EV Digest 6159
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Alternator hacks, WAS: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW- Misinformation?
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Newbie question about batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Newbie question about batteries
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Alternator hacks, WAS: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW- Misinformation?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Newbie question about batteries
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) motor pilot bearing worn
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: motor pilot bearing worn
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: EV Austin
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Newbie question about batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: motor pilot bearing worn
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Some IMPORTANT clarification about Prestolites
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: [EV] David problem with email
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW- Misinformation?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [EV] Re: [EV] David problem with email
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: David problem with email
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV Austin
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: motor pilot bearing worn
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think what fixitSan was proposing was not energising the armature in order to
allow the alternator to freewheel. Can this be done? I would envision a relay
which could be engaged in "regen mode" so the alternator would be energised and
start generating.
In theory, theory and practice are equivalent. In practice...
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 3:32:46 PM
Subject: Re: Alternator hacks, WAS: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW- Misinformation?
Michaela wrote........
> Would it really be a problem to built a regen unit that slides on
> to the auxiliary shaft of an Advanced DC motor? Or a (small)
> motor/compressor combination to power an a/c? Or a DC-DC unit that
> imitates the function of an ICE alternator and not only provides
> 30 A of 12 V but also charges the battery?
No; none of these are particularly difficult. All have been used in
company's and individual's EVs.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> take some of this convertor output at 12volts and use it to energise
> the armature of an alternator.
Alternators are normally self-exciting. There is enough residual
magnetism in them to start generating automatically just by spinning it.
What little power it produces powers the field and regulator, which
quickly stabilises at the desired voltage.
> Some car alternators can produce up to 110 volts once you remove the
> regulator. Of course, current drops off too...
Actually, all of them generate a voltage proportional to rpm times field
current. To get 110vdc, you just have to spin it at full speed and full
field current simultaneously. The built-in regulator won't do this.
No, the current it can generate does not fall when you raise the
voltage. If it can generate 60 amps at 12v, it can generate 60 amps at 110v.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
> Old books on electric vehicles from the 1910's show how easy it is.
I'll echo Dave here and suggest that interesting as those old books may
be, the proof will be in you personally building your own battery and
reporting back to the list on what it cost, how long it took, and how
its performance compares to that of a *modern* lead acid battery bought
off the shelf. Let's make it easier on you: don't build a battery, just
build a single cell.
The plates are not just sheets of lead suspended in electrolyte; the
grids are doped with additives such as antimony to improve their life,
and they are coated with pastes (the actual active material; the lead
plate doesn't participate in the cell reaction): does your book describe
how to mix up your own paste, and even if it does, do you believe that
the paste formulation described in a turn-of-the-century book will
compare in perfomance with what manufacturers are using today? Does
your book describe how to perform the "forming charge" required by a new
battery before it is placed into service?
I think it is fairly safe to say that while it is possible for a home
builder to construct their own flooded lead acid cell, it will be
difficult for them to build the number of cells required for an EV with
anything approaching the reliability, consistency, and performance
(especially if using a turn-of-the-century recipe) of the humble flooded
GC batteries that are readily available.
There are enough aspects of building an EV that require home fabrication
without looking for others ;^)... If one really finds the cost of new
flooded GC batteries unpalatable, I think it would make more sense to
seek out a source of good used batteries (e.g. takeouts from leased
fleet golf carts) than to undertake construction of ones' own batteries.
We could probably make our own wheels, tires, etc. too, but at some
point you have to recognise that it is more practical to use what is
already commecially available.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile inquired about how early EV controllers worked:
> I am just into the chapter on controlling the motor speed. Am very
> interested in how they did it before semiconductors.
Virtually all EV manufacturers used manual rotary mechanical drum
contactors.
These are like large, high power sliprings with 3/8"-1/2" wide copper or
brass contact segments on the rotating member and spring-loaded "fingers"
riding on the stator which bring the power in and out of the rotating
contactor.
My 1921 Milburn Light Electric's controller uses 12 fingers and tracks of
contact segments on a single controller shaft.
Here's the developed diagram of what the rotary contacts on the Milburn's
controller look like: http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/ev/milburn27pg11.jpg
Here's a wiring diagram:
http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/ev/milburn27wiring.jpg
, but suffice it to say that with enough parallel circuits, you can do a lot
of circuit reconfigurin'...
