EV Digest 6192
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Input on diagram please
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Introduction
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Introduction
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Direct Drive
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Newbie question about batteries
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Direct Drive
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Direct Drive
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Direct Drive
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DEVC?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: PBS Nova show on the car of the future
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) OT- Hostmen of Tyne/Energy Price Manipulation
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Motor controllers with 4 connections
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Some newbie questions
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Emailing: 2nd Generation Pulse Desulfator.htm
by Malcolm Chaddock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Motor controllers with 4 connections
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Emailing: 2nd Generation Pulse Desulfator.htm
by "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Maybe win a Schwinn but most probably just learn about the new Schwinn Li
Ion bikes.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Maybe win a Schwinn but most probably just learn about the new Schwinn
Li Ion bikes.
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor controllers with 4 connections
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Request for Information for EV Article
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Request for Information for EV Article
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
For those still following, I created an updated version of my diagram
based on input and suggestions from the list and posted it on my
webpage.
Since there were requests, I also posted links to download the
omnigraffle file and a stencil with some EV useful shapes I used.
The revised pdf is at
http://webpages.charter.net/belchertownev/EVDiagram2.pdf
John
On Tuesday, November 28, 2006, at 10:35 PM, John wrote:
EVers,
I have been working on a EV diagram for a while and I would very much
like some input. I put it on my lame excuse for a web page where it
will stay for a month or two.
http://webpages.charter.net/belchertownev/
It is there as a jpg or you can just download a PDF here
http://webpages.charter.net/belchertownev/EVDiagram.pdf
Thanks in advance.
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm curious why you picked this vehicle for an EV conversion? Are you sure
that you want to own and drive this strange machine and that you will like
it
after the novelty wears off? I think you should put its gasoline engine
back
together and drive it long enough to learn whether you want a vehicle like
this
or not. It would be a shame to invest time and money and effort on a
conversion
that you might not like after it's completed.
I've driven scooters like this one and didn't like them. They are unsafe.
A woman
I knew tipped one over, nearly died and never recovered the ability to walk.
It
would take a braver man than I to drive one of these scooters at 40 mph or
in
heavy traffic.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Escarcega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:01 PM
Subject: Introduction
Hi, my name is Marty, I live in Mesa, AZ. I just recently purchased a 1963
Westcoaster Mailster.
http://members.cox.net/escarcega-photos/Mailster/63mailster2.jpg
Specs on the little guy:
1100lbs
Onan 12.9hp 2 cylinder engine. Top speed about 40mph
3 Speed Manual transmission with reverse and clutch
Body is fiberglass
It was used by the post office in the 60's to deliver mail. When I laid my
eyes on it, I knew I had to have it. It would be a real head turner. Since
the engine was out and disassembled, I thought it would be great to
convert
it to an electric car and use as a daily driver to and from work. My head
is
spinning from all the information on the internet! (How I found you folks)
My capabilities are, machining (amateur, I have a lathe and mill at home).
Electrical work (I am an electrician by trade, I work for the City of Mesa
as a Traffic Signal technician) with some electronic background.
From what I have read, its best to keep the transmission but use it
without
a clutch?
Mesa, is FLAT no hills to speak of. My commute is about 10miles round trip
per day.
I would like to try and reasonably keep up with traffic, so 45mph would be
great.
I'd like to build a reliable electric car on a shoe string. I have been
offered that would put a 48volt system together:
1 controller - Sevcon - sep ex - 550 amp.
1 motor, Advanced DC - Sep Ex - Up to 12.8 hp.
1 24 volt contactor (the right one for the system)
1 pin wiring kit.
1 wire diagram
For $600, I thought it sounded like a really good deal, but am looking for
your input, thoughts and advice. I also need a charger.
I hope to document the entire process on my web page, though, I am in the
research mode now.
Thank you!
Marty
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Marty, welcome to the list - it looks like an exciting project.
A good idea is to shop around a bit. Check out Electro Automotive and
EVParts.com they both have all you need and lots of experience on how you
can be successful on a shoestring budget.
