EV Digest 6166
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: The Downside of driving an EV
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EV conversion kit for under $60
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The Downside of driving an EV
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Contactor controllers are better!!
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The Downside of driving an EV
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "John H" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: The Downside of driving an EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Clutchless shifting
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
10) Re: The Downside of driving an EV
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Double of WEB addresses
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) set ev mail
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Connecting multiple motors to a single controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Clutchless shifting
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Charging in 1910 (was: RE: [EV] David problem with email)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: "Who Killed the Electric Car" at Safeway
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Double of WEB addresses - It works now.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
by "Offgrid Engineering" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Before I describe my own experience with clutchless
let me state the main reason to maintain the clutch:
Driver expectation!
Some of you may be the only driver ever of your EV,
but many EVs wil eventually be driven by someone else
either to sell it or because someone of the family/
friends/... needs a ride and they are the only
licensed driver in the group.
If they have no experience with stick-shift already
(which makes it a natural fit) then it is easier to
say: push the clutch pedal, switch gear and release,
than to describe the process of synchronising the
gears in the transmission to the proper speed...
It can even become dangerous in cases where they
find themselves climbing a hill, losing speed and
need to shift gears quickly or fall back, with the
stress of the idea of rolling backwards on a steep
grade and not be able to get the transmission in gear
and keeping their cool in the 3-seconds wait for the
gears to >KRRROK< not synchronise.
It will be an experience they do not forget and
certainly not drive an EV, if that is the image that
the EV has gotten, from likely their only EV experience.
If I would ever expect my wife to use a conversion,
then I will have to keep the clutch. No doubt.
Clutchless makes me think back to my first car:
Daffodil 46 with variomatic and automatic clutch.
Except, one day the wear on the centrifugal clutch
caused one of the shoes to catch and not release...
There I was, just started a 50 mile round-trip drive
with some friends in my car, every traffic light was
Chug-Chug-C-h-u-g-Die of the engine, taking off was
on starter power alone to cross the intersection until
speed was high enough for the engine to Chug-chug-chug
to life... Not particularly smooth stop or start though.
The variomatic helped on take-off to run in low gear.
I survived the trip - the car did too.
The friends slowly recovered from their laughing stupor
and I found myself pulling the (2 cylinder) engine and
clutch to replace the 8 shoes on the centrifugal setup.
BTW: the transmission consisted of 2 moveable pulleys and
a belt - this no doubt cushioned some of the bucking of
the engine at stop/start and because it was an 800 cc
engine with only 2 cylinders, it had low mass which made
the situation less bad.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Michael
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
> So, someone tell me, why not clutchless for everyone?
> Jay
I would assume it's for the same reason ICE have clutches, instead of just
a larger starter motor.
One of my cars sat during the winter & the clutch froze up. When you need
transportation, you make do... so, I know it is possible to use an ICE
clutchless. <g> Just sorta a PITA.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:12 PM 24/11/06 -0800, Jeff wrote:
The local police decided my ICE car parked in front of my house was
abandoned and towed it at 9:30PM on Thanksgiving! While I was in the
house. They want hundreds to give it back. Ironically, the plan for this
first day off of work in a long while, was to buy a tire for the thing
so I could go to Jury duty on monday.
I guess cops need xmas bonuses too. :-(
As long as it is in good (roadworthy) condition, registered and insured,
and it was parked outside the house of the registered owner, you should be
able to go to the police, find the most senior person there, explain the
situation and say "Police officer so-and-so has effectively stolen my car
from outside my house, and is decieving the department into holding it to
ransom. If you get it back for me I won't have him charged with theft" or
something to that effect.
Then negotiate back from that position to get your car back.
Of course, your local police may get a bit "antsy" about that tactic, and
make life hell for you, so find out what the 'go' is before going in there
like John Wayne....
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, I missed the throttle bit. No big deal, there are dozens of folks on
eBay selling Electric bike/scooter throttles.
FWIW MECI also sells front and back wheels (including sprocket and brake)
for e-scooters on eBay, item # 160054552601 .
Plus dozens of folks sell e-scooter/pocket bike/etc. #25 sprockets in
various sizes, some of them even include freewheels if you're interested.