In this case, the controller selects between 8 detent positions:
* 4 forward speeds
* neutral
* plug brake
* reverse, slow
* reverse, faster
The 2 slow forward and the reverse speeds use the 80-84v pack split in half
and paralleled. The 2 highest speeds use the full 80-84v pack.
The driver, manually moving the control linkage, moves the controller
armature which configures the electric circuit to switch the battery
half-packs from parallel, to series and switches series resistors in and
out.
While this sounds pretty easy, to reduce sparking and the chance of high
currents or shorts during pack reconfiguration, a close view of the
development diagram reveals there are far more states than the 8 speed
states that this controller passes thru. From a distance it looks like
certain contacts are made at the same angle (time) as others. For the most
part, that is the case, but in transitioning from half- to full-pack there
are 5 intermediate transient states in switching the pack and 2 transient
states in switching from 3rd to 4th.
So while it may seem fairly trivial to make a mechanical rotary contactor
controller, experience led the early EV developers to realize the importance
of sequentially enabling and resistive elements & battery connections to
minimize current & voltage transients while maintaining an expected torque &
speed change while shifting. They did this by specifying subtle angular
offsets in the location of switching contacts between speed state angular
positions in the rotary mechanical controller. You can see this if you look
closely at the development diagram referenced and look at the inset
electrical state config diags on the wiring diagram.
Hope this helps.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
My Milburn: http://www.milburn.us/myles_twete1921.htm
Milburn website: www.milburn.us
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I think what fixitSan was proposing was not energising the
> armature in order to allow the alternator to freewheel. Can this
> be done?
Effectively, yes.
Get an alternator which requires external field excitation unlike what Lee
described.
In such case, there are 3 states:
1) Spin w/o field excitation: no torque load---i.e. freewheel
2) Excite field w/o spinning fast enough to charge: alternator consumes
power
3) Excite field while spinning above the minimum rate: alternator
charges
Or maybe I don't understand the question...always possible.
-MT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Man you'd think you guys had never made a lemon acid battery.
Yes forming charge is discussed but not called that.
And the point isn't can you make it work as well as a modern battery.
The point for the home builder is can you get 80% of modern for 10% of
cost.
Right?
It is well illustrated and very technical for electrical, steam and
gasoline cars. It is a full survey of the technology of the day.
I'll try to post some excerpts over the next couple of weeks.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 3:50 pm, Roger Stockton wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
Old books on electric vehicles from the 1910's show how easy it is.
I'll echo Dave here and suggest that interesting as those old books may
be, the proof will be in you personally building your own battery and
reporting back to the list on what it cost, how long it took, and how
its performance compares to that of a *modern* lead acid battery bought
off the shelf. Let's make it easier on you: don't build a battery,
just
build a single cell.
The plates are not just sheets of lead suspended in electrolyte; the
grids are doped with additives such as antimony to improve their life,
and they are coated with pastes (the actual active material; the lead
plate doesn't participate in the cell reaction): does your book
describe
how to mix up your own paste, and even if it does, do you believe that
the paste formulation described in a turn-of-the-century book will
compare in perfomance with what manufacturers are using today? Does
your book describe how to perform the "forming charge" required by a
new
battery before it is placed into service?
I think it is fairly safe to say that while it is possible for a home
builder to construct their own flooded lead acid cell, it will be
difficult for them to build the number of cells required for an EV with
anything approaching the reliability, consistency, and performance
(especially if using a turn-of-the-century recipe) of the humble
flooded
GC batteries that are readily available.
There are enough aspects of building an EV that require home
fabrication
without looking for others ;^)... If one really finds the cost of new
flooded GC batteries unpalatable, I think it would make more sense to
seek out a source of good used batteries (e.g. takeouts from leased
fleet golf carts) than to undertake construction of ones' own
batteries.
We could probably make our own wheels, tires, etc. too, but at some
point you have to recognise that it is more practical to use what is
already commecially available.
Cheers,
Roger.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a copy of a couple circa 1912 articles in the AUTOMOBILE magazine's
Electric Vehicle issue which describe Edison's NiFe cells. One of the
articles gets into the nitty gritty of how they are configured & made,
including pics showing the huge machinery used to make the cells. I recall
one of the nickel plated electrodes literally was something like 8
rectangular cages in which iron oxide (rust) chunks were enclosed. The
other electrode was made up of something like 24 nickel-plated cylindrical
cages in which a huge number of small alternating material discs were
stacked----that part sounded real hard to do...
