EV Digest 6163
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Temperature Correction for State Of Charge Voltage?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Double of WEB addresses
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
by "Offgrid Engineering" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Alternator Hacks
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) 4 Brusa Chargers was Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) Re: motor pilot bearing worn
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Clutchless shifting
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV conversion kit for under $60
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Double of WEB addresses
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Double of WEB addresses
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Double of WEB addresses
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Double of WEB addresses
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, I know that hotter batteries need a lower charge voltage, but I
thought they had a higher standing voltage. I know really cold batteries
have a very low voltage.
> Strange....
>
> I always heard that hotter batteries have lower voltage,
> the temp compensation needs to be negative.
> That is also my experience in measuring battery voltage after
> charging - my AGMs can be as high as 13.25V hours after their
> charging, but this surface charge disappears quickly after a
> little load has been applied.
> The spreadsheet on this faq page tells that the higher the temp
> the higher the battery voltage, so I have the impression that
> the FAQ is faulty.
>
> I checked one battery charger spec sheet and I read about
> their optional temp sensor:
> "Therefore, the Phase Three charger is designed to utilize this
> optional remote sensor which provides automatic temperature
> compensation. The remote sensor will signal the charger to
> fine tune its output voltage so that it is properly matched to
> the temperature of the battery/battery environment.
> The adjustment rate is approximately -3 mV per cell per °F,
> or -5 mV per cell per °C."
>
> Here we see the expected negative temp compensation again.
> Is the temp compensation different for charging than for
> standing voltage?
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Storm Connors
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 10:37 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Temperature Correction for State Of Charge Voltage?
>
>
> I checked the BatteryFAQ and found that 12.756v at 40 degrees was 100%
> SOC.
> My pack of Dynasty batteries at 40 degrees shows 12.95v/battery and it has
> been resting for 48 hours. Mine have consistantly been a bit over what the
> charts show.
> storm
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 1:22:56 PM
> Subject: Re: Temperature Correction for State Of Charge Voltage?
>
> Ted Sanders wrote:
>>Go to www.batterufaq.org
>
> I assume that was supposed to be www.batteryfaq.org Anyway, thanks
> for the info, it looks like I found the answer.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just out of curiousity, what do you mean by double up? Can you send in an
example?
> Hello David,
>
> Ok, but when I get the reply back to me which I sent with the WEB address,
> I get the WEB address double up. You say it does not double up when I
> reply back to someone. I just have to live with this, because I do not
> have to open up my WEB addresses I send and comes back to me.
>
> One time, I got a double up address generate by one person, and the rest
> of the WEB addresses were ok.
>
> Roland
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Just another random thought: If you used a torque tube, and let the motor pivot
for suspension action, you would get a couple of racing benefits:
The torque tube would double as a torque arm (like on a Camaro). This
pushes the rear axle down towards the ground when accelerating, greatly
improving traction.
You would be reacting the motor torque through the torque tube rather than
the car body. This would help preserve the suspension geometry, and help the
car corner a bit better.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:45:31 AM
Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
Storm Connors wrote:
>> Back in the "olde days" some vehicles used a torque tube so there
>> were no U-joints at all.
Dave Wilker wrote:
> Torque tube driveshafts had u-joints, but just in the front, by the
> transmission output shaft.
Torque tube suspensions either have a single U-joint at the back of the
motor (so the rear axle pivots on a line through the U-joint); or they
rigidly mount the motor to the drive shaft, so axle, shaft, and motor
all bounce up/down together, pivoting at some point on the motor in its
rubber mounts.
Many EVs use torque tube suspension with no U-joints, and with the motor
rigidly attached to the drive shaft. Many golf carts and industrial EVs
do this. So does the Tango, for that matter.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Peter:
Even with a pwm controller and a series wound motor, because we only have
2KW max power available from the pv, one would want to lower voltage to get
more current (a buck topology) to get higher torque, right? At 56V, the max
current available from pv is only about 32 amps. We need more than that to
accelerate from the starting line, so design goal is for 100+ amps.
I agree that torque is key, so the key is to produce max torque at all
speeds. The AGNI motor models out to:
30Nm at 6V/160A (eff = 16%)
26Nm at 11V/150A, (eff = 63%)
19Nm at 17V/113A, (eff = 78%)
14Nm at 22V/85 A, (eff = 84%)
11Nm at 27V/68 A, (eff = 86%)
9Nm at 33V/56A, (eff = 88%)
and so forth, finally ending at:
3.5Nm at 56V/34A (eff = 90%)
Note that these are the max available currents from the pv, if a buck
switching regulator is used, with 2KW. There may be a configuration with
only 1.2KW available!!