The extra wires are usually connected to the brake lever, so it cuts off
power when braking, and the other is probably for a brake light.
> Note that no throttle is included, you still need
> to add that 5 kOhm potmeter and hook it up or
> (as this aution states) use the supplied parts
> as replacements for a failed eBike or scooter.
>
> Or find a throttle from someone that replaced it,
> I think I have a spare throttle that came with my
> eBike in the garage. Not sure if the connectors
> would match this controller - it looks as if it
> has 5 connectors.
> The first 3 are easy:
> - motor
> - throttle
> - battery
>
> The other 2 may include a safety switch
> (stop if there is no pressure on the footrest,
> because likely the person fell off the scooter)
> and the charger input?
> (My charger plugs straight into the battery,
> so I am not sure if that would apply here too)
> The only other thing I can think of is a
> "State of Charge" display.
>
> Note that the battery wires are snipped, so that
> connector is also missing.
>
> I think the largest challenge with this kit
> (after finding and installing a matching wheel
> sprocket) will be finding and installing the
> right connectors, or to snip connectors off the
> controller and still connect all wires in the
> right places.
> It seems as the kit comes with a wiring diagram,
> so if you are comfortable with that and document
> all wires where you removed connectors, then this
> kit may be good for you.
>
> (The above description not to scare anyone away,
> but to give you an idea as to what you are getting
> so to avoid disappointment AFTER the sale.)
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 9:00 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: EV conversion kit for under $60
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> SInce we have a few newbies I thought I'd post this. I always reccomend
> that when experimenting with EVs you start small. It's a lot cheaper that
> way and the learnign process is almost the same.
>
> Anyway, I came across this auction on ebay for a complete set for a
> scooter/E-bike; batteries, charger, motor, controller, #25 sprocket and
> chain.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160054757472
>
> There are only 10 of them, so if you're interested, you better hurry.
>
> P.S. MECI, aka Mendelson's, is a great surplus place to visit if you're
> ever in Dayton Ohio. Imagine a warehouse that's three stories tall and
> just about fills a city block.
> Actually I think it's four stories, but one floor is off limits to
> customers, or it was last time I was there.
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Was it parked illegally or not properly registered, or something? If not,
then I don't think they have the right to charge you for stealling your
vehicle.
> The local police decided my ICE car parked in front of my house was
> abandoned and towed it at 9:30PM on Thanksgiving! While I was in the
> house. They want hundreds to give it back. Ironically, the plan for this
> first day off of work in a long while, was to buy a tire for the thing
> so I could go to Jury duty on monday.
>
> I guess cops need xmas bonuses too. :-(
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cor, Dennis, Phil and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Contactor controllers are better!!
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 11:51:26 -0800
>I fully agree on contactor controllers being very
>easy to work with, user-repairable and all, even
>the suggestion to install it as the "limp home"
>method in case the electronic controller fails
>made me chalk one more item up for my own conversion
>as I like this idea - in particular if one has the
>idea to fool around with building one's own electronic
>controller, is this a valuable safety net.
You already have 1/2 of it thetre anyway so an
emergency CC is a good idea.
>
>However, keep in mind that an electronic controller
>will give you current multiplication that helps you
>to keep the battery current down on every take-off,
>while the contactor controller will require full
>motor current to come from the batteries.
>This will always hurt your range.
As Phil said, it's not as bad as it seems if you do
things right.
I'd use 2 motors and a single series/partallel pack so
starting up you would double the amps available with the 2
packs in parallel and also double that again with the 2
motors in series, doubling the torque for the same amps so a
4 x's torque/battery amp. And with a starting resistor, it
really doesn't hurt the batts, range much. Now if you have
gel cells and a smallpack weigyt ratio, then you would be
correct.
Another is high gearing so amps needed are low and
pick up higher rpm power with field weakening for good top
speed. EC's can't use field weakening as well so have to be
higher voltage instead, again increasing cost over CC's.
>If range is not your concern, then the CC is as good
>as any controller for you.
>If you worry about range (and about keeping battery
>amps low for long life and range) and in particular
>if you have many traffic lights or stop signs on your
>route, then an electronic controller has a big advantage.