-MT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 2:12 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Newbie question about batteries
>
>
> GWMobile wrote:
>
> > Old books on electric vehicles from the 1910's show how easy it is.
>
> I'll echo Dave here and suggest that interesting as those old books may
> be, the proof will be in you personally building your own battery and
> reporting back to the list on what it cost, how long it took, and how
> its performance compares to that of a *modern* lead acid battery bought
> off the shelf. Let's make it easier on you: don't build a battery, just
> build a single cell.
>
> The plates are not just sheets of lead suspended in electrolyte; the
> grids are doped with additives such as antimony to improve their life,
> and they are coated with pastes (the actual active material; the lead
> plate doesn't participate in the cell reaction): does your book describe
> how to mix up your own paste, and even if it does, do you believe that
> the paste formulation described in a turn-of-the-century book will
> compare in perfomance with what manufacturers are using today? Does
> your book describe how to perform the "forming charge" required by a new
> battery before it is placed into service?
>
> I think it is fairly safe to say that while it is possible for a home
> builder to construct their own flooded lead acid cell, it will be
> difficult for them to build the number of cells required for an EV with
> anything approaching the reliability, consistency, and performance
> (especially if using a turn-of-the-century recipe) of the humble flooded
> GC batteries that are readily available.
>
> There are enough aspects of building an EV that require home fabrication
> without looking for others ;^)... If one really finds the cost of new
> flooded GC batteries unpalatable, I think it would make more sense to
> seek out a source of good used batteries (e.g. takeouts from leased
> fleet golf carts) than to undertake construction of ones' own batteries.
>
> We could probably make our own wheels, tires, etc. too, but at some
> point you have to recognise that it is more practical to use what is
> already commecially available.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I picked up my motor today.
for $460 got commutator cut and polished, enamel spray, pilot bearing
replaced, brushes and springs broken in and installed
So, I hope to remember how it all went back together.
My question,
WHY would the pilot bearing wear down? The motor repair guy didn't know
how the EV motor functions, so perhaps one of you know what I did?
Chevy S10 into manual transmission.
I don't idle the motor.
the worst I can think I do to it are 2 things.
1. start in 2nd gear; and use full acceleration frequently
2. when I coast to a stop, I will down shift from 3rd to 2nd, and as I let
up the clutch, the motor rev's to a stop
thank you, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd say normal wear and tear, or that there is a
slight angle or offset between the adapter plate and
motor shaft. Even a few thousandths I've been told
can make a difference. That's all I can think of...
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I picked up my motor today.
> for $460 got commutator cut and polished, enamel
> spray, pilot bearing
> replaced, brushes and springs broken in and
> installed
>
> So, I hope to remember how it all went back
> together.
>
> My question,
>
> WHY would the pilot bearing wear down? The motor
> repair guy didn't know
> how the EV motor functions, so perhaps one of you
> know what I did?
> Chevy S10 into manual transmission.
> I don't idle the motor.
> the worst I can think I do to it are 2 things.
> 1. start in 2nd gear; and use full acceleration
> frequently
> 2. when I coast to a stop, I will down shift from
> 3rd to 2nd, and as I let
> up the clutch, the motor rev's to a stop
>
> thank you, Ben
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Obrien, Haskell W. wrote:
> For the work, you may find it easier to narrow something newer and
> lighter.
> The aluminum centered dana 44 in the grand Cherokee comes to mind - a
> car axle would be even smaller, but harder to find in a newer vintage
> with the popularity of independent rear suspension.
No idea how difficult it would be to find one without buying an entire
parts car, but a possibility might be the rear axle from a Volvo 122
(1956-70). These were a fairly narrow car, and the rear end is (in my
experience) quite stout. This vehicle was available with rear drums or
4 wheel disk brakes.
I have to say, however, that if you had to buy a donor 122 anyway (as
opposed to finding a read axle at a wreckers), you might consider
converting it instead... It has a 4-link rear suspension, can be had
with 4-wheel disks (122S), has a relatively roomy engine bay and largish
trunk (to sink batteries into), and has great 50's-ish rounded lines.
