EV Digest 6156
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Polarity on compound motor?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Polarity on compound motor?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Battery questions
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: degree of slope
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by Tehben Dean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Rotation, brushwear and motor preferences, was Polarity on compound motor?
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Michaela's requests (was RE: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW-
Misinformation?)
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery questions
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: New Thunder-Sky Lithium Ion Battery 30Ah - 800Ah
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: Rotation, brushwear and motor preferences, was Polarity on compound
motor?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Large Saft NMH 12/6v
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New Thunder-Sky Lithium Ion Battery 30Ah - 800Ah
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New Thunder-Sky Lithium Ion Battery 30Ah - 800Ah
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EV Austin
by "Sean Korb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery questions
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Polarity on compound motor?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Rotation, brushwear and motor preferences, was Polarity on
compound motor?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) MesDea air-con (was:Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW- Misinformation?)
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Need help with some acceleration calculations I did
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Chris, Roland, all
First off does anyone have a motor pic on the EV
album?? Lee's says an ADC motor even, just looking to
see what motor came with the car?? Wayland says it's
the same as Marko's motor in Fiap. If so this is an
older Prestolite with solid wire brushleads which will
make moding this motor harder compared to a newer
cable leaded motor. The issue for most will be that
the lead is silver soldered directly to the field
coils. Removing and reattaching a connection like
this will result in sever insulation burning if you're
not really careful.
For those who might want (or need) to try (hey Massey
8^ ) A little trick I learned was to use your breathe
and blow steady on the area while torching it. This
will blow out the insulation fireups. Angle your
flame away from any insulation and use a hot flame,
you want to get in and get out as fast as you can. I
like to have an air nozzle handy to get the temp down
quicker.
Okay so here's your choice, you can attach a terminal
to that lead connection area to both coils and leads
and you'd have a 4 post motor.
Option two would be to make a new lead set ( you could
just use the old set switching the connection
point)and just leave it a 2 post. All you're doing is
switching which leads go to which brush holders (I
call it plumbing a motor). Lets say that the terminal
leads go to the 3 and 9 spots they now need to go to
the 6 and 12 holders. On this option you need two
leads mods but with the 4 stud option you're needing
to drill new holes, brass studs, ins, etc. You'd
probably going to need to extend the shunt lead to
connect to the proper holder.
To install the new lead to the coils heat and set the
lead with silver solder and then attach it to the
coils to reduce burning the coil insulation. You'll
also need to reinsulate the leads to keep them from
shorting.
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Snip> If the motor is set to run in one direction, you
> should check the angle of the brushes setting on the
> commentator. The brushes may be angle counter to the
> rotor direction, so you do not chip away the edges
> of the brush.
>
> My brushes are set at 15 degrees to the left, so the
> motor is set to go clockwise or the same direction
> my engine turn when it was a ICE.
>
> A motor shop might be able to breakout the
> armature-series winding for you and rebuild a new
> brush holder.
Hey Roland
This was actually discussed last year after a shop
told a member here the same thing. These motors are
capable of running either way, in fact even the Warp
motors have angled brushes and can be ran either
rotation. If you're chipping brushes there's a bigger
issue at hand.
Anyway just my take on things, I hope this helps.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Husted<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 6:25 PM
Subject: Re: Polarity on compound motor?
Jim,
When I got my Warp 9, which is a temporary motor when my GE 11 is in
maintenance, I slowing rotated by hand CW, it went click, click, click. If I
rotated it CCW it would go clunk, clunk, clunk.
So either one of the commentator segments was high and this commentator was
very rough. Not Micro Mirror, which GE said of my GE motor which
goes...........
Also the commentator was not V-groove and the edge were very sharp. I ran it
with 14 volts and stone and V-groove the commentator. This operation chip up
the edge brushes which finally worn down to a sharp edge.
Now rotating by hand in the CW, it goes tick, tick and after I ran it under
200 amp load for about 1000 miles, the sound is gone.