I am curious - what was the original top speed of those vehicles with a gas
engine?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Marty Escarcega
Sent: December 4, 2006 5:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Introduction
Hi, my name is Marty, I live in Mesa, AZ. I just recently purchased a 1963
Westcoaster Mailster.
http://members.cox.net/escarcega-photos/Mailster/63mailster2.jpg
Specs on the little guy:
1100lbs
Onan 12.9hp 2 cylinder engine. Top speed about 40mph
3 Speed Manual transmission with reverse and clutch Body is fiberglass
It was used by the post office in the 60's to deliver mail. When I laid my
eyes on it, I knew I had to have it. It would be a real head turner. Since
the engine was out and disassembled, I thought it would be great to convert
it to an electric car and use as a daily driver to and from work. My head is
spinning from all the information on the internet! (How I found you folks)
My capabilities are, machining (amateur, I have a lathe and mill at home).
Electrical work (I am an electrician by trade, I work for the City of Mesa
as a Traffic Signal technician) with some electronic background.
>From what I have read, its best to keep the transmission but use it
>without
a clutch?
Mesa, is FLAT no hills to speak of. My commute is about 10miles round trip
per day.
I would like to try and reasonably keep up with traffic, so 45mph would be
great.
I'd like to build a reliable electric car on a shoe string. I have been
offered that would put a 48volt system together:
1 controller - Sevcon - sep ex - 550 amp.
1 motor, Advanced DC - Sep Ex - Up to 12.8 hp.
1 24 volt contactor (the right one for the system)
1 pin wiring kit.
1 wire diagram
For $600, I thought it sounded like a really good deal, but am looking for
your input, thoughts and advice. I also need a charger.
I hope to document the entire process on my web page, though, I am in the
research mode now.
Thank you!
Marty
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roger,
>This seems to suggest that if one is running a Z1K, they would likely
>benefit even more by switching from series to single motor instead of
>parallel. With a Z2K one is further up the curve such that the
>difference is smaller (though still significant, since 2.39x the torque
>vs 2x the torque of paralleled motors is still a 19.5% gain).
>
>
>
If true and it works, you also get the bonus of one less contactor.
Add in two big diodes to capture the switching transients and you can
switch without any delay nor ramping down of current. You could also use
a smaller motor for the secondary since it won't be used as long.
Cory Cross
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter,
I'm trying to acquire some used golf cart batteries from a local
golf course or Interstate Battery. Would you be satisfied with a daily
cycle consisting of a charge, a 30 second near-short-circuit current
measurement, and then removing the electrolyte?
Cory Cross
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>Well, you could probably get results a lot faster if you tested them as
>you suggested they be used. I.e. Remove the plates (and allow them to
>dry) and then install the plates, daily.
>
>
>
>
>>Hi Peter,
>>
>>Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Well I could point out a hundred sites that all say it's bad to expose
>>>the
>>>plates to air. But you'll just point out that they are all battery
>>>dealers/manufacturers and go with your conspiracy theory.
>>>
>>>I'd suggest you run an experiement and test your theory.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> I didn't mean for it to come off conspiracy-theory-ish; it would
>>have been prudent to leave off my last point. My first point should
>>still stand: in every non-EV situation I can think of, there'd be no
>>advantage to having removing plates. No one could give a better reason
>>why they don't exist.
>>
>> If my theory is true, storing batteries without acid would give them
>>longer life. Hmm... Look up dry-charged batteries. It appears they are
>>fully charged before the electrolyte is removed and last at least 12
>>months (versus 3 for an unmaintained wet cell), but they are sealed
>>while in storage. So would the plates have to stay sealed inside the
>>cell whenever they're out of the water? Hmm...
>>
>> I'll take a battery company's word if they say removing plates once
>>a battery is manufactured damages them. I'll believe a university
>>professor, IEEE, a materials science publication, or anything along
>>those lines. Bonus points if they explain why, because I'm curious. Then
>>I won't have to wonder if it would work anymore.
>>
>> I'll run an experiment, but I won't get any results back for many
>>years (unless it fails quickly). I have some used SLI bats. I'll charge
>>them then measure the CA, drain the acid from each cell and store it,
>>wait a month, refill it, and measure again. If exposure to the air kills
>>the plates quickly, the CA should be minuscule. Barring that, in order
>>to validate my theory, I will still need to wait until the battery is
>>around 14 years old and then test the CA. At that age, any other battery
>>would be completely corroded (right?). In seven years, I'll let you
>>know...
>>
>>Cory Cross
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think there is still a benifit, but I haven't had the money to prove
it yet.
If my controller can put out 300V at 1000A and I have one motor, I am
limited to 170V so 150V and 1000A per motor, that is series. We agree on
that.