Depends on how many speeds you have. It's easy in the
above system has 2 motor speeds, 2 battery speeds, 1
starting speed and 2 field weakening speeds for speeds in
between the motor/battery pack speeds and for extra top
speeds. This takes 9 contactors though 4 could be replaced
with honkin' diodes for 8 discrete speeds.
Myself would just do motor speeds, starting and field
weakening for 7 speeds and 6 speeds is enough for me and
simplifies charging.
>
>To be completely honest, there is a slight disadvantage
>to most electronic controllers (and the reason they
>need cooling) in that they drop a few volts under load.
>This often only accounts for 1 or 2% of the total power
>delivered, but if you drive full throttle all of your
>trip, then the CC has this 1 or 2% higher efficiency
>by avoiding the drop in voltage.
I thought that too but found out I was wrong as a
contactor, like motor commutators, have voltage drops too,
about the same as a EC does.
It is irrelevant for
>most people, because the traffic does not allow you to
>drive that way that you use this efficiency difference.
>Only on the drag strip can a "bypass" contactor give a
>slight boost to the end game.
Not only bypass but field weakening to boost higher
end power.
>
>The other side of the story - the CC needs a start-up
>resistor to avoid a jerky start from the line. This also
>accounts for inefficiency and a large component that
>gets very warm - something to be aware of while giving
>it a place under the hood, or you end up scorching the
>wiring if that happens to run nearby.
It's on such a short time, it doesn't case any
problem with good design.
>
>Cor van de Water
>> Hi Peter and All,
>>
>> ----- Original Message Follows -----
>> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: " Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
>> <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Contactor controllers
>> Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:05:44 -0700 (MST)
>>
>> >Hey folks, I thought I'd interject something here.
>> >
>> >Since contactor controllers are so simple most people
>> >think they will be cheaper than Silicon controllers.
>> >
>> >If you actually price the cost using new components,
>> >you'll probably find out that contactor controllers are
>> >as expensive, if not more so, than PWM controllers
>> >(contactors aint cheap).
>>
>> Compared to E controllers they are very cost
>> effective. And you are likely to find them surplus or
>> used much more easily, cheaply than an E controller will
>> be, especially if you need higher amps like 800-1000
>> where CC beat the pants off of e controllers.
>> And you forget that to make a E controller work,
>> you need 1/2 an CC anyways!! So CC cost is not much more
>> as with just 2 more contactors, you could have a 3 speed
>> emergency controller.
>> Now add to that advantage is the ability of most
>> anyone able to repair a CC in about 10 minutes with just
>> a few contacts or contactors instead of much money, time
>> waiting for a EC repair shop to get to it.
>> For my EV a 72vdc/450 amp controller costs about
>> $600 with all it's other things to, compared to my new
>> surplus SW80 Curtis contactors at $13.95 each, gives me
>> 600amps+ for under $170 that's easily repairable,
>> reliable, 6 speeds, reverse and could work to 96vdc
>> easily also. If it wasn't a business prototype, I'd put
>> in a CC in a heartbeat. Or with some copper bar,
>> springs, contacts, ect you could build a manual CC from
>> scratch for $25-100 in materials for 144vdc and 1,000
>> amps for those who are really handy. Can you do that with
>> an EC Peter? A 36vdc fork lift CC set will work to
>> 96vdc and put out over 1,000 amps, enough for a
>> reasonable EV, many times very cheap used from a forklift
>> shop. Make sure you can get new contacts for them before
>> you buy. But even buying new CC's are 1/2 the price
>> retail of an EC but much lower wholesale with much higher
>> power outputs on top of lower prices.
>> 95% of all successful E vehicles including
>> industurals, have used CC, maybe more so it's hard to see
>> some people's disdain for them other than
>> controller/gadget snobbery.
>> While it takes a little adjustment of values to get
>> it smooth, they can be as smooth as a reg car without a
>> problem.
>> With the prices of contactors becoming really cheap
>> , 50-75% off when bought in quanity, someone could make
>> decent money building CC's for EV's. Or come up with a
>> manual CC design like the Milburn or Baker.
>> So for all you out there, the CC is a very viable
>> EV controller, even better in several ways like cost,
>> repairability, for anyone wanting to build a good, cost
>> effective EV.
