EV Digest 6160
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Bradley GTE and WKTEC
by Bill & Nancy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: make your own batteries
by Jeremy Rutman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: make your own batteries
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Alternator Hacks
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Solectria battery box temperatures
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Newbie question about batteries
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Don's 13 inch net gain
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Alternator Hacks
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Temperature Correction for State Of Charge Voltage?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Happy Thanksgiving! was/is Re: 81 VW Rabbit Ev on ebay
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) New website created
by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Tom Gocze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Temperature Correction for State Of Charge Voltage?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 11/22/2006 11:52:06 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
NIMH from ovonic is (was?) the STM5 killer (look at their impressive results
on RAV4 EV) but...i doubt they will let this be available again until they
are required to...
The RAV4 used the Panasonic NiMH battery 10 cell 12 volt. Also used in the
Ford Ranger. The Ovonics NiMH battery was used in the EV1 and the S-10. It was
11 cells and 13.2 volts.
Panasonic made some improvements to NiMH battery over Ovonics. It did not
produce as much heat and could get by being cooled with ambient air. The EV1
and
S-10 used a heat pump for air-conditioning the battery pack when needed.
Don
So we are stuck with lead acid and nicad for few years more...until lithium
give better calendar life...
though A123 cells are claimed to have 10 years usable life which, for the
price, seems more acceptable than max 3-5 years from competitors (li-ion,
lipo)
cordialement,
Philippe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am getting closer to getting the GTE on the road, still lots to do
though. Yeaterday I jacked the back end up and hooked my jumper cables
from the evw to the controller and ran it for a few seconds.
The GE motor sounded good, (Thanks Jim!) just a little squeal from the
curtis controller, won't be long till I can drive it.
Today we received our copies of WKTEC and just watched it. Great
movie, didn't get to see it until now as it wasn't shown in this area.
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you really want to fool around with making your own energy
storage, why not go for supercaps
instead. The list already mentioned some company that increased
voltage enough for battery-competitive
energy density.
> Old books on electric vehicles from the 1910's show how easy it is.
...
There are enough aspects of building an EV that require home fabrication
without looking for others ;^).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I'm not mistaken, these work well for capturing regen power, but don't do
well for long time storage of power. A couple sources have used them for
this method, but I haven't heard of any source using them as a batt
replacement. Perhaps due to cost???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeremy Rutman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 10:27 PM
Subject: Re: make your own batteries
> If you really want to fool around with making your own energy
> storage, why not go for supercaps
> instead. The list already mentioned some company that increased
> voltage enough for battery-competitive
> energy density.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i was surprised to read the document about alternator hacks which confirms
the presence of the two windings, field and armature, and that in order to get
power generation the armature is energised. Via the slip-rings the armature
than becomes a permanent magnet of adjustable strength spinning inside a field
coil adn therefore it produces an AC output.
I've changed enough alternators I should've known that before ! but there
you go.
Quote>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) >
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[email protected]) >
Subject: RE: Alternator hacks, WAS: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW-
Misinformation?
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:50:27 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) >
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> I think what fixitSan was proposing was not energising the
> armature in order to allow the alternator to freewheel. Can this
> be done?
Effectively, yes.
Get an alternator which requires external field excitation unlike what Lee
described.
In such case, there are 3 states:
1) Spin w/o field excitation: no torque load---i.e. freewheel
2) Excite field w/o spinning fast enough to charge: alternator consumes
power
3) Excite field while spinning above the minimum rate: alternator charges
Or maybe I don't understand the question...always possible.
-MT
Yes, that's the plan exactly....keep the armature de-enegrised for normal
running, and energise it when braking.
It isn't too difficult to build in a suitable regulator which allows you to
always be energising the armature with enough voltage to get your B+ voltage
at the rectified output, but you do need to build another rectifier, cheap as
they are.
I saw the comment about there being no current division as voltage
increases, it's quite right to say that, I may have misled myself there. If you
have a
120Amp alternator at 12V it can produce 120Amps at 48V if you rotated it
quickly enough. Alternators have a maximum speed and this should be observed.
