EV Digest 6157
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery questions
by "R Patterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery questions
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Need help with some acceleration calculations I did
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: EV Austin
by "Obrien, Haskell W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v/Avaialable
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Bluegrass and Alt-cars Wed in Beserkeley
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v/Avaialable
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v/Avaialable
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New Thunder-Sky Lithium Ion Battery 30Ah - 800Ah
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW- Misinformation?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
by Craig Burton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV Austin
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery questions
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geopilot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 3:32 AM
Subject: Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
> I'll try to tivo it.
>
> sounds like you will make the cut.
> Seems like they would want some homebrew conversions as well as the
Teslas.
>
>
> Chip Gribben wrote:
> > From what I was told it will air next Thursday morning, November 30 on
> > the Fox Morning news.
> >
> > Stacey, the reporter, said the interview is going to be part of a story
> > Fox is doing on the Electric Drive Transportation Conference at the DC
> > Convention Center which will be next week from November 28 to the 30.
> >
> > Tesla will be at the conference and President Bush will be giving a
> > speech there. I heard that today but not sure if its official or not.
Hi EVerybody;
Thanks for the heads up, will put FOX on that AM see if it comes
through?Wouldn't it be nice if the Tesla Folks gave The Prez a ride?Could
his escort entourage keep up? Cool! I hope there will be a lotta vid cameras
around?Wanna hear the Preze's speech AFTER a 0 to 60 dash in the Tesla<g>!
Seeya?
Bob
> > Other guest speakers include the Presidents of Toyota and Edison
> > International. Sponsors and Partners include Plug-In Partners, EV World,
> > Southern California Edison, Honda, Toyota, SMUD, etc. So this is going
> > to be a pretty big EV Conference.
> >
> > EVA/DC was asked to help out with the Ride and Drive on Tuesday morning
> > which is cool. All the major automakers plan to have their hydrogen fuel
> > cell cars and plug-in hybrids available for test rides. I imagine some
> > other EVs, like the Tesla, will be rolled out as well and available for
> > test rides.
> >
> > http://www.electricdrive.org/conference2006/
> >
> > I'm really interested in how they are going to incorporate my
> > run-in-the-mill conversion with these high-tech EVs. They could cut me
> > completely out.
> >
> > But Stacey and her cameraman were pretty impressed with the conversion
> > and how fast I got the car to go (60 mph in a 45 mph zone) and they
> > couldn't stop talking about how I could squeal the tires when we took
> > off so I think I made a good impression. The producer emailed today and
> > said that Stacey mentioned the interview "went exceptionally well."
> >
> > Chip Gribben
> > Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC (EVA/DC)
> > http://www.evadc.org
> >
> > National Electric Drag Racing Association
> > http://www.nedra.com
> >
> >
> > On Nov 21, 2006, at 8:20 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> >
> >> From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Date: November 20, 2006 9:50:28 PM EST
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Subject: Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
> >>
> >>
> >> When will it air and where?
> >>
> >> On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 1:46 pm, Chip Gribben wrote:
> >>> Just had a great interview with Stacey Cohan who is the Fox News
> >>> reporter. Stacey used to work at Channel 9.
> >>>
> >>> Apparently, the interview is part of Fox's coverage of the EDTA
> >>> Conference coming up next week. I wasn't aware of that until they
> >>> mentioned when this would air. Stacey said she would be at the
> >>> conference covering that event.
> >>>
> >>> They wanted to get some footage of a homebuilt EV and interview
> >>> people who are building their own alt fuel vehicles.
> >>>
> >>> I took them for a ride down Route 198 and squealed the tires taking
> >>> off and they thought that was cool. Then we came back and they got
> >>> in their car and filmed the EV going down the road.
> >>>
> >>> After we came back from that trip they filmed some of the other EV
> >>> projects I'm building in the garage including a custom low-rider
> >>> bike built with WaveCrest parts. They filmed it with the rear hub
> >>> motor spinning. Stacey thought the hub motor was really neat.