Roland
Hey Roland
This was actually discussed last year after a shop
told a member here the same thing. These motors are
capable of running either way, in fact even the Warp
motors have angled brushes and can be ran either
rotation. If you're chipping brushes there's a bigger
issue at hand.
Anyway just my take on things, I hope this helps.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sponsored Link
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Battery questions
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:06:53 -0800
I'l bet a battery genius here will know these answers fasters than I can
find them on my own.
In general what is the relationship between distance between plates, amount
of electrolyte, surface area of the plates and other such physical
characteristics and capacity volts amps or charging speed of a lead acid
battery.
More plates means more volts I know.
Actually, it is the number of cells - not plates - that determines the
battery voltage. Each cell in a lead acid battery is nominally 2 volts,
regardless of the number of plates per cell.
All 12 V batteries have 6 cells, but they have differing numbers of plates.
The number of plates per cell determines the maximum current and capacity (
in amp-hours) of each cell ( and, therefore, of the battery).
Phil
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Out of curiosity, why would you want to go with NiFe for home use?
----- Original Message -----
From: "John H" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:40 PM
Subject: Newbie question about batteries
> Hi,
> I found this board while looking for sources of Nickel Iron batteries.
> Although I probably won't build an electric vehicle, I am in need of NiFe
> batteries for our off-grid home.
> If anyone has any sources for these batteries (new or used), whether they
be
> original Edison Cells or Eagle-Picher or any others, I would appreciate
the
> info.
> Thanks,
> John
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howard -
the most relevant thing to know about this hill ( to determine how
difficult it would be to get an ev up this hill) would be the overall
elevation change from bottom to top.
The easiest way to do that would probably be to get a USGS topo map of the
region and read that information from the map.
Let us know if you find that out. By knowing the approximate vehicle
weight, you can figure out, for example, about how many golf-cart-battery
equivalents it would take to get the vehicle up the hill.
If that number is 1 or 2, you're probably OK, If that number, is, say, 35,
then you'd be in trouble.
Phil
From: howard maroz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: degree of slope
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 09:22:21 -0800 (PST)
My original post regarding 10 degree of slope was calculated using a
digital level on the floor of my car. It read 4 degrees on a level surface
and 14 degrees at the steepest portion of the hill. The sign at the top of
the hill states "7% grade, trucks use low gear". I have no reason not to
trust the level but the hill is not 10 degree continuous. Also, it is only
3 mi long, not 5 mi as I originally stated. My concern remains that if it
is not reasonably feasable to find a motor and battery supply, I might have
to abandon the project. I already have a significant investment into this
project so this is a big delima for me. I put my Ford Explorer in nuetral
at the top of the hill and coasted to the bottom by just tapping the brakes
on the way down. I don't know how this test would relate to my electric
Beetle.
Howard
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.beutilityfree.com/ has Chinese-made NiFe batteries in a
variety of sizes.
That is the only source I know of but the guy is very unhelpful and
unfriendly in my experience.
Tehben
John H <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi,
I found this board while looking for sources of Nickel Iron batteries.
Although I probably won't build an electric vehicle, I am in need
of NiFe
batteries for our off-grid home.
If anyone has any sources for these batteries (new or used),
whether they be
original Edison Cells or Eagle-Picher or any others, I would
appreciate the
info.
Thanks,
John
---------------------------------
Sponsored Link
Mortgage rates near 39yr lows. $510,000 Mortgage for $1,698/mo -
Calculate new house payment
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim,
>
> When I got my Warp 9, which is a temporary motor
> when my GE 11 is in maintenance, I slowing rotated
> by hand CW, it went click, click, click. If I
> rotated it CCW it would go clunk, clunk, clunk.
>
> So either one of the commentator segments was high
> and this commentator was very rough. Not Micro
> Mirror, which GE said of my GE motor which
> goes...........
>
> Also the commentator was not V-groove and the edge
> were very sharp. I ran it with 14 volts and stone
> and V-groove the commentator. This operation chip
> up the edge brushes which finally worn down to a
> sharp edge.
