EV Digest 6213
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Belktronix?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: ceramic heater short
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: any one know more about this?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Hairball question
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) pros and cons for this big old van
by Jim Tucker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Hairball question
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: ceramic heater short
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) EVLN(2008 Mazda Tribute SUV Hybrid)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EVLN(Nissan's 2009 Pivo hybrid using Toyota parts)-long
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EVLN(NZ energy strategy doesn't help plug-in EVs)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: 2-Speed Transmission Using a Differential?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: any one know more about this?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: pros and cons for this big old van
by "Sean Korb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Power Steering (was 88 Jetta power steering stuff??)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
15) Re: Power Steering (was 88 Jetta power steering stuff??)
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: any one know more about this?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: I need to find someone to ship my EV from Provo, UT to Atlant
a, GA
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) FW: Newbie - NiMH vs VRLA pack choice
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Belktronix?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery test
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 12, 2006, at 9:23 PM, Jack Murray wrote:
why? what reason is there other than equalization?
The tapped batteries are being cycled deeper every cycle and will set
your range (and possibly pack life if you need to go deep often.) Add
to that how you are going to have to lean into the equalizers (waste
power at the rest of the batteries) to get the pack properly charged.
You end up totally reliant on a number of regs all working or things go
bad in a hurry (I would want Rudman regs in a very dry place if I was
going to do that, but somehow I don't think he would recommend this
approach.)
Pack tapping is a hack! I bet Astrodyne (or other manufacturer) has a
nice DC to DC converter that could take pack voltage and provide a 24v
output. How hard would that be to include?
Paul "neon" G.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 13, 2006, at 1:30 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Unless I am mistaken, there should be no way of powering a lightbulb
across
the two legs of a switching relay
Actually, there is. If the bulb is a 60 watt bulb then its resistance
is around 240 ohms. That will be about 1/2 amp, times 120 volts,
equalling 60 watts (its worth noting that a light bulbs resistance does
change with applied voltage, but if you are near the rated voltage its
not much.) The key is to remember, "about 240 ohms."
The heater is going to be a much lower resistance. Perhaps its a single
element out of a 1500 watt, 120 VAC heater. Its resistance will be
about 10 ohms. Ceramic heaters do have a changing resistance based on
voltage, but again the key is, "about 10 ohms."
Now, if we run power from one end of the pack, through the bulb,
through the heater, and to to the other end of the pack we have a
circuit. Current will flow and voltage will be dropped across each
resistance. The higher the resistance the greater the voltage drop.
Most of the voltage will drop across the bulb. In fact, in the case as
I outlined it, 240/250 (96%) of the pack voltage drop will be across
the bulb. The bulb will be fully lit (especially since you are starting
with over the 120 volts the bulb is likely rated for.)
These are the two basic truths of any electrical circuit:
Voltage = amps * resistance
Watts = volts * amps
HTH,
Paul "neon" G.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the tongue in cheek post Rod. I always need a laugh in these
insane times.
Eric, always consider the source of your news! Actually Jimmy Clein did not
invent electrolysis. It was actually discovered by Michael Faraday in 1834.
These people making these BS claims want you to believe they invented
something new by running an internal combustion engine on hydrogen. Yes you
can make an internal combustion engine run on hydrogen but of course it is
not efficient. It takes more energy to make the hydrogen than you get out of
it.. That is never mentioned in the plans you purchase online or by the
perpetrators. You then burn that hydrogen in an engine that is 25 to 30 %
efficient at best. This makes no logical sense whatsoever. I have my doubts
that this gentleman actually has a contract with the government to build a
hydrogen powered Hummer. Like I said, consider the source of your news.
Roderick Wilde
PS: put "run your car on water" in a Google search. You will get tons of
this crap.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 4:57 PM
Subject: Re: any one know more about this?
Neat report from Fox News. Considering it's 'fair and
balanced reporting' I'm sure this has merit ;-)
Just in case this is true I'll buy some stock in
water.
Just think, the great lakes will become the new middle
east of transportation fuel.
Maybe Steve Clunn could add a windmill on the hood of
future conversions for extended range in the desert.
What do you think Steve? time for a new windmill
contest?
