EV Digest 6168
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Rectactor Files
by "Tom Gocze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: The Downside of driving an EV, Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: The Downside of driving an EV
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
by "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Rectactor Files
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Back to the Future
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The Downside of driving an EV
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Producing EVs for Less
by "Manu Sharma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Clutchless shifting
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Some Progress
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
by "Offgrid Engineering" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Charging in 1910
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Just posted some jpgs of rectactor/contactor controller info.
This is a little dated, but it shows the concept. Nothing new here for old
timers, but enough
people have asked me for them, so here they are.
You can jump up the voltages and incorporate a resistor inline for starting at
slightly higher voltages.
It would be simple enough to do this with 24 or 30 volt steps.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/files/
Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 7:54 PM
Subject: RE: The Downside of driving an EV
> > It is really odd to tow a car without even trying to
> > contact the owner, the police should easily be able
> > to trace the owner's address from the licence plate
> > and unless you recently moved or registered it at a
> > business address, they should see it is the house that
> > it was parked in front of.
Why didn't the Cops knock on your door?Ask about the car in
front.Sounds like you need a few of those " This Isn't an Abandoned Car
"Stickers!
>
> In Portland, a Ukranian couple came out of their condo to find a tow truck
> guy hitching up their mini-van from their own driveway. When the tow guy
> wouldn't disconnect it, the husband got a knife and sliced the tow truck's
> tire.
Hi EVerybody;
Sounds like that god awful TV show? Repro Man? On Fox or something of
that ilk. You ride with the slimeball Repro man as they sneak into yards to
take vehicles that are not paid up to date for. Loan defaulted, that sort of
thing?I feel they go over the line,sneaking around at late night hours, and
surprised that they aren't the subject line of a doublebarreled shotgun!I
guess they wouldn't show THAT scene, too messy?
But hooking somebody's car IN THEIR OWN driveway? What is this Nazi USA?I
think, if the car was legally registered, up to date tag, you have a good
lawsuit coming? Maybe enough in settlement for a set of batteries?
I know the Gestapo petrols Springfield MA, looking for cars IN YARDS
without tags! They will tow after a registered letter from the city to DO
something,Like get a plate so they can tax you. Well this is Taxachussetts,
whatdoya expect? IN your garage you're cool, though.
Cops & sheriff then showed up & presumed the guy with the knife was
> the bad guy and hauled him off...cops later said they don't take sides on
> issues of towing. Wrong. They always take the side of the tow truck guy.
> Sanctioned theft okay. Knife to tire to defend against theft---not okay
.Car Bomb definately out<g>!
> The Ukranians moved out apparently.
A reminder of life in the Old Country back in Iron Curtain daze?Too
close to home?
> Warning to all condo dwellers----don't park beyond your driveway
> cement...you could get towed.
> Yeah! Condos! They have their own idea of rules. Scary! A guy had to go to
court to fight displaying an AMERICAN flag!On his crappy building! I could
see if it were a North Korean or Iranian one? Hell, most Americans wouldn't
be able to tell what it was anyhow, or find the above places on a map?.You
give up alota rights buying into those things!
Hope ya can get a good settlement on getting your car back!?
My two watts worth.
Bob
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.14/548 - Release Date: 11/23/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As someone mentioned... different towns, different laws.
Locally, you can park for up to 3 days on the street w/o moving the vehicle.
(They warn you... and can tow it a short time later.) Exceptions are
supposed to be expired tags, blocking a sidewalk, crosswalk, or similar. In
the neighboring city, "disabled" (as in a flat tire) can get your car towed
in some neighborhoods, after notification or a sticker on the car. They
never bother, unless someone reports the car.
For a while, locally, you couldn't have a car w/ expired tags on your
property. I had a Charger parked next to my house, under a portable
"garage". A guy stopped by my house (apparently snooped under the covers)
and offered $200 for it... and I guess he didn't like the way I laughed in
his face. The next day, an officer showed up at my door saying I had a week
to get rid of it or face a fine & have it towed away. (Of course, licensing
it would mean insurance, inspection, etc, for a car that was being restored.
I moved it to my new home, outside the city.) This rule was removed, when
they found collusion between tow-truck operations and reports.
Locally, the apparent rule for old cars is to keep them in your garage... or
be old and mean... even older and meaner than I am. <g>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: The Downside of driving an EV
> Was it parked illegally or not properly registered, or something? If not,
> then I don't think they have the right to charge you for stealling your
> vehicle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: Newbie question about batteries
> Geopilot wrote:
>
> > The goal is not to meet the form factor of current batteries or their
> > weight to power ratio.
> >
> > The real key is can you get enough juice to run a reason electric car
> > for reasonable distance and time from home made electric storage
> > materials for a lot less than you can buy modern batteries.