> >>>
> >>> They also took some pictures of the Elek-Trac.
> >>>
> >>> So I think they left pretty impressed with the whole EV thing.
> >>>
> >>> Just as they were leaving Dave came down the street in his JET EV.
> >>> Dave was able to make some good points saying that the backyard
> >>> hobbyists are responsible for starting and keeping the EV movement
> >>> alive which I thought was cool.
> >>>
> >>> Chip
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.11/543 - Release Date: 11/20/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What you are asking for is complex to explain in an email. The distance
between the plates and the concentration of the electrolyte affect what is
known as the concentration gradient of the electrolytes perspective
cation/anion and their ability to react with the perspective anode/cathode.
I'm certain there must be some websites on battery theory you can reference,
or a good analytical chemist can refer you to some text material (for that
matter try a "research" search engine).
With respect to circulating the electrolyte, yes it would provide for a more
even charge/discharge dependant upon the degree of Lamar flow. If a filter
is Incorporated into the line of flow you will even increase the longevity
of the battery; but here again you are affecting the dynamics of the
concentration gradient. Finding a pump housing, impeller, shaft combination
that is resistant to the electrolyte will be the challenge.
Best of wishes with this endeavour,
oprogue.
On 11/21/06, GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'l bet a battery genius here will know these answers fasters than I can
find them on my own.
In general what is the relationship between distance between plates,
amount of electrolyte, surface area of the plates and other such
physical characteristics and capacity volts amps or charging speed of a
lead acid battery.
More plates means more volts I know.
But what about the greater detail of therest?
And if 20 lead acid batteries all used the same circulated electrolyte
pumped between them wouldn't that ensure they charged and discharged
evenly?
Thanks.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--
Victory belongs to the most persevering.
--Napoleon Bonaparte--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Geopilot<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: Battery questions
Thanks.
So surface area of the plates determines current capacity as long as not
limited by amount of electrolyte?
Would having any batteries share electrolyte that is circulated mean
they would stay at the same charge?
What effect does having the plates closer together or further apart have?
Size of battery:
I had a one cell battery that was about 1 cubic foot in size with removable
tops. I can adjust the plates any any spacing I want. The greater the space,
the less square area you have, lower the ampere-hour, because I had less
plates. Now if I place them about 1/16 inch apart, I have a higher ampere
because there is now more plate area.
This cell did not have the standard separators that were in a regular
battery. The plates had four round holes where a nylon tube went through and
than a long threaded rod went through. A spacer is slide over the nylon tubes
to keep the plates a part.
You cannot put in new or a specific gravity value of a electrolyte in a cell
that may have a lower or higher specific gravity that was in the cell.
You can only install the same electrolyte sg with the same value of
electrolyte you take out.
If one cell is discharge to 1.200 sg, this means that the negative and
positive plates has change its chemistry to become more sulfated or less oxide,
adding a 1.275 sg electrolyte, that 1.200 sg cell has to be charge to change
the chemistry of the grids, so you must exchange the sulfate from the negative
plate to the electrolyte, which exchanges the O2 from the electrolyte to the
positive plate.
You would have to charge that 1.200 sg cell with 1.275 sg electrolyte another
0.075 sg higher, or you make the electrolyte sg value come up to 1.350 sq.
Now you have one cell at 1.350 sg while the others are at 1.275 sg which is
very unbalance.
Overcharging this cell to get the grids in balance, the electrolyte is
unbalance will erode the grids a lot faster and increase the bubble factor,
heat and decrease the life.
Also, some battery chargers at a fix maximum voltage, may not be able to
charge that high.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tony,
For your calculations what vehicle weight did you use?