Chris
GM4UCD
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Nov 2006 at 16:07, GWMobile wrote:
> Man you'd think you guys had never made a lemon acid battery.
Of course I have. But I didn't try to run an EV on it! ;-)
There's a HUGE gulf between a simple grade-school experiment and a practical
energy source for a 1200kg EV.
>
> Yes forming charge is discussed but not called that.
I've seen this in old books, too.
> The point for the home builder is can you get 80% of modern for 10% of
> cost.
> Right?
I await the evidence from you. You're making authoritative statements, but
you don't offer any evidence for them.
It's one thing to say, "I can make a battery." Any high school kid with a
decent education (I hope there are a few) can do that - there's your lemon
juice battery, the one I made when I was 6 or 8 years old. It's quite
another matter to claim that you can make a practical, usable EV battery.
And, please forgive me, but claiming that, using a wooden box and plain lead
plates, you can make a battery that supplies 80% of the performance of a
rather well optimized modern lead battery stretches my credulity a bit.
I want to see you build it.
The best modern lead batteries will produce a specific energy of 36 Wh/kg.
But I'll ask you only to match 80% of a typical golf car battery's
performance. Here are the aspects of performance I would like you to meet
within 80% :
- cycle life = 650- 800 cycles
- specific energy = 28 Wh/kg
- energy density = 55 Wh/l
Your battery should also be capable of producing 120 volts or more at 75
amps or more continously, and 400 amps or more for at least one minute, to
be a reasonably practical EV battery. You will have to demonstrate this
performance.
This is my challenge to you. Build your own EV battery according to the
plans you cite, using commonly available materials. No cheating and buying
premade cases, grids, separators, or any other parts from battery industry
suppliers! This battery must be made with non-battery-specific materials
that anyone can buy from a lumberyard, hardware store, and/or chemical
supply house. You must use "large lead plates hanging in wooden boxes
treated to resist the acid."
Fit your EV with this battery. If you don't have a suitable EV for testing,
you can demonstrate its function with a dummy load. It must produce as
described above - 120 volts or more at 75 amps or more continuously, 400
amps or more for one minute (with 5 minutes between 400 amp demands). If
you can't make 120 volts' worth, then you may extrapolate, but please build
at least a 6 volt battery. It will still have to supply the current
discussed above.
Don't forget to measure and weigh the battery before installing it. You
will need these dimensions to calculate the specific energy and energy
density.
Conduct a test period to demonstrate the following performance. Of course,
you are not allowed to rebuild or repair the battery during the test period;
you may only add water as necessary.
Each factor listed is 80% of a golf car battery's :
- cycle life = 520 cycles
- specific energy = 22.4 Wh/kg
- energy density = 44 Wh/l
Just to be clear, here are the definitions :
Cycle life : the number of discharge cycles before capacity falls to 80% of
rated capacity (in this case I'll accept your initial measured capacity as
the rated capacity). If I'm not mistaken, a cycle by BCI standards begins
with a fully charged battery. The battery is discharged to 1.75 volts per
cell, then recharged to 100% - one full cycle.
Specific energy : Watt-hours produced in a 75-amp constant current discharge
to 1.75 volts per cell, divided by the battery's mass in kilograms.
Energy density : Watt-hours produced in a 75-amp constant current discharge
to 1.75 volts per cell, divided by the battery's volume in liters.
I'm not going to say it can't be done, but I'll admit I'm skeptical. Show
me that you can build an EV battery that meets this "80% of modern" standard
(actually more like "80% of 1975"), and I'll be convinced - and impressed.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> This is my challenge to you. Build your own EV battery according to the
> plans you cite, using commonly available materials. No cheating and
> buying
Oh heck let him cheat. Who cares as long as he can build it for the price
he quoted, right?
Of course the reality is that he CAN'T build it for 10% of the cost. If
he thinks he can, he obviously hasn't checked the price on pure lead
recently.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Roger, don't forget to mention the extreme toxicity of basically
every compound in the battery!