Rod
--- Eric Wiemer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/06/waterfuel.html
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12/13/2006
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--- Begin Message ---
I was just poking around my car while it was charging and noticed something
unexpected. I have
been looking into a possible leakage that would drain the pack in the course of
a few days.
Admittedly, the pack wasn't getting fully charged, but it was definitely
draining what life it
had. (I have NiCads, so I'm not worried about draining them down.) I have a
contactor on both the
positive and negative side of the pack.
With the negative lead of my meter hooked to the negative pack cable I was
looking to see where I
could find pack voltage. What surprised me was that I had full pack voltage on
both sides of the
positive contactor. This contactor has the two sense lines the hairball uses to
tell when the main
contactor is closed. So they main contactor circuit is passing full pack
voltage through to the
controller, all the time. Is this normal? Is this part of the pre-charge
circuitry?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVers,
New to this list and new to EV's in general, but I'm catching up. I'd
appreciate any and all feedback on this vehicle as a possible conversion. '76
Chevy van, body is in great shape, and the interior is bare so I have maximum
fliexibility for battery boxes, etc. The auto tranny is about to go anyway and
there's over 130k miles. I know this is a heavy, very unaerodynamic vehicle,
but I own it and I've had no luck getting a buyer for it. Second question: if
I go with it, what manual tranny would be preferable? Is there a manual
tranny out there that iis considered the best for conversions or do most just
use the one that came with the vehicle?
Thanks,
Jim
---------------------------------
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question
on Yahoo! Answers.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dave,
That is why I have one contactor on the negative side and one positive
contactor before the main contactor. The first two contactors are normally
call safety contactors, which shuts off voltage to the controller and also
to any DC-DC unit, amp and volt meters.
These two safety contactors and the hair ball is turn on by the ignition on
position and then the main contactor by the start position.
You cannot have all the contactors come on at the same time by the ignition
start switch, because the pre charge circuit may not sense any voltage on
the main contactor while the ignition switch is turn to the on position
only.
I also have the two safety contactors control by a second set of switches,
so I can emergency kill the power.
Also when I install the two safety contactors, I no longer have battery
power bleed through the Zilla shunt, to the motor commentator that have
brush dust tracking down on to the motor shaft and to ground. I use to have
epoxy coated aluminum battery boxes which would conduct the most positive of
the battery to frame.
This completed the battery positive to negative circuit which would
discharge my batteries. I went to a motor shop and pick up some motor
enamel spray and coated the front of the commentator down to the motor shaft
and up the the bearing surfaces of the shaft.
I also coated the entire surface of the motor with motor enamel, until it
was glass smooth. This allow for the brush dust to blow out better.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:38 PM
Subject: Hairball question
> I was just poking around my car while it was charging and noticed
> something unexpected. I have
> been looking into a possible leakage that would drain the pack in the
> course of a few days.
> Admittedly, the pack wasn't getting fully charged, but it was definitely
> draining what life it
> had. (I have NiCads, so I'm not worried about draining them down.) I have
> a contactor on both the
> positive and negative side of the pack.
>
> With the negative lead of my meter hooked to the negative pack cable I was
> looking to see where I
> could find pack voltage. What surprised me was that I had full pack
> voltage on both sides of the
> positive contactor. This contactor has the two sense lines the hairball
> uses to tell when the main
> contactor is closed. So they main contactor circuit is passing full pack
> voltage through to the
> controller, all the time. Is this normal? Is this part of the pre-charge
> circuitry?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Unless I am mistaken, there should be no way of powering a
> lightbulb across the two legs of a switching relay
If there is only one relay interrupting power to the heater, then
connecting a light bulb across the relay contacts *will* light the bulb.
> A household example of what is happening:
> take you light switch out of the wall at home.
> detach the hot side and apply to one side of a lightbulb
> detach the side that goes to the ceiling fixture and apply to
> the other side of the test lightbulb.
>
> This lightbulb should not light unless the wire feeding the
> ceiling fixture is wirenutted in the ceiling fixture to the
> ground/neutral wire.
Correct.
> This is what I see happening in my car.