When I hit 3000RPM I can't push 1000A thru the motor, the BEMF (change
in reactance, I hate saying BEMF with series motors) prevents it. I am
still limited to 170V so each motor takes the amps it's rpm and applied
voltage dictate, allowing me to use more of what the controller has to
offer. Since there are 2 motors. there is 2 times that number.
Now maybe if I had a high enough voltage pack, and could stay in current
limit past the series parallel shift point (which, I think is set for
when the amps drop in 1/2?), then 1 motor or two just wouldn't matter.?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Direct Drive
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 23:45:32 -0500
Hi Roger,
>This seems to suggest that if one is running a Z1K, they would likely
>benefit even more by switching from series to single motor instead of
>parallel. With a Z2K one is further up the curve such that the
>difference is smaller (though still significant, since 2.39x the torque
>vs 2x the torque of paralleled motors is still a 19.5% gain).
>
>
>
If true and it works, you also get the bonus of one less contactor.
Add in two big diodes to capture the switching transients and you can
switch without any delay nor ramping down of current. You could also use
a smaller motor for the secondary since it won't be used as long.
Cory Cross
I think there is an important effect that you're all missing.
It takes more voltage to drive the same current through a single motor than
it does to drive it through two parallel motors. ( with the motors all at
the same RPM) .
This can be explained two different ways:
1. The back EMF of a series motor increases with increasing current. SO,
the back EMF of a motor with 2000 amps through it would be higher than that
of a motor with 1000 amps through it. ( motors at the same RPM) That means
more voltage is required to drive that current.
2. There is no free lunch.
I don't think anyone would argue that the efficiency of a motor is higher at
2000 amps than 1000 amps.
So, if, as you're saying, you're getting more torque ( and therefore more
power) out of a single motor than a parallel pair ( with the same total
current out of the controller) there must be more power entering the
motor(s). . That has to mean higher voltage at the motor(s). Especially at
reduced motor efficiency.
What this means is that you will hit the maximum pack voltage sooner with a
single motor than with a parallel pair. When that happens, you will have
less total current ( and torque) than with a parallel pair.
Depending on the motors, the RPM at the shift out of series, and the pack
voltage, you may NEVER get as much total motor current with a single motor
as a parallel pair. After all, the only reason to shift out of series mode
( and lose the 2x torque multiplier) is if you're running out of voltage and
come out of current limit.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
WIN up to $10,000 in cash or prizes enter the Microsoft Office Live
Sweepstakes http://clk..atdmt.com/MRT/go/aub0050001581mrt/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff Roger, Phil and All,
I agree more with Jeff, Phil here as in most
real cases, the 2 motor set up, especially with direct
drive, is going to be the winner in real life, especially at
the lower voltages most of us use. You are never going to
have a cost effective EV running a high voltage string of
AGM's. While they preform nicely in racing, they just cost
too much for less range. A much better choice would be
BB600's ni-cads for power out with very long, economical
life.
And I have my doubts you can actually put in
2000 amps at any higher rpm without fireballing the single
motor. Yes if people take your advice Roger, stock in Jim's
motor shop would be a good idea. ;^D
While for a few racers, it might be
worthwhile. 2 motors, especially with direct drive is going
to be the way for long motor life, massive starting torque
with a much less expensive controller.
And speaking of controllers, Peter said before
in the thread that you need an expensive controller to do
direct drive which just is not true. One could use a
Contactor controller to get the needed starting amps as
those with either Citi-cars or Lectric Leporeds who replaced
their CC with EC's and quickily found out they couldn't get
out of their own way.
And of course the other way is 2 motors, S/P
to get twice the staring power from the same, less expensive
controller.
A much less expensive way to get speed is
using a lighter glider as a 1500lb EV vs a 3000lb EV is
going to take 1/2 the power for the same acceleration.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Direct Drive
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 21:29:34 -0800
>I think there is still a benifit, but I haven't had the
>money to prove it yet.
>
>If my controller can put out 300V at 1000A and I have one
>motor, I am limited to 170V so 150V and 1000A per motor,
>that is series. We agree on that.
>
>When I hit 3000RPM I can't push 1000A thru the motor, the
>BEMF (change in reactance, I hate saying BEMF with series
>motors) prevents it. I am still limited to 170V so each
>motor takes the amps it's rpm and applied voltage dictate,
>allowing me to use more of what the controller has to
>offer. Since there are 2 motors. there is 2 times that
>number.