Okay, GW, if the process involves mixing anything at high temperatures,
please, please, please don't do it! Look online and see the complexity
of systems they use to keep lead from poisoning everything. No, the
manufacturing technology is not very complicated, but the complexity of
keeping our fish edible is!
If you don't have to anything dangerous and do end up go through with
this, I have a few ideas for you. First, borrow from the Eagle-Picher
Horizon battery and use a fiberglass-reinforced grid for the positive
electrode. Better yet, use carbon fiber to increase the conductance
(slightly). Second, make it so the plates can be removed from the
electrolyte in one quick motion (or vice versa). Whenever the vehicle's
not driving or charging, separate the two. This'll increase calendar
life and/or allow you to get a better power out of the battery by
increasing the concentration of the acid (trade-off). Just don't let it
drop below 1.75Vpc or it'll be ruined quickly. Third, see if you can
make it a spiral-wound flooded battery. It'll boost the power density.
That all being said, you can probably get a similar energy density to
commercial batteries, but I doubt you'll get anywhere near the power or
cycle life. But if you do, patent it and send me some of the first
manufacturing prototypes to test!
Cory Cross
Old books on electric vehicles from the 1910's show how easy it is.
I'll echo Dave here and suggest that interesting as those old books may
be, the proof will be in you personally building your own battery and
reporting back to the list on what it cost, how long it took, and how
its performance compares to that of a *modern* lead acid battery bought
off the shelf. Let's make it easier on you: don't build a battery, just
build a single cell.
The plates are not just sheets of lead suspended in electrolyte; the
grids are doped with additives such as antimony to improve their life,
and they are coated with pastes (the actual active material; the lead
plate doesn't participate in the cell reaction): does your book describe
how to mix up your own paste, and even if it does, do you believe that
the paste formulation described in a turn-of-the-century book will
compare in perfomance with what manufacturers are using today? Does
your book describe how to perform the "forming charge" required by a new
battery before it is placed into service?
I think it is fairly safe to say that while it is possible for a home
builder to construct their own flooded lead acid cell, it will be
difficult for them to build the number of cells required for an EV with
anything approaching the reliability, consistency, and performance
(especially if using a turn-of-the-century recipe) of the humble flooded
GC batteries that are readily available.
There are enough aspects of building an EV that require home fabrication
without looking for others ;^)... If one really finds the cost of new
flooded GC batteries unpalatable, I think it would make more sense to
seek out a source of good used batteries (e.g. takeouts from leased
fleet golf carts) than to undertake construction of ones' own batteries.
We could probably make our own wheels, tires, etc. too, but at some
point you have to recognise that it is more practical to use what is
already commecially available.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all:
Has anyone ever taken the temperature of a Force's battery boxs before, during
and after charging over a period of time (say a week)? I use two
indoor/outdoor thermometers with a six foot wired lead for measuring the
outside temp (inserted into each of the battery boxes) and am astonished with
the results. My front thermostat went BO and in replacing it I decided to take
measurements. I have nothing to compare the front box to but the rear box
(which I started measuring 6-8 weeks ago) unless someone else has done
something similar.
Has anyone compiled this data and are they willing to share? I would be
willing to discuss this either on or off list.
Jim Donovan
Westwood, KS
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Making batteries may be easier nowadays than before. I did some serious
looking into the making of Li-ion cells at one time. I Found complete
write ups from battery research labs and the making of the anode or
cathode materials chemicals is where the high tech is so let the
specialist do it.
This is how nicad,nimh,and lithium ion are made. Lead acid is a little
different, I think the new fancy batteries are making lead acid this way
to get lighter cells.
You buy collector grid in copper or aluminum, mix the powdered chemical
with the binder and apply the slurry to the plates, colander(press
between rollers) and dry.
then assemble with separators and fill with electrolyte.
