EV Digest 6167
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: The Downside of driving an EV
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) FW: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
by "Offgrid Engineering" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
7) Re: Double of WEB addresses
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Charging in 1910 (was: RE: [EV] David problem with email)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The Downside of driving an EV
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Charging in 1910 (was: RE: [EV] David problem with email)
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Double WEB is fix.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Charging in 1910
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Charging in 1910 (was: RE: [EV] David problem with email)
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Charging in 1910 (was: RE: [EV] David problem with email)
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Newbie question about batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> It is really odd to tow a car without even trying to
> contact the owner, the police should easily be able
> to trace the owner's address from the licence plate
> and unless you recently moved or registered it at a
> business address, they should see it is the house that
> it was parked in front of.
In Portland, a Ukranian couple came out of their condo to find a tow truck
guy hitching up their mini-van from their own driveway. When the tow guy
wouldn't disconnect it, the husband got a knife and sliced the tow truck's
tire. Cops & sheriff then showed up & presumed the guy with the knife was
the bad guy and hauled him off...cops later said they don't take sides on
issues of towing. Wrong. They always take the side of the tow truck guy.
Sanctioned theft okay. Knife to tire to defend against theft---not okay.
The Ukranians moved out apparently.
Warning to all condo dwellers----don't park beyond your driveway
cement...you could get towed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter:
The revised numbers with RPM's are below:
> speeds. The AGNI motor models out to:
> 30Nm at 6V/160A (eff = 16%) RPM = 96 (note control and wiring
> losses)
> 26Nm at 11V/150A, (eff = 63%) RPM = 403
> ... and so on ending at...
>3.5Nm at 56V/34A (eff = 90%) RPM = 2860
Where do I find those ADC curves...I looked all over their web site and
googled for them and still no luck!! I am using the 7" motor in my electric
motorcycle, and have the data sheet for that, but it is too big for this
job. For a 30 second race the 4.5" motor may be enough??
Thanks for the explanation of the pwm chopper, I saw it more as a boost than
a buck, with the switch on the low side, but I am now corrected. I probably
need to model that in LTC spice to be clear how it works eh?
I would really love to use a series motor, for the ease of drive..I can use
the off the shelf Alltrax or roll my own (I design and mfg. high power
inverters). I have a large full bridge 400 amp (continuous) power board that
can easily be converted to a single chopper low side switch, and probably do
over 93% eff. And this can be switched out at some point to do array direct
for zero controller losses.
Are there any more efficient series motors that would be worth looking at??
One thing about the AGNI, it is actually designed to run solar direct. While
we are not running a continuous race here and needing that high eff, it
would be useful to have more power to the wheels than the competition!!
Thanks again...
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:42 AM
To: Offgrid Engineering
Subject: RE: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
> Thanks Peter:
>
> Even with a pwm controller and a series wound motor, because we only
> have 2KW max power available from the pv, one would want to lower
> voltage to get more current (a buck topology) to get higher torque,
> right? At 56V, the max current available from pv is only about 32
> amps. We need more than that to accelerate from the starting line, so
> design goal is for 100+ amps.
Nope, the series motor and controller effective form a buck converter.
You feed it 56V @ 32A and at low RPMs the motor may see 5.6V @ 320A, or
whatever. As the motor's rpms come up and the back EMF builds and the
effective voltage across the motor increases, at the same time the current
drops.
Net result is that power in = power out (minus losses of course) All of
this happens automatically.
>
> I agree that torque is key, so the key is to produce max torque at all
> speeds. The AGNI motor models out to:
> 30Nm at 6V/160A (eff = 16%)
> 26Nm at 11V/150A, (eff = 63%)
> 19Nm at 17V/113A, (eff = 78%)
> 14Nm at 22V/85 A, (eff = 84%)
> 11Nm at 27V/68 A, (eff = 86%)
> 9Nm at 33V/56A, (eff = 88%)
> and so forth, finally ending at:
> 3.5Nm at 56V/34A (eff = 90%)
Hmm, at what RPMs? (I'm feeling to lazy this morning to calculate it)
Remember it's torque at the wheels that matters. If you need a reduction
ratio between the motor and the wheels, this will increase the torque at the
wheel.
