EV Digest 6193
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Motor controllers with 4 connections
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Newbie contactor question
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Newbie contactor question
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) FW: Free showing tonight "Who Killed the Electric Car?" at UNLV FrankKoch
Auditorium 7:30
by "gail donaldson lucas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Maybe win a Schwinn but most probably just learn about the new Schwinn
Li Ion bikes.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Direct Drive
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Newbie contactor question
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) how to wire an EV
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Motor controllers with 4 connections
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: how to wire an EV
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Electric Scooters
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: how to wire an EV
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Newbie contactor question
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Introduction
by "Marty Escarcega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Batteries
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Nicad resetting, questions,comments.
by "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Batteries
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Introduction
by "Marty Escarcega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Not me!! Re: Nicad resetting vs NiMH
by "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know if this adds anything to the discussion or not but I saved
this email from John Wayland answering a question of mine about motor
wiring..
On Tuesday, December 5, 2006, at 12:53 PM, Eric Poulsen wrote:
I know why the Curtis controllers have 4 connectors. The 4th one is
for plug braking.
Why does a Zilla have 4 connectors? Is one of them only for the
current shunt?
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed Mar 8, 2006 12:49:07 AM US/Eastern
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor wiring
Reply-To: [email protected]
Hello to All,
John wrote:
I have been puzzled something for a while regarding wiring diagrams I
have seen.
Let's see if I can help clear it up for you.
Convert It (and other sources I have seen) show a controller with a
B+, B-, M- A2 terminals, with connections from
Controller A2 not used.
Controller B+ to pack + (via contactor)
Controller B- to pack -
Controller B+ to Motor A1
Motor A2 to Motor S2
and
Motor S1 to Controller M-
The above is for controllers that are 'low side switchers', in other
words, the transistors inside the controller pulse the negative side of
the pack. Curtis, the controller the 'Convert It' folks like to use, is
a low side switcher type. The A2 terminal is for 'plug braking' used
primarily in forklift applications where either a single large diode or
a bank of diodes inside the controllers goes across the motor's
armature to control the motor's reaction to being reversed while
traveling to slow the truck down. In a road going EV, we almost never
use plug braking, thus, it's 'not used' status. So, for the low side
switcher, one side of the motor is connected directly to the pack
positive, while the other side of the motor is connected to the
controller's M- output, where it gets its negative connection via PWM
between the controller and battery negative. The fact that the motor's
A2 is connected to the motor's S2 is merely the completion of the motor
circuit that is the norm for a series-wound motor, that is, one side of
the armature (either A1 or A2) is connected to one side of the series
field coils (either S1 or S2) so that the remaining two terminals (in
this case, A1 and S2) are where you apply power to the motor to make it
run.
My Zilla manual on the other hand has B+, B- M+ and M- terminals with
connections:
Zilla M- to motor A1
motor A2 to motor field (would this be S2 on my advanced dc motor?)
other motor field to Zilla M+
Zilla B- to Pack -
Zilla B+ to Pack + (via contactor)
The above is for controllers that are 'high side switchers', in other
words, the transistors inside the controller pulse the positive side of
the pack. The Zilla is a high side switcher type. Normally it would be
just like a Curtis, in that you would use just three connections, B+
and B- for battery pack input, and the switched side as the M+ output
to the motor with the other terminal of the motor connected to battery
minus. The difference is, that the Zilla also has a built in shunt for
measuring motor loop current. Inside the controller, the shunt has one
side connected to the battery negative terminal, with the other end of
the shunt being the M- terminal that feeds the motor its battery
negative.
Does the Zilla configuration give additional functionality such as
electric reverse?
Technically, not the Zilla controller itself, rather, the Zilla's
interface, the Hairball. The Hairball controls all contactor
activation, including optional F-R contactors. When using the optional
F-R contactors, the motor's two field terminals get wired to the
contactors, as does one of the motor's armature terminals, then the
contactors distribute the output of the controller appropriately. In
addition to F-R operation, the Hairball can also control series or
parallel contactors for running twin motors. The Hairball also controls
controller precharge and automatic engagement of the line contactor.