Can I get that kind of torque from a series wound with that much current
available?? Any idea which one?
Thanks again
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
You might want to consider using a series motor and controller instead.
Drag racing is mostly about torque, rather than efficiency. Series wound
motors are the kings of torque.
With this setup you wouldn't need to worry about switching from 12V to 56V,
the motor and controller will take care of that for you.
You'd have to experiment, but adding the low ESR capacitors might improve
the performance. Then again, the judges might decide that the capacitors
constitute an energy storage system.
> Hello all:
> Happy turkey day!!
>
> WE are a high school student team who is building a car to compete in
> a solar car drag race.
> The power is supplied only by solar, no energy storage is allowed.
> We are in need of a motor.
>
> The specs are:
> overall weight of car = 630 lbs
> electric power available = about 2000w at Vmp = 56VDC Max point power
> tracker (MPPT) = will be used if needed, array direct is preferred.
> Gearing on car, will be used if needed, depending on motor torque, rpm
> (CVT possible but simple bike gearing for simplicity is preferred)
> Distance of race = 1/4km Desired speed at end = AS fast as possible!!
> (24mph?) Current available at beginning of race to accelerate = about
> 120 amps at 12V Current available at end of race to accelerate = about
> 32 amps at 56V
>
>
> I have looked at the hub motors, they don't have a very high
> efficiency across the 0 - full rpm range that we would get from a
> external motor with a transmission with 2 or 3 speeds.
>
> Brushless motors are interesting, but the motor controllers for the
> power range we need usually current limit way before 120 amps. I
> don't believe induction motors with inverter will be efficient enough.
>
> So I like pancake motors, and of these the part with the highest
> efficiency spec, (looked at Lemco, Perm Motor, Scott, and Etek)
> appears to be AGNI motor at:
> http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&;
> id=30&
> Itemid=42
>
> These are pricey at 1339 USD, but they are available and seem to come
> from a good gene pool.
>
> We plan to accelerate at the start using about 12V and high current,
> then shift to a higher voltage to allow the RPM's to come up.
> Connecting to the array directly at some point (and monitoring with a
> micro to keep the Vmp at 56V) will allow max power transfer to the
> motor.
>
> My question is, do we have the right motor, is there a better one, and
> if so is it in stock and available.
> We don't want anything made of unobtaniuim (read: very expensive or
> not available)?? Also any drive ideas will be welcome of course!!
>
>
>
> Thanks much (for reading this far!)
>
> Tim Economu
> 2006 South Whidbey Solar car Drag Team
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out patent 4200683
The issue being, does it matter if the plates are partially discharged?
>>>Oops, sorry wrong term, I should have said sulfate. I knew there was a
>>>
>>>problem with exposing the plates to air.
>>>From: http://www.batterystuff.com/tutorial_battery.html
>>>
>>>"battery plates exposed to air will immediately sulfate."
>>>Sulfation leads to early failure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
(mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) >
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 23:30:38 -0800
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) >
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[email protected])
Subject: Re: Alternator Hacks
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
> I was surprised to read the document about alternator hacks which
> confirms the presence of the two windings, field and armature, and
> that in order to get power generation the armature is energised.
> Via the slip-rings the armature than becomes a permanent magnet of
> adjustable strength spinning inside a field coil and therefore it
> produces an AC output.
Close, but not quite right. The field of an alternator is the rotating
part; it is powered with DC via the slip rings. Since is rotates, it is
called the "rotor".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Of course !...the winding which provides the magnetic field has to be called
the field, wether it's the rotor or the stator.......
I can't wait to see what mistakes I make building a controller now ... !!!
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Philippe
You might be correct.
If anyone wants some chargers for NiCad batteries I have four Brusa NLG 412
Chargers. I don't know if they work or not I am not sure how to test them. I
paid just under 1100 for all 4 of them. I would like to break even and see
them put to use. Long story but I bought these when I had a Solectria which
had
the same Brusa charger. They are set up for 120 volts of SAFT NiCad
batteries and would need an EPROM change to do anything else.
Anyone know if these would work on NiMH batteries?