FWIW something like an ADC A89-4001 series wound motor will produce
something like 50NM of torque @ 350A.
I'm guessing here, you'd need to check with the manufacturer or a
distributor, but I think with an effective voltage of 5V across the motor
and 350A it will spin at about 100 rpm and produce 50NM. I'm guessing
because my charts don't go that low.
At high RPMs/Voltage AGNI is definitely more efficient, but I think at the
high torque/low RPMs the ADC motor will be more efficient.
Note there are cheaper motors available than the A89-4001. THe
140-07-4001 might be a better choice for your application and is about $100
cheaper, I just didn't have torque charts for it available.
Hmm, you know with as light a vehicle as you are planning on, you might be
able to go direct drive with the A89. That will illiminate some power loss
in the drive train.
>
> Note that these are the max available currents from the pv, if a buck
> switching regulator is used, with 2KW. There may be a configuration
> with only 1.2KW available!!
>
> Can I get that kind of torque from a series wound with that much
> current available?? Any idea which one?
>
> Thanks again
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:35 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
>
> You might want to consider using a series motor and controller instead.
>
> Drag racing is mostly about torque, rather than efficiency. Series
> wound motors are the kings of torque.
> With this setup you wouldn't need to worry about switching from 12V to
> 56V, the motor and controller will take care of that for you.
>
> You'd have to experiment, but adding the low ESR capacitors might
> improve the performance. Then again, the judges might decide that the
> capacitors constitute an energy storage system.
>
>
>> Hello all:
>> Happy turkey day!!
>>
>> WE are a high school student team who is building a car to compete in
>> a solar car drag race.
>> The power is supplied only by solar, no energy storage is allowed.
>> We are in need of a motor.
>>
>> The specs are:
>> overall weight of car = 630 lbs
>> electric power available = about 2000w at Vmp = 56VDC Max point power
>> tracker (MPPT) = will be used if needed, array direct is preferred.
>> Gearing on car, will be used if needed, depending on motor torque,
>> rpm (CVT possible but simple bike gearing for simplicity is
>> preferred) Distance of race = 1/4km Desired speed at end = AS fast as
possible!!
>> (24mph?) Current available at beginning of race to accelerate = about
>> 120 amps at 12V Current available at end of race to accelerate =
>> about
>> 32 amps at 56V
>>
>>
>> I have looked at the hub motors, they don't have a very high
>> efficiency across the 0 - full rpm range that we would get from a
>> external motor with a transmission with 2 or 3 speeds.
>>
>> Brushless motors are interesting, but the motor controllers for the
>> power range we need usually current limit way before 120 amps. I
>> don't believe induction motors with inverter will be efficient enough.
>>
>> So I like pancake motors, and of these the part with the highest
>> efficiency spec, (looked at Lemco, Perm Motor, Scott, and Etek)
>> appears to be AGNI motor at:
>> http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view
>> &
>> id=30&
>> Itemid=42
>>
>> These are pricey at 1339 USD, but they are available and seem to come
>> from a good gene pool.
>>
>> We plan to accelerate at the start using about 12V and high current,
>> then shift to a higher voltage to allow the RPM's to come up.
>> Connecting to the array directly at some point (and monitoring with a
>> micro to keep the Vmp at 56V) will allow max power transfer to the
>> motor.
>>
>> My question is, do we have the right motor, is there a better one,
>> and if so is it in stock and available.
>> We don't want anything made of unobtaniuim (read: very expensive or
>> not available)?? Also any drive ideas will be welcome of course!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks much (for reading this far!)
>>
>> Tim Economu
>> 2006 South Whidbey Solar car Drag Team [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes!
Now there's a guy who thinks like a true EV home made hacker.
gotta get away from this "high tech" mode of thinking and back down to
what can handle big amps for dirt cheap.
jerryd wrote:
Hi Peter and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: " Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>
Subject: Contactor controllers
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:05:44 -0700 (MST)
Hey folks, I thought I'd interject something here.
Since contactor controllers are so simple most people think
they will be cheaper than Silicon controllers.
If you actually price the cost using new components, you'll
probably find out that contactor controllers are as
expensive, if not more so, than PWM controllers (contactors
aint cheap).
Compared to E controllers they are very cost
effective. And you are likely to find them surplus or used
much more easily, cheaply than an E controller will be,
especially if you need higher amps like 800-1000 where CC
beat the pants off of e controllers.