>
> This certainly sounds more reasonable.
>
> > Many people have old jalopies,vans or pickups and
> > can get an old forklift motor for a few hundred but will choke on
> > $10,000 for batteries. If you can offer them an alternative power
> > storage source that can be homemade for under $1000 then we
> > have something.
Hi EVerybody;
Sure a lot of fadarah of late about building your own batteries. EVer
visited a battery factory? See what a pain in the ass it would be to
replicate it?10k for a battery pack is a bit much for a newbee,OLDbee,
too!Nobody else has mentioned shopping about for used batteries. I got 20
T-105 takeouts from my local battery guy. The guy who will solder on a new
post for you, if needed. Spent 400 bux, thought I had done well, got about
18 k miles out of them, too! Only did 2k better with NEW ones. With my
homemade Rectacter controller and charger,I was EVing on the cheap! The BIG
ticket item was the 900 dollar motor a ADC 9". Paying my machinist a couple
hundred bux for a plate and coupler so I could bolt things together.HAD the
plate, just modded it from a VW Bug to a Rabbit bellhousing.Perhaps had I
tried a few junkyards for a forktruck motor?Coulda come in cheaper. But I
know the ADC would be the end of my motor issues. I had a Baldor at first,
but it died of Overworking in a few weaks!Damn Baldor was as BIG as an ADC,
but just couldn't hack it.
My two cells worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph,
I ran it hard today for a test, and it upshifts faster than I could using a
clutch, I am sure, less than a second. On the downshift, you give it a
little accelerator and it falls in just as easily. There is no training
necessary for new drivers, without the clutch/flywheel spinning around, you
don't have to wait on the synchronizers, it just shifts right away. Really
has helped this car. Wasted a lot of energy getting that clutch/flywheel
spinning every time off the line, glad they are gone now.
JLC
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
> Jay, I have been trying to tell people this for a long time! You explain
it
> so much better, because you've had it both ways!
>
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jay Caplan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 7:21 AM
> Subject: Going Clutchless - The Fat Lady Sings !
>
>
> > Bob,
> > I had the same vibration from a flywheel maybe a little bit warped on my
> 79
> > LeCar (16xT105, Curtis 400A, stock Prestolite MTA-4001 with 10 degree
> > advanced timing) - very aggravating. So, I was thinking, why do we use
> > clutches anyway with electric motors and PWM controllers? I can see how
> they
> > might be needed for parking using contactors, but with controllers ....?
> >
> > Pulled the motor, threw away the pressure plate, throwout bearing,
clutch
> > disk, flywheel, taper adapter - about 22 lbs of steel - big inertial
drag
> at
> > startup and slowdown, huge pile of angular momentum.
> >
> > Replaced it with a ~1 lb adapter made from 2" steel bar. We bored it
> through
> > to fit the motor shaft 1.125", cut a keyway and put in some headless set
> > screws. On the other end, turned the splined hub from the clutch disk to
> the
> > same 1.125 diameter, cut some chamfers for weld bead, pressed it into
the
> > adapter and welded it all around , then faced it off on a mill. This
hooks
> > the motor to the splined trans shaft.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/727
> > some pictures here, contact me off list if you want to see some more
> > pictures or details or to have an adapter made.
> >
> > OK, the results - it is a lot faster off the line, especially the 0-10
> mph,
> > slows down sooner when you are coasting to traffic lights (saves
braking),
> > and SHIFTS LIKE A DREAM. I mean, it just flops into gear, the
> synchronizers
> > have so much less mass to slow down. Upshifts in 1 second, downshifts in
2
> > seconds. Much peppier. And NO VIBRATION.
> >
> > So, someone tell me, why not clutchless for everyone?
> > Jay
> >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chris Sutton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2006 1:03 AM
> > > Subject: Motor Vibration
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have been trying to track down the source of a vibration I believe
> > > > is coming from my 8" ADC Motor. The vibration starts around 3k RPMS
> > > > and happens in all gears. I have had my flywheel zero balanced, and
> > > > have a new pressure plate and clutch.
> > -------
> > > > So, my question is, could this cause the vibration, or is there
> > > > potential for error in my measurements?
> > > >
> > > > Any suggestions? Can this be fixed? Is this normal?
> > > >
> > > > Chris Sutton
> > > > Seattle, WA
> > > >
> > > > Hi Chris;
> > >
> > > I went through this opera for years, on my Rabbit!Thought it was my
> > > tranny, flywheel, just lived with it til it got as loud as a Diseasel
> > > Rabbit. Would change out the tranny, no fix. My motor bearings would
> wear
> > > out in 30k miles, all that. So I FINALLY had the 12 lb Rabbit flywheel
> > > machined down to 6 lbs, who NEEDS a ring gear in an EV, anyhow? The
> > > machinist an' I watched POUNDS of scrap steel peel away, very
> gratifying!