>
>Now maybe if I had a high enough voltage pack, and could
>stay in current limit past the series parallel shift point
>(which, I think is set for when the amps drop in 1/2?),
>then 1 motor or two just wouldn't matter.?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The DEVC website is in the process of being rebuilt and will reappear at a
new url. The club is still very active and had huge year as interest in EVs
has definitely increased.
Early in 2006 we realigned with the EAA and are now officially the Denver
Electric Vehicle Council, plus the Colorado chapter of the EAA.
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council (DEVC)
1994 Kawasaki Ninja EV
_http://electricmotorcycles.net/modules/xcgal/displayimage.php?pid=77&album=to
pn&cat=&pos=2_
(http://electricmotorcycles.net/modules/xcgal/displayimage.php?pid=77&album=topn&cat=&pos=2)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/car/ Comments can be made. The show should
be the vehicle of the future so two and three wheelers please comment also.
EV experts please comment. Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://internalcombustionbook.com/Hostmen.php
Lest we believe our own evil congomerates were clever enough to invent price
manipulation, here's an excerpt of what was going on with coal in England
back in the day.
And I mean like thirteenth century back in the day.
Truly, is nothing new under the sun?
Marv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know why the Curtis controllers have 4 connectors. The 4th one is for
plug braking.
Why does a Zilla have 4 connectors? Is one of them only for the current
shunt?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Eduardo,
In answer to a part of your questions:
1) pick the lighter car. It will be more efficient at accelerating and
going up hills.
2) For the hydraulic pump, how big is the pump on the ICE engine? It may be
able to be replaced by an OEM unit such as the Toyota MR2 electro-hydraulic
power steering pump. In Europe there may be a number of other vehicles that
have electro-hydraulic power steering systems - talk to your local auto
parts supplier.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eduardo Kaftanski
Sent: December 1, 2006 12:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Some newbie questions
Hi,
After reading this list on and off for almost a year, I am ready to
start planning my first conversion.
I do need lot of help deciding on which car to convert. I have two
options: one weights 2250lbs and has a max gross of 3100lbs and the other
has a 2900lbs empty weight and 1000lbs of payload. Is this 9inch/FB1 motor
territory? or can I get by with a 8 incher?
Second question is accesorys. Both cars are Citroens. They need a
hidraulic pump running for suspension, brakes and steering. An electric
12volt motor spinning at something like an ICE idle is doable? How much
power would something like that eat? I can live without power steering in
the smaller car, but not on the larger one.
Third is airconditioning. Where I live it gets hot in the summer and
A/C is a much welcomed addition. Whats the usual route for that?
Many thanks...
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | "World domination, now"
http://e.nn.cl | Linus Torvalds
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2nd Generation Pulse DesulfatorIs this of interest? I received it from an
EV friend in California
Malcolm
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Flooded Lead Acid Battery Desulfation...
2nd Gen Unit (Based on the Classic - Alastair Couper HP#77)...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Before going very far into this installment, I'd like to introduce "Alastair
Couper". AC designed a simple Battery Desulfator that was published into the
public domain in issue #77 of "Home Power" magazine. Either in the article
or from his web-site AC notes that the purpose of the circuit is to extend
the life of Flooded Lead Acid batteries, by rectifying one of the most
common failures due to sulfated plates.
Not wanting to get too far over my own understanding of the subject, FLA
batteries rely on an electrolyte solution between a series of lead plates.
When a battery is being used the sulfuric acid solution is delivering sulfur
on to the plates as the acidic solution progressively becomes weaker.
If a battery is consistently being discharged very deeply, it successively
has less & less storage capacity, due to the inability of the sulfur to
return to solution in he electrolyte. This is like the trolling motor
battery that would allow you to spend the entire day on the lake, and only a
year later lasts for less than 2 hrs.
I did build a unit from the plans using the exact components that AC
listed... It has worked when ever needed over the years until erroneously
connected with reverse polarity...
After having rebuilt it, I opted to take some liberties with the parts
listing, AC outlined the basic premise of the circuits functional blocks and
which were critical.
Since the original unit was soldered-up on a pref-brd, I wanted to make a
nicer PCB version, pictured to the right.
I don't want to get into the actual schematic or even too much detail on the
modifications to the original design. The full article is very easy to find
via your favorite search engine... But I wanted to provide a link to a forum
that I spent several hours reviewing...
http://www.shaka.com/%7Ekalepa/gbook.htm
There are numerous variations on the AC Classic, as well as more
explanations of how the circuit operates than I would ever want to recount.
