVs
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/11/maxwell_technol.html
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/modules/bmod0063-125v.asp
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have to ask you can't afford it. LOL....LR......
I think the next batch is around 85k.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Tesla Motors Honored with Award from Pop Mechanics
>
> I give up - I couldn't find the price on their website. Anyone know what
> the price of a Tesla is?
>
> Phil
>
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> >
> >You don't have to wonder. Visit their website: www.teslamotors.com.
> >All the info is there.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Sent: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 3:08 PM
> >Subject: Re: Tesla Motors Honored with Award from Pop Mechanics
> >
> >
> >I want one :)
> >Wonder what they are selling for?
> >Way, way, beyond my means I am sure.
> >
> >-Tehben
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get today's hot entertainment gossip
> http://movies.msn.com/movies/hotgossip?icid=T002MSN03A07001
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Ah! The old Battery Terminal Thing, again! I'm SURE that the battery
makers lie awake nights trying to come up with stupid and useless terminals!
Whatthehell is wrong with the old style AUTOMOTIVE posts, the kind that have
been around since Christ was a kid? Or would have been on what Jesus was
driving. In lieu of the automotive jobs, your best bet would be the "Flag"
or Marine types, the solid flat lug style thing that boat batteries often
have. You can use nice copper buss bars with these, a S.S. bolt an' nut and
flat washers on both sides. Automotives? Yeah I love em! Get them at a
battery distributer, I like the lugs with no. #3 size holes to stuff my #2
cables in and get all the frizzies in, too. And solder them with a acy.
torch. Not wanting to get the old flame war going with Solder? or Crimp? I
have soldered terminals for YEARS and you can UN solder them for changes in
plans. I have gotten pretty good at recasting new posts on batteries.Melting
down lead wheel balancing weights and the hacked off "Origional"
posts,saving the freed S.S. bolt in the process,made my own ingots to cast
with. Not for the faint hearted, though! Best bet is to buy yur batteries at
a REAL battery place. They will have a guy there who is a torch artist, who
can cast ya a useful post on a battery. Hell! It is YOUR money, order the
posts you want! The first time, you will be happy thousands of smiles(Miles)
down the road, and no melted posts!
My two lugs worth.
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2006 1:02 AM
Subject: RE: Lead acid terminal types
> Yes,
> one way to avoid terminal lead to flow is to support it
> at all sides.
> However, I have the impression that terminal torque is
> greatly overstressed, literally.
> I have "Flag" type terminals on my batteries, which look
> like a 1" wide x 1" long x 1/4" thick bar sticking straight
> up out of the battery. I have experimented with the contact
> resistance and found that when properly cleaning the
> terminal (scraping the old lead away with a flat file
> and applying Noalox to avoid new corrosion, then the
> conact resistance is almost zero even with just a
> hand-tightened bolt & nut.
> I only use a large flat washer at the terminal side to
> spread the force over some lead surface and the other
> side has the lug surface, the stainless steel bolt is
> held in place with a split washer to allow up to 1/32"
> of movement before there is no pressure and an also
> stainless steel nut.
> I then torque them with my smallest ratchet, the advantage
> is that its handle is too short to reach to the other
> terminal, avoiding the danger of shorting the battery
> while working on the terminal. I do not even torque
> them with all my force, as I fear that I may deform the
> terminal and cause a leak of the sealed batteries
> (which are lying on their side)
> After running them for almost 5000 miles I see a bit of
> an indent from the washer, but there is not much lead
> 'creep' as you would expect when torqueing them down
> at higher force.
> I think the key is in getting them clean and making sure
> there is good contact, even after some creep.
> Fastening the lugs with a split washer under the nut
> has worked well for me, without using large torque
> and hurting the terminals.
>
> I like the gentle approach where appropriate ;-)
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 8:55 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Lead acid terminal types
>
>
> Hello John,
>
> I have use the three different type of battery post. The L terminal, the
> post with a hole in it and the standard auto post with a stud.
>
> In all three I was a 2/0 size cable lug with a 3/8 hole. The L terminal
> post had a recommended torque of 90 in.lbs., but would not stand up to the
> pressure, they would continue to shrink back and the post would keep
getting
> flatten more until the this post develop cracks.
>
> I must make a note on the ampere, I was using at the time. I was not
> running a Zilla where the battery amperes would be about 50 amps and the
> motor amps was 200 amps. I was running about 400 to 600 battery amps for
> about 2 miles on a very steep hill to work every day.
>
> The post with the hole in it was the worst, the surface was not large
enough
> and these post would squeeze down till it broke off the top section.
>
> Then I tried the post with studs, because I wanted to used my terminal
lugs.
> The torque specs call for 90 to 105 inch lbs, but right from the start
they
> could not withstand more than 75 inch lbs. This terminal would mushroom
> and/or bulge with the head of the stud trying to come out. At 600 amps
> there was sometimes a lost of power, meaning the stud type had a high
shrink
> back because again the surface contact was not there.
>
> To solve this problem at the time, was that I order ring type battery
> connectors from Wirthco . com. These are like the marine type but is a
> forge brass, with a removable bolt that is gold plate instead of the cast
> in bolts. I got these for $1.75 each at the time. They could be way up
to
> $2.00 or more now.