> > > After all this, new motor bearings, comm cut and polished,a stronger
> > > pressure plate, and disc, put the whole assembly together. The motor
> > > armature,the taper lock, flywheel, and pressure plate TOGETHER as it
> would
> > > be in the car. Schlepped it down to a gas rig speed shop. Gas guyz run
> at
> > > higher speeds than we, I mean RACING gas stuff.He set it up, in a
thing
> a
> > > crankshaft just came out of. Spun it up to whatEVer it took to get a
> > balance
> > > reading. IT WAS out of balance when it was asssembled. The motor
> armature
> > > was OK by itself, the Warfield folks took care of that, already. But
> when
> > ya
> > > put all this scrap iron together it sure as hell isn't!Yeah I had a
bit
> of
> > > runout, too, like you, but I let the guy just BALANCE the whole thing
as
> > it
> > > would live in the car.
> > >
> > > Results, WOW! Glass smooth the stuff EV grins are made of. Instant
> > > throttle response! Lay rubber in second just by flooring it! John
> Wayland
> > > did! We would still be honeymooning had I not wrecked it towing it
home
> > from
> > > Joliet.The lightened flywheel makes a differance. Probably woulda torn
> up
> > > the tranny by now<g>?
> > >
> > > So,.....bottom line; Balance EVerything ,put together, oh, don't
put
> > the
> > > clutch disc in while doing this, because you will NEVER get it
> > centered!!It
> > > will center when you put the thing together , when you re install the
> > motor.
> > >
> > > Happy smooooth motoring!
> > >
> > > Bob
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.430 / Virus Database: 268.14.15/550 - Release Date:
> 11/24/2006 5:20 PM
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Gocze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:09 PM
Subject: Rectactor Files
> Just posted some jpgs of rectactor/contactor controller info.
> This is a little dated, but it shows the concept. Nothing new here for old
timers, but enough
> people have asked me for them, so here they are.
> You can jump up the voltages and incorporate a resistor inline for
starting at slightly higher voltages.
> It would be simple enough to do this with 24 or 30 volt steps.
>
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/files/
>
> Tom
> Hi EVerybody;
A Rectacter is a nice way to go! Had a three point one in the Rabbit at
first, did fine, but don't EVen THINK of a clutchless setup with it!It will
rattle your fillings out!By using the clutch you can do just as smoothly as
a stick shift, A 5 speed will give ya 15 speeds with a series/ series/
Parallel and Parallel setup. In the Rabbit I would start off at 30 volts
second gear, slip the clutch, series parallel, 60 volts, in the same launch.
Maybe do 60 volts at 3rd or forth? Depending on traffic conditions. At 60
volts was getting a two to one current multiplication. Nice to see the volts
hang at 60, NO sag!Playing around with gears ratio for the best conditions,
amp wise, was sorta fun. Like sailing to windward in a sailboat, takes a bit
of easily learned skill.
A Cheap and dirty 2 speed series and Parallel and series setup you could
do it on the cheap?WITH your clutch an' tranny.Til ya save up enough to buy
that Zilla of yur dreams!
Bob
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.14/548 - Release Date: 11/23/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looking into this further, it looks like Marathon (Chatterton factory) may
still produce this oil. The company may not be producing it for long. If I
understand it correctly, it looks like it's the same oil used in
transformers. These are being phased out, as I heard, quickly as possible
due to PCBs (in the transformers, not batts.)
These have always been interesting to me, since they can operate (even under
unprotected conditions) for 30 years or so. My uncle has an old RR crossing
signal that has one of these batt sets. (They were used as backup power,
since lines often went down. They were pulled by the 70's due to their
maintenance.)
LA batts can last that long, in a protected environment. It wasn't uncommon
for DCE (telephone) batts to last 30 years and more... still in "perfect"
operation. Our exchange in Panama was 30 years old. Though they looked new,
I had doubts about their service life after so many years, so we cut power
and ran on batts for an hour or so. This 2000 line AE exchange drew a *lot*
of power... having grown from 1100 lines. They were still above op specs
after this time... and the only maintenance was to dust/check them
monthly... adding water every 3 months or so. (This installation was also
over built, compared to other installations.) That's the difference in
stationary batts. They seldom get a load and are heavy because of their
max-load requirement. The biggest danger was the charger/rectifier circuit.
Get rained on and you'd best keep 5' away. <g>
A couple years later, I was on an installation team. One job was upgrading
from Edison type batts in a *really* old exchange. They were swapped out for
LA due to the lower maintenance requirements... as opposed to rebuilding the
existing cells. The new cells looked tiny in comparison to what was pulled.