I'm assuming that you've looked at the AC Classic and/or the FAQ linked
above...
This is the front-end or PWM part that fires the "Tank Circuit" that does
the actual work of returning the sulfur back into the electrolyte solution.
This PWM is way different from the "Classic" but does offer a very broad
range of Trigger pulse widths.
The reason I opted to deviate so far from the AC Classic was to avoid
purchasing any parts whatsoever. Lets assume that we are in the depths of
the Post Apocalyptic Era, I would still have the vast store-house of junk
from which to build circuits as I needed to.
The AC Classic, called for 2 coils or inductors rated at 220uh and 1000uh
respectively, AC himself encouraged a degree of flexibility in the
substitution of parts, but there is an implied ratio of values between the
parts, and the width of the triggering pulse would also be varied to
accommodate any substitutions.
These were the first set of coils that I hand wound on a pair of torroid
cores.
There was once a time many years ago, when if called upon I could have
calculated the number of turns required to achieve a specific inductance
given the properties of the core, the dia of the wire etc...
But today, I congratulate myself on being able to remember how to use the
oscilloscope, and comprehend the basics of the circuit.
For these purposes let it be said that Torrodial cores offer high flux
densities, but rather than counting the turns, I approximated the length of
the wire (12ft & 3ft)...
The Switching is accomplished by an IRF P-Channel MosFET, the Heavy diode
was from an intermittent Wiper Control brd, and the Blue Capacitor (680uF
63VDC or there abouts) was also scavenged from another board in the pile.
Also incorporated into this version is the use of Coaxial Cable leads to the
battery, there was discussion on the FAQ, of improved results due either to
the shielded nature of the cables or the reduced loses from the solid copper
center conductor.
Three (3) days later, I've finally wound a reliable coil pair, and have
tuned the circuit for optimal performance.
The original 12ft length on the larger core is still intact but the primary
or tank coil was increased to 12ft (from 3ft of wire) and wound tightly onto
a much smaller core...
I don't think that I could be any more vague, or offer less aid to anyone
trying to duplicate the setup. Should I think of it, I'll measure the wire
diameter (certainly a critical variable).
Although the system is intended primarily for Flooded Cells, it seems to
work fine on small Sealed cells as well.
And this is the critical output waveform that I'd been in search of.
This is exactly what is hitting the plates of the battery, a 35V spike that
carries a whollup... When the leads are connected a spark is quite visible.
If the Triggering pulse is too wide, the coils, diode and/or MosFET begin to
get hot, and there is an audible whine from the circuit.
In this display the circuit had been running cool, for over an hour.
This particular project was a nightmare from the word go, especially as it
was not in the rotation of planned events. But the addition of 13 Golf cart
batteries to theworkshop.ca accelerated it's priority. I felt compelled to
nab the batteries as they were an excellent deal, and would be yet another
small step in my plans to reduce our (family) load on the grid.
With a functional proto-type, I hope to build 2 more units and work on
recovering several batteries at once.
The blue tube is an empty potato chip container that now houses the
Desulfator.
The battery that it is connected to is from a Cub Cadet garden tractor. The
battery (like all my batteries) is numbered and has a chart that I dutifully
fill out every time it is either run on a "Desulf" or Charge cycle.
This particular battery has remained discharged for 2 years prior to coming
to me. It read 8V, ultimately it will be called upon to power a single CNC
Mill and PC for at least a 2 hr run.
Support theworkshop.ca
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Back to Energy
Disclaimer (an unfortunate necessity)
All Rights Reserved theworkshop.ca © August 02, 2005.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Eric,
See: http://cafeelectric.com/zilla/zillamanual.html
The controller has two terminals m+ and M- that is connected to the motor
and b+ that is connected to the main contactor and b- that is connected to
the battery pack negative.
Other type of controllers, may have only three connections where you tap off
one of the DC line voltages to go to the motor.
A free wheeling diode may be place between the negative and positive DC
input lines.
Also with the Zilla, you can read the motor amps by programming the Zilla to
read the motor ampere on a tach, call Amps on Tach, so there is a current
circuit for this.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 10:53 AM
Subject: Motor controllers with 4 connections
> I know why the Curtis controllers have 4 connectors. The 4th one is for
> plug braking.