Don
In a message dated 11/23/2006 10:57:17 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
the Think use STM5-100MRE nicad, world best EV commuter battery imho
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "MARK DUTKO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v
> Is this the same pack in the Think City?
>
> Mark
> On Nov 22, 2006, at 10:46 AM, Philippe Borges wrote:
>
> > NHP series are high power NIMH (10C) for railway use.
> > NHE serie are high energy NIMH for EV use BUT they are not
> > available anymore
> > and will not be on futur as production line is stopped and
> > fabrication skill
> > for starting it again is lost...
> >
> > The only big size Saft NIMH available is NHP !
> > it cost a premium but you know what you pay for: Saft knowledge and
> > QC !
> >
> > This said i will not chose NIMH for an EV as they are fragile and
> > pricey
> > compared to rugged and affordable STM5 NICAD series.
> > imho there is actually no better commuter oriented EV battery for
> > their
> > usage/cost ratio than their nicad.
> >
> > NIMH from ovonic is (was?) the STM5 killer (look at their
> > impressive results
> > on RAV4 EV) but...i doubt they will let this be available again
> > until they
> > are required to...
> >
> > So we are stuck with lead acid and nicad for few years more...until
> > lithium
> > give better calendar life...
> > though A123 cells are claimed to have 10 years usable life which,
> > for the
> > price, seems more acceptable than max 3-5 years from competitors
> > (li-ion,
> > lipo)
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:56 AM
> > Subject: Re: Large Saft NMH 12/6v
> >
> >
> >> MARK DUTKO wrote:
> >>> Please pardon my battery ignorance. I was wondering the viability of
> >>> these large capacity safts.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks,
> >>>
> >>> Mark
> >>>
> >>> http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/NHP_en.pdf
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> There is also these:
> >>
> >> http://www.saftbatteries.com/130-Catalogue/PDF/NHE_en.pdf
> >>
> >> Since people aren't currently using them, I assume there is a good
> >> reason (cost/availability)...
> >>
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two things come to mine ,,, one with a gas engine you have oil dripping
every where so some of it is going to get on the pilot bearing and keep it
oiled (just a joke ) the other
is that the two shafts ( motor and tranny ) are not in line as bob says ,
. Here is something you can try . Bolt everything together Set your motor so
its drive end is pointing up and the tranny is sitting on top . spin the
motor with a 12v battery , listen to the noise it makes ,,, next take all
the bolts out that hold the adapter plate to the trannny out , and put
smaller ones in and tighten they slightly. Have the bolts lose enough that
you can move the tranny around while it sits on the motor but tight enough
so it won't move on its own. Hook your 12v battery up again and spin it
again . Your bolts will have to be lose enough that you can move the tranny
on the motor by tapping the tranny with a Hammer ( lightly !) Now just
start tapping on one side and another , if things get nosier that tap on the
other side , keep doing this till you find the spot where it makes the least
amount of noise . If you find this makes it runs quieter then before then
you have found your problem . You could clamp or tighten all but one bolt
and re drill it , then move on to the next or maybe use bigger bolts if
possible and drill bigger holes . Be sure you have the clutch disk in the
center . as you get closer to centering you can release the disk and let it
center its self , do this often as you getting things closer to center. I
show how to do this in detail on the how to video at www.grassrootsev.com
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: motor pilot bearing worn
I'd say normal wear and tear, or that there is a
slight angle or offset between the adapter plate and
motor shaft. Even a few thousandths I've been told
can make a difference. That's all I can think of...
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I picked up my motor today.
for $460 got commutator cut and polished, enamel
spray, pilot bearing
replaced, brushes and springs broken in and
installed
So, I hope to remember how it all went back
together.
My question,
WHY would the pilot bearing wear down? The motor
repair guy didn't know
how the EV motor functions, so perhaps one of you
know what I did?
Chevy S10 into manual transmission.
I don't idle the motor.
the worst I can think I do to it are 2 things.
1. start in 2nd gear; and use full acceleration
frequently
2. when I coast to a stop, I will down shift from
3rd to 2nd, and as I let
up the clutch, the motor rev's to a stop
thank you, Ben
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Taken from this page:
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4429/cl3.htm#picture1
Is this basically how you clutchless shift?