The Hairball also protects against a myriad of problems that other
lesser controller systems don't even address. The Zilla controller
operates silently, too. With a Zilla under your hood, the only squeal
you'll hear will be from the tires!
For the exact info, go here to read the owner's manual:
http://cafeelectric.com/products/zilla/Html/HB2Man.html
See Ya....John Wayland
Admission: sponsored by Cafe Electric and spoiled by Zilla excellence
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi guys i was just wondering what a contacter is used for what it does and
how it works. Also why do i need on in between my battery pack and my
controller
_________________________________________________________________
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you stay in touch with friends and family wherever you go. Click here to
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tim, the contactor is another name used for a big relay. Basically
allowing a small current/voltage to control a large current/voltage. In
this case, the switch of your ignition, which can only handle small
currents and voltages turns on the contactor which then switches on the big
current and voltage to go from your battery to your controller. The
controller then feeds this to the motor based on the throttle position.
Check out http://www.evparts.com/faq/ there is a lot of great info on these
types of questions.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Gamber
Sent: December 5, 2006 3:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Newbie contactor question
Hi guys i was just wondering what a contacter is used for what it does and
how it works. Also why do i need on in between my battery pack and my
controller
_________________________________________________________________
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you stay in touch with friends and family wherever you go. Click here to
find out how to sign up! http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In case anyone in Las Vegas is interested. I won't see you there. I
bought my own copy that I haven't looked at yet.
Gail
----- Original Message -----
From: Jane Feldman
To: undisclosed-recipients:
Sent: 12/5/2006 2:21:50 PM
Subject: Free showing tonight "Who Killed the Electric Car?" at UNLV
FrankKoch Auditorium 7:30
Seasons Greetings! Grab some hot chocolate and wrap yourself in a scarf
and join us on the UNLV campus as we watch:
"WHO KILLED THE ELECTRIC CAR?"
narrated by Martin Sheen and featuring
on screen contributions with Ralph Nader, Tom Hanks and Ed Begley Jr.
It is a murder mystery like no other, as it unravels the puzzling
demise of a vehicle that could have saved the environment and
America's dangerous addiction to foreign oil.
Time: 7:30pm
Place: Frank Koch Auditorium (CBC-A108, building just south of Lied Library)
Cost: FREE!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Read the rules. If you want to enter for free (this is the law) you must
send a paper of a certain size in a certain size envelope. It must be
exact. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 1:44 PM
Subject: Re: Maybe win a Schwinn but most probably just learn about the new
Schwinn Li Ion bikes.
> Paying for entry? I don't think so..
>
> " Each $100 contributed in the Grist fundraising campaign spanning
November
> 30, 2006 to December 14, 2006 will constitute one sweepstakes entry for
the
> Schwinn electric bike and other enviro-minded prizes. "
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>;
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> "SFEVA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 2:45 PM
> Subject: Maybe win a Schwinn but most probably just learn about the new
> Schwinn Li Ion bikes.
>
>
> > http://www.schwinnbikes.com/news/press_detail.php?id=153
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I think there is still a benifit, but I haven't had the
> money to prove it yet.
Well, I'm usually the first to admit that my reasoning could be flawed.
;^>
> If my controller can put out 300V at 1000A and I have one motor,
> I am limited to 170V so 150V and 1000A per motor, that is series.
> We agree on that.
>
> When I hit 3000RPM I can't push 1000A thru the motor, the BEMF
> (change in reactance, I hate saying BEMF with series motors)
> prevents it. I am still limited to 170V so each motor takes
> the amps it's rpm and applied voltage dictate, allowing me to
> use more of what the controller has to offer. Since there are 2
> motors. there is 2 times that number.
Yes, it is that pesky 170V artificial limit that bites us here.
I'm going to spare people reading through my math, but based on Otmar's
ADC 8" current/torque data and the ADC 9" resistance (since I don't have
the number for the 8"), and taking into account the dependence of the
CEMF on both motor RPM and current (thanks Phil for reminding me of
that):
Assuming that in series the current has fallen to 500A @ 150V/motor and
3000RPM, then immediately upon shifting to parallel, each motor remains
at exactly the same operating point (150V @ 500A & 3000RPM). The
controller can continue forcing 500A through each motor (1000A total)
until the motors are spinning at about 3460RPM. At this point the
controller output hits the 170V limit and current starts falling as RPM
increases further.
