EV Digest 6165
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV conversion kit for under $60
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Double of WEB addresses
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Contactor controllers are better!!
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Clutchless shifting
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Don's 13 inch net gain
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Double of WEB addresses
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
by "Michael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: "Who Killed the Electric Car" at Safeway
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) The Downside of driving an EV
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Charging in 1910 (was: RE: [EV] David problem with email)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Contactor controllers are better!!
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Clutchless shifting
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Temperature Correction for State Of Charge Voltage?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: The Downside of driving an EV
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Clutchless shifting
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) New Direction for GM: "Think EV-2" ?!?
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Actually that controller uses a magnetic hall effect type of throttle. We
sell them for $19.95, our item number PB5225.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 11:07 AM
Subject: RE: EV conversion kit for under $60
Note that no throttle is included, you still need
to add that 5 kOhm potmeter and hook it up or
(as this aution states) use the supplied parts
as replacements for a failed eBike or scooter.
Or find a throttle from someone that replaced it,
I think I have a spare throttle that came with my
eBike in the garage. Not sure if the connectors
would match this controller - it looks as if it
has 5 connectors.
The first 3 are easy:
- motor
- throttle
- battery
The other 2 may include a safety switch
(stop if there is no pressure on the footrest,
because likely the person fell off the scooter)
and the charger input?
(My charger plugs straight into the battery,
so I am not sure if that would apply here too)
The only other thing I can think of is a
"State of Charge" display.
Note that the battery wires are snipped, so that
connector is also missing.
I think the largest challenge with this kit
(after finding and installing a matching wheel
sprocket) will be finding and installing the
right connectors, or to snip connectors off the
controller and still connect all wires in the
right places.
It seems as the kit comes with a wiring diagram,
so if you are comfortable with that and document
all wires where you removed connectors, then this
kit may be good for you.
(The above description not to scare anyone away,
but to give you an idea as to what you are getting
so to avoid disappointment AFTER the sale.)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:00 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: EV conversion kit for under $60
Hi Folks,
SInce we have a few newbies I thought I'd post this. I always reccomend
that when experimenting with EVs you start small. It's a lot cheaper that
way and the learnign process is almost the same.
Anyway, I came across this auction on ebay for a complete set for a
scooter/E-bike; batteries, charger, motor, controller, #25 sprocket and
chain.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160054757472
There are only 10 of them, so if you're interested, you better hurry.
P.S. MECI, aka Mendelson's, is a great surplus place to visit if you're
ever in Dayton Ohio. Imagine a warehouse that's three stories tall and
just about fills a city block.
Actually I think it's four stories, but one floor is off limits to
customers, or it was last time I was there.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I received this as you describe - each address printed twice. But that is
of no consequence. I can double-click either one, and my browser opens with
the correct address. It is only an appearance issue, nothing to worry
about.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I fully agree on contactor controllers being very
easy to work with, user-repairable and all, even
the suggestion to install it as the "limp home"
method in case the electronic controller fails
made me chalk one more item up for my own conversion
as I like this idea - in particular if one has the
idea to fool around with building one's own electronic
controller, is this a valuable safety net.
However, keep in mind that an electronic controller
will give you current multiplication that helps you
to keep the battery current down on every take-off,
while the contactor controller will require full
motor current to come from the batteries.
This will always hurt your range.
If range is not your concern, then the CC is as good
as any controller for you.
If you worry about range (and about keeping battery
amps low for long life and range) and in particular
if you have many traffic lights or stop signs on your
route, then an electronic controller has a big advantage.
To be completely honest, there is a slight disadvantage
to most electronic controllers (and the reason they
need cooling) in that they drop a few volts under load.
This often only accounts for 1 or 2% of the total power
delivered, but if you drive full throttle all of your
trip, then the CC has this 1 or 2% higher efficiency
by avoiding the drop in voltage. It is irrelevant for
most people, because the traffic does not allow you to
drive that way that you use this efficiency difference.