According to
<http://www.conceptcarz.com/vehicle/z7332/Volvo_122/default.aspx>, the
sedan is relatively heavy at 2400lbs, but bear in mind that this
includes a cast iron 4-banger.
One caution, while the stock 4-link rear suspension and (4.10:1 ratio)
makes it easy to smoke the tires (should one feel the urge ;^), the
stock motor mounts are very soft and separate easily: anyone converting
a 122 to definitely upgrade the motor mounts to something more robust
(and ideally something that if/when they do separate, cannot separate
fully).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
> Man you'd think you guys had never made a lemon acid battery.
No, it is just that there is a world of difference between sticking a
couple of electrodes into a lemon (or potato, etc.) and making a
practical battery.
> And the point isn't can you make it work as well as a modern battery.
> The point for the home builder is can you get 80% of modern
> for 10% of cost.
I think this is the big if that can only be answered by someone actually
trying to build their own and comparing the performance and cost of the
result to simply buying a flooded GC battery.
I believe that the cost will be much higher than you suggest and
performance much lower. Performance includes cycle life, etc. not just
can the cell deliver 80% of the current as a commercial offering, or X
amps at 80% of the voltage that a commercial battery would sag to, etc.
Consider that a typical flooded GC battery contains perhaps 20-30
plates, separators, a case with individual cell compartments, etc. and
costs $80 or less. This means the home builder must be able to cast
their plates and paste them, etc. for less than $4 each to even have a
hope of *matching* the cost of a commercial battery, and this is without
placing any value on their own time.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was told to leave the transmission in gear and let the EV roll to a stop,
which also stops the the rotation of the motor, then shift it. If it's becomes
hard to shift when stop, then just give it a little rpm.
When I pick up my EV and test drive it, I had to rethink everything. In
driving a standard ICE vehicle with a manual transmission I would push in the
clutch without thinking about it while coasting to a stop and I got yell at
every time I did this.
If you push in the clutch, leaving the transmission in gear, the transmission
slows down faster then the motor does, which is the only time there is a rpm
difference between the motor and transmission pilot shaft. If you have the
transmission in neutral and doing a lot of motor testing my running it while
the EV is stop, the pilot shaft of the transmission should rotate with the
motor, because the clutch is engage.
If you need to shift up or down while the EV is moving, do it quickly while
engaging the clutch. In my GM 3 speed transmission which is full sycro. I
cannot shift it without the clutch while slowing down, because the motor is
going faster then transmission shaft and driveline when you engage the clutch.
Unlike a ICE, the engine will slow down, so all you do with a ICE is to give it
a little rpm when slowing down.
Before I install the transmission pilot shaft into this bearing, I put on some
very thick high temperature white wheel bearing grease inside the bearing.
After 25 years it was a little worm, but not bad.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 4:48 PM
Subject: motor pilot bearing worn
I picked up my motor today.
for $460 got commutator cut and polished, enamel spray, pilot bearing
replaced, brushes and springs broken in and installed
So, I hope to remember how it all went back together.
My question,
WHY would the pilot bearing wear down? The motor repair guy didn't know
how the EV motor functions, so perhaps one of you know what I did?
Chevy S10 into manual transmission.
I don't idle the motor.
the worst I can think I do to it are 2 things.
1. start in 2nd gear; and use full acceleration frequently
2. when I coast to a stop, I will down shift from 3rd to 2nd, and as I let
up the clutch, the motor rev's to a stop
thank you, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all
I wanted to chime in here. Most EV'er refer to motors
via inch size which works for ADC and Warp motors
being they have just one maybe two versions in that
size frame. Prestolite and GE however made hundereds
of different 7" motor types (Prestolite even have long
and short styles in 7"). They might all look kind of
the same but are very, very different inside. So when
I here 7" Prestolite I think (and chuckle) which one,
lmao!
I would then agree with Dave that I can easily see
where one would work and one would not, or not well.
With that said and by no means discounting Daves info,
I'd want to look harder at what the failure was caused
by. For instance the shunt lead might have been
connected to the wrong holder, or maybe the motor just
had a weak spot. I base this on examples like Marko
(and many others) running a 7" Presto at 120 volts for
years and FT even running a 12 volt motor at 120 volt!