How to shift with no clutch pedal
Shifting with the clutchless design is slower than with a clutch. These are
the steps involved:
Release the accelerator pedal
Shift into neutral
Push the gearshift lightly toward the gear you want
Wait for the synchromech in the gear box to either speed up or slow down the
motor until it matches speeds and drops into gear
You may now step on the accelerator pedal again
I usually drive in 2nd and third and do not do much shifting. A shift usually
takes 1-3 seconds. It is odd not having a clutch pedal at first, but it is easy
to get used to. I do not miss it.
So basically the synchromech takes care of everything? Could you use this
method with a gas engine?
- Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for posting this Peter. It is a great deal but the buyer should note
that the batteries are "take outs". they are not new. They state that the
products are "like new". Still a great deal for a small EV project such as a
scooter. The power equivalent would be about that of a 350 watt scooter so
don't be expecting to be going up steep hills.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: " Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 8:59 AM
Subject: EV conversion kit for under $60
Hi Folks,
SInce we have a few newbies I thought I'd post this. I always reccomend
that when experimenting with EVs you start small. It's a lot cheaper that
way and the learnign process is almost the same.
Anyway, I came across this auction on ebay for a complete set for a
scooter/E-bike; batteries, charger, motor, controller, #25 sprocket and
chain.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160054757472
There are only 10 of them, so if you're interested, you better hurry.
P.S. MECI, aka Mendelson's, is a great surplus place to visit if you're
ever in Dayton Ohio. Imagine a warehouse that's three stories tall and
just about fills a city block.
Actually I think it's four stories, but one floor is off limits to
customers, or it was last time I was there.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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legalistic signature is void.
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--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 11/23/2006 8:11:32 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL
PROTECTED]
writes:
> ctor controllers are better!!
> Date:11/23/2006 8:11:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Peter and All,
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: " Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <[email protected]>
> Subject: Contactor controllers
> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:05:44 -0700 (MST)
>
> >Hey folks, I thought I'd interject something here.
> >
> >Since contactor controllers are so simple most people think
> >they will be cheaper than Silicon controllers.
> >
> >If you actually price the cost using new components, you'll
> >probably find out that contactor controllers are as
> >expensive, if not more so, than PWM controllers (contactors
> >aint cheap).
>
> Compared to E controllers they are very cost
> effective. And you are likely to find them surplus or used
> much more easily, cheaply than an E controller will be,
> especially if you need higher amps like 800-1000 where CC
> beat the pants off of e controllers.
> And you forget that to make a E controller work, you
> need 1/2 an CC anyways!! So CC cost is not much more as with
> just 2 more contactors, you could have a 3 speed emergency
> controller.
> Now add to that advantage is the ability of most
> anyone able to repair a CC in about 10 minutes with just a
> few contacts or contactors instead of much money, time
> waiting for a EC repair shop to get to it.
> For my EV a 72vdc/450 amp controller costs about $600
> with all it's other things to, compared to my new surplus
> SW80 Curtis contactors at $13.95 each, gives me 600amps+ for
> under $170 that's easily repairable, reliable, 6 speeds,
> reverse and could work to 96vdc easily also. If it wasn't a
> business prototype, I'd put in a CC in a heartbeat.
> Or with some copper bar, springs, contacts, ect you
> could build a manual CC from scratch for $25-100 in
> materials for 144vdc and 1,000 amps for those who are really
> handy. Can you do that with an EC Peter?
> A 36vdc fork lift CC set will work to 96vdc and put
> out over 1,000 amps, enough for a reasonable EV, many times
> very cheap used from a forklift shop. Make sure you can get
> new contacts for them before you buy.
> But even buying new CC's are 1/2 the price retail of
> an EC but much lower wholesale with much higher power
> outputs on top of lower prices.
> 95% of all successful E vehicles including
> industurals, have used CC, maybe more so it's hard to see
> some people's disdain for them other than controller/gadget
> snobbery.
> While it takes a little adjustment of values to get it
> smooth, they can be as smooth as a reg car without a
> problem.
> With the prices of contactors becoming really cheap,
> 50-75% off when bought in quanity, someone could make decent
> money building CC's for EV's. Or come up with a manual CC
> design like the Milburn or Baker.
> So for all you out there, the CC is a very viable EV
> controller, even better in several ways like cost,
> repairability, for anyone wanting to build a good, cost
> effective EV.
>
> Jerry Dycus
CCs made the early current eliminator dragster run a 11.01 in the qt.mi.I did
however have more driveline repairs back then.Dave Cloud has run CCs in most
of his drag cars at lower voltages,I think we all will see him run very low
10s with less than 100 volts in future nedra races. Dennis
Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yahoo's spam catcher keeps grabbing messages with this header!