Only on the drag strip can a "bypass" contactor give a
slight boost to the end game.
The other side of the story - the CC needs a start-up
resistor to avoid a jerky start from the line. This also
accounts for inefficiency and a large component that
gets very warm - something to be aware of while giving
it a place under the hood, or you end up scorching the
wiring if that happens to run nearby.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 5:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
In a message dated 11/23/2006 8:11:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
> ctor controllers are better!!
> Date:11/23/2006 8:11:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
>
> Hi Peter and All,
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: " Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <[email protected]>
> Subject: Contactor controllers
> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:05:44 -0700 (MST)
>
> >Hey folks, I thought I'd interject something here.
> >
> >Since contactor controllers are so simple most people think
> >they will be cheaper than Silicon controllers.
> >
> >If you actually price the cost using new components, you'll
> >probably find out that contactor controllers are as
> >expensive, if not more so, than PWM controllers (contactors
> >aint cheap).
>
> Compared to E controllers they are very cost
> effective. And you are likely to find them surplus or used
> much more easily, cheaply than an E controller will be,
> especially if you need higher amps like 800-1000 where CC
> beat the pants off of e controllers.
> And you forget that to make a E controller work, you
> need 1/2 an CC anyways!! So CC cost is not much more as with
> just 2 more contactors, you could have a 3 speed emergency
> controller.
> Now add to that advantage is the ability of most
> anyone able to repair a CC in about 10 minutes with just a
> few contacts or contactors instead of much money, time
> waiting for a EC repair shop to get to it.
> For my EV a 72vdc/450 amp controller costs about $600
> with all it's other things to, compared to my new surplus
> SW80 Curtis contactors at $13.95 each, gives me 600amps+ for
> under $170 that's easily repairable, reliable, 6 speeds,
> reverse and could work to 96vdc easily also. If it wasn't a
> business prototype, I'd put in a CC in a heartbeat.
> Or with some copper bar, springs, contacts, ect you
> could build a manual CC from scratch for $25-100 in
> materials for 144vdc and 1,000 amps for those who are really
> handy. Can you do that with an EC Peter?
> A 36vdc fork lift CC set will work to 96vdc and put
> out over 1,000 amps, enough for a reasonable EV, many times
> very cheap used from a forklift shop. Make sure you can get
> new contacts for them before you buy.
> But even buying new CC's are 1/2 the price retail of
> an EC but much lower wholesale with much higher power
> outputs on top of lower prices.
> 95% of all successful E vehicles including
> industurals, have used CC, maybe more so it's hard to see
> some people's disdain for them other than controller/gadget
> snobbery.
> While it takes a little adjustment of values to get it
> smooth, they can be as smooth as a reg car without a
> problem.
> With the prices of contactors becoming really cheap,
> 50-75% off when bought in quanity, someone could make decent
> money building CC's for EV's. Or come up with a manual CC
> design like the Milburn or Baker.
> So for all you out there, the CC is a very viable EV
> controller, even better in several ways like cost,
> repairability, for anyone wanting to build a good, cost
> effective EV.
>
> Jerry Dycus
CCs made the early current eliminator dragster run a 11.01 in the qt.mi.I
did
however have more driveline repairs back then.Dave Cloud has run CCs in most
of his drag cars at lower voltages,I think we all will see him run very low
10s with less than 100 volts in future nedra races. Dennis
Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hays kirjoitti 24.11.2006 kello 19.19:
Air and electric shifters on drag racers work with
no clutch (beyond getting going the first time).
When you hit the shift button it kills the ignition
for just a blink, which unloads the tranny. Then
the solenoid or actuator fires and shoots the
tranny into the next gear up.
Seems like the far lower rotating mass of an
electric motor would make this a breeze.
