--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone looked into a fuel cell as either a range extender, emergency
charger, etc. in an EV?
I imagine they would be too expensive in onesie quanitities to power the
vehicle, but a small one might be able to charge the vehicle over time, if you
weren't close to a plug. Might also provide an opportunity for alternative
fuels - hydrogen and so forth.
--Lawrence Lile
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------_=_NextPart_001_01C71A01.F73F2AB0"
Subject: Fuel Cells
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 07:14:13 -0600
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Thread-Topic: Fuel Cells
Thread-Index: AccZpsU3G9MUB33xSy69BZOiQ7+iVwAWtH28
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Lawrence Lile--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 05:19:31 -0800
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Definitly something wrong
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So there are 2 ways to load test? fully charged with a load tester and
discharged with a light load? Are those shiny metal boxes with the
heating element in them from the local auto-parts stores ok or can
someone recommend something better.
Anyone have answers on how I would use PFC20 to charge nicads if I
decide to go that route?
I have been looking into lithium-ion,(just dreaming really) but it seems
that charging is very similar to lead acid and a lot easier and
straightforward than the nickle chemistries. back to a CCCV profile with
regs.
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 06:07:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Load testing methods
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I don't have an official load tester, but I do have an used UPS
(uninterruptible power supply)
whose internal battery failed. To load test some of my nicads I was going to
string a few together
to match the voltage of the original UPS battery voltage and then plug someting
into the UPS to
match it's load rating. Somewhere in the 300-450 watt range. When I find a pack
that doesn't
perform, I only have to go through those 10 cells. Any reason this won't work?
Dave Cover
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So there are 2 ways to load test? fully charged with a load tester and
> discharged with a light load? Are those shiny metal boxes with the
> heating element in them from the local auto-parts stores ok or can
> someone recommend something better.
>
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 06:36:58 -0800
From: Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Load testing methods
To: [email protected]
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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I have a coat hanger wrapped into a loop, dunked into a pail of water.
Works quite well for a 40-100A load.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: December 7, 2006 6:07 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Load testing methods
I don't have an official load tester, but I do have an used UPS
(uninterruptible power supply) whose internal battery failed. To load test
some of my nicads I was going to string a few together to match the voltage
of the original UPS battery voltage and then plug someting into the UPS to
match it's load rating. Somewhere in the 300-450 watt range. When I find a
pack that doesn't perform, I only have to go through those 10 cells. Any
reason this won't work?
Dave Cover
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So there are 2 ways to load test? fully charged with a load tester and
> discharged with a light load? Are those shiny metal boxes with the
> heating element in them from the local auto-parts stores ok or can
> someone recommend something better.
>
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 07:39:33 -0700
To: [email protected]
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: KillaCycle YouTube Video now over 6000 views!
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Listers,
The video of the KillaCycle's quickest run,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dRpAZci9m0 has just topped 6000
views! This is about half way to making the "most viewed" list for the month.
Most videos on YouTube get about 100 views, so this is quite impressive.
Bill D.
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 07:33:38 -0700
To: [email protected]
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
Different discussion list.
The system (including its fuel tank) would weigh more than the
equivalent Li-Ion battery pack. It would also cost many times more.
Certainly more complicated. It also would not last as long. (They
have earned their reputation as "Fool Cells".)
Anyway, where would you get the hydrogen?
Bill D.
At 06:14 AM 12/7/2006, you wrote:
>Has anyone looked into a fuel cell as either a range extender,
>emergency charger, etc. in an EV?
>
>I imagine they would be too expensive in onesie quanitities to power
>the vehicle, but a small one might be able to charge the vehicle
>over time, if you weren't close to a plug. Might also provide an
>opportunity for alternative fuels - hydrogen and so forth.
>
>--Lawrence Lile
>
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>------_=_NextPart_001_01C71A01.F73F2AB0"
>Subject: Fuel Cells
>Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 07:14:13 -0600
>Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>X-MS-Has-Attach:
>X-MS-TNEF-Correlator:
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Thread-Topic: Fuel Cells
>Thread-Index: AccZpsU3G9MUB33xSy69BZOiQ7+iVwAWtH28
>References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>From: "Lawrence Lile--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 06:44:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Motor arrived: Thanks, Jim!
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Hey Jude
--- Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My newly rebuilt motor arrived yesterday from Jim
> Husted. $DEITY, it's
> beautiful! Copper is so shiny. I can barely wait
> to get it installed
> and cruising again.