With the new binders, this whole process can be done in the open. Then
the plates enter a drying oven and from that point on stay in the argon
filled environment. Assembly is done in a box that looks like a
sandblasting booth. A vacuum is pulled on the assembly while the cell
sits on a scale then the electrolyte is allowed to be sucked in until
the weight is reached. Then comes ageing and commisioning.
You can get thin flat plates with an etched surface for high amp cells
or you can get micro screen that holds a lot of active material for high
capacity cells.
This website has a lot of stuff
http://www.predmaterials.com/
like the foil
http://www.predmaterials.com/en_batt/FoilShowaSeiko.html
One warning, the guy who owns this business is, uhm, lets just say not
the easiest to deal with. I put this link here only for the pictures.
Searching for the products one by one on google finds more amiable
suppliers.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maximum discharge of a nickel-iron cell is about .75 volts and can be charge to
a maximum of 1.95 volts. The open voltage of a cell should be at about 1.5
volts and at a 1.5 volt load, it is normal for the cell to drop to 1.2 volts at
initial load and can continue to .75 volts.
It would light a 1.5 lamp all day long, I do not remember what the watt-hour
rate this would be.
I use a 2.1 volt 300 ampere-hour cobalt cell, in stock spare cell that I was
using at the time, for charging this cell.
This was just a experiment in this science. We use the same type of
nickel-steel which may be call stainless steel in a different grade, for
building other devices at the time.
We ran the plates through a sheet metal roller at our shop.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: GWMobile<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
Did your cell work?
Sounds like if it did and you had borrowed the use of a press then you
got a lot of battery plate surface area for $200 !
You decription of pressing doesn't seem that hard.
Can you rool it in a sheet metal press in a machine shp? 2000 lbs/sq in
isn't much for a roller press.
Your technique of scoring is similiar as decribed for lead acid
batteries in the 1910 book.
Those do seems easier to make though.
On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 3:23 pm, Roland Wiench wrote:
> So, you want to make a Nickel-Iron cell. These are not just a nickel
> and a iron grid in a electrolyte of potassium hydroxide in water at 21
> per cent or 1.200 sp.gr. at 60 deg.fahr.
>
> The positive plate consists of a nickel hydrate for the positive plate
> and iron oxide for the negative plate. The frame of the positive plate
> is either a solid nickel or nickel-plated steel frame which the nickel
> hydroxide and metallic nickel flakes are mix together and press into
> the positive frame at a pressure of 2,000 lb. per sq. in.
>
> The negative plate consist of a grid of nickel or nickel plated steel
> which holds a mix of iron oxide and oxide of mercury at a pressure of
> 2,000 lb. per sq. in.
>
> Then the plates are form electrolytically which the plates become
> nickel peroxide for the positive and metallic iron for the negative.
>
> The KOH only serves as a carrier of the oxygen between the plates. On
> discharge oxygen is transferred from the positive nickel hydrate to the
> negative iron oxide.
>
> Back in 1980's I experiment in building one Edison cell. I use one
> sheet of 4 foot by 10 foot by 18 gage nickel steel which cost over
> $200.00 at that time.
>
> Scored the surface very deeply using a no. 8 grit scoring tool. A
> friend of mine happen to be in electro plating, so he brought over all
> the chemicals, such a nickel sulfate, iron oxide and other compounds we
> order from the Fisher Scientific Laboratories.
>
> We than electro plate the plates and than roll them in a sheet metal
> roller to lock in the hydrates and iron oxides and electro plate the
> surfaces again.
>
> We then bolted the plates together on nylon tube separators using
> nickel steel hard ward.
>
> It was inserted into a class jar design for this operation.
>
> The correct terminology of a cell of a battery is call cells when they
> are form in a egg crate type of connected containers in one enclosure
> which are call cells.
>
> A battery is a group of cells.
>
> A Jar is one container for with a negative and positive grid.
>
> But everybody calls it a batteries, as not to confuse the non technical
> person.