I now use software called CarTest2000 from http://www.cartestsoftware.com/
as it is much more accurate. You can plug in your torque curves and gear
ratios to get a realistic result. You can also run several cars against
each other on virtual tracks. Costs a whole $35 but you can get started
with a downloadable demo version.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tony Hwang
Sent: November 22, 2006 4:04 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Need help with some acceleration calculations I did
Hi all,
I tried modeling converting a small modern car with a 30kW continuous, 90kW
max rated motor, and seeing it's 0 to 30 and 0 to 60 mph times. I've created
a spreadsheet here:
http://www.thsoftware.com/linked/EV-Drive-acceleration-modeling.xls
This is based on a spreadsheet I found here, this is a great site:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/Welcome.html
Anyways, the estimates I got were:
0-30mph: 1.75 sec
0-60mph: 7.5 sec
I'm not sure if I did everything right. I spent all night reading web sites,
looking up formulas, and carrying units and measurements around. I wish the
US would switch to metric, btw. I just can't use metric though, I need to
see pounds, miles, etc, and can't think in metric. :)
Did I do everything right?
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I love the body - it'll have style! What was the original curb weight?
If it doesn't have independent rear suspension, you might have an easier
time just swapping out the rear axle for something with disc brakes.
That said, if you can get your hands on a donor axle, you could modify
the parts to fit the original hardware.... maybe.
I put a jeep cj dana 44 under a 79 spitfire once... and converted it to
use explorer disc brakes. (The ford dealer gave me the rear end free -
it was a warranty take off due to a bad pinion gear)
Will
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Sean Korb
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 10:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV Austin
Hello, I thought I'd introduce myself.
I've come into some parts (well, I waited out the owners long enough for
them to get tired of them) and I'm setting off to make my first electric
vehicle. I have a '59 Austin A35 http://spkorb.org/austin.html, and I
just
pulled a GE 23HP series wound motor, Curtis controller and transmission
from
an EV S-10. The S-10 is destined to be a fossil processing drag racer,
while I got the naughty bits:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/sets/72157594379546295/
The batteries suffered a melted post, and the charger was found one
morning
in a puddle of water an inch deep. The owner had a kid, and after 10
years
of looking at the truck and getting "tired" he decided to sell it. The
Austin was similarly moldy, but only in the special way a British car
can
be. Again, a kid precipitated my good luck. Yay me!
I've ordered some metal to fix the rust on the Austin, but that's the
easy
part. It looks like I can remove the gas tank and drop the trunk floor
to
get 6 12V batteries back there, and that leaves 4 or 5 (if I want a
separate
battery for the accessories) for the front. It's a small car, but I
think
they'll fit. I've got some time to consider battery choices. The
previous
owner got some Trojans from a dealer nearby, and they're inexpensive
(like
the rest of the project). I also have a couple of 15V old (early '80s)
computer disk drive power supplies. Ceramic bridge and regulated power
to
20 amps.
The chassis needs work too. I need to fab up a shock bracket to take
coilovers on the rear suspension. The leaf springs and lever shocks
won't
support a rack of batteries without help. I can get some performance MG
Midget springs for the front. The brakes are going to be more creative.
The stock setup is a single circuit hydraulic for the front and back.
It
also has little drum brakes all around. The rear system shares a single
slave cylinder that pushes rods activating the rear shoes. Sounds like
instant death, even without the extra weight. I'm hoping some 1/4"
plate,
Miata disk hats and calipers might be a solution, but maybe I'll find
something less odd. It looks like the car will weigh approximately
2200lbs
when I'm done.
I hope I have some time to make it happen this winter. The chicks are
totally gonna dig it! I really appreciate this list being here. I will
certainly need a lot of help getting this thing together.
sean
--
Sean Korb [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.spkorb.org
'65, '68 Mustangs, '68 Cougar, '78 R100/7, '71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know they are expensive but if someone is interested in knowing
more I can get a quote. I can get these locally as well as the dry
sell packs with BMS,
Mark
On Nov 21, 2006, at 11:50 PM, David Roden wrote:
On 21 Nov 2006 at 22:29, MARK DUTKO wrote:
I was wondering the viability of
these large capacity safts.
Can you actually buy them, or are these prototypes awaiting a
volume order
by some OEM? I know that Saft lists quite a few different nicad
batteries
in their literature, but doesn't stock them; they'll manufacture
and supply
them only on a sufficiently large order (which is NOT one EV's worth).