And you forget that to make a E controller work, you
need 1/2 an CC anyways!! So CC cost is not much more as with
just 2 more contactors, you could have a 3 speed emergency
controller.
Now add to that advantage is the ability of most
anyone able to repair a CC in about 10 minutes with just a
few contacts or contactors instead of much money, time
waiting for a EC repair shop to get to it.
For my EV a 72vdc/450 amp controller costs about $600
with all it's other things to, compared to my new surplus
SW80 Curtis contactors at $13.95 each, gives me 600amps+ for
under $170 that's easily repairable, reliable, 6 speeds,
reverse and could work to 96vdc easily also. If it wasn't a
business prototype, I'd put in a CC in a heartbeat.
Or with some copper bar, springs, contacts, ect you
could build a manual CC from scratch for $25-100 in
materials for 144vdc and 1,000 amps for those who are really
handy. Can you do that with an EC Peter?
A 36vdc fork lift CC set will work to 96vdc and put
out over 1,000 amps, enough for a reasonable EV, many times
very cheap used from a forklift shop. Make sure you can get
new contacts for them before you buy.
But even buying new CC's are 1/2 the price retail of
an EC but much lower wholesale with much higher power
outputs on top of lower prices.
95% of all successful E vehicles including
industurals, have used CC, maybe more so it's hard to see
some people's disdain for them other than controller/gadget
snobbery.
While it takes a little adjustment of values to get it
smooth, they can be as smooth as a reg car without a
problem.
With the prices of contactors becoming really cheap,
50-75% off when bought in quanity, someone could make decent
money building CC's for EV's. Or come up with a manual CC
design like the Milburn or Baker.
So for all you out there, the CC is a very viable EV
controller, even better in several ways like cost,
repairability, for anyone wanting to build a good, cost
effective EV.
Jerry Dycus
Sure you can save money by scrounging around for
used/surplus contactors. But if you are going to scrounge,
why not just scrounge for a used/surplus PWM controller?
Chances are it is still going to be about the same cost as
used/surplus contactors.
A couple of the EV parts vendors sell rebuilt controllers
for a reasonable price and there is always eBay.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of
legalistic junk at the end; then you are specifically
authorizing me to do whatever I wish with the message. By
posting the message you agree that your long legalistic
signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just curious
what is your total "over the curve" pv area
and what is your actual top down view roof surface area?
what is your cell efficiency and what latitude will the race be run?
what is the expect solar power per sq in the race zone?
Offgrid Engineering wrote:
Thanks Peter:
Even with a pwm controller and a series wound motor, because we only have
2KW max power available from the pv, one would want to lower voltage to get
more current (a buck topology) to get higher torque, right? At 56V, the max
current available from pv is only about 32 amps. We need more than that to
accelerate from the starting line, so design goal is for 100+ amps.
I agree that torque is key, so the key is to produce max torque at all
speeds. The AGNI motor models out to:
30Nm at 6V/160A (eff = 16%)
26Nm at 11V/150A, (eff = 63%)
19Nm at 17V/113A, (eff = 78%)
14Nm at 22V/85 A, (eff = 84%)
11Nm at 27V/68 A, (eff = 86%)
9Nm at 33V/56A, (eff = 88%)
and so forth, finally ending at:
3.5Nm at 56V/34A (eff = 90%)
Note that these are the max available currents from the pv, if a buck
switching regulator is used, with 2KW. There may be a configuration with
only 1.2KW available!!
Can I get that kind of torque from a series wound with that much current
available?? Any idea which one?
Thanks again
Tim
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
You might want to consider using a series motor and controller instead.
Drag racing is mostly about torque, rather than efficiency. Series wound
motors are the kings of torque.
With this setup you wouldn't need to worry about switching from 12V to 56V,
the motor and controller will take care of that for you.
You'd have to experiment, but adding the low ESR capacitors might improve
the performance. Then again, the judges might decide that the capacitors
constitute an energy storage system.
Hello all:
Happy turkey day!!
WE are a high school student team who is building a car to compete in
a solar car drag race.
The power is supplied only by solar, no energy storage is allowed.
We are in need of a motor.