Glad she made it there okay 8^) BTW I prefer motor
dork, dont want to get the big man upstairs pissed at
me LMAO!!!
(First I have to get the
> batteries charged, the
> assembly with flywheel reduced and balanced, and the
> paint job done,
> though.)
Man what you been doing while I had it hehe 8^P
> Jim sure packed it a lot smaller than I did. And it
> survived the trip
> with no problems. He even threw in a nice little
> towel. (You need that
> back, Jim?)
Well that's a funny story, I had it all packed in a
nice bigass box (with hub inside) and she weighed in
at 160 lbs. I had to open it up and take out the hub,
still to damn heavy. I had to use a smaller box with
less packing material and got it right at 150 lbs.
Had to ship the hub seperately.
My sis cleans houses for rich folks so I get nice
hand-me-down towels for shop use. I like to coverup
the nice paint jobs and keep the packing from
scratching or getting into the motor, so thanks but I
don't need it back.
> I just wanted to post a public thanks for his hard
> work. I believe it
> is attracting a well-deserved reputation for
> quality.
>
> Thanks, Jim!
> Jude Anthony
Well thanks for the kind words and thanks back for the
trust and effort it took to ship it all the way from
Florida to Oregon. BTW, Jude found that DHL will
ground 150 lbs. across the country for around $80.00
to a business which is a spanking deal.
As to the rev limiter Jude's using the FB1-4001A with
the tailshaft for those imputting on his other thread.
I was glad to hear your looking to install one BTW.
I Kevlar banded the comm but I have no data on how
much more it's gonna help and I'd prefer a closer
customer to test that part out LMAO!
Anyway it's always nice to hear someone who enjoys and
notices the extra love I throw on motors that come my
way. Of course it makes the lift motor end just a
little more drab. Jude what's your web address I know
you posted pics??
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Definitly something wrong
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 07:50:15 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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Hello Jeff,
My first EV had 300 ah batteries, so I thought I should get one of those big
battery load testers that can be adjusted from 0 to 600 amps. At the time,
I was going to work up a steep hill at 300 to 600 battery amps, so I tested
the batteries at this rate.
Normally these units are testing a cranking amp battery which would be set
at 300 amps for about 15 seconds on a 12 volt battery which matches the a
starter load for a ICE and watching the voltage sag. If the voltage starts
to drop below 10 volts and keeps dropping it may be a bad cell.
Before you test a battery, its is better to test them in a discharge state
of about 70% SOS. If you load test a full charge battery it may show good,
or if tested at below 50%, a good battery will show bad.
Later when I install 260 ah batteries, I talk to Jim Lee at Trojan who is a
battery engineer who said to test them at Reserve minutes at 75 Amps.
Therefore all you need is a 75 amp load tester which you then test the
batteries in a 50 to 70 percent SOS.
If the voltage sags does not hold at about 10 volts for 15 seconds or more
and keeps dropping then you found your bad battery.
New or good batteries that is fully charge, I will normally load test each
one for about a minute at the 75 amp load rating. A full discharge test
could be done, which I never did to check the Reserved Minutes at 75 amps.
Jim Lee said, This involves looking up the reserved minutes at 75 amps which
is 145 minutes for my batteries.
Therefore you apply a load of 75 amps on a 100% SOS battery for 145 minutes
to see if this is true.
So, you could look up the Reserve Minutes at 75 amps which a deep cycle
battery is rated at for normal EV driving and test it at that rated for
about 1 or more minutes, if it starts to drop before that rated Reserved
minute time, then the battery is either not charge above 50% SOS or its bad.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 6:19 AM
Subject: Re: Definitly something wrong
> So there are 2 ways to load test? fully charged with a load tester and
> discharged with a light load? Are those shiny metal boxes with the
> heating element in them from the local auto-parts stores ok or can
> someone recommend something better.
>
>
> Anyone have answers on how I would use PFC20 to charge nicads if I
> decide to go that route?
>
>
>
> I have been looking into lithium-ion,(just dreaming really) but it seems
> that charging is very similar to lead acid and a lot easier and
> straightforward than the nickle chemistries. back to a CCCV profile with
> regs.
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 08:38:58 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 6:14 AM
Subject: Fuel Cells
Has anyone looked into a fuel cell as either a range extender, emergency
charger, etc. in an EV?