Check out that cycle life, though : 65,000 cycles at 20% DOD.
Pretty amazing on the face of it, but this is at only 20% DOD, not
20% SOC -
a very shallow discharge. They don't rate capacity at the standard
80% DOD;
not even at 50%. To me that suggests that these modules aren't really
intended for cyclic use. And in fact on the first page of the pdf
they
suggest that these are high power modules for hybrid use, not for
BEV use.
Still, >IF< they can be had at a price that mere mortals can pay,
they might
be worth examining.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm just the messenger. Read below for info. Lawrence Rhodes......
1. Bluegrass and Alt-cars Wed.
Posted by: "Sherry Boschert" [EMAIL PROTECTED] shaalub
Date: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:28 pm ((PST))
Just a reminder that we'll have an alternative-car
parade, clean energy social, and benefit bluegrass
concert in Berkeley tomorrow.
SURPRISE MUSICAL GUESTS: Hot Buttered Rum
The concert benefits the Sierra Club Bay Chapter
Energy Committee, and the rest is free. Hope to see
some of you there,
Sherry
Bluegrass Bash & Benefit for Clean Energy
WHEN: Wed. Nov. 22nd
WHERE: Ashkenaz - 1317 San Pablo Ave in Berkeley
A celebration and benefit, in three parts.
4pm - Alt-Vehicle/Bicycle Caravan - FREE
Bring your bike, hybrid or alt-fueled vehicle to
showcase (for the media!) low-carbon transportation
options, on the eve of the busiest travel day of the
year. Assembling 3pm at 4th and Channing, leave 4pm
sharp, rain or shine. For specific details and map, go
to http://www.threemilegrade.com
5-7pm Clean Energy Rally & Social - FREE
Come network, celebrate and learn about low-carbon
alternatives at this post- Caravan social. With great
speakers, special guests and some FREE bluegrass!
Ashkenaz 1317 San Pablo Ave, Berkeley
8:30pm til late: Sweet, high-energy bluegrass music -
$15-$25
Get yer thanksgiving weekend started right with this
great lineup of top local and national musical acts.
Net proceeds benefit the Sierra Club's Bay chapter
energy committee. $15-$25 sliding scale. Tix call
1-866-468-3399 or http://www.ticketweb.com
Brought to you by Three Mile Grade ,the Berkeley
Biofuels Oasis, Sun Light & Power, Native Energy, Clif
Bar, Flexcar, the Electric Auto Association, SF
Biofuels Cooperative, East Bay Bicycle Coalition,
media help from KPFA, KALW and KPIG, the Bay Area peak
oil community at sfbayoil.org, Ashkenaz Music and
Dance Community Center and the Sierra Club.
Please forward to friends and colleagues.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> And if 20 lead acid batteries all used the same circulated electrolyte
> pumped between them wouldn't that ensure they charged and discharged
> evenly?
The electrolyte is a conductor (it has to be for the batteries to work).
If you used a single pump to circulate the electrolyte in all of the cells
you would in fact be shorting them all together (with, no doubt,
spectacular results).
I suppose you could do it, if you could figure some way to pump the
electrolyte out of the cells, but provide some kind of physical isolation
between the pumped electrolyte and the electrolyte in the cells.
Then when returning it to the cells you'd need to separate and isolate it
again.
It sounds extreemly complicated, and expensive, and would most likely
result in minimal gains.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These batteries are normally used for emergency standby, until the emergency
generators come on. They may be only use for several seconds during the
transfer from commercial power to generator power. They are on maintainers the
rest of the time that they are not use.
In some communications applications, they are use as a float between the
commercial power and comm load.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: MARK DUTKO<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v/Avaialable
I know they are expensive but if someone is interested in knowing
more I can get a quote. I can get these locally as well as the dry
sell packs with BMS,
Mark
On Nov 21, 2006, at 11:50 PM, David Roden wrote:
> On 21 Nov 2006 at 22:29, MARK DUTKO wrote:
>
>> I was wondering the viability of
>> these large capacity safts.