There has been discussions before about clutchless shifting by
adjusting motor rpm electronically during shifting to match tranny
rpm. Lee Hart even presented an ASCII schematic for it.
terveisin Osmo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 1915-1924 Milburns Light Electrics connected the motor via torque tube
to the diff (many other electric contemporaries were similar---Detroit, R&L,
Waverley...). The internal shaft I believe is direct to worm gear drive and
w/o U-joints....though it's under 2ft or so long and motor delivers about
10Hp max. Front of motor is suspended by ball-joint.
The 1911-1919 Hupp-Yeats Electrics was unique with its motor directly
attached to the differential drive via pinion and bevel gear drive. Front
of motor suspended by ball joint.
Seems if you have room for a motor towards the rear, similar non-u-joint
direct connections could be done for modern conversions, eliminating the
torque transfer thru the body. Perhaps a benefit for those cranking huge
torques.
-MT
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Dave Wilker
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:00 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
>
>
> True, but you would also be introducing an eccentric action into
> the mix, by
> only using one u-joint. The output shaft of the tranny and the
> input shaft
> of the differential would not be parallel, which will cause the
> prop shaft
> to speed up and slow down every 90 degrees.
>
>
>
> David C. Wilker Jr.
> USAF (RET)
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Dymaxion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 11:08 PM
> Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
>
>
> > Just another random thought: If you used a torque tube, and let
> the motor
> > pivot for suspension action, you would get a couple of racing benefits:
> >
> > The torque tube would double as a torque arm (like on a
> Camaro). This
> > pushes the rear axle down towards the ground when accelerating, greatly
> > improving traction.
> >
> > You would be reacting the motor torque through the torque
> tube rather
> > than the car body. This would help preserve the suspension
> geometry, and
> > help the car corner a bit better.
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: [email protected]
> > Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:45:31 AM
> > Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
> >
> > Storm Connors wrote:
> >>> Back in the "olde days" some vehicles used a torque tube so there
> >>> were no U-joints at all.
> >
> > Dave Wilker wrote:
> >> Torque tube driveshafts had u-joints, but just in the front, by the
> >> transmission output shaft.
> >
> > Torque tube suspensions either have a single U-joint at the back of the
> > motor (so the rear axle pivots on a line through the U-joint); or they
> > rigidly mount the motor to the drive shaft, so axle, shaft, and motor
> > all bounce up/down together, pivoting at some point on the motor in its
> > rubber mounts.
> >
> > Many EVs use torque tube suspension with no U-joints, and with the motor
> > rigidly attached to the drive shaft. Many golf carts and industrial EVs
> > do this. So does the Tango, for that matter.
> > --
> > "Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
> > citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> > has!" -- Margaret Mead
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> __________________________________________________________________
> __________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David,
I was on line with MSN for over a hour. They transfer me from one person to
the next to the next to the next. My MSN Explorer was auto updated and for some
reason it did not defaulted correctly. So they have me press Control, Shift,
F11, right shift Start, Home, go on line, right click this and that, change the
name of folders and back again, wait a hour, turn off computer, turn it back
again and then send a WEB address to myself and it still did not work.
I going to just leave it as the way it is.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
I received this as you describe - each address printed twice. But that is
of no consequence. I can double-click either one, and my browser opens with
the correct address. It is only an appearance issue, nothing to worry
about.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Well, I have to respond to a couple of points.
1) The LeCar keeps up with traffic just fine for commutes and errands around
town and that is all I have in mind (or want to pay for). I hardly ever take
it on the freeway since I think it is too small for safety with all the
cellphone talking Yukons out there. I suspect there are a lot on the list
who are driving these for transportation alone without wanting to pay for
entertainment value.
Sure, if you want "neck-snapping acceleration that barks the tires and
presses you back into the seat" you are going to want a clutch and several
thousand dollars of batteries and all the other expensive requirements of
this type of EV. Perhaps someone of this interest will race them so that
sponsors will supply a lot of these parts.