I imagine they would be too expensive in onesie quanitities to power the
vehicle, but a small one might be able to charge the vehicle over time, if
you weren't close to a plug. Might also provide an opportunity for
alternative fuels - hydrogen and so forth.
--Lawrence Lile
Hello Lawrence,
I am in line to received on the first proto type fuel cells for my EV call
Transformer I and standby power for my home, which I received from the
Electric Fuel Propulsion company that made the proto type Transformer I.
These are not PEM fuel cells (Proton Membrane Exchange) which requires
hydrogen fuel and requires air-compressors, a PEM separator humidifiers to
keep the PEM separators moist 24-hours a day. These units are vary
expensive and may cost up to $3000.00 per KW with accessories.
The other type of fuel cell, AFC (Alkaline Fuel Cell), uses a circulating
liquid electrolyte. It can shut down for long periods which make it ideal
for EV. To shut it down, just turn off the switch and the electrolyte is
automatically removed from the stacks and the AFC becomes inactive.
Instead of using hydrogen, its uses anhydrous ammonia (NH3) which is rich in
hydrogen and one of the best carriers of hydrogen. The hydrogen is produced
from the NH3 in with the fuel cell. NH3 is a very common for used in
agriculture and refrigeration. Here in Montana, I can go down the street to
a supplier who has NH3 in huge 20,000 to 50,000 gallon tanks or you could go
to a supper market to get a bottle of cleaning solution that has NH3 in it.
A 30Kw AFC unit, factory cost is about $6000.00 which is far cheaper than a
PEM that cost over $15,000.00 and then must have a hydrogen delivery system
for it.
To see the research program for AFC units, type in your search engine, Dr.
Kordesch who is the inventor of this unit and the alkaline battery cells.
Roland
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:55:12 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
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On 7 Dec 2006 at 7:14, Lawrence Lile wrote:
> Has anyone looked into a fuel cell as either a range extender, emergency
> charger, etc. in an EV?
Here's a fuel cell hybrid that actually works, or at least workED for a Tour
de Sol in 1999.
http://www.venturer.rutgers.edu/
Roland may know something about the alkaline fuel cell from Bob Aronson's
company (whatever its name is now). Aronson has been talking about fuel
cell hybrids since the early 1970s and the much-publicized "Voltair," which,
despite all the talking, never got beyond the clay model stage. He's been
talking about and promoting the alkaline FC now for at least ten years, but
I don't know if he actually has built a driveable prototype. Roland, do you
know?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 08:06:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: KillaCycle YouTube Video now over 6000 views!
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6001
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Listers,
>
> The video of the KillaCycle's quickest run,
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dRpAZci9m0 has just topped 6000
> views! This is about half way to making the "most viewed" list for the month.
>
> Most videos on YouTube get about 100 views, so this is quite impressive.
>
> Bill D.
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 09:34:26 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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The fuel cell plants are in Germany and are in production of building 5 kw
stacks using the AFC. They have a military contract to build them for field
use which replaces the portable 5 kw generators which are noisy.
At the Apollo Energy Systems at Pompand Beach, Florida, they are test
different combination of fuel cells stacks with a smaller cobalt battery
pack for a EV system. The batteries will provide the acceleration and the
fuel cell is normally use for a constant cruse at a constant voltage.
City driving at different speeds, the batteries will be use more than the
fuel cells. If too small a capacity of a fuel cell is use, than it cannot
be on line with the batteries that are being use to drive the EV. Therefore
a larger fuel cell is need to be able to charge the batteries while the fuel
cell drives the EV.
There is many combinations and testing of this system to be able to use it
in a EV. The method I would use is to drive my EV on the batteries, and when
the EV is park. The fuel cell than charges the batteries. This is fine if
you driving long distances that take the battery down to or below 50% SOS.
If you are driving many short distances and can charge at home, it may not
be cost effective.
The problem here is that they like to use full size cars, that they think
that the public would like, rather than a baby buggy car. They produce only
proto's type only. Then they sell the license rights to anyone who uses the
technology to make EV's.
Bob want me to send my Transformer I back to them, for a fuel cell
conversion, but I told them I could do the conversion my self or send me a
EV so I will have no down time on EV driving while one is being converted.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells
> On 7 Dec 2006 at 7:14, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
> > Has anyone looked into a fuel cell as either a range extender, emergency
> > charger, etc. in an EV?
>
> Here's a fuel cell hybrid that actually works, or at least workED for a
> Tour
> de Sol in 1999.
