EV Digest 6169
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
by "Kip C Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Charging in 1910
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: "Who Killed the Electric Car" at Safeway
by "Manu Sharma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor selection for 2KW PV solar only drag race = LONG
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Charging speed
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) The KAZ looks like a hybrid mutant child of a ballistic missle and
a bus,
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) How to convert an electric scooter to a solar scooter
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) F3e Concept Electric Car Powered by Iron-based Battery
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) =?windows-1252?Q?The_XR3_Hybrid_is_a_super-fuel-effici?=
=?windows-1252?Q?ent_two-passenger_=93personal_mobility_vehicle=94?=
=?windows-1252?Q?_?=
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) cool conversion old school styling
by Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Back to the Future
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New Direction for GM: "Think EV-2" ?!?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New website created
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: New website created
by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New website created
by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) CC design, Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: cool conversion old school styling
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) "We Were Warned" on CNN Today & Sunday, SOT
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) How do decrease Wh/mile
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Charging speed
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: From Cloud to Jeff - Correction
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: From Cloud to Jeff - Correction
by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Charging speed
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Who Killed the Electric Car
by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: How do decrease Wh/mile
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: How do decrease Wh/mile
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I'm really liking this thread. I, like most of us, have a limited budget,
and would rather spend extra money on my batteries and motor than on a fancy
controller if something less sophisticated will meet my needs.
So can somebody produce a simple schematic that reflects Jerry's S/P-dual
motor-field weakened concept? The S/P part is easy enough, but I'm not
clear how the other two factors are leveraged for smoother starting and
higher top-end.
-
Kip
86 MR2 EV in progress in Eugene
----- Original Message -----
From: "Geopilot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 5:28 PM
Subject: Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
Yes!
Now there's a guy who thinks like a true EV home made hacker.
gotta get away from this "high tech" mode of thinking and back down to
what can handle big amps for dirt cheap.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I remember they wrote that the lights are bright when the battery is charge.
The incoming line voltage should remain about the same, or the whole block
of houses on the same line would be dim.
Lets say you took three 120 volt 60 watt lamps in series on a 120 volt line,
you will have about 40 volts across each lamp making it a 20 watt lamp. A
discharge 24 volt battery with increase resistance is then put in series
with the three lamps and now the voltage across each lamp and the battery is
lower than 40 volts or closer to 30 volts.
As the battery is charge and becoming move conductive, the lamps should
increase in voltage and wattage.
You have to experiment to see if this is true.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 10:04 PM
Subject: RE: Charging in 1910
> Hi Roland,
> If the lights were in series, I would expect the opposite,
> that the lights would start bright as the voltage of the
> battery was low, so the difference with the incoming line
> voltage would be maximum and this being the voltage on the
> lights.
> As the batteries charged and reached their max voltage, the
> difference with the incoming line voltage would drop and
> eventually the lights would be very dim = battery charged.
>
> Maybe I misunderstood you,
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 6:11 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Charging in 1910
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 6:38 PM
> Subject: RE: Charging in 1910
>
>
> Another way the EV's in 1910 or prior to that, when the house wiring was
> all
>
> DC which was normally just lights, that the battery pack voltage maximum
> voltage was size to the voltage of the DC incoming lines.
>
> There would be a bank of light switches in one room of the house that
> connected a series of light bulbs in the house in series with the
> batteries
> being charge.
>
> If the batteries are discharge, the lights in that one room or rooms would
> be dim. As the batteries are being charge, the lights would get brighter
> and brighter.
>
> At full brightness, then they new the batteries where over 95 percent
> charge. How simple can that be.
>
> Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I was at the our local Safeway store tonight and noticed that they
are renting "Who Killed the Electric Car" on DVD. [...] Can any of
you tell me if this is true? Is this movie available at your
local Safeway? Inquiring minds would like to know.
"Who Killed The Electric Car" was released on DVD earlier this
month. Torrents of the movie are available for download.
http://btjunkie.org/search?o=62&query=who+killed+the+electric+car
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Offgrid Engineering wrote:
> I think PMDC is a good choice, but a series motor might be good too
Your solar dragster is a special-case problem, because your PV panels
are the only source of power, and they are a constant power device.
Loading them heavier or lighter than optimum produces less power, which
means you accellerate slower (and lose the race).
So, you want your motor/controller/transmission to load the panels at
(about) their peak power point throughout the race, as the car
accellerates from 0 to maximum speed.
Here's how I was approaching the problem:
1. The most efficient controller is NONE. A DC motor, connected
directly to the PV panels. The throttle is just an "on/off" switch.
2. The peak power point occurs at a particular voltage and curent.
3. So, the motor will run at a constant voltage and current. That
implies constant rpm and torque, regardless of vehicle speed.