2) But I take exception to the characterization of the shift. I shifted it
exclusively without using the clutch ever since I owned it before removing
the clutch and flywheel, and it followed the tedious description that you
mention. Took about 3 seconds for the clutch/flywheel to slow down enough to
allow the synchronizers to pull it in. It was a pain in the ass. And no
doubt hard on the synchronizers.
Once the clutch/flywheel was removed completely, the shift is just a whole
different animal, effortless, it just falls into place, no wait at all,
immediately pops in. Since I only shift once from 1st at 35 mph to 2nd which
is good to 57 mph, this is totally sufficient.
Has anyone ever driven one that doesn't use a clutch nor flywheel? I was
totally surprised by the ease of the shift. Lot of angular momentum in the
22 lb of steel removed from the clutch and flywheel and coupling.
Jay
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
> Hello to All,
>
> I hope all who celebrate it, had a wonderful and fulfilling Thanksgiving!
> OK, now on to make take on going clutchless....
>
> Jay Caplan wrote:
>
> >I was thinking, why do we use
> >clutches anyway with electric motors and PWM controllers?
> >
>
> Short answer...to keep the car pleasant and fun to drive! This is
> especially true if your EV is a higher performance type that has enough
> power to run 0-60 in the 6-7 second range (or even quicker). Having a
> beefy clutch mated to a machined-down lightened flywheel and feeding a
> 4, 5, or 6 speed tranny allows one to power-shift on the 1-2 up-shift
> and the 2-3 up-shift in a swift fashion resulting in neck-snapping
> acceleration that barks the tires and presses you back into the seat.
> Try that in a clutchless affair and you'll either not be able to get the
> gear change accomplished, or you will get it done after a full second or
> two accompanied by grinding gear teeth. A fun and smooth experience,
> this is not!
>
> From Tony Hwang:
>
> Shifting with the clutchless design is slower than with a clutch. These
are the steps involved:
>
>
> Release the accelerator pedal
> Shift into neutral
> Push the gearshift lightly toward the gear you want
> Wait for the synchromech in the gear box to either speed up or slow
down the motor
> until it matches speeds and drops into gear
> You may now step on the accelerator pedal again
>
>
> Yeah, this is pretty accurate. When in my EV formative years way back in
> the electric car dark ages of 1980, I tried this method with my 48V
> contactor controlled 4 speed Datsun. It 'worked', but it was anything
> but elegant. Shifting was exactly as Tony has described.
>
> If one never drives their EV in a spirited manor, and instead of a fun
> playmate your vehicle is merely an appliance to get you from point A to
> point B, and if you don't care about having to follow a 'procedure' in
> order to change gears without forcing things, going clutchless can work
> for you. I imagine the type that accepts a whining, under-powered lower
> tech Curtis 1231C controller, or a crude contactor rectactor type
> jerking controller, an over-weight heavy pack of oozing, corrosion
> producing wet cells mandating 3000+ lbs. of weight in a smaller sized
> car, and 0-60 in 17-20 seconds as being OK, wouldn't mind the
> clutchless shifting thing at all.
>
> For the others out there (what I call the new breed of EVers) who want
> their EV to look good, handle good, and perform well, none of the above
> is acceptable. These are the type that want a silent and powerful Zilla
> or DC Power systems controller, the type that would never accept
> fizzling acid spraying wet cell batteries and prefer maintenance-free
> powerful 12V AGMs like Hawkers, Optimas and Orbitals, the type that want
> their EV to be at least as snappy as it was a gas car, the type that
> would spend money on a hot sound system, the type that care about the
> condition of the body and interior, and yes, the type that wants to have
> a little fun and passion thrown into the design of their EV!
>
> More from Jay Caplan:
>
> >SHIFTS LIKE A DREAM. Upshifts in 1 second, downshifts in 2
> >seconds. Much peppier. And NO VIBRATION.