I think a lack of parts was probably another reason for the swap... and that
was 30 years ago.
As I recall, it took Edison something like 30K tries before he came out with
his first design... which started failing right away... and another 20K
tries (6-8 years?) before he came out with the final product. It was great
technology for certain uses, but the EV was mostly a dead technology by that
time... too slow and expensive. Edison's companies made a fortune for
stationary batts, though.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 6:40 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
> The oil came in little glass bottles. If I recall, it was labeled "Edison
> Battery Oil."
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John H" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 3:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Newbie question about batteries
>
>
> > Your comments about NiFes make a lot of sense. The thing about exposing
> the
> > electrolyte to air is supposed to be solved by adding a layer of mineral
> oil
> > to the electrolyte. Not your everyday mineral oil, though. I'd have to
> track
> > down the specific kind, but it is supposed to solve that problem.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just returned from a trip back to the future and I found it quite amazing
that he EV List is now concentrating on clutchless EVs, contactor
controllers and charging stations from 1910. It made me realized I should
have stayed in the country I was visiting.
Roderick Wilde
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.14/548 - Release Date: 11/23/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like I indeed forgot to pay the registration last month.
Apparently this absolves them from having to ticket it or mark the tires
and wait. I still think towing it on thanksgiving evening is outside the
realm of "Serve and Protect", rather low down and reaks of just trying
to make money. We are kinda known for having semi corrupt cops with
kickback associations to the tow companies in this town.
I only mentioned on this list because driving an EV makes it easy to
forget about that other car and "tis the season". So be careful out there!
I have managed to make it from the first of the year with 2 tanks of gas
(1 still in the towed car) and not having purchased any gasoline in the
last 4 months.
I learned yesterday how bad the emeter is and how much a difference a
warm pack makes.
I drove to breakfast in the morning then recharged and the pack was a
little warmed up from use, plus the sun came out, it just kept charging
and charging. It never got full and I drove the 12 miles one way a
little nervously but fine. It then took a full 6 hours at 4amps into the
pack to recharge (didn't want to pop a breaker) 300V*4ams is 1.2 kwh/hr
and it needed 5kwh for the drive, the rest was just to fill up. I did
finally reproduce the slowdown problem and it is indeed an inadequate
cooling system for the zilla. I will have to put a fan on it and see if
that helps and maybe try a different pump.
I know the mileage sucks, I really got to figure that out. Google maps
says 13.5 miles, odometer says 12 miles that is either 370wh/mile or 416
wh/mile :-(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geopilot wrote:
The goal is not to meet the form factor of current batteries or their
weight to power ratio.
The real key is can you get enough juice to run a reason electric car
for reasonable distance and time from home made electric storage
materials for a lot less than you can buy modern batteries. The WH/KG
ratio is far down that list. I don't care if it has a triple KG ratio
if i could build them for 10% of the wh cost and just shove them all
in a van. 0 to 60 is not most people's goal.
You can't though. Look at the price of lead! The higher the Wh/Kg ratio,
the more effectively you are using x dollars of lead. If you have triple
the mass, you're paying 3x the cost. A quick check of McMaster-Carr
shows lead to be ~$2/lb for a 60lb ingot. Can you buy it cheaper? A
T-105 weighs 62 pounds and costs around $80. How can you beat that?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 24, 2006, at 11:22 AM, John Wayland wrote:
From Tony Hwang:
Shifting with the clutchless design is slower than with a clutch.
These are the steps involved:
Release the accelerator pedal Shift into neutral Push the
gearshift lightly toward the gear you want Wait for the
synchromech in the gear box to either speed up or slow down the motor
until it matches speeds and drops into gear You may now step on
the accelerator pedal again
Yeah, this is pretty accurate. When in my EV formative years way back
in the electric car dark ages of 1980, I tried this method with my 48V
contactor controlled 4 speed Datsun. It 'worked', but it was anything
but elegant. Shifting was exactly as Tony has described.
If one never drives their EV in a spirited manor, and instead of a fun
playmate your vehicle is merely an appliance to get you from point A
to point B, and if you don't care about having to follow a 'procedure'
in order to change gears without forcing things, going clutchless can
work for you. I imagine the type that accepts a whining, under-powered
lower tech Curtis 1231C controller, or a crude contactor rectactor
type jerking controller, an over-weight heavy pack of oozing,
corrosion producing wet cells mandating 3000+ lbs. of weight in a
smaller sized car, and 0-60 in 17-20 seconds as being OK, wouldn't
mind the clutchless shifting thing at all.