If we instead shift to a single motor at 3000RPM, then the current would
jump from 500A to about 880A @ 3000RPM. This yields 2.5x the torque as
500A would, so the net result is about 1.25x the torque at 3000RPM vs
the parallel case.
Problem is that we bump into that 170V limit sooner, so by about 3080RPM
the single motor current has dropped to about 796A and the torque is
back down to the same level as the parallel motor case. As RPM build
further, the single motor current drops such that the torque and power
above 3080RPM is lower than the parallel case.
This occurs only due to the 170V limit we enforce on the motor; if we
could beef the motor up to survive higher voltages, we could force 880A
(or more) into the motor at higher RPM and maintain the higher power of
the single motor longer.
For instance, to match the total torque of the paralleled motors at
3464RPM would require forcing 796A into the single motor, which requires
about 187V vs the 170V limit we would otherwise observe. Raising the
voltage limit to 187V would allow the controller to force even more
current into the single motor @ 3000RPM, increasing the torque advantage
vs the paralleled motors at 500A each even further. However, if the
parallelled motors were also allowed to see the higher 187V max, this
would extend their constant torque region to somewhat higher RPM, so
once again the single motor case would offer higher torque but over a
narrower RPM band.
So, while it seems that while the single motor can offer higher peak
torque following the shift out of series mode, if the pack voltage is
such that the shift occurs at a motor voltage near to the 170V limit of
the ADC motors, then the parallel motors have the advantage of extending
the powerband to higher RPM than the single motor can.
If the shift out of series mode occurs at a motor voltage sufficiently
below the 170V motor limit, perhaps there is a case for a "3-speed"
Zilla: start in series, shift to single motor, then shift to parallel...
;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You'd also need precharge cirsuits, right? I'm still trying to research them
myself.
- Tony
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Tim, the contactor is another name
used for a big relay. Basically
allowing a small current/voltage to control a large current/voltage. In
this case, the switch of your ignition, which can only handle small
currents and voltages turns on the contactor which then switches on the big
current and voltage to go from your battery to your controller. The
controller then feeds this to the motor based on the throttle position.
Check out http://www.evparts.com/faq/ there is a lot of great info on these
types of questions.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Gamber
Sent: December 5, 2006 3:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Newbie contactor question
Hi guys i was just wondering what a contacter is used for what it does and
how it works. Also why do i need on in between my battery pack and my
controller
_________________________________________________________________
Off to school, going on a trip, or moving? Windows Live (MSN) Messenger lets
you stay in touch with friends and family wherever you go. Click here to
find out how to sign up! http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi guys i was just wondering how to wire an ignition/ contactor coil and
where i can find the parts to use with a 156 vdc 800 amps peak circuit.
_________________________________________________________________
Off to school, going on a trip, or moving? Windows Live (MSN) Messenger lets
you stay in touch with friends and family wherever you go. Click here to
find out how to sign up! http://www.live.com/?mkt=en-ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Eric,
I talk to Otmar at one time about this, when I wanted to use my existing
Cableform controller frame and enclosure to mount the Zilla on and
contactors that has a built in external diode that went across the positive
of the battery and the negative of the motor which was built into the
contactor frame and my existing cabling circuits. This was call the free
wheeling diode on this board.
Had to remove the regen contactors to be able to fit the Zilla in.
The DC positive comes from the battery contactor which is control my the
ignition on position. This connects directly to the motor A1 with a tap off
line to a large standoff terminal which is all mark B+.
The B+ was connected to B+ on the controller and to a 300 amp diode that is
connected to the main contactor which is control by the ignition start
switch which is the negative circuit of the battery.
Installing the Zilla on this board, I remove the diode and move the B+ off
the motor and connected it to the main contactor. Everything is mark B+ and
B- on the this circuit which would be the same as B+ and M- or even M+ and
M- which is double label as so.