>
> Can you actually buy them, or are these prototypes awaiting a
> volume order
> by some OEM? I know that Saft lists quite a few different nicad
> batteries
> in their literature, but doesn't stock them; they'll manufacture
> and supply
> them only on a sufficiently large order (which is NOT one EV's worth).
>
> Check out that cycle life, though : 65,000 cycles at 20% DOD.
>
> Pretty amazing on the face of it, but this is at only 20% DOD, not
> 20% SOC -
> a very shallow discharge. They don't rate capacity at the standard
> 80% DOD;
> not even at 50%. To me that suggests that these modules aren't really
> intended for cyclic use. And in fact on the first page of the pdf
> they
> suggest that these are high power modules for hybrid use, not for
> BEV use.
>
> Still, >IF< they can be had at a price that mere mortals can pay,
> they might
> be worth examining.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how:
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> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/> .
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>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Under applications on the left it says Hybrid vehicles, busses,
trucks, etc..
On Nov 22, 2006, at 9:25 AM, Roland Wiench wrote:
These batteries are normally used for emergency standby, until the
emergency generators come on. They may be only use for several
seconds during the transfer from commercial power to generator
power. They are on maintainers the rest of the time that they are
not use.
In some communications applications, they are use as a float
between the commercial power and comm load.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: MARK DUTKO<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 9:13 AM
Subject: Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v/Avaialable
I know they are expensive but if someone is interested in knowing
more I can get a quote. I can get these locally as well as the dry
sell packs with BMS,
Mark
On Nov 21, 2006, at 11:50 PM, David Roden wrote:
On 21 Nov 2006 at 22:29, MARK DUTKO wrote:
I was wondering the viability of
these large capacity safts.
Can you actually buy them, or are these prototypes awaiting a
volume order
by some OEM? I know that Saft lists quite a few different nicad
batteries
in their literature, but doesn't stock them; they'll manufacture
and supply
them only on a sufficiently large order (which is NOT one EV's
worth).
Check out that cycle life, though : 65,000 cycles at 20% DOD.
Pretty amazing on the face of it, but this is at only 20% DOD, not
20% SOC -
a very shallow discharge. They don't rate capacity at the standard
80% DOD;
not even at 50%. To me that suggests that these modules aren't
really
intended for cyclic use. And in fact on the first page of the pdf
they
suggest that these are high power modules for hybrid use, not for
BEV use.
Still, >IF< they can be had at a price that mere mortals can pay,
they might
be worth examining.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
<http://www.evdl.org/help/>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/<http://www.evdl.org/help/> .
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Geopilot
So surface area of the plates determines current capacity as long as
not limited by amount of electrolyte?
Yes; surface area of the plates determines the *peak* current you can get.
Would having any batteries share electrolyte that is circulated mean
they would stay at the same charge?
The acid in the electrolyte is one of the two active materials that
react (lead being the other). Circulating the electrolyte helps in some
respects; it equalizes temperature, and mixes it to make sure there are
no "dead spots" that have become plain water.
But, since you can't mix the lead between the plates, mixing the
electrolyte won't help keep them at the same state of charge. The
reaction stops when any cell runs out of lead *or* acid. As a rule,
pretty much all lead-acid batteries have an excess of acid, so you run
out of lead first.
The other problem with mixing electrolyte between cells is that each
cell is 2 volts different than its neighbors. You can't let the
electrolyte touch between cells, or you get a short circuit!
What effect does having the plates closer together or further apart
have?
It acts as a resistance in series with each cell. Closer plates have
less resistance between them, so you get less voltage sag for a given
current. But, the close spacing also increases the chances for a short
circuit (shortens life).
Wide spacings adds resistance, so you get more voltage sag. But the
battery lasts longer, because it can tolerate more plate warping and
more debris falling off the plates before it shorts it out.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
What was the nature of their unhappiness? Did the batteries not perform
according to the specs, or something else?