>>
>> Jerry Dycus
Dennis wrote
>CCs made the early current eliminator dragster run a 11.01
>in the qt.mi.I did
>however have more driveline repairs back then.Dave Cloud
>has run CCs in most
>
>of his drag cars at lower voltages,I think we all will see
>him run very low 10s with less than 100 volts in future
>nedra races.
As I can't afford a Zilla, for my drag racing I'll
have to use a CC with some BB600's I have or use a bypass
with field weakening.
I always wondered why drag racers didn't use a CC
with a couple battery pack. a say 48-96vdc S/P or so pack
for 1st, 2nd speeds, the another say 240 vdc pack for
finishing the race, all being 13 amphr Hawkers or other
combo, giving good power through the whole race.
Jerry Dycus
Dennis
>
>Berube
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
They towed a car of mine too once. It was legal and running. But they
forgot to record the mileage of the vehicle and that was the
technicality that got me a refund. But their check bounced. It's
always best to keep your head and fight it anyway.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> towing without notice is illegal
> you can argue that a good faith effort was not made to contact the
car's
> owner (easily proven if you've got some proof you were home at the
time it
> was towed) and you are not responsible for illegal impoundment/storage
> charges
>
> I don't know what local laws/rules you have that may override that
though...
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:12 PM
> Subject: The Downside of driving an EV
>
>
> > The local police decided my ICE car parked in front of my house was
> > abandoned and towed it at 9:30PM on Thanksgiving! While I was in the
> > house. They want hundreds to give it back. Ironically, the plan
for this
> > first day off of work in a long while, was to buy a tire for the thing
> > so I could go to Jury duty on monday.
> >
> > I guess cops need xmas bonuses too. :-(
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your comments about NiFes make a lot of sense. The thing about exposing the
electrolyte to air is supposed to be solved by adding a layer of mineral oil
to the electrolyte. Not your everyday mineral oil, though. I'd have to track
down the specific kind, but it is supposed to solve that problem.
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:39:09 -0800
John H wrote:
> The main reason I want to use NiFes is because they LAST...
> I know a guy whose family has some NiFes from 1905 which they
> are still using. That's a good enough reason for me.
NiFes can last, if they are built right and nothing goes wrong. But like
everything else, they can also be low quality, badly built, abused, and
die young.
The old Edison cells were very ruggedly built, but were also high
maintenance. They used a lot of water, so you had to add it often. The
electrolyte would carbonate (absorb carbon dioxide from the air) and so
needed to be replaced every few years. The separators would develop
pinholes, and so also needed periodic replacement. But the cells were
made so it was easy to disassemble for repairs and maintenance.
The more recent Eagle Picher NiFes that were used in the Chrysler TEVans
were not nearly as rugged, and certainly not easy to rebuild.
Chinese NiFes are a complete unknown. They might be good, but they might
be junk. Caveat Emptor!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well - this has nothing to do with the subject,
unless a neighbor is jealous of your EV and the
fact that you can leave your gasser parked in
front of the house, instead of driving it from
pump to pump.
Anyways - a friend had a neighbor that objected
to him parking his vehicle(s) on the street, so
every time that he had not moved one of his vehicles
for a couple of days, he would find a notice on it
that said he had to move it off-street or drive it
(apparently they took the ODO reading and when they
came back a few days later would check for the same
reading.
I am not sure how people can go on vacation or away
for a couple of days without getting their cars towed
but I have no personal experience with it as it is
not allowed to park in our street, all cars have to be
in the garage or in the driveway.
I have never heard or seen that a car is towed without
a notice a couple days before.
It is really odd to tow a car without even trying to
contact the owner, the police should easily be able
to trace the owner's address from the licence plate
and unless you recently moved or registered it at a
business address, they should see it is the house that
it was parked in front of.
How did you find out?
Did you call the station to report your car stolen?
Or did they put a notice in your mailbox to say it
was towed, but they did not bother to try to contact you?
Odd.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 1:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: The Downside of driving an EV
The local police decided my ICE car parked in front of my house was
abandoned and towed it at 9:30PM on Thanksgiving! While I was in the
house. They want hundreds to give it back. Ironically, the plan for this
first day off of work in a long while, was to buy a tire for the thing
so I could go to Jury duty on monday.