>
> http://www.venturer.rutgers.edu/
>
> Roland may know something about the alkaline fuel cell from Bob Aronson's
> company (whatever its name is now). Aronson has been talking about fuel
> cell hybrids since the early 1970s and the much-publicized "Voltair,"
> which,
> despite all the talking, never got beyond the clay model stage. He's been
> talking about and promoting the alkaline FC now for at least ten years,
> but
> I don't know if he actually has built a driveable prototype. Roland, do
> you
> know?
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:43:24 -0600 (CST)
Subject: green power talk forum
From: "Sean Albiston" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
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Hello Everyone,
I'd like to point out a new Web based forum to discuss solar, wind, and
microhydro electricity, home energy efficiency, solar hot water systems,
space heating and cooling, green building materials and home design,
passive solar, and more. It is intended as a friendly place for anyone
with an interest in renewable energy, green building, or sustainable
living. On- or off-grid, professional or do-it-yourself'er, everyone is
welcome:
http://www.greenpowertalk.org/
The Web forum format has a few advantages over an E-mail based system.
Information is threaded and split into forums, so it's easy to separate
topics and read/participate in only those that interest you. Information
is more persistent, it's easy to search and read what was discussed in the
past. There's also a private message system to send notes to individual
members that bypass public discussion, and E-mail addresses are not
publicly revealed for spambots to harvest.
The Green Power Talk forum is brand spanking new at this time, and needs
people to get the discussion started. I hope it will become a great
resource for those interested in wind energy, and since you're reading
this list that means you too! Please consider registering and
participating at Green Power Talk.
Thanks! Rob
-----
If you can think of an email discussion list that might have individuals
interested in this new forum, please forward the above message.
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:05:02 -0700
To: [email protected]
From: Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed
>If you are driving many short distances and can charge at home, it may not
>be cost effective.
They are not cost effective for ANY distance, compared to
Li-Ion cells.
If you build a 200 mile range car, you will find that:
1) A 200 mile Li-Ion EV is MUCH cheaper than a 200 mile fuel cell car.
2) A 200 mile Li-Ion pack weighs less than the fuel cell and its fuel tank.
3) It will cost less to run a Li-Ion car per mile than a fuel cell
car (and it is MUCH more energy efficient.)
4) The Li-Ion pack will last longer than the fuel cell (and be less
expensive to replace.)
5) You can fill up the Li-Ion EV almost anywhere.
6) With a big charger (or a dump pack) you can fill up the Li-Ion EV
faster than you can a 200 mile fuel cell car. (Little known fact.)
7) The Li-Ion EV is off-the-shelf, proven technology.
Why on earth would you want a fuel cell car? It makes no
sense whatsoever.
Investing time and money in fuel cells quite effectively
diverts the money away from other, much more practical, alternative
fuels programs like EVs and biodiesel.
Bill Dube'
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 10:15:32 -0800
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Motor arrived: Thanks, Jim!
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Jim Husted wrote:
> Hey Jude
>
Admit it. You've been waiting years to use that line.
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:33:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells
To: [email protected]
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I was reading somewhere about a new sub that is nuclear powered, that would
NEVER need refueling.
This would be much better for an EV car than fuel cells. "Infinite" range.
I've been working on a energy storage unit like this and have made one the size
of a shoebox. :)
- Tony
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Different discussion list.
The system (including its fuel tank) would weigh more than the
equivalent Li-Ion battery pack. It would also cost many times more.
Certainly more complicated. It also would not last as long. (They
have earned their reputation as "Fool Cells".)
Anyway, where would you get the hydrogen?
Bill D.
At 06:14 AM 12/7/2006, you wrote:
>Has anyone looked into a fuel cell as either a range extender,
>emergency charger, etc. in an EV?
>
>I imagine they would be too expensive in onesie quanitities to power
>the vehicle, but a small one might be able to charge the vehicle
>over time, if you weren't close to a plug. Might also provide an
>opportunity for alternative fuels - hydrogen and so forth.
>
>--Lawrence Lile
>
>
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Subject: RE: KillaCycle YouTube Video now over 6000 views!
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 11:47:33 -0700
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
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Sorry but I can't make out the display board on my computer.
What was 1/4 mile time, speed and reaction time?
Also what was the light show near the end of the run?
Thanks,
Nate
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 7:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: KillaCycle YouTube Video now over 6000 views!
Listers,
The video of the KillaCycle's quickest run,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dRpAZci9m0 has just topped 6000 views!