This Cableform chassis had a reversing circuit that was not use, and there
was diodes that were connected anti-parallel across every B+ and B- circuits
that went all the way back to the batteries.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: Motor controllers with 4 connections
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Eric,
> >
> > See: http://cafeelectric.com/zilla/zillamanual.html
> >
> > The controller has two terminals m+ and M- that is connected to the
> > motor
> > and b+ that is connected to the main contactor and b- that is connected
> > to
> > the battery pack negative.
> >
> I know how it's connected. For a low-side switcher, the B+ and M+
> terminals are electrically the same, so often there's one terminal for
> both.
> > Other type of controllers, may have only three connections where you tap
> > off
> > one of the DC line voltages to go to the motor.
> >
> > A free wheeling diode may be place between the negative and positive DC
> > input lines.
> >
> There are freewheel diodes that are antiparallel across the M+ and M-
> terminals. I don't know why you would have them from B+ to B-.
> > Also with the Zilla, you can read the motor amps by programming the
> > Zilla to
> > read the motor ampere on a tach, call Amps on Tach, so there is a
> > current
> > circuit for this.
> >
> Yeah, I know there's a shunt in there. I was just wondering if the 4th
> terminal allowed the case length to be shorter because you wouldn't have
> to have a shunt (physically) inline with M+, or M-, or B-
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First up, I use "Convert It" as the schematic for my
rig.
A Curtis controller is good for up to 144V. I use a
DCP Raptor 1200, which is good for 156V. Other
LISTers use 'Zilla controllers.
Although ADC 8" motors are rated up to 128V, many of
us use them through 156V without incident.
If you're looking for one on the west coast, I have
one up for sale fr $1K in OR.
Hope that gets you started.
--- Tim Gamber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi guys i was just wondering how to wire an
> ignition/ contactor coil and
> where i can find the parts to use with a 156 vdc 800
> amps peak circuit.
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Off to school, going on a trip, or moving? Windows
> Live (MSN) Messenger lets
> you stay in touch with friends and family wherever
> you go. Click here to
> find out how to sign up!
> http://www.live.com/?mkt=en-ca
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Cheap talk?
Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
http://voice.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> John,
>
> Don't settle for those overpriced imitations.
>
> See the original Segway here:
> http://www.haihongco.com/pro.asp?id=81&clas=Electric%20Scooter
>
> Note, Haihong says max.load capacity only 105lbs, where x-treme says
> 300lbs?
Umm, that is an imitation Segway. You don't even have to look all that
close to see the extra two wheels.
I wonder if they messed up the units when translating. I've noticed a lot
of chinese web sites tend to mix up lbs and kgs, inches and cm etc.
>
> Other exciting new EV product from Yong Kang:
>
> This one is set to sweep the solar EV competitions:
> http://chinabotao.en.alibaba.com/product/0/51194771/Solar_Cell_Sweeper.html
> or tinyURL here:
> http://tinyurl.com/y46l2m
Yow! All of 10mph, the other competitors will have a hard time not
running over it :)
Of course I'm sure it will make a "clean sweep"
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tim,
Spend some time looking at the FAQ, wikipedia and the EVAlbum. There are
also many sites dedicated to building an EV that will help to get you
started. Your questions can be answered by most of these sites. Also, like
Bob says, get the "Convert It" book - it will really answer a lot of these
detailed questions.
For parts, check out:
cloud electric
evparts.com
metricmind.com
electro auto
canev
For some great websites, see:
Mine! www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Victor's www.metricmind.com
EVADC http://www.evadc.org/build_an_ev.html
and many, many more...
Please use google, enter "ev build" you will get a lot of great
information. Take your time, it is a big subject. Once you have got a good
undestanding then "go for it" - start peltering us with questions.
In answers to your questions you will ask in the future:
Yes, lead acid is the current state of technology for batteries,
unless you have LOTS of money
Yes, range sucks (30 miles is typical)
No, AC is not better than DC, nor is DC better than AC, they are
just different. And really it is a matter of manufacturer quality.
Happy hunting
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Gamber
Sent: December 5, 2006 5:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: how to wire an EV
Hi guys i was just wondering how to wire an ignition/ contactor coil and
where i can find the parts to use with a 156 vdc 800 amps peak circuit.