I guess cops need xmas bonuses too. :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Tony,
> Is this basically how you clutchless shift?
> How to shift with no clutch pedal
> Shifting with the clutchless design is slower than with a clutch. These are
> the steps involved:
> Release the accelerator pedal
> Shift into neutral
> Push the gearshift lightly toward the gear you want
> Wait for the synchromech in the gear box to either speed up or slow down
> the
> motor until it matches speeds and drops into gear
> You may now step on the accelerator pedal again
> I usually drive in 2nd and third and do not do much shifting. A shift
> usually
> takes 1-3 seconds. It is odd not having a clutch pedal at first, but it is
> easy
> to get used to. I do not miss it.
Pretty much.
It's about like going 25 mph in an ICE car and downshifting into 1st gear.
You hold the stick up against the syncros until the clutch disc and input shaft
wind up, and then it drops into gear.
It's actually not even that bad.
> So basically the synchromech takes care of everything?
Well, no.
It's two different worlds.
The syncros have little or no effect on the speed of an IC engine.
With an electric motor, we do ask the syncros to take care of everything, so we
have to be a bit gentle.
The syncros actually increase or decrease the speed of the motor to help us
shift gears, if not using a clutch..
> Could you use this method
> with a gas engine?
When you shift a transmission of a gas car without using the clutch, the
syncros allow a shift as the engine speed passes through the synchronous speed
of the input and output shafts of the transmission. If you miss the window or
hesitate completing the shift when you "feel" it's going to drop in, the shift
fails. No amount of pulling on the shift lever will shift it into gear. If you
fool around with the speed of the engine, it's possible to match the shaft
speeds, but it's more difficult then you might think.
So, unlike an EV, driving an ICE car around without a clutch isn't really
practical.
Dana
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Go down and get the car so the storage charges don't eat you alive.
Fight the whole thing after you get the car back. If they make you
sign something to get the car, sign it "under duress" right along
with your name. This makes the signature worthless, but the idiot
clerk won't notice (or won't care.)
They must put a notice (like a ticket) on the car before they are
allowed to tow it, at least in Denver. If you leave it parked in the
same spot for three days, they can put a notice on it and tow it a
day or two later, if you don't move it. They generally chalk the
tires to determine if it has moved since they left the notice.
You have to watch for the notice and note the chalk marks on the
tires. I have "bumped" my car a few feet each time they put on a
notice and chalked the tires. Drove them nuts. Tires were covered
with chalk after a few months.
Usually it is a neighbor that has called it in and
complained, by the way. Figure out who it was, wait for them to go on
vacation, then return the favor. :-)
Bill D.
At 02:12 PM 11/24/2006, you wrote:
The local police decided my ICE car parked in front of my house was
abandoned and towed it at 9:30PM on Thanksgiving! While I was in the
house. They want hundreds to give it back. Ironically, the plan for this
first day off of work in a long while, was to buy a tire for the thing
so I could go to Jury duty on monday.
I guess cops need xmas bonuses too. :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland wrote -
> Hello Peter,
>
> Ok, I will send you a WEB address. It may not double up at your end, but
> when you I received it back in a reply, I may get it double up, meaning it
> will print the WEB address that looks like:
>
> http://www.andersonpower.com
>
> I type the above in a double up sample.
>
> Now I will type it as a normal address:
>
> http://www.andersonpower.com<http://www.andersonpower.com/>
>
> If you reply and I received this Email with this WEB on it, it may or may not
> double up on me.
>
> Lets see what's happens.
>
> If it does, then I will reply again, where you can see the last address has
> double.
>
> Roland
Interestingly enough, as you can see, when I hit reply on Roland's email the
top email address becomes correct. I think somehow Roland's email program
starts to make it into an HTML anchor. So there must be some setting in your
email program that can be unchecked to remedy the problem.
And when I clik on the link in the email it becomes
http://www.andersonpower.com%3chttp//www.andersonpower.com/ and it goes to the
anderson web page with a cannot find error.
The other way for us to deal with that is to just copy it up to the < sign and
then paste it into your browser.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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set ev mail
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josjam123 wrote:
> I am thinking of connecting two smaller AC induction motors to the
> front and rear wheel differentials respectively. Can I use one larger
> controller or should I use two smaller controllers?