For the others out there (what I call the new breed of EVers) who want
their EV to look good, handle good, and perform well, none of the
above is acceptable. These are the type that want a silent and
powerful Zilla or DC Power systems controller, the type that would
never accept fizzling acid spraying wet cell batteries and prefer
maintenance-free powerful 12V AGMs like Hawkers, Optimas and Orbitals,
the type that want their EV to be at least as snappy as it was a gas
car, the type that would spend money on a hot sound system, the type
that care about the condition of the body and interior, and yes, the
type that wants to have a little fun and passion thrown into the
design of their EV!
Well, there is a little more to it. Smaller motors and light shaft
adapters will work better without a clutch. Some gear boxes will
absolutely cry if you try to go without a clutch, others are quite
stout and do much better. (...)
What - my buggy is an appliance? <G>
The clutch is suspiciously missing from my EV Buggy. Of course it *is*
Curtis powered (minus the squeal!) Its not a hot rod, but its certainly
not slow. Its done a few 70 mph freeway trips to work - cars with tail
pipes please move right.
John's very passionate about his EVs. There are a number of working
solutions. In fact, I notice the White Zombie lacks a clutch too...
Paul "neon" G. (doing a little ribbing today :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I'm an EV enthusiast based in New Delhi region, India. While I'm still very
much a newbie when it comes to the technical aspects, there are a couple of
things I wanted to talk about that I thought the list would find interesting.
One is about cost of production and second a new battery technology.
1. Outsourcing from India
I just wanted to point out that while volume production is often cited as the
major obstacle preventing EVs from becoming cost competitive, that alone is not
the only way to reduce cost of production. It can very well be done by
offshoring manufacturing or sourcing of components to cost competitive nations
such as India or China.
- manufacturing
We already know that the auto industry isn't interested in producing EVs, so
this seems to me the only way to make them cost competitive in the short term.
I might add that India is already a big auto components manufacturing hub with
several large manufacturers (including top names like Ferrari) that source
components from here or have manufacturing facilities. So quality or
reliability isn't an issue. India also happens to be one of the few countries
mass producing EVs for several years (Reva, known as GWiz in UK). So, if there
are any entrepreneurs on the list, they should keep this option in mind.
- components
I'd like to find out from you folks if anyone has tried sourcing components
from India or China. Electric motors (whether DC or AC) seem to me a good
candidate for this. Batteries, controllers and chargers are best sourced
locally since batteries may be too expensive to ship and I'm not sure that
suitable controllers/chargers can be found here. Getting them custom built may
be an option that can be explored if feasible. But there are lots of companies
here making motors of all kinds and sizes that might be cheaper than current
alternatives even including shipping cost.
If someone can point me to / provide detailed specs and prices of motors
currently used in conversions, I can find out from manufacturers prices for
comparable motors. Most EV sites I've seen do not have detailed motor
specifications (things like weight) that I can take to a manufacturer. I'd also
appreciate if someone can provide background information for these motors...are
all of them made specifically for EVs? What other industrial applications
(apart from golf carts or forklift trucks, which I understand aren't suitable)
that employ these motors?
2. New battery technology
I've come across a new energy storage technology that would cost about as much
as lead-acid batteries or lower (even when produced in small quantities) but
has significantly higher specific energy and about the same energy density as
lead-acid batteries. Note that it's NOT an out-in-the-future promising
technology that will achieve this next year but something that can be
implemented today. Also note that the claim of cost competitiveness isn't based
on a manufacturer's claim but on the nature of the manufacturing process (read
cheaper materials). It's also a scientifically validated invention which means,
a university lab has tested, validated and improved upon this technology.
In another country this would have been recognised as a breakthrough.
Unfortunately, it has not been taken up by the industry here perhaps because
much of its benefit is for EV applications and there's no EV "industry" here,
not even a niche community. If there are any serious investors on the list who
may be interested, please contact me off-list. This has fairly low investment
requirements.
Thanks,
Manu Sharma
User Experience Consultant
http://orangehues.com/blog
B-985, Palam Vihar
Gurgaon, India 122017
Mob: +91.9811576772
Ph: +91.124.4074153
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee is correct. My EV is more susceptible to this than most.
It Does depend on the vehicle.
I have a 9" on a 288V pack with a 6lb clutch and flywheel combo, and a
zilla 1K. There is nothing on the aux shaft. I once had it almost in
gear and began to step on the accelerator, I realized it, and let off
and it was still spining so fast I had to wait to put it in gear. I was
very surprised.
Sorry if I scared anyone, but I would rather warn of a potential problem
than advocate using the accelerator at all while out of gear.(or clutch
in) Which is what I thought I read into a recent post.