The specs are:
overall weight of car = 630 lbs
electric power available = about 2000w at Vmp = 56VDC Max point power
tracker (MPPT) = will be used if needed, array direct is preferred.
Gearing on car, will be used if needed, depending on motor torque, rpm
(CVT possible but simple bike gearing for simplicity is preferred)
Distance of race = 1/4km Desired speed at end = AS fast as possible!!
(24mph?) Current available at beginning of race to accelerate = about
120 amps at 12V Current available at end of race to accelerate = about
32 amps at 56V
I have looked at the hub motors, they don't have a very high
efficiency across the 0 - full rpm range that we would get from a
external motor with a transmission with 2 or 3 speeds.
Brushless motors are interesting, but the motor controllers for the
power range we need usually current limit way before 120 amps. I
don't believe induction motors with inverter will be efficient enough.
So I like pancake motors, and of these the part with the highest
efficiency spec, (looked at Lemco, Perm Motor, Scott, and Etek)
appears to be AGNI motor at:
http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&;
id=30&
Itemid=42
These are pricey at 1339 USD, but they are available and seem to come
from a good gene pool.
We plan to accelerate at the start using about 12V and high current,
then shift to a higher voltage to allow the RPM's to come up.
Connecting to the array directly at some point (and monitoring with a
micro to keep the Vmp at 56V) will allow max power transfer to the
motor.
My question is, do we have the right motor, is there a better one, and
if so is it in stock and available.
We don't want anything made of unobtaniuim (read: very expensive or
not available)?? Also any drive ideas will be welcome of course!!
Thanks much (for reading this far!)
Tim Economu
2006 South Whidbey Solar car Drag Team
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
sounds like in cold environs the cc can be a heater for interior or
batteries if vented properly.
Cor van de Water wrote:
The other side of the story - the CC needs a start-up
resistor to avoid a jerky start from the line. This also
accounts for inefficiency and a large component that
gets very warm - something to be aware of while giving
it a place under the hood, or you end up scorching the
wiring if that happens to run nearby.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 5:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
In a message dated 11/23/2006 8:11:32 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
ctor controllers are better!!
Date:11/23/2006 8:11:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to:[email protected]
To:[email protected]
Received from Internet:
Hi Peter and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: " Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[email protected]>
Subject: Contactor controllers
Date: Thu, 23 Nov 2006 10:05:44 -0700 (MST)
Hey folks, I thought I'd interject something here.
Since contactor controllers are so simple most people think
they will be cheaper than Silicon controllers.
If you actually price the cost using new components, you'll
probably find out that contactor controllers are as
expensive, if not more so, than PWM controllers (contactors
aint cheap).
Compared to E controllers they are very cost
effective. And you are likely to find them surplus or used
much more easily, cheaply than an E controller will be,
especially if you need higher amps like 800-1000 where CC
beat the pants off of e controllers.
And you forget that to make a E controller work, you
need 1/2 an CC anyways!! So CC cost is not much more as with
just 2 more contactors, you could have a 3 speed emergency
controller.
Now add to that advantage is the ability of most
anyone able to repair a CC in about 10 minutes with just a
few contacts or contactors instead of much money, time
waiting for a EC repair shop to get to it.
For my EV a 72vdc/450 amp controller costs about $600
with all it's other things to, compared to my new surplus
SW80 Curtis contactors at $13.95 each, gives me 600amps+ for
under $170 that's easily repairable, reliable, 6 speeds,
reverse and could work to 96vdc easily also. If it wasn't a
business prototype, I'd put in a CC in a heartbeat.
Or with some copper bar, springs, contacts, ect you
could build a manual CC from scratch for $25-100 in
materials for 144vdc and 1,000 amps for those who are really
handy. Can you do that with an EC Peter?
A 36vdc fork lift CC set will work to 96vdc and put
out over 1,000 amps, enough for a reasonable EV, many times
very cheap used from a forklift shop. Make sure you can get
new contacts for them before you buy.
But even buying new CC's are 1/2 the price retail of
an EC but much lower wholesale with much higher power
outputs on top of lower prices.
95% of all successful E vehicles including
industurals, have used CC, maybe more so it's hard to see
some people's disdain for them other than controller/gadget
snobbery.