4. And that implies a CVT (continuously variable transmission).
5. Do some calculations using your PV panel's peak power (2kw?),
motor efficiency at that power (90%?), and the weight of the
car+driver. Find the resultant wheel rpm vs. time with this
constant horsepower.
6. Now, using the motor's constant rpm at this power, you can compute
the CVT ratio as a function of time, to keep the motor loaded to
its correct speed and torque.
7. Design the pulleys of your CVT to achieve this change in ratios.
You can have the ratio change linearly by using a flat band, or
have it change exponentially with a wire that winds up zig-zag
fashion between two unequal-width spools.
> In Excel we modeled the "simple CVT" you suggest and it is a fairly
> linear proportion curve. When you overlay this curve over the
> exponential torque curve from a motor, the two do not line up very
> well.
You're missing that you have a fixed power from the PV panel. Therefore,
the motor has only one operating point. There is no torque-speed curve;
just one operating point for maximum accelleration.
Now, you could use a PWM controller to vary motor voltage while
maintaining peak power loading of the PV panels. But I think you will
find that this automatically means running the motor at points away from
its peak efficiency.
But, it still might "win" if the extra losses in the controller and
motor were less than losses saved by replacing the CVT with a fixed or
X-speed transmission.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Is there an advantage to charging slower on lead acid batteries? In other
words if I am not impatient is there any advantage to charging at a lower
rate? Will it have a positive effect on either the life or capacity of a
set of batteries to charge at 10 amps instead of 40 amps?
respectfully,
John
58 Harley conversion "The Skunk"
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.car.co.nz/family.asp?action=article&articleid=907
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.gizmag.com/go/4430/
How to convert an electric scooter to a solar scooter
from ecoGizmo (65 articles)
Page: 1 2 3 4 5 6
August 18, 2005 Primary producer Donald Dunklee has been watching the
power grid slowly but surely failing, while the world demand for fossil
fuel is slowly overpowering the world supply, driving prices skyward. It
made him determined to "get off the drip" and build street-legal,
affordable, dependable, sun-charged transport for his daily 5 mile
commute. His solar powered motorcycle has not been plugged into the
factory charger since April 15, 2005 and it’s now travelled over 700
miles since then. We guess he made it - this is Donald's story, as told
by Donald.
advertise here
Living off the grid for more than 20 years has taught my family a lot
about our future. Our power grid is failing and in need of major
repairs. During weather events thousands of people losing power is now
the norm, not the exception. Major grid failures can disable large
portions of our country. Our transportation system, while largely
fossil-fueled, is still dependent on the power grid to remain effective
for fuel distribution. Oil is running out and $5.00 a gallon gasoline is
in our future.
Our major auto manufacturers are like our grandfathers, set in their
ways and not showing any progress in moving our country away from
dependence on an oil-based system of transportation. Knowing this, and
having experience with battery and solar charging led to the development
of an affordable, solar charged electric scooter for the daily commute
back and forth to work, some 5 miles from our farm.
The technological advances in motors, controllers, and related
technology led largely by the solar industry, has made this possible.
Solar power is a way of working with Mother Nature. Small amounts of sun
energy, tapped over time, allow an acorn to become a mighty oak.
Likewise, tapping on a bit of the suns energy, just enough for our
needs, now allows for solar charged transportation to be viable
alternative to burning fossil fuels
The basic bike is a stock EVT 4000E available from various dealers
around the U.S. The rest of the system consists of a Xantrex (formerly
Trace) C-40 charge controller, and 4 Atlantic Solar 30 watt, 16 X 25
inch panels mounted two to a side. The panels fold open while in
charging mode and are closed while driving. Mounting hardware is basic
off the shelf parts available from any hardware store.
The design criteria was simple. The bike needed to be able to be self
contained, that is all charging from the sun, but still allow the
factory charger to be used if needed. Any modifications needed to fit
within the capacities listed and approved by D.O.T. and should be safe
as well as functional.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.evworld.com/rssnews.cfm?section=communique&rssid=13531
F3e Concept Electric Car Powered by Iron-based Battery
Source: Shanghai Daily/China
[Nov 20, 2006]
SYNOPSIS: Hong Kong-based BYD Automobile included its F3e concept
electric car in its Beijing Auto Show exhibit. Iron-based battery said
to be recharged to 70 percent state of charge in just 10 minutes.
CHINESE car makers surprised visitors to this year's Beijing auto show
by rolling out the sort of sportscars and concept models that usually
bear a foreign nameplate.