----- Original Message ----
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:08:02 AM
Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
Just another random thought: If you used a torque tube, and let the motor pivot
for suspension action, you would get a couple of racing benefits:
The torque tube would double as a torque arm (like on a Camaro). This
pushes the rear axle down towards the ground when accelerating, greatly
improving traction.
You would be reacting the motor torque through the torque tube rather than
the car body. This would help preserve the suspension geometry, and help the
car corner a bit better.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:45:31 AM
Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
Storm Connors wrote:
>> Back in the "olde days" some vehicles used a torque tube so there
>> were no U-joints at all.
Dave Wilker wrote:
> Torque tube driveshafts had u-joints, but just in the front, by the
> transmission output shaft.
Torque tube suspensions either have a single U-joint at the back of the
motor (so the rear axle pivots on a line through the U-joint); or they
rigidly mount the motor to the drive shaft, so axle, shaft, and motor
all bounce up/down together, pivoting at some point on the motor in its
rubber mounts.
Many EVs use torque tube suspension with no U-joints, and with the motor
rigidly attached to the drive shaft. Many golf carts and industrial EVs
do this. So does the Tango, for that matter.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think your browser wants to show the name with the address- like Storm
Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> .If it doesn't have a name it uses the web address.
i.e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> . Is this what you are referring to?
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:21:13 AM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
Hello David,
Ok, but when I get the reply back to me which I sent with the WEB address, I
get the WEB address double up. You say it does not double up when I reply back
to someone. I just have to live with this, because I do not have to open up my
WEB addresses I send and comes back to me.
One time, I got a double up address generate by one person, and the rest of the
WEB addresses were ok.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Use four batteries in your experiment. One with the electrolyte removed and
stored as is.
The other battery has its electrolyte removed, but put in a sugar solution to
coat the plates. You may have to add and remove the solution several times to
build up a hard sugar cabonizing coating.
This is how it was done way back then, when they manufacture the plates. The
grids were pasted with sponge lead and oxide lead mix with a diluted solution
of sulfated acid to make a thick paste.
This action sulphating harding the plates. To reduce this reaction, they
immerse the plates in the sugar solution and put the plates in storage, ship or
ship a assemble battery in a dry state.
The third battery is stored as is, with the electrolyte charge to 100 percent.
The forth battery with the electrolyte, but with a battery maintainer. I use
this method on one of my sports car which I put in storage. The car was put
in a foam box, seal with plastic, vacuum, put in a plywood box, seal with
plastic again, cover with a heavy canvas and than tape on layers of cardboard,
then put in a large steel container. I ran a cord out, so I can plug it in.
This was done in 1973 and I open it up in 2004 to sell to a friend of my who
does all my body work.
The battery which was a Sears Diehard marine deep cycle, crank and crank and
crank the engine and it started. The body shop guy, has been now painting this
car for two years now and stills has the existing battery in it.
This makes this battery 33 years old!
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:46 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
Well, you could probably get results a lot faster if you tested them as
you suggested they be used. I.e. Remove the plates (and allow them to
dry) and then install the plates, daily.
> Hi Peter,
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>>Well I could point out a hundred sites that all say it's bad to expose
>> the
>>plates to air. But you'll just point out that they are all battery
>>dealers/manufacturers and go with your conspiracy theory.
>>
>>I'd suggest you run an experiement and test your theory.
>>
>>
>>
> I didn't mean for it to come off conspiracy-theory-ish; it would
> have been prudent to leave off my last point. My first point should
> still stand: in every non-EV situation I can think of, there'd be no
> advantage to having removing plates. No one could give a better reason
> why they don't exist.
>
> If my theory is true, storing batteries without acid would give them
> longer life. Hmm... Look up dry-charged batteries. It appears they are
> fully charged before the electrolyte is removed and last at least 12
> months (versus 3 for an unmaintained wet cell), but they are sealed
> while in storage. So would the plates have to stay sealed inside the
> cell whenever they're out of the water? Hmm...
>
> I'll take a battery company's word if they say removing plates once
> a battery is manufactured damages them. I'll believe a university
> professor, IEEE, a materials science publication, or anything along
> those lines. Bonus points if they explain why, because I'm curious. Then
> I won't have to wonder if it would work anymore.