>
> Now rotating by hand in the CW, it goes tick, tick
> and after I ran it under 200 amp load for about
> 1000 miles, the sound is gone.
>
> Roland
Hey Roland
As you know I was advised of your Warp motor noise
issue with CC's from George Hamstra. It sounds as if
they just didn't seat the brushes really good on that
one. Just bumping or jarring the brushes (via freight
handlers even) (on a new not absolute seated brushes)
can make them chatter until they settle back in.
Nice to hear she's seated up for you by the way. I've
actually been wondering how the motors working out
being you're not running the lightest EV out there
running an 9" 8^ P just be nice FYI to get feedback
about.
As to the "V" vs. "U" undercutter blades it's an old
augument among rebuilders 8^ ) I've always used the
"U" type myself. I guess for one, other than GE (and
only on some models) all the other OEM's use "U" blade
cuts. It leaves a tighter groove resulting in
"usually" quieter commutation. Downside to using a
"U" type is you can miss some mica leaving a thin wall
of it along the groove edge, this is why I hand X-acto
each bar, actually several times each 8^ )
Using a "V" blade allows for a little more slop as it
will get the groove to the copper but at the cost of
removing some of the copper. The other issue that
makes my oppinion is that if grooving occurs it gets
to the mica line much faster than with a "U" cut which
causes really sever brushwear.
GE makes a really awesome big motor but the smaller
they get the less I'm impressed let's say. There are
several 6" and 7" lift motor types that all three MFG
(GE, ADC, Prestolite) make a replacement motor for and
I'd take an ADC or a Presto any day of the week.
Another added bonus to both ADC and Prestolites are
the parts are much kinder to the wallet. A molded
stud terminal for a GE runs $30.00 a pop, thats
$120.00 to replace 4 terms, and don't get me started
about brush sets that cost more than armatures or
coils LMAO! I may be known for fancy premadana, glory
sucking, race moded motors but I'm just as into
helping the guy with a buget with at least advise from
my point of view as someone who repairs motors.
Being I've been a little absant from the list it's
been fun to talk motor stuff 8^ )
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sponsored Link
Online or Campus degree Associate's, Bachelor's, or Master's
in less than one year.www.findtherightschool.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> Hello Michaela,
Hey Claudio:
> IIRC, you've previously offered to put funds on the table, and made a call
> out seeking offers and received none (at least on the first two items),
> but I don't recall any actual dollar value being posted.
Yes I did - but since I have no idea how much one would have to pay, I
left it to others to make me an offer. None received though.
> If you still don't get any takers, from the entire EVDL, then the simple
> truth is that the dollars just aren't there to warrant the work/parts
> involved and/or the gamble that there will be more willing buyers like you
> out there to spread the development costs.
I don't believe that is an issue for the hobbyist going into business.
After all, most have family, jobs and simply no time to custom build
stuff. This is an issue for so called 'EV suppliers'. Or R&D businesses.
Plenty of companies are trying to invent 'the' battery. If it would be me,
I would built small, self contained 4 Kbtu a/c units for EVs, small boats,
hunting blinds or other mobile applications. As a matter of fact, some
fellow sells small 24V a/c units for golf carts (not water/ice based) - he
is asking almost 5000 $ per unit. I am pretty sure a small unit could
easily be built for half that much. Now - what about a regen unit? A
simple system that slides on to the auxiliary shaft and would be attached
to the motor. A small controller circuit connected to the brake lights -
and voila. Could be sold for about 1000 Dollars. I could go on for pages.
People are willing to pay good money for good parts - Zilla's are a
perfect example.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think if you look at www.howstuffworks.com, I think you'll find the info
you are looking for. Their information is rather general, but they have a
link to www.batteryfaq.org/carfaq.htm at the end of their "how batteries
work" page that explains in more detail, including how the batt is
constructed. It explains both plate and spiral wound batts.
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 12:06 PM
Subject: Battery questions
> I'l bet a battery genius here will know these answers fasters than I can
> find them on my own.