In theory, yes. Induction have "slip", which means they always run a few
percent less than synchronous speed. They behave as if there is a fluid
clutch in their output shaft. The slip takes care of minor speed
differences when two motors are wired in parallel.
For example, if the controller commands it to run 3600 rpm, it actually
varies between 3400 rpm (heavy load) and 3550 rpm (light load). So you
can use two motors, each connected to the left and right wheel to avoid
a differential; or two motors, each connected to the the front and rear
differentials as you suggest.
In practice, most AC motor controllers are very complicated, and will
try to prevent you from doing this. They use computers that are
programmed to only allow very specific motors, and if they think you
connected the wrong motor, they refuse to work.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Cor van de Water wrote:
> However, keep in mind that an electronic controller will give you
> current multiplication that helps you to keep the battery current
> down on every take-off, while the contactor controller will require
> full motor current to come from the batteries.
Contactor controllers also do current multiplication. Suppose it has 3
steps; 12v, 24v, and 48v. In the 12v step, each battery delivers 1/4th
of the motor current. In the 24v step, each delivers 1/2 the current.
> If you worry about range (and about keeping battery
> amps low for long life and range) and in particular
> if you have many traffic lights or stop signs on your
> route, then an electronic controller has a big advantage.
I haven't found any range difference between contactor and electronic
controllers. The studies I've seen have confirmed this. You only see a
difference when one of the two is badly implemented.
> The other side of the story - the CC needs a start-up
> resistor to avoid a jerky start from the line. This also
> accounts for inefficiency and a large component that
> gets very warm - something to be aware of while giving
> it a place under the hood, or you end up scorching the
> wiring if that happens to run nearby.
The starting resistor is rarely in the circuit for more than a second or
two each time you start from a dead stop. That works out to an
insignificant amount of time, unless you are driving it "wrong".
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Jeff Shanab wrote:
> ..."The difference here is that instead of letting your synchro
> spin up an electric motor, you have to develop a feel for matching
> engine speed to tranny speed with the accelerator."
>
> Please people. Do not try this with your EV! (unless you have a lot
> of stuff attached to the aux shaft and have rpm limiters in your
> controller. And are naturally lucky.)
I must be lucky. I've had several clutchless EV, and never blew a motor
or had a problem shifting them.
Your success probably depends a lot on details. Mine had relatively low
pack voltages, and relatively small motors. "Flooring it" in neutral
still gave me a couple seconds before it reached dangerous rpms. The
transmission's synchronizers were robust enough that I could always
shift relatively quickly, even if it took extra pressure on the shifter.
And, as a rule, I generally didn't shift very often. 2nd gear was fine
for all around-town driving under 40-50 mph, and I could just leave it
in 3rd above that.
Even in my present LeCar EV (which has a clutch), I normally shift it
without using the clutch.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Myles Twete wrote:
> Regarding charging and control in 1910, Lee argued:
> Yes, mtr-gen chargers were very common.
> I don't know that an AC/DC universal motor was "usual" in 1910.
I guess "usual" is hard for me to say. I've only seen a few, and they
were all DC wound-field motors that ran equally well on AC or DC. But 3
is a pretty small sample.
>> Another was a mercury gas rectifier... These came along a bit later
> From the literature, mercury gas rectifier chargers WERE available
> for use to charge EVs for "nearly 10 years" before 1912
That's amazing! I've never seen any from before WW1.
>> speed was controlled with resistors... Mainly for starting;
>> once moving, they controlled speed by switching the batteries
>> in various series/parallel combinations, and with motor field
>> control.
> This isn't accurate Lee. Few, if any, early electrics used resistor
> control for startup only.
Perhaps this is a question of semantics. There were certainly many
resistors in antique EVs. They were used for starting, arc suppression
between speeds, to provide smoother steps between speeds, for field
control, instrumentation, etc.
But the "big" resistors, used in series with the armature, weren't big
enough to be left in the circuit continuously. You weren't supposed to
drive in a step with a resistor in series with the armature, or it would
overheat. They were intended as temporary intermediate steps that you
passed through on your way to one of the series or parallel steps.