>
> Why does a Zilla have 4 connectors? Is one of them only for the current
> shunt?
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Interesting read if it in fact works. Has anyone incorporated this into
their maintenance regimine? Nothing wrong with squeezing some extra cycles
out of a traction pack. Free miles;)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Malcolm Chaddock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Evlist" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 11:23 AM
Subject: Emailing: 2nd Generation Pulse Desulfator.htm
2nd Generation Pulse DesulfatorIs this of interest? I received it from an
EV friend in California
Malcolm
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Flooded Lead Acid Battery Desulfation...
2nd Gen Unit (Based on the Classic - Alastair Couper HP#77)...
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Before going very far into this installment, I'd like to introduce
"Alastair
Couper". AC designed a simple Battery Desulfator that was published into
the
public domain in issue #77 of "Home Power" magazine. Either in the article
or from his web-site AC notes that the purpose of the circuit is to extend
the life of Flooded Lead Acid batteries, by rectifying one of the most
common failures due to sulfated plates.
Not wanting to get too far over my own understanding of the subject, FLA
batteries rely on an electrolyte solution between a series of lead plates.
When a battery is being used the sulfuric acid solution is delivering
sulfur
on to the plates as the acidic solution progressively becomes weaker.
If a battery is consistently being discharged very deeply, it successively
has less & less storage capacity, due to the inability of the sulfur to
return to solution in he electrolyte. This is like the trolling motor
battery that would allow you to spend the entire day on the lake, and only
a
year later lasts for less than 2 hrs.
I did build a unit from the plans using the exact components that AC
listed... It has worked when ever needed over the years until erroneously
connected with reverse polarity...
After having rebuilt it, I opted to take some liberties with the parts
listing, AC outlined the basic premise of the circuits functional blocks
and
which were critical.
Since the original unit was soldered-up on a pref-brd, I wanted to make a
nicer PCB version, pictured to the right.
I don't want to get into the actual schematic or even too much detail on
the
modifications to the original design. The full article is very easy to
find
via your favorite search engine... But I wanted to provide a link to a
forum
that I spent several hours reviewing...
http://www.shaka.com/%7Ekalepa/gbook.htm
There are numerous variations on the AC Classic, as well as more
explanations of how the circuit operates than I would ever want to
recount.
I'm assuming that you've looked at the AC Classic and/or the FAQ linked
above...
This is the front-end or PWM part that fires the "Tank Circuit" that does
the actual work of returning the sulfur back into the electrolyte
solution.
This PWM is way different from the "Classic" but does offer a very broad
range of Trigger pulse widths.
The reason I opted to deviate so far from the AC Classic was to avoid
purchasing any parts whatsoever. Lets assume that we are in the depths of
the Post Apocalyptic Era, I would still have the vast store-house of junk
from which to build circuits as I needed to.
The AC Classic, called for 2 coils or inductors rated at 220uh and 1000uh
respectively, AC himself encouraged a degree of flexibility in the
substitution of parts, but there is an implied ratio of values between the
parts, and the width of the triggering pulse would also be varied to
accommodate any substitutions.
These were the first set of coils that I hand wound on a pair of torroid
cores.
There was once a time many years ago, when if called upon I could have
calculated the number of turns required to achieve a specific inductance
given the properties of the core, the dia of the wire etc...
But today, I congratulate myself on being able to remember how to use the
oscilloscope, and comprehend the basics of the circuit.
For these purposes let it be said that Torrodial cores offer high flux
densities, but rather than counting the turns, I approximated the length
of
the wire (12ft & 3ft)...
The Switching is accomplished by an IRF P-Channel MosFET, the Heavy diode
was from an intermittent Wiper Control brd, and the Blue Capacitor (680uF
63VDC or there abouts) was also scavenged from another board in the pile.
Also incorporated into this version is the use of Coaxial Cable leads to
the
battery, there was discussion on the FAQ, of improved results due either
to
the shielded nature of the cables or the reduced loses from the solid
copper
center conductor.
Three (3) days later, I've finally wound a reliable coil pair, and have
tuned the circuit for optimal performance.
The original 12ft length on the larger core is still intact but the
primary
or tank coil was increased to 12ft (from 3ft of wire) and wound tightly
onto
a much smaller core...
I don't think that I could be any more vague, or offer less aid to anyone
trying to duplicate the setup. Should I think of it, I'll measure the wire
diameter (certainly a critical variable).