>
> In general what is the relationship between distance between plates,
> amount of electrolyte, surface area of the plates and other such
> physical characteristics and capacity volts amps or charging speed of a
> lead acid battery.
>
>
> More plates means more volts I know.
>
> But what about the greater detail of therest?
>
> And if 20 lead acid batteries all used the same circulated electrolyte
> pumped between them wouldn't that ensure they charged and discharged
> evenly?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If their any good would be the big question. If someone would get a sample
and test that would be interesting. I know there is some unhappy buyers of the
old Thunder-Sky here in Portland. Do your prices below take into account any
volume discount? I see they are offering up to 40 percent off on a large
order.
Don
In a message dated 11/21/2006 12:52:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The interesting thing about these cells it that they're starting to
compete with high end lead acid prices. Comparing them to Optima
yellow top D34/78 costing $160 with the following spec:
* 12 Volts
* 55 Amp Hours
* [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 750 Amps
* [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 870 Amps
* J240 Life Cycle: 10,000 to 12,000 cycles
* Cycle Life - Deep Cycle: 350 Cycles
* Length: 10 in.
* Width: 6.8 in.
* Height: 7.8 in.
Presuming we get 30 Ah at 1/C rate the cost per kWh for the optima is $450
At 350 Cycles the kWh cost / cycle is $1.28
The cost per kWh for the LFP cells is $625. At 80% dod we get 1000
cycles (or so they claim) so the kWh cost / cycle is $0.625
Not accounting for sag, the cost per kW for the optima is $16
The cost per killowatt for the LFP cell is $208
So clearly the optima is wastly superior when it comes to power, which
also illustrates that the comparison is a bit unfair to the Optima.
This is ofcourse not a complete comparison and we all know what they
say about liars, damn liars and battery vendors. I think Chinese
battery vendors is one step worse.
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Husted<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 9:15 PM
Subject: Rotation, brushwear and motor preferences, was Polarity on compound
motor?
Hello Jim,
When I V grooved, all I did was took take off the top of the U a little bit.
The top edges of the segments were so sharp that it can cut your fingers.
I kept the Warp 9 at or under 200 motor amps all the time while I had the
motor in. Could do 36 mph in 2ne gear that had a overall ratio of 13.925:1.
If I shifted to 3rd the ampere would shoot up to 300 amps if I accelerated to
45 mph which was the max speed inside the city anyway. It would then level off
back to 200 amps while maintaining a steady speed.
It seem to not to make any difference if I was in 1st gear at a ratio of 19.5
at 25 mph or 2nd gear at 36 mph or 3rd gear at 5.57, the motor ampere was the
same.
The GE motor in 3rd gear at 60 mph is reading 180 motor amps, because
according to GE, it develops more torque at a lower ampere at a lower rpm
compare to a smaller motor. The motor rpm at 60 mph is about 4000 rpm.
The maximum speed in 5.57:1 final ratio is 92 mph at 6000 rpm which was done
once with 300 ah battery pack. This was done during a endurance run of 1056
miles in 24 hours, which the speed was kept at 50 to 60 mph averaging 44 mph.
The original brushes ran from 1976 to 2000, which the rear brushes was about
1/2 worn while the front brushes was at 3/4 inch length. I bought two spare
sets of GE brushes back in 1985 that cost $495.00. Two sets of Warp 9 brushes
cost $344.00. Both of these brushes are silver graphite, but the GE brushes
are gray shinning metal looking type that are very hard. The Warp brushes are
softer.
When the second set of GE brushes ware down to 3/4 length, I will make a new
set by pairing it up with the 3/4 length in the first set. So they should last
me at least another 10 years.
Roland
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sponsored Link
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in less than one year.www.findtherightschool.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From what I was told it will air next Thursday morning, November 30
on the Fox Morning news.
Stacey, the reporter, said the interview is going to be part of a
story Fox is doing on the Electric Drive Transportation Conference at
the DC Convention Center which will be next week from November 28 to
the 30.
Tesla will be at the conference and President Bush will be giving a
speech there. I heard that today but not sure if its official or not.