This is about half way to making the "most viewed" list for the month.
Most videos on YouTube get about 100 views, so this is quite
impressive.
Bill D.
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Definitly something wrong
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 09:30:05 -0500
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Hi Jeff and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Definitly something wrong
Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2006 05:14:45 -0800
>This is my first winter on the batteries. I have run them
>daily from march 1 thru june 1 rechargeing at work, then
>july 1 thru now 13 miles (new job) not rechargeing at work.
>so about 8*30 = 240 1/2 cycles or I estimate 120
>cycles.(WAG)
>
>5kwh/13 miles. Yeah it sucks, often it is worse than that.
>A noticaeable drop after I blewup motor, took it apart and
>put it all back togather. But the alignment is so bad that
>I am thinking that is the issue.(when it rains, I get
>significantly better mileage.)
>
>Don't heat the batteries, Didn't even put them in a box. I
>thought it doesn't really get that cold here. That a 20%
>loss of range on the original 26miles would be acceptable.
>Never even put a heater back in the car. I could heat the
>batteries in the cabin but it would be near impossable to
>heat the ones under the hood. Strangely enough one of the
>ones in the more protected and warmer cabin seem to have
>the problem.
You have found out the hard way why you need to keep
batteries all at the same temp. I put mine all together just
for that reason as lead batts radically charge differently
at different temps.
I'd discharge them with the heater until the stinkers
show up with dropping voltage, going down to 10% charged or
so on all the batts.
The problem with the charged batt test is the acid is
stronger, what's left, so you can still get a high current
test out dispite having much less capacity.
If you need to replace one, it needs to be about the
same age, use as the other batts in the string or more
balancing problems will show up. Unless I was racing, I'd
never own AGM's because of their high costs, more than new
ni-cads over 10 yrs!! Much more expensive vs BB600's.
Your alignment could easily be the cause of your high
wthr/mile consumption. You diffenently have a drag problem
somewhere. Though if you drive a lot at high speed, over 50
mph, any Beetle, new or old, with their bad aero is going to
suck power.
>
>I have regulators. They hav a red light for when the
>batteries drop below 10V that latches and stays there. That
>red light comes on almost equally accross all the
>batteries. Last weekend, i turned down the current control
>to under an amp and gave it 24Hors of "equalization"
That's a sign you may just have low cap by the cold
which can easily drop your range in 1/2 if you don't keep
all your lead batts above 70F, preferably above 80F. Also
lubes, other temp sensitive drags like tires come just as
the batts won't put out the power.
-So there are 2 ways to load test? fully charged with a load
tester and
discharged with a light load? Are those shiny metal boxes
with the
heating element in them from the local auto-parts stores ok
or can
someone recommend something better.
Not as good for AGM's as above. Though if the pack is
fairly discharged, it can work well.
-Anyone have answers on how I would use PFC20 to charge
nicads if I
decide to go that route?
If you have an E meter or Lee Hart's soon to be done
EV dash, you can just turn off the charger when the ni-cads
get 90-110% power they used. I like not fully charging them
except once a week or so, doing an equalizing cycle to cut
watering needs. As most of the heating, ect happens in the
last 5% charge, by not doing it that high much should
increase life. It did with my smaller 14amphr SAFT flooded
ni-cads after I overcharged, hurt some cells.
Since you don't have to fully charge them, you can
use a timer for most charging once you get to know your
ni-cad batts, only baby sittng them once a week for
equalization is the cheap way to go. But always use the
timer in case you forget them, Been there, done that ;^0
-I have been looking into lithium-ion,(just dreaming really)
but it seems
that charging is very similar to lead acid and a lot easier
and
straightforward than the nickle chemistries. back to a CCCV
profile with
regs
Li-ions are very different and expensive to, not easy
to charge if you want long life.
Ni-cads are hard to beat for ease of charging if you
have a power out, power in device with an output relay like
E meter have EV dash will have.
The BB600's are almost a pefect match for replacing
YT's, Orbital's and with no power loss from the cold,
ability to discharge much deeper, last 20+ yrs make them
superior to AGM's in performance, range and costs,
especailly in cold weather areas. While you do have to water
them, that can be cut a lot by careful charging so only once
every 2-3 months, depending on service, charger.
Jerry Dycus
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:54:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cells
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Hey Tony
I was wondering... Can you say 3 car island?? LMAO!!!
At least when a sub crashes we have a few miles of
ocean between us and it. Nothing like I5 being shut
down for a 1000 years LMAO.