Which suggests that your heater may be wired in the same manner as a
typical household light bulb: one side of the heater directly connected
to one side of the pack, and the other side connected to the pack
through a switch (relay). If you place a light bulb across the relay,
it will light unless the heater core (or its wiring) has failed *open*.
If you have relays interrupting power to both sides of the heater, then
connecting a light bulb across one of them should not result in the bulb
lighting unless the other relay is closed.
If the heater has failed shorted, then when you turn it on (close the
relay), you should measure near zero voltage across it (and whatever
fuse you have protecting it should probably blow open). If the heater
is operating normally, you should measure essentially full pack voltage
across it when it is on.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(2008 Mazda Tribute SUV Hybrid)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.technologynewsdaily.com/node/5471
Mazda Tribute SUV Hybrid Electric Vehicle Submitted by
Technology News... on Wed, 2006-12-13 22:12.Automotive Tech
Mazda North American Operations will unveil an all-new Tribute
SUV Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) at the 2007 North American
International Auto Show.
The heavily revised 2008 Tribute HEV will be the first
advanced-technology vehicle dedicated to clean air that Mazda
will sell to the public when it becomes available later in the
year.
The Tribute HEV will be one of the least-polluting vehicles on
the road, yet still delivers the performance. With a combined
power output of its gasoline engine and electric motor of 155 hp
while meeting the strict Super Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle
(SULEVII) and Advanced Technology Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle
(AT-PZEV) standards in California the strictest emission
regulations a gasoline-fueled vehicle can meet.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Nissan's 2009 Pivo hybrid using Toyota parts)-long
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.southtynesidetoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=1111&ArticleID=1927368
NISSAN GOES GREEN WITH PIVO 13 December 2006
By ANGELA TAGGART [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[image
http://www.southtynesidetoday.co.uk/getedimage.aspx?ImageID=625846
]
CAR maker Nissan is to develop a new green hybrid car by 2010.
The Japanese car maker, which employs 4,300 people at its
Sunderland plant, is aiming to improve its impact on the
environment.
Its new environmental programme will also focus on reduction of
carbon dioxide emissions.
The car maker is due to bring out a hybrid car next year, the
Pivo, using parts from rival Toyota, whose Prius model has been a
success.
The new policy will see Nissan develop a three-litre car which
can run at least 100km on a full tank, the introduction of an
electric car early next decade and produce and market lithium ion
batteries for electric cars.
Nissan has been lagging behind rivals Toyota and Honda in the
race to develop green technology.
===
http://icnewcastle.icnetwork.co.uk/0500business/businessnews/tm_headline=nissan-gears-up-for--green--hybrid-car&method=full&objectid=18253070&siteid=50081-name_page.html
Nissan gears up for 'green' hybrid carDec 13 2006
By The Journal
Carmaker Nissan is to develop a new green hybrid car by 2010 in a
bid to prove its `green' credentials.
The Japanese car maker, which employs 4,300 people at its
Sunderland plant, is to include CO2 emission reduction as one of
its main business priorities.
Nissan's UK public relations manager David Swerdlow said: "On a
business level, we have always had three key performance
indicators, which include quality, cost and delivery.
"The Nissan green programme is a shift in policy that raises CO2
emission reduction to one of these main business drivers for the
first time."
The carmaker is due to bring out a hybrid car next year using
parts from rival Toyota, whose Prius model has been a success.
This new policy sets out new goals for Nissan to develop a car
that will run for 100km on three litres of fuel; launch an
electric car early in the next decade; and launch a new division
to develop, produce and market lithium ion batteries for electric
cars.
Nissan has lagged behind Toyota and Honda in the race to develop
this technology because of top executive opinion, most notably
Nissan president Carlos Ghosn, who described hybrid vehicles as a
"terrible business proposition" only 15 months ago.
Critics have claimed the high cost of hybrid cars outweighs their
environmental benefit but with improvements in technology year on
year, their profitability is improving.
This latest move by Nissan highlights the amount of pressure now
being placed upon car companies from environmental lobbyists,
environmentally conscious consumers and strict anti pollution
legislation. In Europe, carmakers are under increasing pressure
to meet voluntary targets to cut greenhouse gas emissions by
2009, although a recent study found that only five of the top 20
brands were on track to meet these goals.