Other guest speakers include the Presidents of Toyota and Edison
International. Sponsors and Partners include Plug-In Partners, EV
World, Southern California Edison, Honda, Toyota, SMUD, etc. So this
is going to be a pretty big EV Conference.
EVA/DC was asked to help out with the Ride and Drive on Tuesday
morning which is cool. All the major automakers plan to have their
hydrogen fuel cell cars and plug-in hybrids available for test rides.
I imagine some other EVs, like the Tesla, will be rolled out as well
and available for test rides.
http://www.electricdrive.org/conference2006/
I'm really interested in how they are going to incorporate my run-in-
the-mill conversion with these high-tech EVs. They could cut me
completely out.
But Stacey and her cameraman were pretty impressed with the
conversion and how fast I got the car to go (60 mph in a 45 mph zone)
and they couldn't stop talking about how I could squeal the tires
when we took off so I think I made a good impression. The producer
emailed today and said that Stacey mentioned the interview "went
exceptionally well."
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC (EVA/DC)
http://www.evadc.org
National Electric Drag Racing Association
http://www.nedra.com
On Nov 21, 2006, at 8:20 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: November 20, 2006 9:50:28 PM EST
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
When will it air and where?
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 1:46 pm, Chip Gribben wrote:
Just had a great interview with Stacey Cohan who is the Fox News
reporter. Stacey used to work at Channel 9.
Apparently, the interview is part of Fox's coverage of the EDTA
Conference coming up next week. I wasn't aware of that until they
mentioned when this would air. Stacey said she would be at the
conference covering that event.
They wanted to get some footage of a homebuilt EV and interview
people who are building their own alt fuel vehicles.
I took them for a ride down Route 198 and squealed the tires
taking off and they thought that was cool. Then we came back and
they got in their car and filmed the EV going down the road.
After we came back from that trip they filmed some of the other
EV projects I'm building in the garage including a custom low-
rider bike built with WaveCrest parts. They filmed it with the
rear hub motor spinning. Stacey thought the hub motor was really
neat.
They also took some pictures of the Elek-Trac.
So I think they left pretty impressed with the whole EV thing.
Just as they were leaving Dave came down the street in his JET
EV. Dave was able to make some good points saying that the
backyard hobbyists are responsible for starting and keeping the
EV movement alive which I thought was cool.
Chip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.powerstream.com/Ni-Prism.htm
12 - 100AH NiMH rectangular stackable cells (like the SAFT NiCD ones). A
120V 25AH (no peukerts) string would be $4410, and weigh 154 lbs with a
250A max current. A 120V 50AH string would be $8700 and weigh 242(!)
lbs, with a 300A max current. The max would be a 120V 100AH string at
$16300 and weigh 418lbs with a 400A max current. These would be with a
simple series configuration.
There's also the option of using 4 strings of 25Ah 120V giving you a
maximum current of a 1000 amps, or for simpolicity two string of 50Ah
for 600Amps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Please pardon my battery ignorance. I was wondering the viability of
these large capacity safts.
Thanks,
Mark
http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/NHP_en.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What was the nature of their unhappiness? Did the batteries not perform
according to the specs, or something else?
The discharge rates of the new one is much better, but still relatively
weak. The recharge rate is also fairly weak.
The specs on the thunder-sky website
http://www.thunder-sky.com/detal/TS-LFP80AHA.pdf
do not say 1000 cycles, but "> 300", well 1000 is > 300, but so is 301.
What about their calendar life?
What are the BMS and charger costs?
Jack
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
If their any good would be the big question. If someone would get a sample
and test that would be interesting. I know there is some unhappy buyers of the
old Thunder-Sky here in Portland. Do your prices below take into account any
volume discount? I see they are offering up to 40 percent off on a large
order.
Don
In a message dated 11/21/2006 12:52:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The interesting thing about these cells it that they're starting to
compete with high end lead acid prices. Comparing them to Optima
yellow top D34/78 costing $160 with the following spec:
* 12 Volts
* 55 Amp Hours
* [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 750 Amps
* [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 870 Amps
* J240 Life Cycle: 10,000 to 12,000 cycles
* Cycle Life - Deep Cycle: 350 Cycles
* Length: 10 in.