>
> So it is not easy to make a Edison cell. Even some battery
> manufactures, do not make there own grids, pasting compounds,
> connection bars, containers and tops. This are separate companies that
> provide each one of these components.
>
> You can purchase a assembly machine for about $10,000.00 to assembly
> these units into either a single cell or a battery of cells.
>
> Roland
>
> If you make on one separated cell, they are call jars, so if you order
> separated containers , they are call jars.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: GWMobile<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]:[email protected]>>
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 1:51 PM
> Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
>
>
> What is the electrolyte in nickel iron batteries? And what are the
> proprtions of the metals in the plates?
>
> Have you every considered just making some?
> The material are cheap are they not?
>
> This is not rocket science.
> People can make their own lead acids easily. Why not nickel iron?
>
>
> On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 12:41 pm, John H wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> > The main reason I want to use NiFes is because they LAST. I'm tired
> of
> > babysitting my large bank of Trojans and dealing with sulfation,
> etc.
> > It is not a simple matter to get batteries over to the island we
> live
> > on, so I want to do it once. I know a guy whose family has some
> NiFes
> > from 1905 which they are still using. That's a good enough reason
> for
> > me.
> > We have a Trace 4024 inverter which manages the batteries and
> starts
> > and stops the generator when our solar or hydro can't supply all
> our
> > demands. But you can't discharge Trojans deeply without damaging
> them,
> > whereas the NiFes are supposedly bulletproof as far as deep
> discharges.
> > Thats my take on the situation. If you have other opinions, I'd
> like to
> > hear them.
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>
> >> Reply-To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]:[email protected]>>
> >> To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]:[email protected]>>>
> >> Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
> >> Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2006 19:06:00 -0800
> >>
> >> Out of curiosity, why would you want to go with NiFe for home use?
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "John H" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>>
> >> To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]:[email protected]>>>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2006 1:40 PM
> >> Subject: Newbie question about batteries
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi,
> >>> I found this board while looking for sources of Nickel Iron
> batteries.
> >>> Although I probably won't build an electric vehicle, I am in
> need of
> >>> NiFe
> >>> batteries for our off-grid home.
> >>> If anyone has any sources for these batteries (new or used),
> whether
> >>> they
> >> be
> >>> original Edison Cells or Eagle-Picher or any others, I would
> >>> appreciate
> >> the
> >>> info.
> >>> Thanks,
> >>> John
> >>>
> >>
>
>
www.GlobalBoiling.com<http://www.globalboiling.com/<http://www.globalboiling.com%3chttp//www.globalboiling.com/>>
for daily images
> about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
>
www.ElectricQuakes.com<http://www.electricquakes.com/<http://www.electricquakes.com%3chttp//www.electricquakes.com/>>
daily solar
> and earthquake images.
www.GlobalBoiling.com<http://www.globalboiling.com/> for daily images about
hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com<http://www.electricquakes.com/> daily solar and
earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon has some pictures up of Don's S10 with the 13 inch motor ,,,,
http://www.grassrootsev.com/projects.htm He'll be at the Battery Beach
Brun out event if he gets his controller . I got my first ride in my porsche
912 with the 2 9's , got lots to do , but plenty of time ( ya , you know how
that goes ) to work out the bugs .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'd love to see that article!
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have a copy of a couple circa 1912 articles in the AUTOMOBILE
magazine's
> Electric Vehicle issue which describe Edison's NiFe cells. One of the
> articles gets into the nitty gritty of how they are configured & made,
> including pics showing the huge machinery used to make the cells. I
recall
> one of the nickel plated electrodes literally was something like 8
> rectangular cages in which iron oxide (rust) chunks were enclosed. The
> other electrode was made up of something like 24 nickel-plated
cylindrical
> cages in which a huge number of small alternating material discs were
> stacked----that part sounded real hard to do...
>
> -MT
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Roger Stockton
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 2:12 PM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: RE: Newbie question about batteries
> >
> >
> > GWMobile wrote:
> >
> > > Old books on electric vehicles from the 1910's show how easy it is.