Although the system is intended primarily for Flooded Cells, it seems to
work fine on small Sealed cells as well.
And this is the critical output waveform that I'd been in search of.
This is exactly what is hitting the plates of the battery, a 35V spike
that
carries a whollup... When the leads are connected a spark is quite
visible.
If the Triggering pulse is too wide, the coils, diode and/or MosFET begin
to
get hot, and there is an audible whine from the circuit.
In this display the circuit had been running cool, for over an hour.
This particular project was a nightmare from the word go, especially as it
was not in the rotation of planned events. But the addition of 13 Golf
cart
batteries to theworkshop.ca accelerated it's priority. I felt compelled to
nab the batteries as they were an excellent deal, and would be yet another
small step in my plans to reduce our (family) load on the grid.
With a functional proto-type, I hope to build 2 more units and work on
recovering several batteries at once.
The blue tube is an empty potato chip container that now houses the
Desulfator.
The battery that it is connected to is from a Cub Cadet garden tractor.
The
battery (like all my batteries) is numbered and has a chart that I
dutifully
fill out every time it is either run on a "Desulf" or Charge cycle.
This particular battery has remained discharged for 2 years prior to
coming
to me. It read 8V, ultimately it will be called upon to power a single CNC
Mill and PC for at least a 2 hr run.
Support theworkshop.ca
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Back to Energy
Disclaimer (an unfortunate necessity)
All Rights Reserved theworkshop.ca © August 02, 2005.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.schwinnbikes.com/news/press_detail.php?id=153
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paying for entry? I don't think so..
" Each $100 contributed in the Grist fundraising campaign spanning November
30, 2006 to December 14, 2006 will constitute one sweepstakes entry for the
Schwinn electric bike and other enviro-minded prizes. "
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"SFEVA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 2:45 PM
Subject: Maybe win a Schwinn but most probably just learn about the new
Schwinn Li Ion bikes.
http://www.schwinnbikes.com/news/press_detail.php?id=153
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello Eric,
See: http://cafeelectric.com/zilla/zillamanual.html
The controller has two terminals m+ and M- that is connected to the motor
and b+ that is connected to the main contactor and b- that is connected to
the battery pack negative.
I know how it's connected. For a low-side switcher, the B+ and M+
terminals are electrically the same, so often there's one terminal for both.
Other type of controllers, may have only three connections where you tap off
one of the DC line voltages to go to the motor.
A free wheeling diode may be place between the negative and positive DC
input lines.
There are freewheel diodes that are antiparallel across the M+ and M-
terminals. I don't know why you would have them from B+ to B-.
Also with the Zilla, you can read the motor amps by programming the Zilla to
read the motor ampere on a tach, call Amps on Tach, so there is a current
circuit for this.
Yeah, I know there's a shunt in there. I was just wondering if the 4th
terminal allowed the case length to be shorter because you wouldn't have
to have a shunt (physically) inline with M+, or M-, or B-
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
My name is Trevor Brown and I am an editor and reporter for the Indiana
Daily Student at Indiana University. I am currently working on an article
regarding trends of the use of electric cars and what are the reasons people
are choosing and not choosing them opposed to traditional cars. I'm sorry
for taking up any of your time, but I was wondering if you had a few moments
to answer a few brief questions I have regarding this for the article.
Unfortunately I will be out of the office the majority of the next two days
and thus unable to talk over the phone, so any reply via e-mail would be
greatly appreciated. If you'd still rather speak over the phone I should be
available Tuesday from 3 to 5 p.m. EST at 630.301.0589. My deadline is early
Wednesday so any reply before than would be more than appreciated.
1. What are the main reasons the average consumer should think about
purchasing an electric car?
2. Environmentally how much better are electric car versus traditional gas
vehicles. Is it enough that it could make a viable difference long-term?
3. What do you believe are the reasons people choose not to even consider
electric vehicles when making purchases? And what are some of the downfalls
of owning an electric vehicle? And why are so little number of electric cars
even being offered?
4. What are the main differences of full electric cars, plug-in hybrids, and
normal hybrid cars? Do you think hybrids are a more practical choice at this
time for consumers or are full plug-ins a better choice still?
5. What do you think has to be done for the mainstream public to embrace the
idea of electric and hybrid cars, and is this even possible given our
cultural climate?
6. In your opinion in the coming years, do you think the number of electric
vehicles will increase, and why?