> >
> >
>
> Your 3000+ lb. Renault LeCar's 96V worth of wet cells will sag to 85V at
> the 400 amps your Curtis controller can handle, making just 34 kw, which
> translates to about 40 hp. In such a heavy little car, this comes out to
> a 0-60 time in the 20 second range and puts you into the first category
> of EVer I've outlined above. If you accept this type of machine, of
> course losing another 2 seconds in the two up-shifts on your way to 60
> mph won't bother you. If you're already waiting a l-o-n-g third of a
> minute to get up to highway speeds is OK, what's another 2 seconds?
>
> >So, someone tell me, why not clutchless for everyone?
> >
> >
> Because thankfully, the majority of folks who drive and are currently
> converting cars to electric power don't consider this type of
> restrictive performance and crude levels of the driving experience
> acceptable.
>
> As to your before and after descriptions for 'your' car, I can see why
> for you, it seems to be an improvement. Before going clutchless you
> evidently had vibration issues. However, these could have been solved by
> a well machined adapter set and lightened flywheel that would have
> produced turbine-smooth results. Of course, this method is a lot more
> costly. You say its 0-10 mph acceleration is improved by not having to
> spool up the flywheel...I would agree with your assessment. With a scant
> 40 hp to work with, 'anything' to reduce the initial work load would be
> welcome. On the other hand, if your EV had adequate power for its
> current weight, say 150 hp instead of a mere 40 hp, the difference
> between spinning up a lightened flywheel or not would be imperceptible.
> Having the ability to properly shift with a clutch with this level of
> ample power would however, eclipse the fractional increase you notice in
> the 0-10 mph range with a sizzling 0-60 in the same time it takes your
> current setup to hit 20 mph.
>
> I don't mean to sound discouraging, but when I hear a question like 'why
> not clutchless for everyone?', tied in with a sluggish older tech EV
> design like a 96V, 40 hp 3000 lb. LeCar, I feel the need to respond.
>
> I'd modify your statement by framing the comment like this... For those
> with lower voltage, lower powered, lower performing, heavy range
> oriented EVs, why not clutchless for everyone? At least in this context,
> you'll be addressing others with similar electric vehicles who might
> just take your idea to heart, not the EV community as a whole. When the
> type of EV you have forces you to drive in the slow lane, forces you to
> pull to the right to let others get around you on hills, and in general
> doesn't even hint at performance, the additional performance hit of
> taking a bit more time to do an up-shift and taking even more time to do
> a down-shift isn't any big deal.
>
> I can tell you that for today's EV conversions that have modern gas car
> type performance and use a manual tranny, doing it without the ability
> to smoothly shift is totally unacceptable.
>
> See Ya.....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So, someone tell me, why not clutchless for everyone?
> Jay
I would assume it's for the same reason ICE have clutches, instead of just
a larger starter motor.
One of my cars sat during the winter & the clutch froze up. When you need
transportation, you make do... so, I know it is possible to use an ICE
clutchless. <g> Just sorta a PITA.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Is this movie available at your local Safeway?
> Inquiring minds would like to know.
> Roderick Wilde
I didn't check Safeway, but there was a whole row or two of WKTEC DVDs at
Hollywood Video this past week.
-MT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The local police decided my ICE car parked in front of my house was
abandoned and towed it at 9:30PM on Thanksgiving! While I was in the
house. They want hundreds to give it back. Ironically, the plan for this
first day off of work in a long while, was to buy a tire for the thing
so I could go to Jury duty on monday.
I guess cops need xmas bonuses too. :-(
--- End Message ---
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Regarding charging and control in 1910, Lee argued:
>> Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
> >> Anyway in 1910 they recharged the car batteries by using
> >> an AC motor hooked to the wall to turn a dc charger.
>
> In 1910, DC power was as about as common as AC power. There was no
> national grid; each city had its own independent system. Many small
> towns had no electric service at all.
True.
> So, EV chargers were generally a motor-generator set. The motor was
> usually a universal motor, which ran on either AC or DC. Charge control
> was by field control of the generator.
Yes, mtr-gen chargers were very common.