> >
> > I'll echo Dave here and suggest that interesting as those old
books may
> > be, the proof will be in you personally building your own battery and
> > reporting back to the list on what it cost, how long it took, and how
> > its performance compares to that of a *modern* lead acid battery
bought
> > off the shelf. Let's make it easier on you: don't build a
battery, just
> > build a single cell.
> >
> > The plates are not just sheets of lead suspended in electrolyte; the
> > grids are doped with additives such as antimony to improve their life,
> > and they are coated with pastes (the actual active material; the lead
> > plate doesn't participate in the cell reaction): does your book
describe
> > how to mix up your own paste, and even if it does, do you believe that
> > the paste formulation described in a turn-of-the-century book will
> > compare in perfomance with what manufacturers are using today? Does
> > your book describe how to perform the "forming charge" required by
a new
> > battery before it is placed into service?
> >
> > I think it is fairly safe to say that while it is possible for a home
> > builder to construct their own flooded lead acid cell, it will be
> > difficult for them to build the number of cells required for an EV
with
> > anything approaching the reliability, consistency, and performance
> > (especially if using a turn-of-the-century recipe) of the humble
flooded
> > GC batteries that are readily available.
> >
> > There are enough aspects of building an EV that require home
fabrication
> > without looking for others ;^)... If one really finds the cost of new
> > flooded GC batteries unpalatable, I think it would make more sense to
> > seek out a source of good used batteries (e.g. takeouts from leased
> > fleet golf carts) than to undertake construction of ones' own
batteries.
> >
> > We could probably make our own wheels, tires, etc. too, but at some
> > point you have to recognise that it is more practical to use what is
> > already commecially available.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a steep hill I was traveling everyday going back and forth to work. Not
bad in the summer where the EV could get over 80 mph going down, but in the
winter this was dangerous on a snow pack road. Running studs all around and
down shifting did not help at all, so I:
Install two alternators that were belted off the pilot shaft of the motor. One
alternator was a standard 80 amp Delco with internal regulator. A two wire
type, which one wire is the 12 volt output and the small R-wire which is the
input 12 volt control wire to turn on the regulator.
You can install a 10 ohm resistor in the R-wire circuit for normal 13.5 to 14.5
charging. Increasing or decreasing this value, you can lower or raised this
voltage a little.
The other alternator was a large 145 amp Delco that is normally use for large
utility trucks that need accessory power to run on board and external power
equipment.
This alternator comes with three external post for three phase output directly
from the 3 phase poles of the alternator.
Also there is a negative field, positive field, and rectifier output of the 3
phase poles. The three phase and fields output is connected to a Dynamote
Inverter which is design to run off this alternator. The output of this system
is 120 V 60 Hz 7Kw which can be transfer to the onboard heater 2400 watt heater
systems.
This type of system provides a steady 120 volts any time the alternator is at
1000 rpm which is need to excite the fields. If you notice the pulley size on
a alternator and on a engine, this is about a 4 to 1 ratio, where the motor is
at 250 rpm and the alternator is at 1000 rpm.
If you use one of those kits to convert the fields in a alternator, you can
get out 110 Volt D C only, not 120 Volt A.C. and you must maintain a higher
alternator speed. I tested this out, and I think it had to be over 3000 rpm to
maintain 110 Volt D.C.
When I back out of the garage and in the driveway, my alternators have come on
line.
This additional load on is not on the main motor electrical system, but is on
the mechanical only while the EV is coasting down any hills or coasting to a
stop, while the main motor and battery pack are reading 0 amperes, but the
accessories units are generating power.
This systems feels just like compression braking of a ICE and the EV can
maintain a slower speed down a hill.
Before I did this mod, I was running all my accessories off motors that came
off the battery pack, which uses power all the time, and could be as high as 30
amps at 180 volts while I was stop or coasting down hill or to a stop.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:56 AM
Subject: Alternator Hacks
i was surprised to read the document about alternator hacks which confirms
the presence of the two windings, field and armature, and that in order to
get
power generation the armature is energised. Via the slip-rings the armature
than becomes a permanent magnet of adjustable strength spinning inside a
field
coil adn therefore it produces an AC output.