>
> The ring band on these type of terminals are narrower then the standard
> rings, but have a groove spline like contact. You can torque these down
> until you are blue in the face. I also use a stainless washer, lock
washer
> and nut on the stud on the post to provide down ward pressure on this
> battery terminal and cause more internal pressure of post against the
inside
> of this ring type connector.
>
> I now can torque the battery post stud to 105 inch lb or even over with
out
> pulling out, which the ring connector is providing pressure around the
post
> and the head of the stud.
>
> The part no of these ring terminals I use is #22205 for a Positive &
> Negative Pair. They come with a wing-nut, but I replace that with a
> stainless steel nut and lock washer.
>
> Later I transfer these ring terminals to my Trojan T-145's which the
battery
> post was at a different spacing then the US batteries, but I can just
> rotate the battery clamps to fit the existing cable lugs length.
>
> Again, I can torque all these studs and bolts until I and red and blue in
> the face about 5 years ago. These forge brass ring clamps will stretch and
> not break like a cast battery clamp. I check them one time in the first
> year and today they are still maintaining a torque over 100 in.lbs. while
> running a Zilla of which my average battery amp is now between 50 to 100
> amps and sometimes peak to 180 amps.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 14, 2006 5:53 PM
> Subject: Lead acid terminal types
>
>
> I am in the process of procuring batteries and would like some input on
> terminal types for flooded lead acid batteries. I realize ElectroAuto
> recommends the 'L' style terminal and in "Convert It" they present what
> looks to be a good argument against the types with a steel post
> sticking out of the terminal (cold creep if you keep them tight, loose
> connection, high resistance and possible fire hazard if you do not keep
> them tight all the time).
>
> I ordered a set of batteries (with L terminals) from one of the US
> Battery dealers in my region, however they showed up with what look
> like standard or UT terminals (with the steel post and a nut). I sent
> them back and now I'm not sure the dealer is still willing to deal with
> me any more.
>
> I have since discovered my local town has a Interstate dealer that
> sells what appears to be a re-branded US Battery product. The
> interstate specs indicate 2 terminal types are available: auto w/ hole
> or thread stud.
>
> Is the auto with hole a suitable substitute for the 'L' terminal?
>
> I would prefer to not use the standard automotive style because I don't
> want to by the 48 terminal connectors I would need, in particular
> because the "kit" I got from electroauto cam with lugs.
>
> Thanks,
> John
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.5/533 - Release Date: 11/13/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor:
Thanks for the thoughts. I'm used to the 2kw heater in the Prizm; it
takes about 5 minutes to warm up the car on cold days, I would prefer
something a bit faster for the truck.
A question: What do you think about the 6kw unit instead of the 4kw? I
have a 300 volt pack and 6kw is really only about 20a draw. I could
handle that with 10 gauge wiring and a 40a 300vdc relay.
Chris
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
The 4 kW MES water heater I use in ACRX is very comfortable -
I start feel warmth coming out in about 30 sec after "on" and
in about 1-1.5 min it's as hot as it will get. Much faster than
ICE version anyway.
Granted, not as quick as ceramic element heater, but no one who
use water heater one died yet from freezing.
Would I want it to warm up quicker? Sure. 5 sec would be nice.
1 sec even nicer. But, personally, it makes no difference
in my "EV life".
The cost is different story, but I can tell you this: installing
$600 unit takes about 1 hour and you don't take your dash apart.
Making and installing ceramic heater will take more than one day,
which may or may not make sense depending how much your time worth.
I can't afford to drop everything else I'm doing and start installing
ceramic heater. It's a solid week of EV down time and lost business.
Far more than $600 for me.
If you love take your EV apart and put it back together, and have
great satisfaction of saving money than saving time, or just
absolutely cannot put up waiting 30-60 sec, water heater
is probably not for you. Ceramic heater would be fine choice if made
with all the safety components integrated just like water heaters
come with.
FWIW, I'm not aware or any OEM EV using ceramic heaters. Just back
from EVS22 where I looked at this very thing and asked around.
No one uses them.
That's not to say it is a bad choice for a conversion, OEMs
apparently have different priorities vs. hobbyists.
Victor
p.s. Re-reading this does sound like biased marketing plug. But it's
just an info. EVDL is wrong place to advertise such things, so I keep
quiet, just sometimes letting people know when something new becomes
available so they know have one more choice. Nothing more.
Lee Hart wrote:
Mike Harvey wrote:
Metric Mind has some on their website. They're a bit pricey though,
and from what I've heard from folks that installed them is they take
a long time to heat up.
Slow warmup time is a frequent complaint against electric water
heaters. But here's a thought...
The water heater in your home is also slow to recover when it has a
tank of cold water to heat up. So, you leave it "on" all the time.
Modern water heater tanks are very well insulated, so the standby heat
loss is very low.
Why not do the same in your EV? Super-insulate the tank, and leave the
heater on (cycling on/off to maintain temperature) all the time. The
extra energy usage per day could be made very low, and provided by AC
power during your daily charging. Now you would have "instant" heat
when you start driving.
--- End Message ---