A bunch of us joined forces and bought a batch of Thunder Sky lithiums a
couple years ago. They apparently shipped us old stock, defectives, or
otherwise inferior cells, as most of them did not deliver anywhere near
rated performance, and there were large variations between cells.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
There is no more dedicated market than hobbyists. Apple Computers is
still alive because it never forgot how it started: by catering to the
'hobbyists'. And they take care to keep that 'spirit' alive.
There is a deep truth in what you say. Apple survived when a lot of
other pioneering microcomputer companies failed because they did have
that connection with hobbyists and enthusiasts. It wasn't just about
money; there was a spirit; a community; an esprit de corp that saw them
through the hard times. Apple had customers that stuck with them even
when it would have been cheaper and easier to give up and buy something
else.
Some small car companies have survived the same way. But not many! Most
go broke, or get gobbled up and homogenized by some bigger car company.
One challenge is the size of the problem. Computers are $1000; cars are
$10,000. People can pay double for a unique computer, but not for a
unique car. They might want to; but they can't afford to!
A small company *has* to charge more for its product, because it doesn't
have a large customer base or the economies of scale. An innovative
company *has* to charge more, because it spends more on product
development (they can't just copy what's gone before).
It's easier for EV companies to build just some small part of the car,
like a controller or charger. That way, customers can say for example,
"So what if my Zilla controller is twice the cost of Curtis? It works
better, and I'm supporting a small EV company."
But they can't afford to go "first class" for the entire car. If they
did, it would be a $50,000 vehicle. So they compromise. You'll see a
cheap old $10,000 EV conversion with a Zilla controller.
So, the cheapest way to build an EV is to convert some worn-out
decade-old ICE, with an ADC motor, Lester charger, Curtis controller,
and a pack of cheap floodeds. But, none of these companies could care
less about EVs. My hope is that the builder does have an eye toward the
future, and can dream a little, and will buy at least one higher-tech
advanced EV product from someone who really cares about EVs.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would anyone be able to post the vid on YouTube?
On Nov 22, 2006, at 5:45 AM, Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geopilot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 3:32 AM
Subject: Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
I'll try to tivo it.
sounds like you will make the cut.
Seems like they would want some homebrew conversions as well as the
Teslas.
Chip Gribben wrote:
From what I was told it will air next Thursday morning, November
30 on
the Fox Morning news.
Stacey, the reporter, said the interview is going to be part of a
story
Fox is doing on the Electric Drive Transportation Conference at
the DC
Convention Center which will be next week from November 28 to the
30.
Tesla will be at the conference and President Bush will be giving a
speech there. I heard that today but not sure if its official or
not.
Hi EVerybody;
Thanks for the heads up, will put FOX on that AM see if it comes
through?Wouldn't it be nice if the Tesla Folks gave The Prez a ride?
Could
his escort entourage keep up? Cool! I hope there will be a lotta
vid cameras
around?Wanna hear the Preze's speech AFTER a 0 to 60 dash in the
Tesla<g>!
Seeya?
Bob
Other guest speakers include the Presidents of Toyota and Edison
International. Sponsors and Partners include Plug-In Partners, EV
World,
Southern California Edison, Honda, Toyota, SMUD, etc. So this is
going
to be a pretty big EV Conference.
EVA/DC was asked to help out with the Ride and Drive on Tuesday
morning
which is cool. All the major automakers plan to have their
hydrogen fuel
cell cars and plug-in hybrids available for test rides. I imagine
some
other EVs, like the Tesla, will be rolled out as well and
available for
test rides.
http://www.electricdrive.org/conference2006/
I'm really interested in how they are going to incorporate my
run-in-the-mill conversion with these high-tech EVs. They could
cut me
completely out.
But Stacey and her cameraman were pretty impressed with the
conversion
and how fast I got the car to go (60 mph in a 45 mph zone) and they
couldn't stop talking about how I could squeal the tires when we
took
off so I think I made a good impression. The producer emailed
today and
said that Stacey mentioned the interview "went exceptionally well."