7. Is there anything else on this subject you'd like to add?
I really appreciate any help at all you can provide me with. I completely
understand if you have no time to reply, but anything would be very valuable
to me. Regardless, thank you for your time. I think this is a pressing issue
and with your help, I hope to draw more light on it.
Thank you,
Trevor Brown
Indiana Daily Student
Spring '07 Managing Editor
Fall '06 Campus Editor
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cell: 630.301.0589
Newsroom: 812.855.0760
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/571 - Release Date: 12/5/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Request for Information for EV Article
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2006 12:41:12 -0800
Hello,
My name is Trevor Brown and I am an editor and reporter for the Indiana
Daily Student at Indiana University. I am currently working on an article
regarding trends of the use of electric cars and what are the reasons
people
are choosing and not choosing them opposed to traditional cars. I'm sorry
for taking up any of your time, but I was wondering if you had a few
moments
to answer a few brief questions I have regarding this for the article.
Unfortunately I will be out of the office the majority of the next two days
and thus unable to talk over the phone, so any reply via e-mail would be
greatly appreciated. If you'd still rather speak over the phone I should be
available Tuesday from 3 to 5 p.m. EST at 630.301.0589. My deadline is
early
Wednesday so any reply before than would be more than appreciated.
1. What are the main reasons the average consumer should think about
purchasing an electric car?
2. Environmentally how much better are electric car versus traditional gas
vehicles. Is it enough that it could make a viable difference long-term?
3. What do you believe are the reasons people choose not to even consider
electric vehicles when making purchases? And what are some of the downfalls
of owning an electric vehicle? And why are so little number of electric
cars
even being offered?
4. What are the main differences of full electric cars, plug-in hybrids,
and
normal hybrid cars? Do you think hybrids are a more practical choice at
this
time for consumers or are full plug-ins a better choice still?
5. What do you think has to be done for the mainstream public to embrace
the
idea of electric and hybrid cars, and is this even possible given our
cultural climate?
6. In your opinion in the coming years, do you think the number of electric
vehicles will increase, and why?
7. Is there anything else on this subject you'd like to add?
I really appreciate any help at all you can provide me with. I completely
understand if you have no time to reply, but anything would be very
valuable
to me. Regardless, thank you for your time. I think this is a pressing
issue
and with your help, I hope to draw more light on it.
Thank you,
Trevor Brown
Indiana Daily Student
Spring '07 Managing Editor
Fall '06 Campus Editor
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cell: 630.301.0589
Newsroom: 812.855.0760
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.9/571 - Release Date: 12/5/2006
Hi Trevor my name is Tim and you have come to the right place
Im an Electric vehicle enthusiast. I think that electric vehicles have many
advantages and disadvantages compared to traditional Internal Combustion
Engine (ICE) vehicles. First off electric vehicles have massive low end
torque which makes them ideal for drag racing. A well designed electric car
is unbeatable off the line as compared to traditional cars. Since (ICE)
vehicles only produce maximum horsepower and torque at a certain RPM their
use is very limited. Thats why gasoline cars need a transmission
specifically made for that engine to get optimum performance. Electric
motors produce maximum torque at zero RPM and max horsepower at their max
RPM. This is why electric cars are so good at drag racing. Electric cars do
suffer some driving range problems with conventional batteries. A typical
car driviing range for lead acid batteries is only about 20 to 50 miles
between charges. But with more high energy dense li-ion batteries up to 320
miles has been attained at 60 mp/h. Typical home made conversions use DC
current, which are cheap and very simple. Here is a good example of a DC
system.
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/whitezombie.php
while some very expirienced converters have made AC systems that are more
expensive and provide way more power for their weight.They are more
complicated though. Here is a good example of an AC system.
http://www.acpropulsion.com/tzero/
I think that electric cars are destined to replace gasoline cars in the
city, but i don't think they will replace gasoline cars for highway driving
untill li-ion batteries become dirt cheap.
Electric cars are very economical they typicaly cost about 1/3 the cost to
drive as a comparable gasoline vehicle (wit lead acids). Although you do
need to replace the batteries every couple years which could cost anywhere
from 300$ to 3000$ for lead acids and 5000$-50000$ for li-ion batteries
right now. Other then replacing the batteries their is basically no
mateinance.(tire pressure)
Hope this helps Email me back if you want some more on specifics.
_________________________________________________________________
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