===
http://www.newcarnet.co.uk/Nissan_news.html?id=6200
Nissan plans in-house hybrid car for 2010 13.12.2006
Nissan Motor Co. will sell a hybrid car using its own technology
in the US and Japan sometime in the fiscal year beginning April
1, 2010.
The announcement, from a carmaker that has resisted hybrids, was
part of a broad "Nissan Green Program 2010" announced today.
[...]
Other environmental initiatives such as a "test" Nissan electric
vehicle could be a reality early in the next decade, announced
Toshiyuki Shiga, Chief Operating Officer of the Nissan Motor
Company.
And in a bid to reduce CO2 emissions, Nissan plans to accelerate
development of plug-in hybrid technology for future vehicles.
===
http://www.eemsonline.co.uk/news/today
[...]
Nissan unveils environmental strategy
Nissan has announced its new mid-term environmental action plan,
Nissan Green Programme 2010. This plan is designed to fulfil
Nissans environmental philosophy of symbiosis of people,
vehicles and nature and contribute to a sustainable mobile
society. This includes launching new vehicles: a three-litre
car that runs 100km on three litres of fuel, an electric vehicle
early in the next decade and a hybrid vehicle for launch in
2010.
[...]
In the early part of the next decade, [...] Nissan is preparing
for a new company to develop, produce and market advanced
lithium-ion batteries, a key technological component for all
electric powertrains. In addition, it will accelerate
development of plug-in hybrid vehicles.
[...]
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(NZ energy strategy doesn't help plug-in EVs)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0612/S00172.htm
Plug-in electric cars initiative "Impractical"
Wednesday, 13 December 2006, 3:42 pm
Press Release: The Clean Green Car Co MEDIA STATEMENT
Plug-in electric cars initiative in Governments draft energy
strategy impractical says The Clean Green Car Company
Hybrid technology a reality now for New Zealand motorists to
reduce petrol use by up to half and produce up to 90% less
noxious emissions
New Zealand, Auckland Wednesday 13 December, 2006 - The Clean
Green Car Company, New Zealand's only hybrid car specialist, has
applauded the Governments initiatives for resilient, low carbon
transport as proposed in its draft energy strategy released this
week.
Stephen Pollard, Director for The Clean Green Car Company says,
The proposed policies encourage a far greater uptake of hybrid
cars along with the uptake of bio fuels. Hybrid cars, combining a
petrol-powered engine with an electric motor, improve fuel
economy by using up to half as much petrol as an equivalent
non-hybrid car and produce up to 90% less noxious emissions, so
are the most practical direction to improve the efficiency of New
Zealands private car fleet.
The strategy however contains statements that appear to have
shortcomings and not be practical to deploy. Specifically,
comments such as the introduction of plug-in electric vehicles
(hybrids or wholly electric) in significant numbers is
problematic. It assumes that major international carmakers will
start producing plug-in vehicles in significant numbers. In the
short to medium term they remain concept vehicles because of the
limitations of current battery technology. Furthermore, the New
Zealand market is not large enough to drive any significant
change in this area.
Pollard continues, Plug-in hybrid cars are also only currently
available overseas as an after market retro fitted kit for the
Toyota Prius at a cost of over $15,000. While there are some
small manufacturers producing electric cars, these are not
currently sold in New Zealand. The vehicles limited size,
performance, range and price offerings also make them impractical
for most motorists and once again battery technology is the
limiting factor.
Pollard concludes, Almost all major car manufacturers are now
producing, or will be producing, vehicles using existing hybrid
technology from Toyota. Hybrid cars as opposed to plug-in cars
offer comparable performance, size and reliability to modern
non-hybrids, which will encourage acceptance from New Zealand
motorists initial resistant to compromise.
The other advantages of the existing hybrid technology are:
1. It is available now
2. Offers significantly improved fuel economy and correspondingly
lower CO2 emissions.
3. Produces levels of noxious emissions (local air quality or
smog) that already meet or exceed future European emissions
standards.
4. Utilises existing infrastructure.
5. Utilises NiMh battery technology that is considered
environmentally friendly and offers minimal disposal issues at
the end of the cars life.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
> Not really. With the gear reduction (plus the differential final drive
> ratio of normally 1:3.5), the small motor only needs to hold a
> fraction of the torque.