Domestic auto companies exhibiting at Auto China 2006 in Beijing over
the weekend were clearly trying to say to the world that they're ready
to compete with the sexy, high-tech stuff and will not be satisfied
simply turning out boxy family models.
For instance, Chery Automobile Co Ltd, the nation's fifth-biggest car
maker, debuted 10 new models, including three concept vehicles, two
gasoline-electri...[ continued ]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.rqriley.com/brochure.html
The XR3 Hybrid is a super-fuel-efficient two-passenger “personal
mobility vehicle” (PMV) that achieves 125 mpg on diesel, 225 mpg on
diesel and electric, and performance like a conventional automobile. The
design of the XR3 Hybrid focuses on existing technology and a vehicle
“personality” that makes conserving energy a fun driving experience. It
showcases the design ideas explored in Robert Q. Riley’s book,
Alternative Cars in the 21st Century.
At just 1300 pounds, this high-performance design combines
lightening-fast acceleration, a maximum speed of 85 mph, and fuel
economy of 125- to over 200-mpg.
Its clam-shell canopy and three-wheel platform boldly
differentiates the XR3 from conventional passenger cars. The vehicle’s
hybrid power system, diesel engine, and low curb weight are the main
ingredients of its super-high fuel economy and excellent performance.
Acceleration equal to that of a conventional car and a maximum speed of
85 mph make the XR3 Hybrid equally at home on freeways and surface streets.
Advanced safety features of a production XR3 Hybrid will
include occupant protection and crash avoidance systems. Enabling
technologies already exist, and nothing new has to be invented.
Plans will be available so readers can build a duplicate of
the XR3 Hybrid prototype, or convert their own car into a significantly
more fuel-efficient vehicle. Readers will understand the factors that
influence fuel economy, and learn how to make any car achieve greater
fuel economy. The XR3 Hybrid gives enthusiasts and experimenters the
opportunity to significantly reduce their transportation expenses and
have fun doing it. On a broader level, the vehicle is a highly visible
example of the kinds of vehicles that could help reduce personal
mobility energy demand on a global scale.
Styling Makes an Implied Promise
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/tc4.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Make posts about inverters and AC motors. ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, and in 1978 GM announced that we'd be able to buy an electric Chevette
by 1980. I'm still waiting, but I'm not holding my breath.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Nov 2006 at 17:03, Geopilot wrote:
> I don't care if it has a triple KG ratio if i
> could build them for 10% of the wh cost and just shove them all in a van.
Have you looked at the price of lead lately? Here's a website with the most
recent price :
http://www.kitcometals.com/charts/lead.html
Last I heard, golf car batteries were around $60-70 (they used to be around
$45-50). At 71 cents a pound, the lead in that battery (I'm guessing 40 lb
because a typical GC battery's dry weight is 45 lb) costs ~$28. That's for
just raw lead, in quantity - not even formed into plates. (Someone else
mentioned $2 / lb in ingots, which is probably more realistic for a home
builder.)
And you haven't bought the materials for the case, the electrolyte, or the
separators yet.
The competition among golf car battery manufacturers is surprisingly strong.
Golf car batteries are a stable, relatively low-margin commodity product.
As suggested above, raw materials compose a substantial part of the purchase
price. For these reasons, think you're going to have a very tough time
building a battery comparable to a golf car battery for anything close to
10% of the golf car battery's price. I wouldn't be surprised if it cost you
>more< to make your own.
> Many people have old jalopies,vans or pickups and can get an old
> forklift motor for a few hundred but will choke on $10,000 for batteries.
Who the heck is paying $10k for batteries???! A 120v pack of golf car
batteries costs around $1,200 - $1,400.
> My goal would be more along the lines of a self charging land cruiser
> which could go across the country at no cost by self charging with
> frequent stops.
You're going to shovel lead into a bigole van or SUV and then drive it
across the country, charging it entirely on solar energy? Have you run the
numbers on what those PVs will cost, how much energy you can gain, and how
much your vehicle uses? I sure hope you're still young, 'cause I see a
>long< road trip in your future. ;-)
The DIY spirit is a wonderful thing and I'm glad to see you looking at
history for ideas about ways to build an EV. But don't forget to look at
ALL of history, including recent history. Batteries - lead and other types -
have improved quite a bit in the last century. They don't make things like
they used to; sometimes they make them much better!
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:52 AM 23/11/06 -0500, Don Davidson wrote:
Happy Holidays!
I have recently created a website located at: www.elecars.spaces.live.com
Here you will find many
G'day Don
Hope you don't mind the constructive criticism, but the colours that you've
used for the text and background make it very hard to read (to the point
where I just highlighted the text to be able to read it clearly).
Apart from that, a good history lesson, thanks.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks.