I guess I'm saying one failure doesn't, or shouldn't
make a pattern. I actually see this fairly often here
on the list, where a someone has a failure and then
feels burnt on that brand. Roland is a great example
of what I'm saying (hope you don't mind R, hehe).
Roland was using I believe an 11" GE motor (a special
model even) which needed attention after years of
service. He bought a Warp 9 as a spare while the GE
is down. When the motor was recieved with chattering
brushes he was a bit miffed (and probably rightly
so)(but in fact might not have been Warfields fault).
When it didn't perform like the GE did, his opinion of
Warp motors was not good, at least this is how it
sounded to me. I guess I'm just saying that this is
not a fair test to judge the Warp brand motors. If
he'd had gone from a 7" GE to a 9" ADC or Warp motor
he'd be like, Damn these motors rock! LMAO!
I've always tried my best to be unbiased when
issuing my opinions and advise. I also try to throw
my opinions out gently and hope they are well received
8^) Anyway just had to throw in my two motor brands
worth 8^P
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dave Cloud,A close friend of mine, with much
> experience with Prestolite
> Motors, and Racing, wanted me to POST this
> additional information about
> the small Prestolite motors. Seems there are TWO
> types, One will NOT
> take High Voltage... the ohter will... His
> message follows...
>
---------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> There are two kinds of 48 Volt Prestolite motors in
> the Lectric
> Leopards. One of them is a straight series motor
> which is very durable.
> I have run this motor on 144 Volts at 700 Amps for
> over 4 minutes with
> no problems (in my boat).
>
> The other motor (which is the most common) is not a
> compound wound
> motor. It is still a series motor, but it has 2
> different kinds of
> field windings. One has the heavy bands that are
> most common in series
> motors. The other has small (approximately 10 gauge)
> wire connected in
> parallel with the other filed windings. This motor
> at 144 Volts is good
> for about 5 seconds and then it will explode. Yes,
> I found this out the
> hard way.
>
> Re: Prestolite motor in Lectric Leopard Lectric
> Leopard Prestolites can
> be identified by the hollowed-out output shaft. To
> determine which of
> the above two motors you are dealing with, you can
> look through the
> brush holder windows and spot the 10 gauge wire
> being hooked to the
> brush rigging.
>
> Dave Cloud
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speed wad ?
What did you mean to say?
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 3:23 pm, Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
Anyway in 1910 they recharged the car batteries by using an ac motor
hooked to the wall to turn a dc charger.
(Another method was a mercury gas rectifier)
You really don't need all the fancy semi conductors mosfets etc.
And speed wad controller with resistors?
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://e.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
| Minnie Driver, Grosse Point
Blank
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correct me if I remember incorrectly, but I think those "kick ass" electrics
were designed to run at around bicycling speeds.
Some were pretty kewel though. How many cars today have flower vases and
lace curtains? <g> I especially like the heater in one I saw... you shoveled
hot coals into a cast iron box.
http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2005/6/24/8395/43617 is an interesting chat.
One person in the UK notes that his batts lose about 5% of their charge
overnight... from standing. I hadn't heard of this before.
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
> Most home tools from black n decker are far behind what was available to
> top factories back then.
> Yet they made batteries and engines and cars that kick gas's ass.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A huge reason (and I was around at the time and remember it well) was
that people had the perception technology suddenly allowed them to piece
together something for a small price that previoulsy had been
unavailable to them.
Remember even an apple 2 sold assembled still had to be put together
with other parts like tape recorders etc and printers etc to make it a
full computer. It wasn't thought of as a "it comes complete" system then
even though you didn't have to build the cpu box with the 2 like you did
with the apple 1.
I remember saving and loading programs off tape recorders with the tandy
too!
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 3:50 pm, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Personally I think the reason Apple survived, early on, was luck.
For whatever reason, a lot of schools selected Apple II computers
during
the early 80s. When the computer iliterate parents of these students
decided to buy a computer they asked their kids what kind, and the kids
responded with what they were familiar with.
I think there is a leason we, as EV hobbiests, can learn from. We need
to
encourage more EV projects, etc. in our schools to get the kids (Future
consumers) more aware of EVs in general and lose the fear of the
unknown.