_________________________________________________________________
Off to school, going on a trip, or moving? Windows Live (MSN) Messenger lets
you stay in touch with friends and family wherever you go. Click here to
find out how to sign up! http://www.live.com/?mkt=en-ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I am not that familiar with the exact operation of precharge resistors, I
did a search on wikipedia:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion_chapter:_high_power
_electrical
Describes the operation of the contactor and purpose of the pre-charge
resistor - another great resource.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tony Hwang
Sent: December 5, 2006 5:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Newbie contactor question
You'd also need precharge cirsuits, right? I'm still trying to research them
myself.
- Tony
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Tim, the contactor is another
name used for a big relay. Basically allowing a small current/voltage to
control a large current/voltage. In this case, the switch of your
ignition, which can only handle small currents and voltages turns on the
contactor which then switches on the big current and voltage to go from your
battery to your controller. The controller then feeds this to the motor
based on the throttle position.
Check out http://www.evparts.com/faq/ there is a lot of great info on these
types of questions.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Gamber
Sent: December 5, 2006 3:53 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Newbie contactor question
Hi guys i was just wondering what a contacter is used for what it does and
how it works. Also why do i need on in between my battery pack and my
controller
_________________________________________________________________
Off to school, going on a trip, or moving? Windows Live (MSN) Messenger lets
you stay in touch with friends and family wherever you go. Click here to
find out how to sign up! http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I appreciate the opinion Tom. Well, I felt that it was the right weight. I'm
sure it would be quite a head turner and I don't think I would be ashamed to
drive it. Yes, I know that these are tippy. I like to machine and fabricate.
I thought it would be an enjoyable project.
-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Shay [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 8:30 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Introduction
I'm curious why you picked this vehicle for an EV conversion? Are you sure
that you want to own and drive this strange machine and that you will like
it after the novelty wears off? I think you should put its gasoline engine
back together and drive it long enough to learn whether you want a vehicle
like this or not. It would be a shame to invest time and money and effort on
a conversion that you might not like after it's completed.
I've driven scooters like this one and didn't like them. They are unsafe.
A woman
I knew tipped one over, nearly died and never recovered the ability to walk.
It
would take a braver man than I to drive one of these scooters at 40 mph or
in heavy traffic.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Escarcega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 5:01 PM
Subject: Introduction
> Hi, my name is Marty, I live in Mesa, AZ. I just recently purchased a 1963
> Westcoaster Mailster.
> http://members.cox.net/escarcega-photos/Mailster/63mailster2.jpg
> Specs on the little guy:
> 1100lbs
> Onan 12.9hp 2 cylinder engine. Top speed about 40mph
> 3 Speed Manual transmission with reverse and clutch
> Body is fiberglass
>
> It was used by the post office in the 60's to deliver mail. When I laid my
> eyes on it, I knew I had to have it. It would be a real head turner. Since
> the engine was out and disassembled, I thought it would be great to
> convert
> it to an electric car and use as a daily driver to and from work. My head
> is
> spinning from all the information on the internet! (How I found you folks)
> My capabilities are, machining (amateur, I have a lathe and mill at home).
> Electrical work (I am an electrician by trade, I work for the City of Mesa
> as a Traffic Signal technician) with some electronic background.
>
>>From what I have read, its best to keep the transmission but use it
>>without
> a clutch?
> Mesa, is FLAT no hills to speak of. My commute is about 10miles round trip
> per day.
> I would like to try and reasonably keep up with traffic, so 45mph would be
> great.
>
> I'd like to build a reliable electric car on a shoe string. I have been
> offered that would put a 48volt system together:
> 1 controller - Sevcon - sep ex - 550 amp.
> 1 motor, Advanced DC - Sep Ex - Up to 12.8 hp.
> 1 24 volt contactor (the right one for the system)
> 1 pin wiring kit.
> 1 wire diagram
> For $600, I thought it sounded like a really good deal, but am looking for
> your input, thoughts and advice. I also need a charger.
> I hope to document the entire process on my web page, though, I am in the
> research mode now.
>
> Thank you!