Will fix.
Don B. Davidson III
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: New website created
> At 10:52 AM 23/11/06 -0500, Don Davidson wrote:
> >Happy Holidays!
> >
> >I have recently created a website located at: www.elecars.spaces.live.com
> >
> >Here you will find many
>
> G'day Don
>
> Hope you don't mind the constructive criticism, but the colours that
you've
> used for the text and background make it very hard to read (to the point
> where I just highlighted the text to be able to read it clearly).
>
> Apart from that, a good history lesson, thanks.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have added more material to my websites:
www.elecars.spaces.live.com
www.dbd3.spaces.live.com
Look for photos and historical data on Bradley GT Electric & CommuterCar
among others at the "elecars" site.
I have also altered the appearance of these websites. I encourage
constructive criticism. My purpose is to share and if you are unable to
view, I'm unable to share.
Don B. Davidson III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 4:21 AM
Subject: Re: New website created
> At 10:52 AM 23/11/06 -0500, Don Davidson wrote:
> >Happy Holidays!
> >
> >I have recently created a website located at: www.elecars.spaces.live.com
> >
> >Here you will find many
>
> G'day Don
>
> Hope you don't mind the constructive criticism, but the colours that
you've
> used for the text and background make it very hard to read (to the point
> where I just highlighted the text to be able to read it clearly).
>
> Apart from that, a good history lesson, thanks.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Kip and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Kip C Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
Date: Fri, 24 Nov 2006 21:24:01 -0800
>I'm really liking this thread. I, like most of us, have a
>limited budget, and would rather spend extra money on my
>batteries and motor than on a fancy controller if
>something less sophisticated will meet my needs.
KIS.
>
>So can somebody produce a simple schematic that reflects
>Jerry's S/P-dual motor-field weakened concept? The S/P
>part is easy enough, but I'm not clear how the other two
>factors are leveraged for smoother starting and higher
>top-end.
Yes the series/parallel is just switching say 2
36vdc packs between 36 and 72 vdc or any equal voltage
combo.
The starting resistor is in series with the motor,
used just a couple sec for starting and then shorted out by
a contactor. So it would go resistor+36v, 36v, 72 v for 3
speeds.
Next you add field weakening for inbetween speeds and
higher top speeds. This works by shorting out the fiield
with a resistor, a 12" length of 12gge copper wire would be
a starting point, to weaken the field strength. What this
does is increase the rpm/set point the motor works at
higher.
You can use 1/4-1/2 field weakening, about as much as
I use for speeds in say the 36v step with 1/4 and 1/3-1/2
FW, you would have 2 speeds between 36vdc and 72vdc plus 2
25-50% higher top speeds if the motors rpm redline isn't
over sped.
If you have a clutch/transmission, just a 3 speed CC
should do you well. With direct drive, you may need more
speeds though I did well on a low powered EV with just a
resistor and full speed, 2, for many yrs commuting to work.
Later put in a field weakening step and it felt like passing
gear, going from 45 mph to 60mph!!
And don't forget using 2 motor S/P gives another
speed and doubles torque at lower speeds, power at upper
speeds.
And don't forget for turly inexpensive, useful,
reilable EV's, it's hard to beata golf cart transaxle. I use
one with a MC front end and get 50 mph out of it with a
little hotrodding like 72vdc pack, larger tires and field
weakening ;^D. It was completed for under $200 scrounging.
But even buying some new parts, batteries, you should come
well under $700.
>
>-
>Kip
>86 MR2 EV in progress in Eugene
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Geopilot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Contactor controllers are better!!
>
>
>> Yes!
>>
>> Now there's a guy who thinks like a true EV home made
>>hacker.
Heh, I resemble that remark ;^D
>> gotta get away from this "high tech" mode of thinking and
>> back down to what can handle big amps for dirt cheap.
>
It's a choice, go EVing on a budget to be cost
effective or go big, pricy. My goal is transport without
oil, noise, smell. Wasting lots of money on marginally
better controller because it's the fashion takes EV's away
from many who need them most.
KIS,
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If they ran this car in reverse all the time it would probably have super
aerodynamics!
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:46:22 AM
Subject: cool conversion old school styling
http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/tc4.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Slightly off topic but of interest. Shows the need for electric vehicles in
the light of a looming energy crisis. For a schedule of times go here:
http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/ For an overview go here:
http://www.energybulletin.net/13911.html
Roderick Wilde, Director
Environmental Transportation Options
www.etoptions.org
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.14.14/548 - Release Date: 11/23/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am in desperate need of improving my range and I think the problem
could be solved with decreasing the wh per mile as it tends to get
around 420 wh/mile
Here is the list of things I think can cause poor performance
Dragging brakes
They seem ok. When I jack up the back it is obviously harder to
turn than the front having to turn the rear end.