You described connecting the two motors to the "axles" of the
differential and taking the output from the pinion (driveshaft), so
there is no gear reduction provided by the differential between the
small and large motors. The 3 or 4:1 ratio is between the driveshaft
and axles and is provided by the ring and pinion gears.
You would need to rely on whatever external gearing you provide between
the differential and small motor to allow it to react the big motor's
torque without having to develop as much torque as the big motor.
If you really wanted to pursue this, you should probably consider using
a differential unit from a FWD vehicle since the hypoid ring and pinion
gearset in a RWD differential are significantly less efficient.
You might also consider using a pair of identical 72V sep-ex motors
instead of one big and one small. The use of sep-ex allows easy regen
with off-the-shelf controllers, and being able to drive or regen both at
the same time could be an advantage.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Old story. This one has been on the EV list before. It's bogus. "Water and
gasoline hybrid," huh? Powering the entire world? Right. ;-)
"Journalists" who report on alleged science should be required to have
degrees in at least one of the sciences.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/13/06, Jim Tucker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi EVers,
New to this list and new to EV's in general, but I'm catching up. I'd
appreciate any and all feedback on this vehicle as a possible
conversion. '76 Chevy van, body is in great shape, and the interior is bare
so I have maximum fliexibility for battery boxes, etc. The auto tranny is
about to go anyway and there's over 130k miles. I know this is a heavy,
very unaerodynamic vehicle, but I own it and I've had no luck getting a
buyer for it. Second question: if I go with it, what manual tranny would
be preferable? Is there a manual tranny out there that iis considered the
best for conversions or do most just use the one that came with the vehicle?
Maybe you could change the rear gear to 4:30:1+ maybe sourced from an
ambulance, and use Steve Powers' associate's bus motors with no
transmission. You could fit the motor under the doghouse and have room up
front for 10 or more batteries leaving more untainted cargo space. You
should have enough torque to get the van moving easily with the lower gear
and get the revs up quickly for cooling. Do EVs typically use lowrider
style hydraulic equipment for power steering? I'm new to the EV world
myself.
--
Sean Korb [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.spkorb.org
'65, '68 Mustangs, '68 Cougar, '78 R100/7, '71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave,
It's a used Leeson 180 VDC PM motor I bought off Ebay - around 1 hp.
It's a totally enclosed motor and it's mounted under the car just behind where
the old ICE engine exhaust exited the engine compartment.
It sees some weather down there.
It's direct coupled to an original VW pump.
It seemed to me I didn't need that thing screaming down there.
- and it is mounted underneath and right next to the front seats - I was
worried about the noise.
So I thought I would find a little controller to slow it down.
A small DC controller for that voltage is not easy to find.
Lee Hart was very kind to suggest a controller circuit and I looked into
building one, but I got bogged down.
But then I read a string of posts on the list discussing AC-DC converters and
how they can be run on a DC input.
I stumbled across KB Electronics controllers and found one of their AC units
matched my application pretty close.
So I called KB up and asked them if I could run it on 144 VDC. They said sure.
It's a PWM controller model no. KBWD-16 good for like a 1/2 hp with the right
plug in resistor.
I found a distributor here in Chicago and bought it for around $100.00.
I run it at about 25% or 35% of its range and I hear mostly the pump. It is
quiet though.
The controller, I think, tends to compensate when the motor is loaded up to
maintain a constant speed.
The power assist is just as it was with the IC motor.
It idles at 2 amps @ 144 volts, goes up a couple amps when turning and jumps up
to the current limit of 5 or 6 amps when the wheels are turned to lock.
And there is a whole bunch of limits and stuff that are adjustable - but that
would mean I would have to read the instructions.
The controller is mounted in a little 6 x 6 aluminum box with a little computer
processor fan to cool it.
The controller micro-welds relay contacts really great when you turn it on.
I got tired of opening up the hood, taking the cover off the relay box and
looking around for a wood twig to coax the contacts open,
so I stuck a resistor in the circuit and another relay to short the resistor
out with a time delay.
Seems to be working nice now but I don't have any more room for relays.
If the controller blows up, I will let you know, but since I'm being a little
more gentle starting it up through the resistor, hopefully it will live.