* Width: 6.8 in.
* Height: 7.8 in.
Presuming we get 30 Ah at 1/C rate the cost per kWh for the optima is $450
At 350 Cycles the kWh cost / cycle is $1.28
The cost per kWh for the LFP cells is $625. At 80% dod we get 1000
cycles (or so they claim) so the kWh cost / cycle is $0.625
Not accounting for sag, the cost per kW for the optima is $16
The cost per killowatt for the LFP cell is $208
So clearly the optima is wastly superior when it comes to power, which
also illustrates that the comparison is a bit unfair to the Optima.
This is ofcourse not a complete comparison and we all know what they
say about liars, damn liars and battery vendors. I think Chinese
battery vendors is one step worse.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as I know the quality control was nonexistent, several people
got very old cells with much less than advertised capacity. Internal
resistance was also very high leading to excessive sagging.
There are many discrepancies between the data sheet and the advertised
numbers on eversprings website. For example if you look at the
datasheet for the cobalt (LCP) cells they claim 2000 cycles on those.
I think someone mixed up the data, which makes me doubt they ever got
over those quality control issues.
On 11/21/06, Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
What was the nature of their unhappiness? Did the batteries not perform
according to the specs, or something else?
The discharge rates of the new one is much better, but still relatively
weak. The recharge rate is also fairly weak.
The specs on the thunder-sky website
http://www.thunder-sky.com/detal/TS-LFP80AHA.pdf
do not say 1000 cycles, but "> 300", well 1000 is > 300, but so is 301.
What about their calendar life?
What are the BMS and charger costs?
Jack
--
www.electric-lemon.com
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MARK DUTKO wrote:
Please pardon my battery ignorance. I was wondering the viability of
these large capacity safts.
Thanks,
Mark
http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/NHP_en.pdf
There is also these:
http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/NHE_en.pdf
Since people aren't currently using them, I assume there is a good
reason (cost/availability)...
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Hello, I thought I'd introduce myself.
I've come into some parts (well, I waited out the owners long enough for
them to get tired of them) and I'm setting off to make my first electric
vehicle. I have a '59 Austin A35 http://spkorb.org/austin.html, and I just
pulled a GE 23HP series wound motor, Curtis controller and transmission from
an EV S-10. The S-10 is destined to be a fossil processing drag racer,
while I got the naughty bits:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/sets/72157594379546295/
The batteries suffered a melted post, and the charger was found one morning
in a puddle of water an inch deep. The owner had a kid, and after 10 years
of looking at the truck and getting "tired" he decided to sell it. The
Austin was similarly moldy, but only in the special way a British car can
be. Again, a kid precipitated my good luck. Yay me!
I've ordered some metal to fix the rust on the Austin, but that's the easy
part. It looks like I can remove the gas tank and drop the trunk floor to
get 6 12V batteries back there, and that leaves 4 or 5 (if I want a separate
battery for the accessories) for the front. It's a small car, but I think
they'll fit. I've got some time to consider battery choices. The previous
owner got some Trojans from a dealer nearby, and they're inexpensive (like
the rest of the project). I also have a couple of 15V old (early '80s)
computer disk drive power supplies. Ceramic bridge and regulated power to
20 amps.
The chassis needs work too. I need to fab up a shock bracket to take
coilovers on the rear suspension. The leaf springs and lever shocks won't
support a rack of batteries without help. I can get some performance MG
Midget springs for the front. The brakes are going to be more creative.
The stock setup is a single circuit hydraulic for the front and back. It
also has little drum brakes all around. The rear system shares a single
slave cylinder that pushes rods activating the rear shoes. Sounds like
instant death, even without the extra weight. I'm hoping some 1/4" plate,
Miata disk hats and calipers might be a solution, but maybe I'll find
something less odd. It looks like the car will weigh approximately 2200lbs
when I'm done.