Bad alignment
It needs alignment, Just can't afford it and it may need bushings
before I can proceed. Only 1 shop in town will touch this car because
of the independent rear and the complicated 4 wheel alignment necessary.
Comical.
Series Motor timing too advanced for vehicle weight.
It appears to lug and not come into the sweet spot until about 3000
rpm. On the rare day where I hit every light green on my commute, it
takes 2.1kwh for the 6 miles or the 350wh/mile . When I catch every
light it takes 2.7 for 450 wh/mile My Comm is dark brown with some
streaking looks like blotch film + dark patina on
http://www.morgancarbon.com/technicalsupport/patina.htm
tight wheel bearings
The front wheels spin if jacked up but the rear ones turn but won't
spin, too much rear end drag.
low tire pressure.
I keep all 4 at 50 psi (they are rated for 44) The vehicle weights
4050Lbs.
Air drag
1987 300zx, a sports car, shouldn't be too bad.
On the other side of the equation :
Cold batteries
Wow, I have really felt this recently
Not fully charged
My emeter never resets, I never see the blue light on the charger, I
am not sure if I am chargeing these agms properly.
Every charge the green LEDs get to flashing and it becomes a push. I
fear the reduced current caused by the regs is to low to overcome the
internal resistance of the remaining batteries and it is just lost.
So in an AGM string with regs on it, is the battery charged when the
green LED is flashing or is it at 80%, still in need of some charge? Is
there an "equalize"
Have I forgotten anything?
What, in your opinion, could be the worst offender?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
According to my Trojan battery manual, it states that for long life, the
charging ampere should not go over 20 percent of the ampere-hour rating of
the battery during the bulk charging which in some batteries may be to 80%
to 95% SOC.
It evens says, that it is best for long life, not to go below 80% SOC!, but
how many EV'ers do this.
There was a paper written at one time, stating to get a long life is try to
get the highest ampere-hour battery than you can get in the EV and never go
below 50% SOC for lead-acid.
So, this is what I have been doing starting in 1990 and the battery pack
went from 1990 to 2000 which were Exides X something in 6 volt at 235 AH. At
the time my discharge rate was down to about 75% SOC because by distance to
work and home was 5.14 miles which included 2 miles up hill and 2 or more
miles down hill, which I can coast all the way from work right into my
garage without any additional down hill power. My charger had a maximum rate
of 30 amps regulated that had a maximum adjustable voltage of 315 volts.
So I could not charge these batteries at the 235 AH x 20% or 47 amp rate,
but was at a 30 amp rated from 75 SOC to 90 SOC.
My next set of batteries were install in Jan 2002 which I have now are
Trojan 6V 260 AH after 2 years of modification of this EV which is call
Transformer I.
My charging rate of the 260 AH batteries could be as high as 260 x 20% = 52
amps up to 85 to 90% SOC. My charger a PFC-50B will go that high, but
because my average daily driving range is about 2.1 miles, I charge the
batteries about once a week when they just get down below 79% SOC. One time
I got wild, accelerated the EV which I draw over 200 motor amperes and the
batteries got down to 75% SOC.
I normally charge these batteries at 35 amperes, not at 52 amps. The Trojan
also stated you may go as high as 20% charge, but a 35 amp charge is a
recommended bulk charge for my T-145 batteries.
Lets say you have 50 AH battery, does this mean you should not charge over a
10 amp rate for a long life? See your battery specifications which would be
the recommended charging. Of course, some battery manufactures would like
to have you charge at a higher rate, so they can sell you more batteries.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 12:24 AM
Subject: Charging speed
> Hi All,
>
> Is there an advantage to charging slower on lead acid batteries? In other
> words if I am not impatient is there any advantage to charging at a lower
> rate? Will it have a positive effect on either the life or capacity of a
> set of batteries to charge at 10 amps instead of 40 amps?
>
> respectfully,
> John
>
> 58 Harley conversion "The Skunk"
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/751
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steven or Dave or whomever,
I am unaware of another motor besides the MTA-4001 (compound) being used as
original equipment in the Lectric Leopards, but perhaps there was. I'd like to
know the part number for it. A series version of the MTA may have been a MJU
type.
The letters in the Prestolite motor part number define the electrical design
(called the "type") whereas the numbers designated the mechanical
configuration. Might be confusing but for example, all MJU types have the same
windings and performance characteristics, but not all 4001s have the same
mechanicals. MJU-4001 may have been a pump motor and MJU-4004 might have been
a traction motor. Both would have had the same windings. But the MJU-4001
might have had an internal spline whereas the MTA-4001 had a keyed shaft. The
numbers were simply assigned in the order of release of that version of a motor
type.