> Marty
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I have 29 Dynasty 12v 33ah VRLA batteries. They are the size of garden tractor
batteries and weigh 27lbs each. See
http://www.sure-power.com/product/cd_battery/pdf/12-140.pdf . I currently have
24 of them serially buddy paired to 144v powering my Suzuki Sidekick with a
range of 16 miles of very hilly terrain. I am replacing them with flooded golf
cart batteries because I need more range. Before I go selling them off on
Craig's list or Ebay, is anybody on the list interested?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So... Has it been determined that reversing a NiCad BB600 hurts it or
not? If it is only under high current reversing what is it that takes
the hit? I hear the plates look good so that would mean the electrolyte
is what deteriorates. This would lead me to believe that a BB600 could
be rejuvenated by changing the electrolyte.
Could a NiCad be recharged by replacing the electrolyte? I don't
plan on changing KOH this regular but could this be done?
Thanks,
Nate
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 8:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Nicad resetting, questions,comments.
Hi EVerybody, and the Nicad Folks;
Watching the Charging Follies here, hoping to do it close to
correctly when the time comes? A few observations, as covered in the
chronicles(comicals) from before, I blew up a pack of 5 Nicads with the
time honored spark- around- the- top destructive system. They Blow as
well as led acids! Don't try this at home!!!! A hellova surprise! I
didn't think they would DO that? After all, they are a different
chemestry? Right? WAS it hydrogen that blew things up??They run Koh as
an electrolite?WHAT is this stuff? Tastes terrable!But what amazed me
was how squeeky CLEAN the plate assembly was!NO deterioration, no crud
in the bottom of the cell, no nasty shit like that.I have blown up
enough Led acids to know what a gloppy, gooey, mess in them.
I've heard, maybe incorrectly?That to "Rebuild" a Nicad you flush it
out, lovingly, with pure water(Distilled) refill with NEW Koh
electrolyte? Makes sense to me, as the plates and internal fixin's don't
SEEM to deteriorate?
Maybe , but not to the untrained eye.So reversing a cell doesn't blow
apart the internals? Reverse to your heart's content? Then do a
equilizing charge, short them DEAD and recharge, and live happily EVer
after? Seems the ideal Newbee, can't murder my first pack, thing?I have
some slightly bigger than the BB600's Alcad, they say on the box.I think
they were UPS batteries?
Should be interesting to try some?Guess I should set up a battery
testing lab down celler?Or out in the shed, as they don't care about
cold? But I do.What do you DO with the old Koh? Ya surely don't just
dump it down the drain,or on the ground????
Let me get a few cars up and runn ing around here, then time to
play.Putting my new Impulse 9" motor in the 97 Sentra, just had the
adapter and coupling made. Keeping the clutch, of course. Deciding on
what voltage to run? 6 or 12 volt badd-eries. I sure LOVE J. Wayland's
super clean Datsun fleet. would like to do something thast would stay as
clean. Never need watering, all that.This isn't gunna be a racing car,
but a grocery getter sort of thing, carefree, plugitin, honey, when ya
get home, forget it. I think EV tech is up to this nowadaze?Will
probably offer THIS one up for sale when done?
OK back to Nicads.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
May I suggest you add to this post information about where you are
located? SLA batteries - good. Shipping PbA batteries - not so good :-)
Paul "neon" G.
On Dec 5, 2006, at 7:08 PM, Storm Connors wrote:
I have 29 Dynasty 12v 33ah VRLA batteries. They are the size of garden
tractor batteries and weigh 27lbs each. See
http://www.sure-power.com/product/cd_battery/pdf/12-140.pdf . I
currently have 24 of them serially buddy paired to 144v powering my
Suzuki Sidekick with a range of 16 miles of very hilly terrain. I am
replacing them with flooded golf cart batteries because I need more
range. Before I go selling them off on Craig's list or Ebay, is
anybody on the list interested?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Don, my understanding they did about 40mph.
I'm surprised I got no responses about what folks think about what I was
offered or what I should look for?
Is the Sevcon controller desireable? How about the motor? What else might I
need? Advice/comments/thoughts/help appreciated.
Marty
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 8:38 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Introduction
Hi Marty, welcome to the list - it looks like an exciting project.
A good idea is to shop around a bit. Check out Electro Automotive and
EVParts.com they both have all you need and lots of experience on how you
can be successful on a shoestring budget.