While it takes a little adjustment of values to get it
smooth, they can be as smooth as a reg car without a
problem.
With the prices of contactors becoming really cheap,
50-75% off when bought in quanity, someone could make decent
money building CC's for EV's. Or come up with a manual CC
design like the Milburn or Baker.
So for all you out there, the CC is a very viable EV
controller, even better in several ways like cost,
repairability, for anyone wanting to build a good, cost
effective EV.
Jerry Dycus
CCs made the early current eliminator dragster run a 11.01 in the qt.mi.I
did
however have more driveline repairs back then.Dave Cloud has run CCs in most
of his drag cars at lower voltages,I think we all will see him run very low
10s with less than 100 volts in future nedra races. Dennis
Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh, I don't know, Cor.
I'm about 50/50 on the clutch vs. clutchless issue.
But I haven't had much of a problem with others driving the car without a
clutch.
I describe it as an automatic, but granted, it is a bit difficult to describe
"holding it up against the syncros until it shifts into gear at 40 mph".
I find most have problems removing their foot from the accelerator pedal to
shift it and not so many with problems related to the shifting itself.
Your point is well taken and it does take a little special instruction, but I
don't think it is a deal breaker.
The inability to shift the transmission out of gear under load is a real
problem though.
A necessary part of any discussion of a clutchless design needs to include the
main disconnect switch.
My wife does O.K. with it - she just won't let me work on it anymore.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Before I describe my own experience with clutchless
> let me state the main reason to maintain the clutch:
>
> Driver expectation!
> Some of you may be the only driver ever of your EV,
> but many EVs wil eventually be driven by someone else
> either to sell it or because someone of the family/
> friends/... needs a ride and they are the only
> licensed driver in the group.
> If they have no experience with stick-shift already
> (which makes it a natural fit) then it is easier to
> say: push the clutch pedal, switch gear and release,
> than to describe the process of synchronising the
> gears in the transmission to the proper speed...
> It can even become dangerous in cases where they
> find themselves climbing a hill, losing speed and
> need to shift gears quickly or fall back, with the
> stress of the idea of rolling backwards on a steep
> grade and not be able to get the transmission in gear
> and keeping their cool in the 3-seconds wait for the
> gears to >KRRROK< not synchronise.
> It will be an experience they do not forget and
> certainly not drive an EV, if that is the image that
> the EV has gotten, from likely their only EV experience.
>
> If I would ever expect my wife to use a conversion,
> then I will have to keep the clutch. No doubt.
>
> Clutchless makes me think back to my first car:
> Daffodil 46 with variomatic and automatic clutch.
> Except, one day the wear on the centrifugal clutch
> caused one of the shoes to catch and not release...
> There I was, just started a 50 mile round-trip drive
> with some friends in my car, every traffic light was
> Chug-Chug-C-h-u-g-Die of the engine, taking off was
> on starter power alone to cross the intersection until
> speed was high enough for the engine to Chug-chug-chug
> to life... Not particularly smooth stop or start though.
> The variomatic helped on take-off to run in low gear.
> I survived the trip - the car did too.
> The friends slowly recovered from their laughing stupor
> and I found myself pulling the (2 cylinder) engine and
> clutch to replace the 8 shoes on the centrifugal setup.
>
> BTW: the transmission consisted of 2 moveable pulleys and
> a belt - this no doubt cushioned some of the bucking of
> the engine at stop/start and because it was an 800 cc
> engine with only 2 cylinders, it had low mass which made
> the situation less bad.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Michael
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:43 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
>
>
> > So, someone tell me, why not clutchless for everyone?
> > Jay
>
> I would assume it's for the same reason ICE have clutches, instead of just
> a larger starter motor.
>
> One of my cars sat during the winter & the clutch froze up. When you need
> transportation, you make do... so, I know it is possible to use an ICE
> clutchless. <g> Just sorta a PITA.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland, Is thids what concerns you? To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
As I said, this is not a "Double of WEB addresses".. It is the normal
"Name<address>" construction. It might be a result of not putting any name for
the EV List in your address book.
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:33:19 PM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
Hello David,
I was on line with MSN for over a hour. They transfer me from one person to
the next to the next to the next. My MSN Explorer was auto updated and for some
reason it did not defaulted correctly. So they have me press Control, Shift,
F11, right shift Start, Home, go on line, right click this and that, change the
name of folders and back again, wait a hour, turn off computer, turn it back
again and then send a WEB address to myself and it still did not work.