I hated those thin pasted-on name labels. Used to have nice stamped metal
nameplates, but the factory had to save a dime on the motor.
Jeff
Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hey Steven
On the older Prestolites they printed the number under
the tag. If there are tags there but are just
unreadable try pealing a tag from the motor. More
than likely there will be a number printed beneath.
All Prestolites are a three letter followed by four
numbers like MPG-4001. All but PM's start with the
letter "M" Anyway if you'd like to know the number
that's a little trick I've used many times.
Hope this helps
Happy holidays all
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- Steven Lough wrote:
> Re: Some IMPORTANT clarification about Prestolites
>
> Jeff: I stand corrected. After inspecting 2 of
> the 7 motors I pulled
> from Lectric Leopards, the smaller diameter windings
> were across the
> total battery pack voltage. So this does make them
> compound motors.
>
> Three of these motors were still straight series
> motors with heavy
> windings everywhere. All 7 motors had hollowed-out
> output shafts for the
> Lectric Leopard pilot bushing.
>
> All the motors looked identical on the outside. They
> had two 3/8" posts
> and two bolts holding each field winding. None of
> them had readable
> labels.
>
> Dave Cloud
> --
> Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> Seattle EV Association
> 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> Day: 206 850-8535
> Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> web: http://www.seattleeva.org
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
---------------------------------
Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and get
things done faster.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have 1980 vintage Lectric Leopard Literature I will be posting to my
website as soon as I get it transferred to pdf. This Lectric Leopard
Literature is very extensive in it's specifications. See my website:
www.elecars.spaces.live.com I have jpeg images of the Lectric Leopard
literature, although the text is difficult to read in this form.
Don B. Davidson III
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Major" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 9:59 AM
Subject: Re: From Cloud to Jeff - Correction
> Steven or Dave or whomever,
>
> I am unaware of another motor besides the MTA-4001 (compound) being used
as original equipment in the Lectric Leopards, but perhaps there was. I'd
like to know the part number for it. A series version of the MTA may have
been a MJU type.
>
> The letters in the Prestolite motor part number define the electrical
design (called the "type") whereas the numbers designated the mechanical
configuration. Might be confusing but for example, all MJU types have the
same windings and performance characteristics, but not all 4001s have the
same mechanicals. MJU-4001 may have been a pump motor and MJU-4004 might
have been a traction motor. Both would have had the same windings. But the
MJU-4001 might have had an internal spline whereas the MTA-4001 had a keyed
shaft. The numbers were simply assigned in the order of release of that
version of a motor type.
>
> I hated those thin pasted-on name labels. Used to have nice stamped
metal nameplates, but the factory had to save a dime on the motor.
>
> Jeff
>
> Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey Steven
>
> On the older Prestolites they printed the number under
> the tag. If there are tags there but are just
> unreadable try pealing a tag from the motor. More
> than likely there will be a number printed beneath.
> All Prestolites are a three letter followed by four
> numbers like MPG-4001. All but PM's start with the
> letter "M" Anyway if you'd like to know the number
> that's a little trick I've used many times.
> Hope this helps
> Happy holidays all
> Cya
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
> --- Steven Lough wrote:
>
> > Re: Some IMPORTANT clarification about Prestolites
> >
> > Jeff: I stand corrected. After inspecting 2 of
> > the 7 motors I pulled
> > from Lectric Leopards, the smaller diameter windings
> > were across the
> > total battery pack voltage. So this does make them
> > compound motors.
> >
> > Three of these motors were still straight series
> > motors with heavy
> > windings everywhere. All 7 motors had hollowed-out
> > output shafts for the
> > Lectric Leopard pilot bushing.
> >
> > All the motors looked identical on the outside. They
> > had two 3/8" posts
> > and two bolts holding each field winding. None of
> > them had readable
> > labels.
> >
> > Dave Cloud
> > --
> > Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> > Seattle EV Association
> > 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> > Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> > Day: 206 850-8535
> > Eve: 206 524-1351
> > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > web: http://www.seattleeva.org
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> http://new.mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Check out the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta - Fire up a more powerful email and
get things done faster.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Is there an advantage to charging slower on lead acid batteries?
Like most things, there is an optimal charge rate. Either higher or
lower causes problems. Luckily, there is a very broad range of
acceptable charging rates. Any charging time between 6 and 18 hours is
good.
If you charge faster, then the charging process is less efficient; the
battery gets hot, and energy is wasted in heat. You also don't have
enough time to quite reach full charge, so you get a bit less amphour
capacity.