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC (EVA/DC)
http://www.evadc.org
National Electric Drag Racing Association
http://www.nedra.com
On Nov 21, 2006, at 8:20 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: November 20, 2006 9:50:28 PM EST
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
When will it air and where?
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 1:46 pm, Chip Gribben wrote:
Just had a great interview with Stacey Cohan who is the Fox News
reporter. Stacey used to work at Channel 9.
Apparently, the interview is part of Fox's coverage of the EDTA
Conference coming up next week. I wasn't aware of that until they
mentioned when this would air. Stacey said she would be at the
conference covering that event.
They wanted to get some footage of a homebuilt EV and interview
people who are building their own alt fuel vehicles.
I took them for a ride down Route 198 and squealed the tires
taking
off and they thought that was cool. Then we came back and they got
in their car and filmed the EV going down the road.
After we came back from that trip they filmed some of the other EV
projects I'm building in the garage including a custom low-rider
bike built with WaveCrest parts. They filmed it with the rear hub
motor spinning. Stacey thought the hub motor was really neat.
They also took some pictures of the Elek-Trac.
So I think they left pretty impressed with the whole EV thing.
Just as they were leaving Dave came down the street in his JET EV.
Dave was able to make some good points saying that the backyard
hobbyists are responsible for starting and keeping the EV movement
alive which I thought was cool.
Chip
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.11/543 - Release Date:
11/20/06
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Sean,
I'm impressed that you have an A35! It looks like it came your way
round about 1987? At least, that's when it was last on the road in
the UK!
I'm interested to see how this goes as I'm converting an Morris Minor
(Luckily I'm in the UK so I have access to lots of parts! Let me know
if I can help source stuff!)
Nikki.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
paralleling is a major task which conduct fast to problems, worst with
nickel based battery as they need extensive
BMS but even with perfect BMS you still have a monstruous failure point:
cells number !
If you don't have very high quality cells (read: very high production
quality and QC)
failure probability laws will kill the project.
May advise you not starting with chinese cells or you will loose near all
benefice of this idea even with brillant BMS !
no BMS can transform a poor quality cell ina winner and it will be worst
with few hundred of them...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW
> > http://www.powerstream.com/Ni-Prism.htm
> >
> > 12 - 100AH NiMH rectangular stackable cells (like the SAFT NiCD ones). A
> > 120V 25AH (no peukerts) string would be $4410, and weigh 154 lbs with a
> > 250A max current. A 120V 50AH string would be $8700 and weigh 242(!)
> > lbs, with a 300A max current. The max would be a 120V 100AH string at
> > $16300 and weigh 418lbs with a 400A max current. These would be with a
> > simple series configuration.
>
> There's also the option of using 4 strings of 25Ah 120V giving you a
> maximum current of a 1000 amps, or for simpolicity two string of 50Ah
> for 600Amps.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not legally.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:24 am, Craig Burton wrote:
Would anyone be able to post the vid on YouTube?
On Nov 22, 2006, at 5:45 AM, Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geopilot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 3:32 AM
Subject: Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
I'll try to tivo it.
sounds like you will make the cut.
Seems like they would want some homebrew conversions as well as the
Teslas.
Chip Gribben wrote:
From what I was told it will air next Thursday morning, November
30 on
the Fox Morning news.
Stacey, the reporter, said the interview is going to be part of a
story
Fox is doing on the Electric Drive Transportation Conference at the DC
Convention Center which will be next week from November 28 to the 30.
Tesla will be at the conference and President Bush will be giving a
speech there. I heard that today but not sure if its official or not.
Hi EVerybody;
Thanks for the heads up, will put FOX on that AM see if it comes
through?Wouldn't it be nice if the Tesla Folks gave The Prez a ride?
Could
his escort entourage keep up? Cool! I hope there will be a lotta vid
cameras
around?Wanna hear the Preze's speech AFTER a 0 to 60 dash in the
Tesla<g>!
Seeya?