I am curious - what was the original top speed of those vehicles with a gas
engine?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Hi, my name is Marty, I live in Mesa, AZ. I just recently purchased a 1963
Westcoaster Mailster.
http://members.cox.net/escarcega-photos/Mailster/63mailster2.jpg
Specs on the little guy:
1100lbs
Onan 12.9hp 2 cylinder engine. Top speed about 40mph
3 Speed Manual transmission with reverse and clutch Body is fiberglass
It was used by the post office in the 60's to deliver mail. When I laid my
eyes on it, I knew I had to have it. It would be a real head turner. Since
the engine was out and disassembled, I thought it would be great to convert
it to an electric car and use as a daily driver to and from work. My head is
spinning from all the information on the internet! (How I found you folks)
My capabilities are, machining (amateur, I have a lathe and mill at home).
Electrical work (I am an electrician by trade, I work for the City of Mesa
as a Traffic Signal technician) with some electronic background.
>From what I have read, its best to keep the transmission but use it
without
a clutch?
Mesa, is FLAT no hills to speak of. My commute is about 10miles round trip
per day.
I would like to try and reasonably keep up with traffic, so 45mph would be
great.
I'd like to build a reliable electric car on a shoe string. I have been
offered that would put a 48volt system together:
1 controller - Sevcon - sep ex - 550 amp.
1 motor, Advanced DC - Sep Ex - Up to 12.8 hp.
1 24 volt contactor (the right one for the system)
1 pin wiring kit.
1 wire diagram
For $600, I thought it sounded like a really good deal, but am looking for
your input, thoughts and advice. I also need a charger.
I hope to document the entire process on my web page, though, I am in the
research mode now.
Thank you!
Marty
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry,
You believe shorting the NiCad's shortens their life because
running one to zero volts is bad or do you mean shorting the string can
reverse one or more cells?
I would still like to know what changes when a cell is reversed,
can the BB600 be taken apart, cleaned and what ever damage repaired?
Thanks,
Nate
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jerryd
Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2006 6:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Not me!! Re: Nicad resetting vs NiMH
Hi Edward, Mike and All,
While your way Edward certainly works to discharge the batts
well, I don't see the need for it at all unless there is an actual
balance problem.
I've used high power SAFT 14amphr batts for about 10 yrs that
were used over 25 yrs when I got them, heavy use for 5 yrs commuting and
never had to completely discharge them and except for badly overcharging
accidentally several times, never had a problem and they stayed above
rated power to this day.
What they want is for them to be equalized. I rather equalize
on the top of the charge than the bottom like you, Mike do and has
worked well for me. I found equalizing only 1/week/5-7 cycles, easily
keep the batts in line, actually getting more equal as they got used,
without using much water. Many times I went a week on one charge, so
only equalizing there 1/month, watering every 3 months!! If you want to
equalize the bottom of the cycle, just discharge them by driving down to
1-2% charge, then recharge. After 10 cycles or so my ni-cads were
completely equalized together, within a couple 1/100's of a volt. All I
did was bring them up to full charge by charging until charged, removing
it from the temp charging string while the others reached full charge.
This was after they set for probably a couple yrs before I got them.
They were used as UPS' in medical equipment, given to me free by a batt
company that didn't want to ship them back to SAFT for recycling.
Using an E meter or better, Lee's new EV Dash when it's
ready, to put back about 90% charge most cycles, then 110% every 5-7
cycles. This should easily keep your ni-cads in good shape, lowering
watering needs, work, to give your batts a nice, long, happy life.
As for why Ni-cads are done as the manual says is everything
about aircraft is rather anal, and for good reason, towards safety. But
this has little in common with using ni-cads for EV use. For instance,
I'd bet the electrolyte change is to keep the bats from shorting out,
ect during dogfights, ect, which can ruin your whole day!!
As our ni-cads won't be inverted much, this isn't a problem.
However, exposing the plates to O2 or worse, CO2 is not good either and
known to shorten life.
On my BB600's, I'll just check them all to make sure they are
all 0 volts to start the commissioning charges, cycles to bring them up
to spec and just equalize the top of the charge from there.