I've changed enough alternators I should've known that before ! but there
you go.
Quote>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>_
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) >
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>_
(mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>) >
Subject: RE: Alternator hacks, WAS: Parallel Nimh is Here NOW-
Misinformation?
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:50:27 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>_
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>) >
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> I think what fixitSan was proposing was not energising the
> armature in order to allow the alternator to freewheel. Can this
> be done?
Effectively, yes.
Get an alternator which requires external field excitation unlike what Lee
described.
In such case, there are 3 states:
1) Spin w/o field excitation: no torque load---i.e. freewheel
2) Excite field w/o spinning fast enough to charge: alternator consumes
power
3) Excite field while spinning above the minimum rate: alternator charges
Or maybe I don't understand the question...always possible.
-MT
Yes, that's the plan exactly....keep the armature de-enegrised for normal
running, and energise it when braking.
It isn't too difficult to build in a suitable regulator which allows you to
always be energising the armature with enough voltage to get your B+ voltage
at the rectified output, but you do need to build another rectifier, cheap
as
they are.
I saw the comment about there being no current division as voltage
increases, it's quite right to say that, I may have misled myself there. If
you have a
120Amp alternator at 12V it can produce 120Amps at 48V if you rotated it
quickly enough. Alternators have a maximum speed and this should be
observed.
Chris
GM4UCD
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI folks,
Can anyone point me to info on the correction for temperature for
cell voltage and state of charge? Everyone specs them at 25 degrees
C and I was hopping to find out what would be the full charge voltage
at lower temperatures.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
By now it may have a loving home? That wouldn't, by chance, be the old
Mark Hastings/Seth Allan/ to whereEVer, Rabbit? As there arent very many
Rabbit left ANYWHERE, but in New England Rust-O-Matic capitol of the world,
seeing a survivor, is something to comment on!For old times sake it was
traded at about 500 bux, would NEVER pass a road inspection, as it was
getting to, 3 years ago, to resemble swiss cheese, underneith. Shame, as it
was a nice thought out package. With 72 volts worth of batteries a 6 " motor
and Curset controller, a K an' W charger it was a perfect in town car. It
didn't have the "Led Sled" effect, was reasonably heavy, would get up to 60
in a few daze , but was good in in town traffic. This is what the fellow we
bought it from in Delaware, had built it for.With the wimpy Curset you used
ALL the gears ALL the time. Like an old VW.
Soooo, getting to the point. Go get a Jetta or Golf that isn't mulch,
transplant the motor, controller, charger, to a clean glider and live
happily EVer after!
My two Wabbits worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Happy Holidays!
I have recently created a website located at: www.elecars.spaces.live.com
Here you will find many pdf files of documents & tech manuals dating back to
late 1970's and early 1980's I located from my father's estate.
You may find them as fascinating as I have, relating to the changes that have
occurred (or not) to the advancement of electric cars since the late 1970's.
My father invested in the company and was a dealer for the "Freeway HMV"
automobile. I initially created the"elecars" site for Freeway owners, but was
requested to add my collection of EV documents as I have many Freeway owners
interested in building EV's.
Check back frequently as I have many documents to add to this site and it will
take time to complete this project.
If you go to my other website: www.dbd3.spaces.live.com and scroll to bottom of
that page, you will find a section "My Favorite Websites" There you will find
many links to electric car & kit car websites.
Don B. Davidson III
www.dbd3.spaces.live.com
www.elecars.spaces.live.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: steve clunn<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 7:48 AM
Subject: Don's 13 inch net gain
Jon has some pictures up of Don's S10 with the 13 inch motor ,,,,
http://www.grassrootsev.com/projects.htm<http://www.grassrootsev.com/projects.htm>
He'll be at the Battery Beach
Brun out event if he gets his controller . I got my first ride in my porsche
912 with the 2 9's , got lots to do , but plenty of time ( ya , you know how
that goes ) to work out the bugs .