I have to shift a lot, the ratio is just a little wrong. but I pull it
down into 2nd as I approach the light and use the clutch only when I
shift into third at around 35mph.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Splerge here! New Subject line<g>!Thought I'd cover a bit of progress with
my EV collection. The Jetta, Rabbit replacement actually MOVED under it's own
power, today. With this tropical weather we have been having, got out and
fabbed a few new motor tranny mounts in the 88 Jetta.Motor was hung up, looking
about level, replaced a few shifter linkage plastic bushings. You guyz that
have EVer worked on older Rabbits an' Jettas know what I mean.Gees! Nissan sure
has VW beat on shift linkage!To adjust the VW is sure a pain in the ass, with
playing with that silly splined shaft, where a gnat's hair off and it won't
shift right! In a Nissan just put the bolt through the shaft hookup and you are
done!
Motor hooked up, lets try it! Got 24 volts worth of Dynasty 12 volters
dropped in the front, jumper cables and run 'er up, in neutral, of course. Slip
into the driver's seat in eager antisipation. GRIND! oops! Gotta tighten the
clutch cable, should shift now? It did, backed off the ramps, rolled out of the
garage. Damn, pulls sorta hard?Those who have seen my place know I have a
gravel driveway. Wanna cruise up an' down my 600' driveway. STILL pulling hard?
Damn, maybe I have a block under the wheel? No! Wheel , Right rear, wheel
dousn't TURN! Dragging it, locked up.! This is gunna raise hell with my rolling
resistance! It's DARK, now. Guess first thing, in the AM will be to bust loose
that wheel? It rolled a few months ago when I pushed the damn car into the
garage. Maybe the brake cable is rusted? Shoes stuck to the wheel? Had this
same issue with the 78 Sentra, too, only it was the front discs. Replaced BOTH
calipers, so the car rolls great.
The OTHER Sentra, the 97, has made some progress as reported before. Made a
Aluminum 3/4 inch thick plate, drawing the tranny outline on the plate, sawed
it with table saw, Band saw and Jig saw. Got it looking decent enough to take
it over to my machinist, to cut a centered hole to mount the motor. I'm using a
9 " Impulse motor from Warfield. He spun me a pretty coupling to fit the Nissan
Flywheel. EVerything SHOULD fit together, when I get another 9" motor? Should
be here in a dew daze. Sold the one I had in the living room for about a year.
You know they are nice and clean, an object' de art, anyhow. "That's a CAR
motor?" people will say, on seeing it." Kinda Small for a car?"You go through
the splainin' it's a torque thing it WILL run a car!It is a pretty tomato red
flavor, a nice addition to a industrial motif room, anyhow.
Tomorrow should get it set up so it runs smoothly, ALL wheels turning, so I
can go ahead with Sawzall and start battery box hacking? Figuring about 132
volts or so, a bit more soup than the Rabbit? And the PFC -30 SHOULD charge
it?In putting my weight on the rear Jetta bumper I KNOW I'll need stronger
springs back there!Anybody ELSE done a Jetta? What bolt in springs fit right
in?Bettya there ARE some that drop right in for a few hundred lbs more lift?The
ass will be draggin' with a trunk full of batteries!I plan on ALL the batteries
OUT of the passenger cabin, this time around! Stock seats will be in place.
Gunna try a Hot water setup for heat, so I don't hafta take the damn heater
core apart, this time!My chargin setup will use the VW filler cover so I can
stick my other " Boycott OPEC Use Electric Fuel" sticker. All the machinery
will be under the hood.I WILL have a shallow, but useful trunk. If ya have seen
my 78 Sentra,? Same idea.Ten batteries nestle just nicely bet!
ween the frame rails, dropped down as low as the modesty panel. I COULD go
lower, but I don't want the battery box the FIRST thing that gets gunched in a
sloppy backup move.I should have a decent performance Gofur car?
Back in the early spring, I took my Rabbit flywheel down to my machinist guy
for a weight reduction pogram. We set it up in the big ass lathe and started
peeling; Off came the ring gear, and a helova pile of metal shavings! To the
tune of12 lbs. Shaved the Rabbit'wheel down to 6 lbs! With the GTI Pressure
plate and clutch it sure made a differance! That nice smoky breakstand wouldn't
have been possable at Joliet, or anywhere else, with my stock Diseasel plate
and clutch! Was SO cool that the FVEAA folks captured it on their "Electric
Ave" Joliet Vid!! Many thanks, guyz! I wasn't sure anybody cought that. I'm
surprised that it DID that. I spelled it "Break" stand, forsure SOMETHING was
gunna break?Figuring I'd be towing it home busted?Hmmm? Jetta should do as
well?With a few more volts EVen.Yes! A noticable differance being 12 lbs
lighter in the flywheel dept.With the old heavy wheel I could speed shift
without backing down on the power! Don't try this at home, though. Mi!