>
> I'll run an experiment, but I won't get any results back for many
> years (unless it fails quickly). I have some used SLI bats. I'll charge
> them then measure the CA, drain the acid from each cell and store it,
> wait a month, refill it, and measure again. If exposure to the air kills
> the plates quickly, the CA should be minuscule. Barring that, in order
> to validate my theory, I will still need to wait until the battery is
> around 14 years old and then test the CA. At that age, any other battery
> would be completely corroded (right?). In seven years, I'll let you
> know...
>
> Cory Cross
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My old porsche 924 had a torque tube and solid drive shaft ( looked like
about 7/8 inch ) and no u joints at all , the tube was pretty heavy and
there where bearing in it . It also had independet rear suspition so when
the wheels went up or down the motor didn't have to move .
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:08 AM
Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
Just another random thought: If you used a torque tube, and let the motor
pivot for suspension action, you would get a couple of racing benefits:
The torque tube would double as a torque arm (like on a Camaro). This
pushes the rear axle down towards the ground when accelerating, greatly
improving traction.
You would be reacting the motor torque through the torque tube rather
than the car body. This would help preserve the suspension geometry, and
help the car corner a bit better.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:45:31 AM
Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
Storm Connors wrote:
Back in the "olde days" some vehicles used a torque tube so there
were no U-joints at all.
Dave Wilker wrote:
Torque tube driveshafts had u-joints, but just in the front, by the
transmission output shaft.
Torque tube suspensions either have a single U-joint at the back of the
motor (so the rear axle pivots on a line through the U-joint); or they
rigidly mount the motor to the drive shaft, so axle, shaft, and motor
all bounce up/down together, pivoting at some point on the motor in its
rubber mounts.
Many EVs use torque tube suspension with no U-joints, and with the motor
rigidly attached to the drive shaft. Many golf carts and industrial EVs
do this. So does the Tango, for that matter.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Peter,
Ok, I will send you a WEB address. It may not double up at your end, but when
you I received it back in a reply, I may get it double up, meaning it will
print the WEB address that looks like:
http://www.andersonpower.com<http://www.andersonpower.com/>
http://www.andersonpower.com<http://www.andersonpower.com/>
I type the above in a double up sample.
Now I will type it as a normal address:
http://www.andersonpower.com<http://www.andersonpower.com/>
If you reply and I received this Email with this WEB on it, it may or may not
double up on me.
Lets see what's happens.
If it does, then I will reply again, where you can see the last address has
double.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
Just out of curiousity, what do you mean by double up? Can you send in an
example?
> Hello David,
>
> Ok, but when I get the reply back to me which I sent with the WEB address,
> I get the WEB address double up. You say it does not double up when I
> reply back to someone. I just have to live with this, because I do not
> have to open up my WEB addresses I send and comes back to me.
>
> One time, I got a double up address generate by one person, and the rest
> of the WEB addresses were ok.
>
> Roland
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just received the reply, so I will reply it again, and see how it looks now.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Roland Wiench<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:21 AM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
Hello Peter,
Ok, I will send you a WEB address. It may not double up at your end, but
when you I received it back in a reply, I may get it double up, meaning it will
print the WEB address that looks like:
http://www.andersonpower.com<http://www.andersonpower.com/<http://www.andersonpower.com%3chttp//www.andersonpower.com/>>
http://www.andersonpower.com<http://www.andersonpower.com/<http://www.andersonpower.com%3chttp//www.andersonpower.com/>>
I type the above in a double up sample.
Now I will type it as a normal address:
http://www.andersonpower.com<http://www.andersonpower.com/<http://www.andersonpower.com%3chttp//www.andersonpower.com/>>
If you reply and I received this Email with this WEB on it, it may or may not
double up on me.
Lets see what's happens.
If it does, then I will reply again, where you can see the last address has
double.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter VanDerWal<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]:[email protected]>>
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:50 PM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
Just out of curiousity, what do you mean by double up? Can you send in an
example?
> Hello David,
>
> Ok, but when I get the reply back to me which I sent with the WEB address,
> I get the WEB address double up. You say it does not double up when I
> reply back to someone. I just have to live with this, because I do not
> have to open up my WEB addresses I send and comes back to me.
>
> One time, I got a double up address generate by one person, and the rest
> of the WEB addresses were ok.
>
> Roland
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Storm,
I just sent a sample of a web address that double up on me when I received one
of my replies back to me.