I don't know that an AC/DC universal motor was "usual" in 1910.
>From what I read in AUTOMOBILE in 1912, EV motor-gen chargers often used AC
motors. Common were the integral motor-gen options, e.g.: Wagner rotary
converter (w/AC motor) or the GE motor-gen set (w/single or 3-phase AC
motor). Also, a variety of externally coupled motor/gen combinations
including the Lincoln motor-generator set (which may well have used a
Universal AC/DC motor).
> >> Another method was a mercury gas rectifier.
>
> These came along a bit later, after the power grid had standardized on
> AC, so transformer-rectifier chargers became possible.
>From the literature, mercury gas rectifier chargers WERE available for use
to charge EVs for "nearly 10 years" before 1912, i.e. as early as 1903 and
the number had grown in use each year since. Mercury arc rectifier chargers
were in "constantly increasing demand" in AC markets for reasons of "high
efficiency, absence of moving parts requiring oil and grease, and lack of
vibration". It was the "cheapest reliable device for charging". So I
wouldn't say these came a bit later. If you could afford the nearly $2k for
an EV in 1910 and you had AC available, you could certainly buy a mercury
arc rectifier charger for it.
> > And speed wad controller with resistors?
>
> Mainly for starting; once moving, they controlled speed by switching the
> batteries in various series/parallel combinations, and with motor field
> control.
This isn't accurate Lee.
Few, if any, early electrics used resistor control for startup only.
If so, you'd expect to see resistor panels with only a single resistor or
maybe 2.
Perhaps for the compound wound motor electrics, but certainly not for the
series wound motors which were very common. Even the several thousand
1915-1924 Milburns ALL used 4 resistor coils for speed changing.
Use of the resistors did not end with vehicle motion.
Battery configurations were indeed switched from parallel to series for
higher speeds, and especially when shifting from 2nd speed (half pack) to
3rd speed (full pack), a series resistor coil was common for giving smooth
torque change and speed increase from 2nd speed. In some EVs (e.g. the
Detroit), a 5th speed was implemented using field weakening, again, using a
resistor.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
Quoted Source: Jan. 2, 1913 article in AUTOMOBILE entitled:
"Motor-Generators and Rectifiers", subtitled: "Enable Private Owners of
Electrics to Charge Batteries at Home from Alternating Current Mains: Are
Also Used in the Public Garage".
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From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Contactor controllers are better!!
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:51:26 -0800
I fully agree on contactor controllers being very
easy to work with, user-repairable and all, even
the suggestion to install it as the "limp home"
method in case the electronic controller fails
made me chalk one more item up for my own conversion
as I like this idea - in particular if one has the
idea to fool around with building one's own electronic
controller, is this a valuable safety net.
However, keep in mind that an electronic controller
will give you current multiplication that helps you
to keep the battery current down on every take-off,
while the contactor controller will require full
motor current to come from the batteries.
This isn't generally true with contactor controllers ( except the most
primitive)
A friend of mine had CitiCar a few years ago. I believe that it's
controller was typical for a contactor controller.
That controller had three steps ( the accelerator pedal had three
microswitches) :
1. ( start-up) Two halves of the pack were paralleled, and connected to the
motor through a series resistor. This served to limit the startup current (
although was obviously inefficient due to resistor losses)
2. Low - Two halves of the pack were paralleled and connected directly to
the motor.
3. High - The entire pack was connected in series, and directly connected
to the motor.
In his case, he had 8 6V GC batteries ( 48 V pack) . For steps 1 and 2, he
effectively had two 24V packs in parallel. That means that he had a current
multiplier of 2X ( twice the current through the motor compared to the
current through each battery)
. So, you normally can get SOME current multiplication with a contactor
controller.
If you had LOTS of contactors, you could conceivably divide the pack into
four sections, so that, at startup, you had a current multiplier of four.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
Stay up-to-date with your friends through the Windows Live Spaces friends
list.