ss a shift and you will be shipping Jim a blown out armature!So be damn SURE
you can do it smoothly and quickly. Not gunna try it NOW, though! But with a
good 500 amps It should take off fast enough?Never DID find out what it woulda
done in the quarter? Sigh!Should finish it up and take it to Battery Beach
Burnout on the Auto Train?It's a 300 mile TOW to GET to the danm train, though,
for me. For you DC guyz, hell? Give Amtrak a call! All you would have to run to
is Lorton VA just out side DC. Go for it! But call Amtrak now! They fill up
fast. But you know, nobody rides the train, nowadaze? Like nobody would buy an
electric car.Try to get Pullman(Sleeper) for you young 'uns, space on the
Transcon trains. Good Luck! Disclaimer I DID work for Amtrak, and all that.
Sooo, I hope to have 3 cars WITH motors installed, able to be driven at
20-30 volts for showing off and testing that EVerything shifts and clutches
smooth, 2 down, one to go.Then battery box time!Hook up the Rapture controllers
and a test program. Should always keep a nice juicy electric at home ready to
goWhen they are debugged and finished, I guess they will be looking for
adoption? But nobody WANTS an Electric Car, anyhow<g>!If they work out as
intended finding loving homes for them will be the least issue.And I haven't
EVen hauled the Sundance out of the shed yet!Thought I'd use that as a test
mule for the Nicads? After I see how well Dave Cover's work out. I KNOW that
the nicads would work FINE in my almost restored Electrac?
Retired? Hell! Never been busier! Got so damn MANY things going here!Have
about 6 OTHER unrestored Electracs to go, still.And if my friendly Junkyard
comes up with more nice gliders? HE knows what I'm looking for, never know? Can
you say" Cottage Industry", here? I am blessed with a place out in the woods
suitable for this. No condos even ALLOWED in this here town.Anybody want a
Sundance engine? Come an' get it! Haven't "Shucked " it yet.Still runs,
although at last startup, it pissed gas all over the place!
Dispite global warming, it CAN'T stay in the 50's forever? Trying to get the
outdoorsy stuff done, can heat my wimpy one car garage. Better than a 0 car
garage, though!Can sorta heat it in cold weather so may be able to finish a few
soon?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
max pv area = approx 20' X 7'
not sure what top down view roof surface area is, this is a drag racer,
custom built...
eff = approx 17.6%
lat = about 47
solar = 1000w/sq m nominal
Why do you ask? Now you have my curiosity...
-----Original Message-----
From: Geopilot [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 5:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
Just curious
what is your total "over the curve" pv area
and what is your actual top down view roof surface area?
what is your cell efficiency and what latitude will the race be run?
what is the expect solar power per sq in the race zone?
Offgrid Engineering wrote:
> Thanks Peter:
>
> Even with a pwm controller and a series wound motor, because we only
> have 2KW max power available from the pv, one would want to lower
> voltage to get more current (a buck topology) to get higher torque,
> right? At 56V, the max current available from pv is only about 32
> amps. We need more than that to accelerate from the starting line, so
design goal is for 100+ amps.
>
> I agree that torque is key, so the key is to produce max torque at all
> speeds. The AGNI motor models out to:
> 30Nm at 6V/160A (eff = 16%)
> 26Nm at 11V/150A, (eff = 63%)
> 19Nm at 17V/113A, (eff = 78%)
> 14Nm at 22V/85 A, (eff = 84%)
> 11Nm at 27V/68 A, (eff = 86%)
> 9Nm at 33V/56A, (eff = 88%)
> and so forth, finally ending at:
> 3.5Nm at 56V/34A (eff = 90%)
>
> Note that these are the max available currents from the pv, if a buck
> switching regulator is used, with 2KW. There may be a configuration
> with only 1.2KW available!!
>
> Can I get that kind of torque from a series wound with that much
> current available?? Any idea which one?
>
> Thanks again
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter VanDerWal [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, November 23, 2006 12:35 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
>
> You might want to consider using a series motor and controller instead.
>
> Drag racing is mostly about torque, rather than efficiency. Series
> wound motors are the kings of torque.
> With this setup you wouldn't need to worry about switching from 12V to
> 56V, the motor and controller will take care of that for you.
>
> You'd have to experiment, but adding the low ESR capacitors might
> improve the performance. Then again, the judges might decide that the
> capacitors constitute an energy storage system.
>
>
>> Hello all:
>> Happy turkey day!!
>>
>> WE are a high school student team who is building a car to compete in
>> a solar car drag race.
>> The power is supplied only by solar, no energy storage is allowed.