The resistors for field control (shunt, or series field weakening) could
be left in-circuit, because they dissipated a lot less power.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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> I was at the our local Safeway store tonight and noticed that they are
> renting "Who Killed the Electric Car" on DVD. I enquired as to who decides
> what movies are selected to be rented. They told me it was a corporate
> decision. Can any of you tell me if this is true? Is this movie available
at
> your local Safeway? Inquiring minds would like to know.
>
> Roderick Wilde
I don't know about Safeway but our neighborhood Blockbuster has one copy.
Another Blockbuster in a more affluent neighborhood has 5 copies. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:20 AM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
I finally got it not to double up anymore. Even MSN tech did not tell be to
unclick the HTML in the Writing E-Mail options. The plain text option was
already check, which work with the prior MSN Explorer, but this new up grade
has two places in the Internet Options to change this option.
Roland
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The goal is not to meet the form factor of current batteries or their
weight to power ratio.
The real key is can you get enough juice to run a reason electric car
for reasonable distance and time from home made electric storage
materials for a lot less than you can buy modern batteries. The WH/KG
ratio is far down that list. I don't care if it has a triple KG ratio if
i could build them for 10% of the wh cost and just shove them all in a
van. 0 to 60 is not most people's goal.
The cost of the batteries today takes a home made ev out of the realm of
a lot of tinkerers. Many people have old jalopies,vans or pickups and
can get an old forklift motor for a few hundred but will choke on
$10,000 for batteries. If you can offer them an alternative power
storage source that can be homemade for under $1000 then we have something.
That's the goal.
And why in the world would anyone want to use old wooden boxes just
because that's what they did in 1910?
Saying you can make a better transport vehicle doesn't mean learning to
grow cheaper horses because that's what powered couches in the 1800's.
So no I suggest won't suggest working with wooden boxes.
You kind of miss the point of trying to get 80% for 10% of the cost.
Also what I mean by 80% - it isn't wh/kg related. It's total power related.
I am convinced that rethinking ev means also rethinking a cars form
factor. Suince homemade electric storage might not have the power to
size ratio you instead choose to go with a longer vehicle -like almost a
RV form factor ( but not loaded with furniture and the extra weight!)
I think the first self charging low ev's buildable by a home builder
will need to be more along the lines of rv size to hold reasonable watt
hours in a cheap homebuilt form as well as providing roof area to allow
some amount of self charging.
The idea we need to be replicating a sports car form factor is silly.
My goal would be more along the lines of a self charging land cruiser
which could go across the country at no cost by self charging with
frequent stops. After all when you don't have to pay for gas then size
efficiency is less important.
Especially since with self charging electrics you meet a huge
diminishing returns point that reverses as roof size gets small.
David Roden wrote:
On 22 Nov 2006 at 16:07, GWMobile wrote:
Man you'd think you guys had never made a lemon acid battery.
Of course I have. But I didn't try to run an EV on it! ;-)
There's a HUGE gulf between a simple grade-school experiment and a practical
energy source for a 1200kg EV.
Yes forming charge is discussed but not called that.
I've seen this in old books, too.
The point for the home builder is can you get 80% of modern for 10% of
cost.
Right?
I await the evidence from you. You're making authoritative statements, but
you don't offer any evidence for them.
It's one thing to say, "I can make a battery." Any high school kid with a
decent education (I hope there are a few) can do that - there's your lemon
juice battery, the one I made when I was 6 or 8 years old. It's quite
another matter to claim that you can make a practical, usable EV battery.
And, please forgive me, but claiming that, using a wooden box and plain lead
plates, you can make a battery that supplies 80% of the performance of a
rather well optimized modern lead battery stretches my credulity a bit.
I want to see you build it.
The best modern lead batteries will produce a specific energy of 36 Wh/kg.
But I'll ask you only to match 80% of a typical golf car battery's
performance. Here are the aspects of performance I would like you to meet
within 80% :
- cycle life = 650- 800 cycles
- specific energy = 28 Wh/kg
- energy density = 55 Wh/l
Your battery should also be capable of producing 120 volts or more at 75
amps or more continously, and 400 amps or more for at least one minute, to
be a reasonably practical EV battery. You will have to demonstrate this
performance.