Cya
Jim Husted
--- Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was reading somewhere about a new sub that is
> nuclear powered, that would NEVER need refueling.
>
> This would be much better for an EV car than fuel
> cells. "Infinite" range.
>
> I've been working on a energy storage unit like this
> and have made one the size of a shoebox. :)
>
> - Tony
>
> "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote: Different discussion list.
>
> The system (including its fuel tank) would weigh
> more than the
> equivalent Li-Ion battery pack. It would also cost
> many times more.
> Certainly more complicated. It also would not last
> as long. (They
> have earned their reputation as "Fool Cells".)
>
> Anyway, where would you get the hydrogen?
>
> Bill D.
>
> At 06:14 AM 12/7/2006, you wrote:
> >Has anyone looked into a fuel cell as either a
> range extender,
> >emergency charger, etc. in an EV?
> >
> >I imagine they would be too expensive in onesie
> quanitities to power
> >the vehicle, but a small one might be able to
> charge the vehicle
> >over time, if you weren't close to a plug. Might
> also provide an
> >opportunity for alternative fuels - hydrogen and so
> forth.
> >
> >--Lawrence Lile
> >
> >
>
>
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Fuel Cell
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:05:49 -0700
MIME-Version: 1.0
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 10:05 AM
Subject: "Fool" cells (was: Fuel Cells)
>
> >If you are driving many short distances and can charge at home, it may
> >not
> >be cost effective.
>
> They are not cost effective for ANY distance, compared to
> Li-Ion cells.
>
> If you build a 200 mile range car, you will find that:
>
> 1) A 200 mile Li-Ion EV is MUCH cheaper than a 200 mile fuel cell car.
> 2) A 200 mile Li-Ion pack weighs less than the fuel cell and its fuel
> tank.
> 3) It will cost less to run a Li-Ion car per mile than a fuel cell
> car (and it is MUCH more energy efficient.)
> 4) The Li-Ion pack will last longer than the fuel cell (and be less
> expensive to replace.)
> 5) You can fill up the Li-Ion EV almost anywhere.
> 6) With a big charger (or a dump pack) you can fill up the Li-Ion EV
> faster than you can a 200 mile fuel cell car. (Little known fact.)
> 7) The Li-Ion EV is off-the-shelf, proven technology.
>
> Why on earth would you want a fuel cell car? It makes no
> sense whatsoever.
>
> Investing time and money in fuel cells quite effectively
> diverts the money away from other, much more practical, alternative
> fuels programs like EVs and biodiesel.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
It look like you are comparing Li-Ion to PEM fuel cells that are not cost
effected which uses hydrogen. I am talking about AFC which does not need a
hydrogen fuel.
Anyway this is what I do, experiment with all types of power systems.
Instead of purchasing a emergency standby unit from Caterpillar which will
cost about $40,000.00 for 33 kw with super chargers that can run at a high
elevations, the AFC will be cheaper to run as a standby unit.
How many Li-Ion cells would I need on our utility vehicles or cabins in our
remote area to provide power?
Roland
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Regenerative Cruising
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 10:53:33 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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> Another great example is the old bicycle lights that have a generator
> attached to a wheel...
> Don
Oh, you mean like this pic:
http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/ev/Model-T_as_genset.jpg
This is a pic of a Model-T Ford showing a wheel-driven generator takeoff and
array of Edison Nickel Iron batteries in the back of the Ford with electric
distribution panel...kinda cool.
It was billed as a demonstration of being able to light your home by running
your car. It was taken in Portland, Or. in 1916.
Side of the car reads: "Thomas A. Edison, House Lighting Plants, Distributed
by West Coast Specialty Co., Portland, Or.
Sorry for the crappy scan...
-MT
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2006 12:33:28 -0700 (MST)
Subject: Re: New battery technology
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
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Hmm, looks like typical marketing hype, pretty thin on details.
453kg of batteries is about the same weight as most conversions carry in
PbA batteries and their range figures don't look much better. In fact,
since they don't list what speed they were driving at, their range might
even be less than with a comparable weight in PbA batteries.
We'll see if they ever actualy market a battery, but so far I'm not
impressed.
> I just was sent this.....
> http://www.electroline.com.au/elc/feature_article/item_122006b.asp
> A rechargeable battery made from carbon, plastic, and traditional cheap
> salts.....
>
> Here's hoping they go ahead with large scale production
>
>
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