Bob
Other guest speakers include the Presidents of Toyota and Edison
International. Sponsors and Partners include Plug-In Partners, EV
World,
Southern California Edison, Honda, Toyota, SMUD, etc. So this is going
to be a pretty big EV Conference.
EVA/DC was asked to help out with the Ride and Drive on Tuesday
morning
which is cool. All the major automakers plan to have their hydrogen
fuel
cell cars and plug-in hybrids available for test rides. I imagine some
other EVs, like the Tesla, will be rolled out as well and available
for
test rides.
http://www.electricdrive.org/conference2006/
I'm really interested in how they are going to incorporate my
run-in-the-mill conversion with these high-tech EVs. They could cut me
completely out.
But Stacey and her cameraman were pretty impressed with the conversion
and how fast I got the car to go (60 mph in a 45 mph zone) and they
couldn't stop talking about how I could squeal the tires when we took
off so I think I made a good impression. The producer emailed today
and
said that Stacey mentioned the interview "went exceptionally well."
Chip Gribben
Electric Vehicle Association of Washington DC (EVA/DC)
http://www.evadc.org
National Electric Drag Racing Association
http://www.nedra.com
On Nov 21, 2006, at 8:20 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: November 20, 2006 9:50:28 PM EST
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Fox Interview part of EDTA Conference
When will it air and where?
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 1:46 pm, Chip Gribben wrote:
Just had a great interview with Stacey Cohan who is the Fox News
reporter. Stacey used to work at Channel 9.
Apparently, the interview is part of Fox's coverage of the EDTA
Conference coming up next week. I wasn't aware of that until they
mentioned when this would air. Stacey said she would be at the
conference covering that event.
They wanted to get some footage of a homebuilt EV and interview
people who are building their own alt fuel vehicles.
I took them for a ride down Route 198 and squealed the tires taking
off and they thought that was cool. Then we came back and they got
in their car and filmed the EV going down the road.
After we came back from that trip they filmed some of the other EV
projects I'm building in the garage including a custom low-rider
bike built with WaveCrest parts. They filmed it with the rear hub
motor spinning. Stacey thought the hub motor was really neat.
They also took some pictures of the Elek-Trac.
So I think they left pretty impressed with the whole EV thing.
Just as they were leaving Dave came down the street in his JET EV.
Dave was able to make some good points saying that the backyard
hobbyists are responsible for starting and keeping the EV movement
alive which I thought was cool.
Chip
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.11/543 - Release Date:
11/20/06
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The other problem with mixing electrolyte between cells is that each
cell is 2 volts different than its neighbors. You can't let the
electrolyte touch between cells, or you get a short circuit!
I thought in each battery all cells shared the same electrolyte but that
isn't true? They are keep separate?
Also about plate spacing.
Will a battery charge more quickly if the plates are closer together?
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 10:24 am, Lee Hart wrote:
From: Geopilot
So surface area of the plates determines current capacity as long as
not limited by amount of electrolyte?
Yes; surface area of the plates determines the *peak* current you can
get.
Would having any batteries share electrolyte that is circulated mean
they would stay at the same charge?
The acid in the electrolyte is one of the two active materials that
react (lead being the other). Circulating the electrolyte helps in some
respects; it equalizes temperature, and mixes it to make sure there are
no "dead spots" that have become plain water.
But, since you can't mix the lead between the plates, mixing the
electrolyte won't help keep them at the same state of charge. The
reaction stops when any cell runs out of lead *or* acid. As a rule,
pretty much all lead-acid batteries have an excess of acid, so you run
out of lead first.
The other problem with mixing electrolyte between cells is that each
cell is 2 volts different than its neighbors. You can't let the
electrolyte touch between cells, or you get a short circuit!
What effect does having the plates closer together or further apart
have?
It acts as a resistance in series with each cell. Closer plates have
less resistance between them, so you get less voltage sag for a given
current. But, the close spacing also increases the chances for a short
circuit (shortens life).
Wide spacings adds resistance, so you get more voltage sag. But the
battery lasts longer, because it can tolerate more plate warping and
more debris falling off the plates before it shorts it out.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