I hope I have some time to make it happen this winter. The chicks are
totally gonna dig it! I really appreciate this list being here. I will
certainly need a lot of help getting this thing together.
sean
--
Sean Korb [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.spkorb.org
'65, '68 Mustangs, '68 Cougar, '78 R100/7, '71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
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On 21 Nov 2006 at 22:29, MARK DUTKO wrote:
> I was wondering the viability of
> these large capacity safts.
Can you actually buy them, or are these prototypes awaiting a volume order
by some OEM? I know that Saft lists quite a few different nicad batteries
in their literature, but doesn't stock them; they'll manufacture and supply
them only on a sufficiently large order (which is NOT one EV's worth).
Check out that cycle life, though : 65,000 cycles at 20% DOD.
Pretty amazing on the face of it, but this is at only 20% DOD, not 20% SOC -
a very shallow discharge. They don't rate capacity at the standard 80% DOD;
not even at 50%. To me that suggests that these modules aren't really
intended for cyclic use. And in fact on the first page of the pdf they
suggest that these are high power modules for hybrid use, not for BEV use.
Still, >IF< they can be had at a price that mere mortals can pay, they might
be worth examining.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Thanks.
So surface area of the plates determines current capacity as long as not
limited by amount of electrolyte?
Would having any batteries share electrolyte that is circulated mean
they would stay at the same charge?
What effect does having the plates closer together or further apart have?
Phil Marino wrote:
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Battery questions
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 12:06:53 -0800
I'l bet a battery genius here will know these answers fasters than I
can find them on my own.
In general what is the relationship between distance between plates,
amount of electrolyte, surface area of the plates and other such
physical characteristics and capacity volts amps or charging speed of
a lead acid battery.
More plates means more volts I know.
Actually, it is the number of cells - not plates - that determines the
battery voltage. Each cell in a lead acid battery is nominally 2 volts,
regardless of the number of plates per cell.
All 12 V batteries have 6 cells, but they have differing numbers of
plates. The number of plates per cell determines the maximum current
and capacity ( in amp-hours) of each cell ( and, therefore, of the
battery).
Phil
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I'll try to tivo it.
sounds like you will make the cut.
Seems like they would want some homebrew conversions as well as the Teslas.
Chip Gribben wrote:
From what I was told it will air next Thursday morning, November 30 on
the Fox Morning news.
Stacey, the reporter, said the interview is going to be part of a story
Fox is doing on the Electric Drive Transportation Conference at the DC
Convention Center which will be next week from November 28 to the 30.
Tesla will be at the conference and President Bush will be giving a
speech there. I heard that today but not sure if its official or not.
Other guest speakers include the Presidents of Toyota and Edison
International. Sponsors and Partners include Plug-In Partners, EV World,
Southern California Edison, Honda, Toyota, SMUD, etc. So this is going
to be a pretty big EV Conference.
EVA/DC was asked to help out with the Ride and Drive on Tuesday morning
which is cool. All the major automakers plan to have their hydrogen fuel
cell cars and plug-in hybrids available for test rides. I imagine some
other EVs, like the Tesla, will be rolled out as well and available for
test rides.
http://www.electricdrive.org/conference2006/
I'm really interested in how they are going to incorporate my
run-in-the-mill conversion with these high-tech EVs. They could cut me
completely out.
But Stacey and her cameraman were pretty impressed with the conversion
and how fast I got the car to go (60 mph in a 45 mph zone) and they
couldn't stop talking about how I could squeal the tires when we took
off so I think I made a good impression. The producer emailed today and
said that Stacey mentioned the interview "went exceptionally well."
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC (EVA/DC)
http://www.evadc.org
National Electric Drag Racing Association
http://www.nedra.com
On Nov 21, 2006, at 8:20 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: November 20, 2006 9:50:28 PM EST
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
When will it air and where?
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 1:46 pm, Chip Gribben wrote:
Just had a great interview with Stacey Cohan who is the Fox News
reporter. Stacey used to work at Channel 9.