There is a deep truth in what you say. Apple survived when a lot of
other pioneering microcomputer companies failed because they did have
that connection with hobbyists and enthusiasts. It wasn't just about
money; there was a spirit; a community; an esprit de corp that saw
them
through the hard times. Apple had customers that stuck with them even
when it would have been cheaper and easier to give up and buy
something
else.
Some small car companies have survived the same way. But not many!
Most
go broke, or get gobbled up and homogenized by some bigger car
company.
One challenge is the size of the problem. Computers are $1000; cars
are
$10,000. People can pay double for a unique computer, but not for a
unique car. They might want to; but they can't afford to!
A small company *has* to charge more for its product, because it
doesn't
have a large customer base or the economies of scale. An innovative
company *has* to charge more, because it spends more on product
development (they can't just copy what's gone before).
It's easier for EV companies to build just some small part of the car,
like a controller or charger. That way, customers can say for example,
"So what if my Zilla controller is twice the cost of Curtis? It works
better, and I'm supporting a small EV company."
But they can't afford to go "first class" for the entire car. If they
did, it would be a $50,000 vehicle. So they compromise. You'll see a
cheap old $10,000 EV conversion with a Zilla controller.
So, the cheapest way to build an EV is to convert some worn-out
decade-old ICE, with an ADC motor, Lester charger, Curtis controller,
and a pack of cheap floodeds. But, none of these companies could care
less about EVs. My hope is that the builder does have an eye toward
the
future, and can dream a little, and will buy at least one higher-tech
advanced EV product from someone who really cares about EVs.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Nov 22, 2006 at 06:48:35PM -0800, GWMobile wrote:
> Speed wad ?
> What did you mean to say?
if speed was controlled with resistors. But I was
already answered with the bronze mechanical controller
drawings.
Fascinating :)
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
| Yo.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was re-reading an article on early electric cars. Apparently one prob in
charging was that you could encounter 4 different types of plugs in a
community. Another was the Edison utility... it was DC power... and popular
in some big cities and communities.
The article I read said they charged DC-DC by using a rheostat to drop
voltage to the proper rate... by throwing away the rest as heat. Using this
method, or your generator, wouldn't be very efficient, but it was simple.
They also noted that charging was manually monitored. That's one good thing
about the Edison batt... it could handle harsh treatment.
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 2:30 PM
Subject: David problem with email
> Anyway in 1910 they recharged the car batteries by using an ac motor
> hooked to the wall to turn a dc charger.
> (Another method was a mercury gas rectifier)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What came to my mind was a rear end from a Samurai or Subaru. (The latter
due to its IRS, if you wanted to go that way.) The Sammy has the advantage
of low speed gearing... and both should be readily available for a
relatively cheap price.
That is, if you can't find an original rear end.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 1:11 PM
Subject: RE: EV Austin
> Obrien, Haskell W. wrote:
>
> > For the work, you may find it easier to narrow something newer and
> > lighter.
> > The aluminum centered dana 44 in the grand Cherokee comes to mind - a
> > car axle would be even smaller, but harder to find in a newer vintage
> > with the popularity of independent rear suspension.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I assume this is the pilot bushing and not throw-out bearing that's wearing.
Basically, the pilot bushing won't get any wear when the clutch is locked
up. In an ICE, you usually get wear when you are shifting gears, or sitting
w/ the clutch pushed in, and a bit less so when in neutral. (The tranny
shaft is moving at a different speed from the engine.) It's there to support
the end of the tranny shaft.
That said, I can think of several reasons it would wear. You have a brass
pilot bushing, right? (Just a guess. <g>) If so, you can lube that
bushing... if it's the porous type. That'll help some with friction.
For wear, you could keep your clutch locked when coming to a stop. When
shifting, try to let your motor come down in RPMs before shifting... and
minimize shifts. You can check the tranny shaft... move it up and down... to
see if the front tranny bearing has too much side play. (Poor front seal
life or growling may give indications of a this prob... and will allow any
imbalance at all in the clutch system to pound the bushing.)
You may also want to make sure your flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch
disk is balanced... and even go for a light weight flywheel. Less rotating
mass will mean any imbalance will have less effect. What's good for standard
auto use isn't good at high RPMs... and racers find the slightest
out-of-balance can mean poorer performance (at least years ago... I assume
the same is still true.) There's a lot of spinning mass here and the
slightest imbalance will vibrate the unit & the bushing is countering much
of that force.