I going to just leave it as the way it is.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
I received this as you describe - each address printed twice. But that is
of no consequence. I can double-click either one, and my browser opens with
the correct address. It is only an appearance issue, nothing to worry
about.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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> But the "big" resistors, used in series with the armature, weren't big
> enough to be left in the circuit continuously. You weren't supposed to
> drive in a step with a resistor in series with the armature, or it would
> overheat. They were intended as temporary intermediate steps that you
> passed through on your way to one of the series or parallel steps.
>
> The resistors for field control (shunt, or series field weakening) could
> be left in-circuit, because they dissipated a lot less power.
All 4 of the Milburn's resistors are big coils.
I can run in 1st or 3rd speed continuously...BOTH are big coils Lee.
But you wouldn't want to dwell in either speed while going up a hill.
-MT
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you should call your local tv news before you go to the pound and have
them call the city for you.
they would probably cover the story and the bonus is the city would
probably give your car back for free.
It would be great publicity for the ev car movement
"Resident's successful EV causes assumed abandonment of his gasoline
vehicle!"
Jeff Shanab wrote:
The local police decided my ICE car parked in front of my house was
abandoned and towed it at 9:30PM on Thanksgiving! While I was in the
house. They want hundreds to give it back. Ironically, the plan for this
first day off of work in a long while, was to buy a tire for the thing
so I could go to Jury duty on monday.
I guess cops need xmas bonuses too. :-(
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--- Begin Message ---
The 1909 version of "self Propelled Vehicles"
lists the General Electric Company's mercury gas rectifier
So they were available then.
The books first printing was 1902 so they may have been available then.
Lee Hart wrote:
Myles Twete wrote:
Regarding charging and control in 1910, Lee argued:
Yes, mtr-gen chargers were very common.
I don't know that an AC/DC universal motor was "usual" in 1910.
I guess "usual" is hard for me to say. I've only seen a few, and they
were all DC wound-field motors that ran equally well on AC or DC. But 3
is a pretty small sample.
Another was a mercury gas rectifier... These came along a bit later
From the literature, mercury gas rectifier chargers WERE available
for use to charge EVs for "nearly 10 years" before 1912
That's amazing! I've never seen any from before WW1.
speed was controlled with resistors... Mainly for starting;
once moving, they controlled speed by switching the batteries
in various series/parallel combinations, and with motor field
control.
This isn't accurate Lee. Few, if any, early electrics used resistor
control for startup only.
Perhaps this is a question of semantics. There were certainly many
resistors in antique EVs. They were used for starting, arc suppression
between speeds, to provide smoother steps between speeds, for field
control, instrumentation, etc.
But the "big" resistors, used in series with the armature, weren't big
enough to be left in the circuit continuously. You weren't supposed to
drive in a step with a resistor in series with the armature, or it would
overheat. They were intended as temporary intermediate steps that you
passed through on your way to one of the series or parallel steps.
The resistors for field control (shunt, or series field weakening) could
be left in-circuit, because they dissipated a lot less power.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Storm Connors" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Double of WEB addresses
> Roland, Is this what concerns you? To:
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> As I said, this is not a "Double of WEB addresses".. It is the normal
> "Name<address>" construction. It might be a result of not putting any name
> for the EV List in your address book.
> storm
No, that not it. I had to click and uncheck 13 different places in the
Internet options, Internet E-Mail and E-Mail Text writing in the new
Explorer Upgrade. Not like the old Explorer where you can check plain text
to make it work. The MSN techs had a hell of a time to work this out.
Roland
Roland
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--- Begin Message ---
Jay, I have been trying to tell people this for a long time! You explain it
so much better, because you've had it both ways!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 7:21 AM
Subject: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
> Bob,
> I had the same vibration from a flywheel maybe a little bit warped on my
79
> LeCar (16xT105, Curtis 400A, stock Prestolite MTA-4001 with 10 degree
> advanced timing) - very aggravating. So, I was thinking, why do we use
> clutches anyway with electric motors and PWM controllers? I can see how
they
> might be needed for parking using contactors, but with controllers ....?