If you charge slower, you again lose efficiency, though now it occurs at
the end of the charge cycle. The wasted energy goes into extra gassing
in a flooded, or heat in a sealed battery.
Remember too that you can't apply the same current throughout the charge
cycle. You need a charging algorithm that adjust the current; high when
less than 80% charged, and tapering down as you approach 100%.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just got off phone with local Block Buster Video. Was told WKTEC is available
for rent at all Block Buster Video locations. I reserved my copy for rental
this afternoon to share.
Don B. Davidson III
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Dragging brakes
> They seem ok. When I jack up the back it is obviously harder to
> turn than the front having to turn the rear end.
You might try switching to a low friction lube in the differential and
transmission.
> Bad alignment
> It needs alignment, Just can't afford it and it may need bushings
> before I can proceed. Only 1 shop in town will touch this car because
> of the independent rear and the complicated 4 wheel alignment necessary.
> Comical.
Bingo! This can had a major effect on drag.
>
> Series Motor timing too advanced for vehicle weight.
Doubt it. Timing doesn't effect efficiency much (unless it's WAY off),
just causes arcing. Are you having problems with arcing?
> tight wheel bearings
> The front wheels spin if jacked up but the rear ones turn but won't
> spin, too much rear end drag.
Seems to me that this is about the same as I saw when I was working on the
rear of my truck, i.e. if I only lifted one wheel off it wouldn't spin
much.
But, if you don't mind some work, you can track down the source of the drag.
First remove the brake pads (just to be sure) and see if that has any
effect. Then reinstall them.
Then I'd try disconnecting the drive line and seeing how much drag is in
just the rear end.
> Not fully charged
> My emeter never resets, I never see the blue light on the charger, I
> am not sure if I am chargeing these agms properly.
That won't effect efficiency, but doesn't sound good.
> Every charge the green LEDs get to flashing and it becomes a push. I
> fear the reduced current caused by the regs is to low to overcome the
> internal resistance of the remaining batteries and it is just lost.
Or the max voltage set by the regs is less than that set in the charger.
Many chargers determine end of charge by exceeding a certain set voltage.
The Emeter does the same thing, it needs to see a voltage over a certain
programmed point for a certain amount of time (can't remember how exactly
right now and I'm not sure where my manual is)
I'd double check the voltage settings and the actual voltage the system
reaches at end of charge.
>
> So in an AGM string with regs on it, is the battery charged when the
> green LED is flashing or is it at 80%, still in need of some charge? Is
> there an "equalize"
Which green light? As I recall, to equalize with regs you need to remove
them, at least with the older models. Then again, I'm not sure
equalization is needed with regs.
>
> Have I forgotten anything?
> What, in your opinion, could be the worst offender?
Try a coast down test and see if it's drag or some kind of electrical
performance issue.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jeff,
The first thing I always look at, in purchasing a tire, is the load rating
at the PSI on the side of the tire. If your vehicle weighs 4050 lbs and you
in it, let say its now weighs 4200 lbs. If you vehicle weight is 50/50 then
each wheel should have about 1050 lbs on each wheel.
The tires load rating should be a little over that, because of vehicle
thrust may transfer the weight back and forth.
I like to go about 15 to 20 percent over that, which would be a 1050 x 1.20
= 1260 lb load rating. If you go too high of a load rating, the tires are
stiffer and cause increase resistance of the deflection rate of the tire.
Some tires get stiff when it gets colder and this increases the resistance.
My weight is a lot higher then yours which is 7200 lbs. This is about 1800
lbs per wheel of which I have tires rated for 2350 lbs at 65 psi. I have
them at the maximum of 65 psi which gives me a deflection rate of a maximum
of 5 percent of the sidewall height of the tire.
To check the deflection rate. Jack the tire off the ground and air it up to
the max psi for the load rating the side of the tire. Now just lower it so
it just touches the ground. Measure from the ground to the wheel rim which
will give you the side wall height.
Lets say the sidewall height reads 5 inches. Now lower the entire weight of
the vehicle on this tire and measure it again, and lets say its reads 4
inches, this is 20 percent which is too much deflection. So the wrong type
of tires are use for this amount of weight.
Setting you toe in to as close to 0 inch as possible. A alignment machine
will be either 0.005 under or over. So I settle for 0.005 over which the
normal standard toe out is 0.125. The faster you go, the tires will toe out
more anyway.
Another thing is look at the gear ratios of the transmission and
differential. The higher the weight, the more overall ratio should be in
the EV, which increases the torque.
The following is the recommended ratios for a weight of a vehicle:
This data is rounded off.