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://spaces.live.com/spacesapi.aspx?wx_action=create&wx_url=/friends.aspx&mk
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..."The difference here is that instead of letting your
synchro spin up an electric motor, you have to
develop a feel for matching engine speed to
tranny speed with the accelerator."...
Please people. Do not try this with your EV! (unless you have a lot of
stuff attached to the aux shaft and have rpm limiters in your
controller. And are naturally lucky.)
If you tap the accelerator you can over speed and destroy the comm in a
fraction of a second. There is no drag, not compression, alternator or
power steering You cannot necessarily hear this rpm change, the
exploding comm will be the first and last thing you hear (except the
explicatives)
Trust me : http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/ouch/Blown+Commutators/
This happened during a shift and I did complete the shift!, just the
darn throttle cable stuck a little during the shift.
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Cor van de Water wrote:
> I always heard that hotter batteries have lower voltage,
> the temp compensation needs to be negative.
For charging, you need a negative temperature coefficient of -2.5 to -5
millivolts per deg.C.
The open-circuit voltage (zero current) temperature coefficient is
almost zero; a lead-acid battery's voltage won't change as its
temperature changes over a wide range. (Try putting a battery in the
freezer, or sit it in a warm place, and measure it).
Under load, the voltage will *rise* as the battery gets hotter. This
happens because the internal resistance falls, reducing the load-induced
voltage drop.
> That is also my experience in measuring battery voltage after
> charging - my AGMs can be as high as 13.25V hours after their
> charging, but this surface charge disappears quickly after a
> little load has been applied.
The "surface charge" is a different effect. It says a battery's voltage
immediately after charging is artificially high. It will fall
(regardless of temperature) over the day or so after being removed from
charge.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Offgrid Engineering wrote:
> We are a high school student team who is building a car to compete
> in a solar car drag race. The power is supplied only by solar, no
> energy storage is allowed.
OK; that means your motor/transmission system operates at a fixed power
level throughout the race (constant horsepower).
> We are in need of a motor. Electric power available = about 2000w
> at Vmp = 56VDC.
OK; that suggests picking a motor that has its peak efficiency at 2000w
and 56v. A PM DC motor can readily do this.
> Gearing on car will be used if needed, depending on motor torque,
> rpm (CVT possible but simple bike gearing for simplicity is preferred)
Here's an idea that worked great on small solar cars. Paul Compton came
up with it.
Put a spool on the motor, and another larger on a wheel's axle. Wind a
metal band or wire on the large spool. Connect the free end to the small
spool on the motor.
When you first power the motor, you have in effect a large pulley on the
wheel, and a small one on the wheel; thus, you have a low "gear" to
produce high torque to get started quickly.
As the car moves down the track, the wire winds from the wheel to the
motor spool. This changes the effective diameter, so you have a CVT that
automatically shifts to a higher "gear" as you go.
By experimenting with the spool sizes and amount of wire on them, you
can get any desired ratio at start and finish.
If the race is long enough for the car to reach terminal velocity,
include a chain drive with a clutch in parallel with the cable/pulley
transmission. When the last of the wire unwinds from the wheel spool,
connect the chain drive's clutch and finish at constant speed (limited
by the solar power available).
Such a setup should be very simple, very efficient, and with some
experimentation, able to keep the motor right near its most efficient
rpm throughout the run.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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towing without notice is illegal
you can argue that a good faith effort was not made to contact the car's
owner (easily proven if you've got some proof you were home at the time it
was towed) and you are not responsible for illegal impoundment/storage
charges
I don't know what local laws/rules you have that may override that though...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:12 PM
Subject: The Downside of driving an EV
The local police decided my ICE car parked in front of my house was
abandoned and towed it at 9:30PM on Thanksgiving! While I was in the
house. They want hundreds to give it back. Ironically, the plan for this
first day off of work in a long while, was to buy a tire for the thing
so I could go to Jury duty on monday.