Steve Clunn
Hello Steve,
I see you mounted the Warp 13 behind the cab. My GE 11.5 inch barely fits in
the transmission tunnel with only 1/2 inch clearance. I was thinking of a spare
13 inch, because Jim Hurst say's I would go awwwwww if I go up in size.
I thought I could drop the motor and transmission mounts down 1 inch, but a
master mechanic which does a lot of design for me, said the drive line must not
get less than 2 inch difference in parallel between the motor axils and the
differential axils for a distance of 6 feet. He says that the drive line needs
this minimum angle for the u-joints bearings to rotate. If you made them
inline, than these U-joints bearings will not rotated and also will get a
wobble in the drive line. So I stuck with a 11.5 inch motor.
Be sure to check your drive line angle while the vehicle is on grade. The
mech said used the ratio of 2 inches per 6 feet of drive line or could be 1
inch at 3 feet or 1/2 inch at 18 inches, etc. Also check the drop when the
vehicle is jack up. The shorter the driveline, the drive line slide out and
angle will be greater than if the drive line is longer and the u-joints yokes
could bang together.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
How many lemon batteries will I need to replace my 1000# of niccads?? ;7{
Of all the things I have ever thought of fooling with, toxic metal, caustic or
acid electrolyte and hydrogen outgassing is not any part of them.
I am a big proponent of fooling around with contactor controllers, switched
controllers, rectator controllers and just big switches as a means to cut costs
and fool around with ev's. I do not like the silicon controllers, but they do
work great and I am ALWAYS watching for a deal on them (ain't we all!)
I would suggest that turn of the century books are a great resource. I have
bought many of them, they are a great insight! They are simple to follow and a
wonderful read. But, you should also try to get a copy of some recent books
like How to Convert an Electric Car by Ted Lucas(~1972 and out of print-someone
should update it--LEE?????--I hate asci art!). It was the seminal book with the
rectator design info.
A little dated on many things but very well written and a great design primer
on low cost design with minimal silicon.
AND a big caveat, those turn of the century cars usually ran up to 15-30mph
(when they were screaming!!). You can do better, but this is not an apples and
apples changeover.
AND, look at the size of those old motors and differentials. They were huge.
The motors used a lot of copper to operate efficiently. Our motors (if I might
generalize on an area I feel somewhat inadequate in understanding!) are very
expensive investments if we are to get a similar powered motor. After all, we
all lust for the 11" GE forklift motors on ebay!
AND, anyone can build a charger. Making it efficient, ie, what you buy as
electricity actually charges your batteries, is another matter. And how badly
you screw up your batteries, homebuilt or bought is another story. The common
threads on EVDL are batteries and good chargers for a reason.
If you are just starting out to play with DIY ev's. Please remember when you do
start fooling with contactor or any controlled ev, that you need lots of
circuit breakers/fuses and you have to try to be very safe. An uncontrolled ev
is very deadly.
As it was said here before, you have enough to deal with without trying to
build batteries.
My two lemons worth.
Tom in Maine
www.hotandcold.tv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Second, make it so the plates can be removed from the
> electrolyte in one quick motion (or vice versa). Whenever the vehicle's
> not driving or charging, separate the two. This'll increase calendar
> life
Are you sure? I believe that, if you do this, the plates will oxidize and
you will drastically REDUCE their calendar life.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you looking for end of charge voltage or the standing voltage after 24
hrs?
What type/brand of batteries? There is a simple formula for temperature
compensation (i.e. so many milivolts per degree), but I seem to recall
that there is a slight difference between manufacturers.
Check the manufacturers website for charging instructions, they almost
always include the temperature compensation information.
> HI folks,
>
> Can anyone point me to info on the correction for temperature for
> cell voltage and state of charge? Everyone specs them at 25 degrees
> C and I was hopping to find out what would be the full charge voltage
> at lower temperatures.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