This is my challenge to you. Build your own EV battery according to the
plans you cite, using commonly available materials. No cheating and buying
premade cases, grids, separators, or any other parts from battery industry
suppliers! This battery must be made with non-battery-specific materials
that anyone can buy from a lumberyard, hardware store, and/or chemical
supply house. You must use "large lead plates hanging in wooden boxes
treated to resist the acid."
Fit your EV with this battery. If you don't have a suitable EV for testing,
you can demonstrate its function with a dummy load. It must produce as
described above - 120 volts or more at 75 amps or more continuously, 400
amps or more for one minute (with 5 minutes between 400 amp demands). If
you can't make 120 volts' worth, then you may extrapolate, but please build
at least a 6 volt battery. It will still have to supply the current
discussed above.
Don't forget to measure and weigh the battery before installing it. You
will need these dimensions to calculate the specific energy and energy
density.
Conduct a test period to demonstrate the following performance. Of course,
you are not allowed to rebuild or repair the battery during the test period;
you may only add water as necessary.
Each factor listed is 80% of a golf car battery's :
- cycle life = 520 cycles
- specific energy = 22.4 Wh/kg
- energy density = 44 Wh/l
Just to be clear, here are the definitions :
Cycle life : the number of discharge cycles before capacity falls to 80% of
rated capacity (in this case I'll accept your initial measured capacity as
the rated capacity). If I'm not mistaken, a cycle by BCI standards begins
with a fully charged battery. The battery is discharged to 1.75 volts per
cell, then recharged to 100% - one full cycle.
Specific energy : Watt-hours produced in a 75-amp constant current discharge
to 1.75 volts per cell, divided by the battery's mass in kilograms.
Energy density : Watt-hours produced in a 75-amp constant current discharge
to 1.75 volts per cell, divided by the battery's volume in liters.
I'm not going to say it can't be done, but I'll admit I'm skeptical. Show
me that you can build an EV battery that meets this "80% of modern" standard
(actually more like "80% of 1975"), and I'll be convinced - and impressed.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Thanks Lee:
Thanks for the motor feedback, I think pmdc is a good choice, but a series
motor might be good too, especially if I can find one that has better torque
and reasonable efficiency... (where are those ADC torque curves online, I
can't find them!!).
In Excel we modeled the "simple CVT" you suggest and it is a fairly linear
proportion curve. When you overlay this curve over the exponential torque
curve from a motor, the two do not line up very well. We think there might
be a better fit using two or 3 speeds and chain drive...
I do have the spreadsheet showing the model if anyone is interested.
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
Offgrid Engineering wrote:
> We are a high school student team who is building a car to compete in
> a solar car drag race. The power is supplied only by solar, no energy
> storage is allowed.
OK; that means your motor/transmission system operates at a fixed power
level throughout the race (constant horsepower).
> We are in need of a motor. Electric power available = about 2000w at
> Vmp = 56VDC.
OK; that suggests picking a motor that has its peak efficiency at 2000w and
56v. A PM DC motor can readily do this.
> Gearing on car will be used if needed, depending on motor torque, rpm
> (CVT possible but simple bike gearing for simplicity is preferred)
Here's an idea that worked great on small solar cars. Paul Compton came up
with it.
Put a spool on the motor, and another larger on a wheel's axle. Wind a metal
band or wire on the large spool. Connect the free end to the small spool on
the motor.
When you first power the motor, you have in effect a large pulley on the
wheel, and a small one on the wheel; thus, you have a low "gear" to produce
high torque to get started quickly.
As the car moves down the track, the wire winds from the wheel to the motor
spool. This changes the effective diameter, so you have a CVT that
automatically shifts to a higher "gear" as you go.
By experimenting with the spool sizes and amount of wire on them, you can
get any desired ratio at start and finish.
If the race is long enough for the car to reach terminal velocity, include a
chain drive with a clutch in parallel with the cable/pulley transmission.
When the last of the wire unwinds from the wheel spool, connect the chain
drive's clutch and finish at constant speed (limited by the solar power
available).
Such a setup should be very simple, very efficient, and with some
experimentation, able to keep the motor right near its most efficient rpm
throughout the run.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
-- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