Apparently, the interview is part of Fox's coverage of the EDTA
Conference coming up next week. I wasn't aware of that until they
mentioned when this would air. Stacey said she would be at the
conference covering that event.
They wanted to get some footage of a homebuilt EV and interview
people who are building their own alt fuel vehicles.
I took them for a ride down Route 198 and squealed the tires taking
off and they thought that was cool. Then we came back and they got
in their car and filmed the EV going down the road.
After we came back from that trip they filmed some of the other EV
projects I'm building in the garage including a custom low-rider
bike built with WaveCrest parts. They filmed it with the rear hub
motor spinning. Stacey thought the hub motor was really neat.
They also took some pictures of the Elek-Trac.
So I think they left pretty impressed with the whole EV thing.
Just as they were leaving Dave came down the street in his JET EV.
Dave was able to make some good points saying that the backyard
hobbyists are responsible for starting and keeping the EV movement
alive which I thought was cool.
Chip
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G'day Jim, and All
At 05:25 PM 21/11/06 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
Hey Chris, Roland, all
First off does anyone have a motor pic on the EV
album??
I've some pics of a very dirty probably fairly old prestolite at:
http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Daihatsu-pics-01?page=4
For those who might want (or need) to try (hey Massey
8^ ) A little trick I learned was to use your breathe
and blow steady on the area while torching it.
<now he tells me>
Option two would be to make a new lead set ( you could
just use the old set switching the connection
point)and just leave it a 2 post. All you're doing is
switching which leads go to which brush holders (I
call it plumbing a motor). Lets say that the terminal
leads go to the 3 and 9 spots they now need to go to
the 6 and 12 holders. On this option you need two
leads mods but with the 4 stud option you're needing
to drill new holes, brass studs, ins, etc. You'd
probably going to need to extend the shunt lead to
connect to the proper holder.
If it's compound (like mine) he may have other issues/options.
Regards
[Technik] James
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At 08:15 PM 21/11/06 -0800, Jim Husted wrote:
As to the "V" vs. "U" undercutter blades it's an old
augument among rebuilders 8^ ) I've always used the
"U" type myself. I guess for one, other than GE (and
only on some models) all the other OEM's use "U" blade
cuts. It leaves a tighter groove resulting in
"usually" quieter commutation.
G'day Jim, and All
Does that mean I shouldn't be undercutting using a hacksaw blade with the
sides ground off to the thickness of the groove? I guess thats square cut
undercutting, no radiussing to the edges of the comm bars?
I usually follow up with a swipe with a triangular file to take the edge
off the bars, since the edges end up a little raised this way. Then back
into the lathe and a quick polish with 0000 (extra fine) steel wool to make
sure there are no edges to catch the brushes gets a nice quiet running motor.
Of course, most motors that I have to do are 90V or 180V permag with no way
to get at the comm once the motor is assembled, so you do what you have to
to make it work...
Regards
[Technik] James
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David Roden kirjoitti 21.11.2006 kello 18.15:
I'm hardly wealthy; but I'd rather spend more and get a bolt-in kit
to, say,
add air-con, even at an appreciably higher cost, than design my own.
A side note: MesDea is developing a heater-air-con system. It will be
in production in 2007.
terveisin, Osmo
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Hi all,
I tried modeling converting a small modern car with a 30kW continuous, 90kW max
rated motor, and seeing it's 0 to 30 and 0 to 60 mph times. I've created a
spreadsheet here:
http://www.thsoftware.com/linked/EV-Drive-acceleration-modeling.xls
This is based on a spreadsheet I found here, this is a great site:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/Welcome.html
Anyways, the estimates I got were:
0-30mph: 1.75 sec
0-60mph: 7.5 sec
I'm not sure if I did everything right. I spent all night reading web sites,
looking up formulas, and carrying units and measurements around. I wish the US
would switch to metric, btw. I just can't use metric though, I need to see
pounds, miles, etc, and can't think in metric. :)
Did I do everything right?
- Tony
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