Weight Ratio
8000 27:1
7000 24:1
6000 20:1
5000 17:1
4000 14:1
3000 10:1
I am running about 20:1 for my vehicle which keeps the battery ampere at 180
amps at 60 mph in my GE 11 going through gears of 20:1 to 14:1 and then 6:1.
My GE motor advance is set at neutral for normal driving.
For my Warp 9 its maxs out at 14:1 at 45 mph at 6000 rpm with a 200 motor
amp.
My watts per mile at normally city driving is about 540 wt/mi for my weight.
I had a lot higher then that, because I had to stop 22 times going up hill.
When some mechanics re-grease the front wheel bearings, that like to use a
impact wrench to get the cotter key holes line up. The correct procedures
is to torque them up to the right value which is listed for your car and
than back off so the cotter key holes line up. While the wheels are jack
off the ground, you should be able to spin these wheels with out any drag.
This is easy to do, go to a auto parts store to pick up some front wheel
grease, and maybe some new bearings. I like to use the high temperature
white grease for this. Get a new cotter keys to match. Jack up the wheel,
remove the cotter key, and nut. The bear should pull out easily, clean it
with solvent, install the grease, either by hand or you can get a small
plastic tool to do this. Insert the bearings, turn on the nut my hand and
tighten up by hand until it stops. It feels just like a nut has run out of
threads. Back off to the next cotter key hole.
Rotate the wheel by hand, and if its too stiff, then either pull on the
wheel outward, which loosens the bearings a bit. If its too tight, then
loosen the wheel nut a little and pull on the wheel again until its spins
freely, turn on the wheel nut to the next cotter key hole and try again.
Some times when new break pads are install, some mechanics do not adjust the
clearances of the pads to the brake surface. The clearance when you release
the brakes should be a width of a paper. To do this brake job, the brake
lines are remove from the piston and air is use to push this piston back and
forth using a cleaning solvent to remove built up residue in the piston.
This sometimes make the pads too tight. After the new brakes pads and maybe
the disk is turn, check for this clearance.
After doing all of the above, I then check out how much torque it takes to
move the vehicle while it sets on a level floor.
I take a inch lb torque wrench and put it on a adapter I made to fit the
pilot shaft of the motor. Put the transmission in neutral and see how much
force it takes to rotate the motor. Normally it should be less than 2 inch
lbs.
Now check the torque in each gear ratio. To give you a reference to what my
torque reading for moving a 6890 lb EV in 1st gear with a overall ratio of
19.495:1 is 8 inch lbs to start to move the EV.
Yes, this is inch lbs, not foot lbs which I was question on this at one
time.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 25, 2006 7:47 AM
Subject: How do decrease Wh/mile
> I am in desperate need of improving my range and I think the problem
> could be solved with decreasing the wh per mile as it tends to get
> around 420 wh/mile
>
> Here is the list of things I think can cause poor performance
>
> Dragging brakes
> They seem ok. When I jack up the back it is obviously harder to
> turn than the front having to turn the rear end.
>
> Bad alignment
> It needs alignment, Just can't afford it and it may need bushings
> before I can proceed. Only 1 shop in town will touch this car because
> of the independent rear and the complicated 4 wheel alignment necessary.
> Comical.
>
> Series Motor timing too advanced for vehicle weight.
> It appears to lug and not come into the sweet spot until about 3000
> rpm. On the rare day where I hit every light green on my commute, it
> takes 2.1kwh for the 6 miles or the 350wh/mile . When I catch every
> light it takes 2.7 for 450 wh/mile My Comm is dark brown with some
> streaking looks like blotch film + dark patina on
> http://www.morgancarbon.com/technicalsupport/patina.htm
>
> tight wheel bearings
> The front wheels spin if jacked up but the rear ones turn but won't
> spin, too much rear end drag.
>
> low tire pressure.
> I keep all 4 at 50 psi (they are rated for 44) The vehicle weights
> 4050Lbs.
>
> Air drag
> 1987 300zx, a sports car, shouldn't be too bad.
>
> On the other side of the equation :
> Cold batteries
> Wow, I have really felt this recently
>
> Not fully charged
> My emeter never resets, I never see the blue light on the charger, I
> am not sure if I am chargeing these agms properly.
> Every charge the green LEDs get to flashing and it becomes a push. I
> fear the reduced current caused by the regs is to low to overcome the
> internal resistance of the remaining batteries and it is just lost.
>
> So in an AGM string with regs on it, is the battery charged when the
> green LED is flashing or is it at 80%, still in need of some charge? Is
> there an "equalize"
>
>
>
> Have I forgotten anything?
> What, in your opinion, could be the worst offender?
>
>
--- End Message ---