I type the WEB address exactly as is.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Storm Connors<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
I think your browser wants to show the name with the address- like Storm
Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> If it doesn't have a name
it uses the web address. i.e. [EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> . Is this what you are referring
to?
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:21:13 AM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
Hello David,
Ok, but when I get the reply back to me which I sent with the WEB address, I
get the WEB address double up. You say it does not double up when I reply back
to someone. I just have to live with this, because I do not have to open up my
WEB addresses I send and comes back to me.
One time, I got a double up address generate by one person, and the rest of
the WEB addresses were ok.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
I had the same vibration from a flywheel maybe a little bit warped on my 79
LeCar (16xT105, Curtis 400A, stock Prestolite MTA-4001 with 10 degree
advanced timing) - very aggravating. So, I was thinking, why do we use
clutches anyway with electric motors and PWM controllers? I can see how they
might be needed for parking using contactors, but with controllers ....?
Pulled the motor, threw away the pressure plate, throwout bearing, clutch
disk, flywheel, taper adapter - about 22 lbs of steel - big inertial drag at
startup and slowdown, huge pile of angular momentum.
Replaced it with a ~1 lb adapter made from 2" steel bar. We bored it through
to fit the motor shaft 1.125", cut a keyway and put in some headless set
screws. On the other end, turned the splined hub from the clutch disk to the
same 1.125 diameter, cut some chamfers for weld bead, pressed it into the
adapter and welded it all around , then faced it off on a mill. This hooks
the motor to the splined trans shaft. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/727
some pictures here, contact me off list if you want to see some more
pictures or details or to have an adapter made.
OK, the results - it is a lot faster off the line, especially the 0-10 mph,
slows down sooner when you are coasting to traffic lights (saves braking),
and SHIFTS LIKE A DREAM. I mean, it just flops into gear, the synchronizers
have so much less mass to slow down. Upshifts in 1 second, downshifts in 2
seconds. Much peppier. And NO VIBRATION.
So, someone tell me, why not clutchless for everyone?
Jay
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 1:03 AM
> Subject: Motor Vibration
>
>
> > I have been trying to track down the source of a vibration I believe
> > is coming from my 8" ADC Motor. The vibration starts around 3k RPMS
> > and happens in all gears. I have had my flywheel zero balanced, and
> > have a new pressure plate and clutch.
-------
> > So, my question is, could this cause the vibration, or is there
> > potential for error in my measurements?
> >
> > Any suggestions? Can this be fixed? Is this normal?
> >
> > Chris Sutton
> > Seattle, WA
> >
> > Hi Chris;
>
> I went through this opera for years, on my Rabbit!Thought it was my
> tranny, flywheel, just lived with it til it got as loud as a Diseasel
> Rabbit. Would change out the tranny, no fix. My motor bearings would wear
> out in 30k miles, all that. So I FINALLY had the 12 lb Rabbit flywheel
> machined down to 6 lbs, who NEEDS a ring gear in an EV, anyhow? The
> machinist an' I watched POUNDS of scrap steel peel away, very gratifying!
> After all this, new motor bearings, comm cut and polished,a stronger
> pressure plate, and disc, put the whole assembly together. The motor
> armature,the taper lock, flywheel, and pressure plate TOGETHER as it would
> be in the car. Schlepped it down to a gas rig speed shop. Gas guyz run at
> higher speeds than we, I mean RACING gas stuff.He set it up, in a thing a
> crankshaft just came out of. Spun it up to whatEVer it took to get a
balance
> reading. IT WAS out of balance when it was asssembled. The motor armature
> was OK by itself, the Warfield folks took care of that, already. But when
ya
> put all this scrap iron together it sure as hell isn't!Yeah I had a bit of
> runout, too, like you, but I let the guy just BALANCE the whole thing as
it
> would live in the car.
>
> Results, WOW! Glass smooth the stuff EV grins are made of. Instant
> throttle response! Lay rubber in second just by flooring it! John Wayland
> did! We would still be honeymooning had I not wrecked it towing it home
from
> Joliet.The lightened flywheel makes a differance. Probably woulda torn up
> the tranny by now<g>?
>
> So,.....bottom line; Balance EVerything ,put together, oh, don't put
the
> clutch disc in while doing this, because you will NEVER get it
centered!!It
> will center when you put the thing together , when you re install the
motor.
>
> Happy smooooth motoring!
>
> Bob
--- End Message ---