I guess cops need xmas bonuses too. :-(
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Would this not be more difficult to control with a larger motor? A
liitle clutch resistance could slow it down, even more so on a small
motor but needed more with a large one.
Mark
On Nov 24, 2006, at 1:28 PM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
..."The difference here is that instead of letting your
synchro spin up an electric motor, you have to
develop a feel for matching engine speed to
tranny speed with the accelerator."...
Please people. Do not try this with your EV! (unless you have a lot of
stuff attached to the aux shaft and have rpm limiters in your
controller. And are naturally lucky.)
If you tap the accelerator you can over speed and destroy the comm
in a
fraction of a second. There is no drag, not compression, alternator or
power steering You cannot necessarily hear this rpm change, the
exploding comm will be the first and last thing you hear (except the
explicatives)
Trust me : http://hitorqueelectric.com/gallery/v/ouch/Blown
+Commutators/
This happened during a shift and I did complete the shift!, just the
darn throttle cable stuck a little during the shift.
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hehe, probably thinks it's a penis enlargement spam :op
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:38 AM
Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
Yahoo's spam catcher keeps grabbing messages with this header!
----- Original Message ----
From: David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 2:08:02 AM
Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
Just another random thought: If you used a torque tube, and let the motor
pivot for suspension action, you would get a couple of racing benefits:
The torque tube would double as a torque arm (like on a Camaro). This
pushes the rear axle down towards the ground when accelerating, greatly
improving traction.
You would be reacting the motor torque through the torque tube rather
than the car body. This would help preserve the suspension geometry, and
help the car corner a bit better.
----- Original Message ----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:45:31 AM
Subject: Re: Don's 13 inch net gain
Storm Connors wrote:
Back in the "olde days" some vehicles used a torque tube so there
were no U-joints at all.
Dave Wilker wrote:
Torque tube driveshafts had u-joints, but just in the front, by the
transmission output shaft.
Torque tube suspensions either have a single U-joint at the back of the
motor (so the rear axle pivots on a line through the U-joint); or they
rigidly mount the motor to the drive shaft, so axle, shaft, and motor
all bounce up/down together, pivoting at some point on the motor in its
rubber mounts.
Many EVs use torque tube suspension with no U-joints, and with the motor
rigidly attached to the drive shaft. Many golf carts and industrial EVs
do this. So does the Tango, for that matter.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
____________________________________________________________________________________
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General info about that particular show is at
http://www.kcrw.com/etc/programs/de/de061121green_spaces_bus_des
You can download the "Design & Architecture" Podcast at
http://www.kcrw.com/podcasts
= = = = = =
(background: a discussion of BMW's internal-combustion hydrogen
engine, and then diesel cars as race cars, notably an Audi diesel
vehicle that won the 24-hours-of-LeMans)
Host Frances Andersen is interviewing L.A. Times auto critic Dan Neil and says:
3:50 Frances: Is there anything we might see at the L.A. Auto Show
that could help lift the U.S. makers out of the doldrums?
4:18 Dan: [...] I drove a GM Saturn Aura a couple of weeks ago, a very
competitive small sedan. GM's bringing out a hybrid SUV.
4:30 But the real news, I mean the huge news, and it's almost
impossible to overstate this, in terms of the sea change in attitude,
is that GM will introduce, in Detroit probably, an electric car, or a
plug-in electric car, or some hybrid electric vehicle that...
4:56: All I have to say is this: think EV-2
5:00 Frances: The electric car was killed and now it's being resurrected?!?
5:03 Dan: Well, apparently so. I spent, a couple of months ago, I
spent an afternoon with Bob Lutz, who's vice chairman of General
Motors, and not previously a huge fan of hybrid cars, and this
progressive attitude toward powertrains, and he was talking about
General Motors wholly embracing the electrification of the automobile,
and I was sitting there just gobsmacked; I couldn't believe he was
saying what he was saying, and I thought, GREAT, about time!
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