>> We are in need of a motor.
>>
>> The specs are:
>> overall weight of car = 630 lbs
>> electric power available = about 2000w at Vmp = 56VDC Max point power
>> tracker (MPPT) = will be used if needed, array direct is preferred.
>> Gearing on car, will be used if needed, depending on motor torque,
>> rpm (CVT possible but simple bike gearing for simplicity is
>> preferred) Distance of race = 1/4km Desired speed at end = AS fast as
possible!!
>> (24mph?) Current available at beginning of race to accelerate = about
>> 120 amps at 12V Current available at end of race to accelerate =
>> about
>> 32 amps at 56V
>>
>>
>> I have looked at the hub motors, they don't have a very high
>> efficiency across the 0 - full rpm range that we would get from a
>> external motor with a transmission with 2 or 3 speeds.
>>
>> Brushless motors are interesting, but the motor controllers for the
>> power range we need usually current limit way before 120 amps. I
>> don't believe induction motors with inverter will be efficient enough.
>>
>> So I like pancake motors, and of these the part with the highest
>> efficiency spec, (looked at Lemco, Perm Motor, Scott, and Etek)
>> appears to be AGNI motor at:
>> http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view
>> &
>> id=30&
>> Itemid=42
>>
>> These are pricey at 1339 USD, but they are available and seem to come
>> from a good gene pool.
>>
>> We plan to accelerate at the start using about 12V and high current,
>> then shift to a higher voltage to allow the RPM's to come up.
>> Connecting to the array directly at some point (and monitoring with a
>> micro to keep the Vmp at 56V) will allow max power transfer to the
>> motor.
>>
>> My question is, do we have the right motor, is there a better one,
>> and if so is it in stock and available.
>> We don't want anything made of unobtaniuim (read: very expensive or
>> not available)?? Also any drive ideas will be welcome of course!!
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks much (for reading this far!)
>>
>> Tim Economu
>> 2006 South Whidbey Solar car Drag Team [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now youre talkin!
On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 7:21 pm, Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 9:32 PM
Subject: RE: Newbie question about batteries
Geopilot wrote:
> The goal is not to meet the form factor of current batteries or
their
> weight to power ratio.
>
> The real key is can you get enough juice to run a reason electric
car
> for reasonable distance and time from home made electric storage
> materials for a lot less than you can buy modern batteries.
This certainly sounds more reasonable.
> Many people have old jalopies,vans or pickups and
> can get an old forklift motor for a few hundred but will choke on
> $10,000 for batteries. If you can offer them an alternative power
> storage source that can be homemade for under $1000 then we
> have something.
Hi EVerybody;
Sure a lot of fadarah of late about building your own batteries.
EVer
visited a battery factory? See what a pain in the ass it would be to
replicate it?10k for a battery pack is a bit much for a newbee,OLDbee,
too!Nobody else has mentioned shopping about for used batteries. I got
20
T-105 takeouts from my local battery guy. The guy who will solder on a
new
post for you, if needed. Spent 400 bux, thought I had done well, got
about
18 k miles out of them, too! Only did 2k better with NEW ones. With my
homemade Rectacter controller and charger,I was EVing on the cheap! The
BIG
ticket item was the 900 dollar motor a ADC 9". Paying my machinist a
couple
hundred bux for a plate and coupler so I could bolt things together.HAD
the
plate, just modded it from a VW Bug to a Rabbit bellhousing.Perhaps had
I
tried a few junkyards for a forktruck motor?Coulda come in cheaper. But
I
know the ADC would be the end of my motor issues. I had a Baldor at
first,
but it died of Overworking in a few weaks!Damn Baldor was as BIG as an
ADC,
but just couldn't hack it.
My two cells worth
Bob
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland,
If the lights were in series, I would expect the opposite,
that the lights would start bright as the voltage of the
battery was low, so the difference with the incoming line
voltage would be maximum and this being the voltage on the
lights.
As the batteries charged and reached their max voltage, the
difference with the incoming line voltage would drop and
eventually the lights would be very dim = battery charged.
Maybe I misunderstood you,
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 6:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charging in 1910
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 6:38 PM
Subject: RE: Charging in 1910
Another way the EV's in 1910 or prior to that, when the house wiring was all
DC which was normally just lights, that the battery pack voltage maximum
voltage was size to the voltage of the DC incoming lines.
There would be a bank of light switches in one room of the house that
connected a series of light bulbs in the house in series with the batteries
being charge.
If the batteries are discharge, the lights in that one room or rooms would
be dim. As the batteries are being charge, the lights would get brighter
and brighter.
At full brightness, then they new the batteries where over 95 percent
charge. How simple can that be.
Roland
--- End Message ---