>
> Pulled the motor, threw away the pressure plate, throwout bearing, clutch
> disk, flywheel, taper adapter - about 22 lbs of steel - big inertial drag
at
> startup and slowdown, huge pile of angular momentum.
>
> Replaced it with a ~1 lb adapter made from 2" steel bar. We bored it
through
> to fit the motor shaft 1.125", cut a keyway and put in some headless set
> screws. On the other end, turned the splined hub from the clutch disk to
the
> same 1.125 diameter, cut some chamfers for weld bead, pressed it into the
> adapter and welded it all around , then faced it off on a mill. This hooks
> the motor to the splined trans shaft. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/727
> some pictures here, contact me off list if you want to see some more
> pictures or details or to have an adapter made.
>
> OK, the results - it is a lot faster off the line, especially the 0-10
mph,
> slows down sooner when you are coasting to traffic lights (saves braking),
> and SHIFTS LIKE A DREAM. I mean, it just flops into gear, the
synchronizers
> have so much less mass to slow down. Upshifts in 1 second, downshifts in 2
> seconds. Much peppier. And NO VIBRATION.
>
> So, someone tell me, why not clutchless for everyone?
> Jay
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 1:03 AM
> > Subject: Motor Vibration
> >
> >
> > > I have been trying to track down the source of a vibration I believe
> > > is coming from my 8" ADC Motor. The vibration starts around 3k RPMS
> > > and happens in all gears. I have had my flywheel zero balanced, and
> > > have a new pressure plate and clutch.
> -------
> > > So, my question is, could this cause the vibration, or is there
> > > potential for error in my measurements?
> > >
> > > Any suggestions? Can this be fixed? Is this normal?
> > >
> > > Chris Sutton
> > > Seattle, WA
> > >
> > > Hi Chris;
> >
> > I went through this opera for years, on my Rabbit!Thought it was my
> > tranny, flywheel, just lived with it til it got as loud as a Diseasel
> > Rabbit. Would change out the tranny, no fix. My motor bearings would
wear
> > out in 30k miles, all that. So I FINALLY had the 12 lb Rabbit flywheel
> > machined down to 6 lbs, who NEEDS a ring gear in an EV, anyhow? The
> > machinist an' I watched POUNDS of scrap steel peel away, very
gratifying!
> > After all this, new motor bearings, comm cut and polished,a stronger
> > pressure plate, and disc, put the whole assembly together. The motor
> > armature,the taper lock, flywheel, and pressure plate TOGETHER as it
would
> > be in the car. Schlepped it down to a gas rig speed shop. Gas guyz run
at
> > higher speeds than we, I mean RACING gas stuff.He set it up, in a thing
a
> > crankshaft just came out of. Spun it up to whatEVer it took to get a
> balance
> > reading. IT WAS out of balance when it was asssembled. The motor
armature
> > was OK by itself, the Warfield folks took care of that, already. But
when
> ya
> > put all this scrap iron together it sure as hell isn't!Yeah I had a bit
of
> > runout, too, like you, but I let the guy just BALANCE the whole thing as
> it
> > would live in the car.
> >
> > Results, WOW! Glass smooth the stuff EV grins are made of. Instant
> > throttle response! Lay rubber in second just by flooring it! John
Wayland
> > did! We would still be honeymooning had I not wrecked it towing it home
> from
> > Joliet.The lightened flywheel makes a differance. Probably woulda torn
up
> > the tranny by now<g>?
> >
> > So,.....bottom line; Balance EVerything ,put together, oh, don't put
> the
> > clutch disc in while doing this, because you will NEVER get it
> centered!!It
> > will center when you put the thing together , when you re install the
> motor.
> >
> > Happy smooooth motoring!
> >
> > Bob
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.15/550 - Release Date:
11/24/2006 5:20 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: Charging in 1910
Another way the EV's in 1910 or prior to that, when the house wiring was all
DC which was normally just lights, that the battery pack voltage maximum
voltage was size to the voltage of the DC incoming lines.
There would be a bank of light switches in one room of the house that
connected a series of light bulbs in the house in series with the batteries
being charge.
If the batteries are discharge, the lights in that one room or rooms would
be dim. As the batteries are being charge, the lights would get brighter
and brighter.