Also make sure your motor is 100% aligned. A very slight angle or side
offset will be putting side pressure on the bushing. We went through several
mounting plate designs on one rig we worked on... coupling dis-similar
engine/trannies. You might consider a method of keeping everything perfectly
aligned... such as a guide ring or guide pins... so the motor will slip into
place perfectly squared. (With an ICE, balanced on a properly aligned hoist,
things slip solid into place.) In a perfect world, there should be zero
tension on the tranny input shaft when sliding things together.
One last consideration is if your adaptor has any flex at all.
That's all from working w/ ICE... but I'd think should hold for an EV. We
had an old car... a Plymouth, if I recall, that was constantly having probs.
We eventually found the bellhousing (adaptor in your case) was misaligned
slightly.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 3:48 PM
Subject: motor pilot bearing worn
> WHY would the pilot bearing wear down? The motor repair guy didn't know
> how the EV motor functions, so perhaps one of you know what I did?
> Chevy S10 into manual transmission.
> I don't idle the motor.
> the worst I can think I do to it are 2 things.
> 1. start in 2nd gear; and use full acceleration frequently
> 2. when I coast to a stop, I will down shift from 3rd to 2nd, and as I
let
> up the clutch, the motor rev's to a stop
>
> thank you, Ben
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thatl[ great.
I love how there are mechnical alternatives to "high tech manufactures"
exclusive devices like chips etc.
That's an ingenius solution.
I'l relay more what the book says when I finish that chapter but their
tech predates yours by 15 years! Firs tprinting was 1905 I think.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 4:22 pm, Myles Twete wrote:
GWMobile inquired about how early EV controllers worked:
I am just into the chapter on controlling the motor speed. Am very
interested in how they did it before semiconductors.
Virtually all EV manufacturers used manual rotary mechanical drum
contactors.
These are like large, high power sliprings with 3/8"-1/2" wide copper
or
brass contact segments on the rotating member and spring-loaded
"fingers"
riding on the stator which bring the power in and out of the rotating
contactor.
My 1921 Milburn Light Electric's controller uses 12 fingers and tracks
of
contact segments on a single controller shaft.
Here's the developed diagram of what the rotary contacts on the
Milburn's
controller look like:
http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/ev/milburn27pg11.jpg
Here's a wiring diagram:
http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/ev/milburn27wiring.jpg
, but suffice it to say that with enough parallel circuits, you can do
a lot
of circuit reconfigurin'...
In this case, the controller selects between 8 detent positions:
* 4 forward speeds
* neutral
* plug brake
* reverse, slow
* reverse, faster
The 2 slow forward and the reverse speeds use the 80-84v pack split in
half
and paralleled. The 2 highest speeds use the full 80-84v pack.
The driver, manually moving the control linkage, moves the controller
armature which configures the electric circuit to switch the battery
half-packs from parallel, to series and switches series resistors in
and
out.
While this sounds pretty easy, to reduce sparking and the chance of
high
currents or shorts during pack reconfiguration, a close view of the
development diagram reveals there are far more states than the 8 speed
states that this controller passes thru. From a distance it looks like
certain contacts are made at the same angle (time) as others. For the
most
part, that is the case, but in transitioning from half- to full-pack
there
are 5 intermediate transient states in switching the pack and 2
transient
states in switching from 3rd to 4th.
So while it may seem fairly trivial to make a mechanical rotary
contactor
controller, experience led the early EV developers to realize the
importance
of sequentially enabling and resistive elements & battery connections
to
minimize current & voltage transients while maintaining an expected
torque &
speed change while shifting. They did this by specifying subtle
angular
offsets in the location of switching contacts between speed state
angular
positions in the rotary mechanical controller. You can see this if you
look
closely at the development diagram referenced and look at the inset
electrical state config diags on the wiring diagram.
Hope this helps.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
My Milburn: http://www.milburn.us/myles_twete1921.htm
Milburn website: www.milburn.us
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did your cell work?
Sounds like if it did and you had borrowed the use of a press then you
got a lot of battery plate surface area for $200 !
You decription of pressing doesn't seem that hard.
Can you rool it in a sheet metal press in a machine shp? 2000 lbs/sq in
isn't much for a roller press.