While reversing a cell is not terminal, you lose capacity each
time with a 20% reversal probably losing 10% cap each time based on
doing it with my similar SAFTS over the yrs. Luckily ni-cads are usually
higher cap than rated so the first one doesn't show up, but a couple and
you can really have problems. Been there, done that.
The less often you open the caps, the less CO2 will get in,
turning into carbonate, I forget which kind, which is a white crystal
mass that grows in the cells and if charged/ discharged right, this
carbonate is the thing that will eventually kill a ni-cad, though with
care, that will be over 50 yrs based on my, other's experience. Many
50-90 yr old ni-cads are still going strong at rated power!!
With such a great battery available for less than AGM's, both
new, I don't see why people chose AGM's over BB600's, other ni-cads or
why one would want NiMH that is marginally better capacity, much more
tempermental and extremely costly.
Let's see, a 12vdc BB600 battery costs $100 or less, puts out
about 35 usable amphrs and 800amps? vs a NiMH which costs 10-15x's more
that dies in hot weather, requires a expensive charger/BMS and limited
in amps. I know which one I'd want!!
So I'd not do shorting out cells unless your string was brand
new, just out of shorted storage or hopelessly out of balance. Doing it
will I believe shorten their life which is fine for an aircraft that
will replace them every 2-3 yrs or so, but not for EV's which want them
to run 20+ yrs!!
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Nicad resetting
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006 11:18:46 -0800
>Mike,
>
>I am one of the first to use these BB600's in an EV. I did a few of
>these 0 V maintenance charge before. The easiest way I found is to
>attach a short thin wire (NiChrom may be) across the top of each cells
>and leave them for a few hours. I drilled small holes on the
>interconnects to slot these wires in and hold them in place. This
>would drain each cell safely to 0V. Then, do a slow constant current
>charge like you would the first time you recharge them.
>
>However, make sure you do this in s well ventilated area.
>The combined heat of those short wire acts like a large heater.
>
>On 11/30/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Too late now ;0
>>
>> Granted, it would be better to drain them individually.
>> But with 252 cells it's just not practical.
>>
>> The nicad book I have talks about BB600's and liquid filled nicads
>>alot. One thing it mentions is that cell reversal is not a big deal.
>> I also think that the conditions in which they occur are important
>>too. If I had a reversed cell moving 30 to 100 amps or more thru it,
>>I'd be concerned. But I drained the pack very slowly.
>> The bottom line is we'll see what the outcome is. This also speaks
>>for the need for a monitoring system. So I'm back on that.
>> Mike
>>
>>
>>
>> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Peter VanDerWal"
>> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Bad idea!!!
>> >
>> > You can bring individual cells down to zero volts, but
>> if you try to bring
>> > the whole pack down while wired in series you will almost
>> >certainly reverse one or more cells (this is a bad thing).
>> > At any rate, I'm not sure of the benifit from doing this and the
>> >recommendation is concerning dry cell
>> nicads anyway. I don't recall Daft
>> > reccomending this as a normal maintenance requirement for their
>> > flooded cells.
>> >
>> > > Somewhere I read (in my nicad book) and was told by a nicad old
>> > > timer that every 100 charge/discharge cycles the pack should be
>> > > brought down to zero volts.
>> > > So I bought a 6 foot long, 240v, 1500 watt baseboard
>heater to load the pack down after I drove it for 32.5
>> > > ah's. When the pack was at 160v and 5 amps, some cells were at
>> > > 1.1v and some were at -.100v. Man! So I guess it's time to zero
>> > > them out. The book I have
>says they vent either oxygen or hydrogen first during a
>> > > mild reversal, then the other gas if the reversal is deeper.
>> > > We'll see how flat it is in the morning.
>> > >
>> > > This flattening is just for the 225 green cells. The
>> > > 27 red cells seem to have a higher voltage and water level, so
>> > > they will get flattened separate from the greentops. I did 2 load
>> > > tests using my load tester on
>the redtops and they came out to 27-30 ah's at an average
>> > > load of about 35 amps. The greentops came out to about 32.5 ah
>> > >from just driving and watching the Emeter.
>> > > Mike
>> > >
>> >>
>>
>
>
>--
>Edward Ang
>President
>AIR Lab Corp
>
--- End Message ---