At full brightness, then they new the batteries where over 95 percent
charge. How simple can that be.
Roland
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--- Begin Message ---
interesting free old 1915 book on electricity from project gutenberg.
no illustrations unfortunately
Title: The Story Of Electricity
1915
Author: John Munro
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext03/strlc10.txt
Lee Hart wrote:
Myles Twete wrote:
Regarding charging and control in 1910, Lee argued:
Yes, mtr-gen chargers were very common.
I don't know that an AC/DC universal motor was "usual" in 1910.
I guess "usual" is hard for me to say. I've only seen a few, and they
were all DC wound-field motors that ran equally well on AC or DC. But 3
is a pretty small sample.
Another was a mercury gas rectifier... These came along a bit later
From the literature, mercury gas rectifier chargers WERE available
for use to charge EVs for "nearly 10 years" before 1912
That's amazing! I've never seen any from before WW1.
speed was controlled with resistors... Mainly for starting;
once moving, they controlled speed by switching the batteries
in various series/parallel combinations, and with motor field
control.
This isn't accurate Lee. Few, if any, early electrics used resistor
control for startup only.
Perhaps this is a question of semantics. There were certainly many
resistors in antique EVs. They were used for starting, arc suppression
between speeds, to provide smoother steps between speeds, for field
control, instrumentation, etc.
But the "big" resistors, used in series with the armature, weren't big
enough to be left in the circuit continuously. You weren't supposed to
drive in a step with a resistor in series with the armature, or it would
overheat. They were intended as temporary intermediate steps that you
passed through on your way to one of the series or parallel steps.
The resistors for field control (shunt, or series field weakening) could
be left in-circuit, because they dissipated a lot less power.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So you wouldn't want to leave your foot on the resistor "clutch" or you
would burn it out then too!
But the "big" resistors, used in series with the armature, weren't big
enough to be left in the circuit continuously. You weren't supposed to
drive in a step with a resistor in series with the armature, or it would
overheat. They were intended as temporary intermediate steps that you
passed through on your way to one of the series or parallel steps.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The oil came in little glass bottles. If I recall, it was labeled "Edison
Battery Oil."
----- Original Message -----
From: "John H" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
> Your comments about NiFes make a lot of sense. The thing about exposing
the
> electrolyte to air is supposed to be solved by adding a layer of mineral
oil
> to the electrolyte. Not your everyday mineral oil, though. I'd have to
track
> down the specific kind, but it is supposed to solve that problem.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geopilot wrote:
> The goal is not to meet the form factor of current batteries or their
> weight to power ratio.
>
> The real key is can you get enough juice to run a reason electric car
> for reasonable distance and time from home made electric storage
> materials for a lot less than you can buy modern batteries.
This certainly sounds more reasonable.
> Many people have old jalopies,vans or pickups and
> can get an old forklift motor for a few hundred but will choke on
> $10,000 for batteries. If you can offer them an alternative power
> storage source that can be homemade for under $1000 then we
> have something.
Here is the problem. You are proposing home construction of a flooded
lead acid battery, so if done *really* well, it is the equivalent of a
$1000 commercial flooded pack, not a $10,000 pack. If you can't
homemake this pack for significantly less than $1000, there really isn't
much point other than to prove one could make their own pack if they
really *had* to.
If you are willing to accept a pack with 1/3 the energy density (i.e. 3x
the weight for the same energy) as commercial batteries, there are two
issues: one is that even with the "better" commercial flooded batteries,
it is difficult to fit enough into a conversion to get good range and
performance, evne when one is not concerned about remaining within the
vehicle's GVWR, another is that the heavier the vehicle, the more energy
it takes to move it, so range will be less (than a lighter vehicle with
the same energy onboard). Now, instead of 1000lbs-ish of commercial
batteries, you will need 3000lbs of homebrew ones to get similar range
(about 30mi), which is beyond the ability of most vehicles to carry
(even if you can find space for them). Such a heavy vehicle will be
very sluggish. Or, you use 1000lbs of homebrew floodeds and have 1/3
the range (about 10mi) as if you used commercial batteries.
Either way, I think it will be a very rare individual who would be
willing to accept these limitations, and an ever rarer one who would
undertake construction of his own batteries.
But, definitely keep us posted on your progress! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
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