Your technique of scoring is similiar as decribed for lead acid
batteries in the 1910 book.
Those do seems easier to make though.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 3:23 pm, Roland Wiench wrote:
So, you want to make a Nickel-Iron cell. These are not just a nickel
and a iron grid in a electrolyte of potassium hydroxide in water at 21
per cent or 1.200 sp.gr. at 60 deg.fahr.
The positive plate consists of a nickel hydrate for the positive plate
and iron oxide for the negative plate. The frame of the positive plate
is either a solid nickel or nickel-plated steel frame which the nickel
hydroxide and metallic nickel flakes are mix together and press into
the positive frame at a pressure of 2,000 lb. per sq. in.
The negative plate consist of a grid of nickel or nickel plated steel
which holds a mix of iron oxide and oxide of mercury at a pressure of
2,000 lb. per sq. in.
Then the plates are form electrolytically which the plates become
nickel peroxide for the positive and metallic iron for the negative.
The KOH only serves as a carrier of the oxygen between the plates. On
discharge oxygen is transferred from the positive nickel hydrate to the
negative iron oxide.
Back in 1980's I experiment in building one Edison cell. I use one
sheet of 4 foot by 10 foot by 18 gage nickel steel which cost over
$200.00 at that time.
Scored the surface very deeply using a no. 8 grit scoring tool. A
friend of mine happen to be in electro plating, so he brought over all
the chemicals, such a nickel sulfate, iron oxide and other compounds we
order from the Fisher Scientific Laboratories.
We than electro plate the plates and than roll them in a sheet metal
roller to lock in the hydrates and iron oxides and electro plate the
surfaces again.
We then bolted the plates together on nylon tube separators using
nickel steel hard ward.
It was inserted into a class jar design for this operation.
The correct terminology of a cell of a battery is call cells when they
are form in a egg crate type of connected containers in one enclosure
which are call cells.
A battery is a group of cells.
A Jar is one container for with a negative and positive grid.
But everybody calls it a batteries, as not to confuse the non technical
person.
So it is not easy to make a Edison cell. Even some battery
manufactures, do not make there own grids, pasting compounds,
connection bars, containers and tops. This are separate companies that
provide each one of these components.
You can purchase a assembly machine for about $10,000.00 to assembly
these units into either a single cell or a battery of cells.
Roland
If you make on one separated cell, they are call jars, so if you order
separated containers , they are call jars.
----- Original Message -----
From: GWMobile<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
What is the electrolyte in nickel iron batteries? And what are the
proprtions of the metals in the plates?
Have you every considered just making some?
The material are cheap are they not?
This is not rocket science.
People can make their own lead acids easily. Why not nickel iron?
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:41 pm, John H wrote:
> Hi Mike,
> The main reason I want to use NiFes is because they LAST. I'm tired
of
> babysitting my large bank of Trojans and dealing with sulfation,
etc.
> It is not a simple matter to get batteries over to the island we
live
> on, so I want to do it once. I know a guy whose family has some
NiFes
> from 1905 which they are still using. That's a good enough reason
for
> me.
> We have a Trace 4024 inverter which manages the batteries and
starts
> and stops the generator when our solar or hydro can't supply all
our
> demands. But you can't discharge Trojans deeply without damaging
them,
> whereas the NiFes are supposedly bulletproof as far as deep
discharges.
> Thats my take on the situation. If you have other opinions, I'd
like to
> hear them.
> John
>
>
>
>> From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>> Reply-To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
>> To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
>> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:06:00 -0800
>>
>> Out of curiosity, why would you want to go with NiFe for home use?
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "John H" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
>> To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:40 PM
>> Subject: Newbie question about batteries
>>
>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I found this board while looking for sources of Nickel Iron
batteries.
>>> Although I probably won't build an electric vehicle, I am in
need of
>>> NiFe
>>> batteries for our off-grid home.
>>> If anyone has any sources for these batteries (new or used),
whether
>>> they
>> be
>>> original Edison Cells or Eagle-Picher or any others, I would
>>> appreciate
>> the
>>> info.
>>> Thanks,
>>> John
>>>
>>
www.GlobalBoiling.com<http://www.globalboiling.com/> for daily images
about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com<http://www.electricquakes.com/> daily solar
and earthquake images.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