Hope that this might help someone considering different power steering
solutions.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> --- Dana Havranek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > I have a pump direct
> > coupled to a 3/4 hp DC motor running off a little speed controller and I
> > can
> dial thing way down
> > and still get assist.
> >
>
> Could you give us some of the details? What motor? What controller?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info. I have a PM motor from a treadmill that I'd like to use,
but haven't had any
luck on the controller side. I'll give KB a look.
--- Dana Havranek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dave,
>
> It's a used Leeson 180 VDC PM motor I bought off Ebay - around 1 hp.
> It's a totally enclosed motor and it's mounted under the car just behind
> where the old ICE
> engine exhaust exited the engine compartment.
> It sees some weather down there.
> It's direct coupled to an original VW pump.
>
> It seemed to me I didn't need that thing screaming down there.
> - and it is mounted underneath and right next to the front seats - I was
> worried about the
> noise.
> So I thought I would find a little controller to slow it down.
>
> A small DC controller for that voltage is not easy to find.
> Lee Hart was very kind to suggest a controller circuit and I looked into
> building one, but I got
> bogged down.
> But then I read a string of posts on the list discussing AC-DC converters and
> how they can be
> run on a DC input.
>
> I stumbled across KB Electronics controllers and found one of their AC units
> matched my
> application pretty close.
> So I called KB up and asked them if I could run it on 144 VDC. They said sure.
>
> It's a PWM controller model no. KBWD-16 good for like a 1/2 hp with the right
> plug in resistor.
> I found a distributor here in Chicago and bought it for around $100.00.
>
> I run it at about 25% or 35% of its range and I hear mostly the pump. It is
> quiet though.
> The controller, I think, tends to compensate when the motor is loaded up to
> maintain a constant
> speed.
> The power assist is just as it was with the IC motor.
> It idles at 2 amps @ 144 volts, goes up a couple amps when turning and jumps
> up to the current
> limit of 5 or 6 amps when the wheels are turned to lock.
> And there is a whole bunch of limits and stuff that are adjustable - but that
> would mean I would
> have to read the instructions.
> The controller is mounted in a little 6 x 6 aluminum box with a little
> computer processor fan to
> cool it.
>
> The controller micro-welds relay contacts really great when you turn it on.
> I got tired of opening up the hood, taking the cover off the relay box and
> looking around for a
> wood twig to coax the contacts open,
> so I stuck a resistor in the circuit and another relay to short the resistor
> out with a time
> delay.
> Seems to be working nice now but I don't have any more room for relays.
>
> If the controller blows up, I will let you know, but since I'm being a little
> more gentle
> starting it up through the resistor, hopefully it will live.
>
> Hope that this might help someone considering different power steering
> solutions.
>
> Dana
>
>
> -------------- Original message ----------------------
> From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > --- Dana Havranek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > I have a pump direct
> > > coupled to a 3/4 hp DC motor running off a little speed controller and I
> > > can
> > dial thing way down
> > > and still get assist.
> > >
> >
> > Could you give us some of the details? What motor? What controller?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Dave Cover
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes that is a famous (infamous) video. He claims to make mysterious
"special" hydrogen + oxygen from electrolysis that he calls "HHO",
"hybrid hydrogen", or "Aquygen" with properties that normal hydrogen +
oxygen does not have. This has also been called "Brown's Gas" or
"Rhode's Gas" by prior inventors. I don't see any way his claims could
be possible nor has the scientific community backed him up (or his many
predecessors making similar claims). Oxygen-Hydrogen welding has been
around for a very long time but for technical reasons it is inferior to
common welding methods in common applications. He claims to be able to
run a car or dramatically extend car MPG. Again, old scam, no evidence
at all.
I believe this is his website:
http://hytechapps.com/aquygen
Having said that, I'm going to point out this is "quack science" and
thus Off-Topic. Even if it were not seen as quackery it's still OT
unless you can make electricity out of it.
Danny
Eric Wiemer wrote:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/06/waterfuel.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your initial email did not make it to my inbox yet, so I
can only respond to Myles reply.
There are several options in transporting, with little
variations depending on whether it will move on its own
power or is dead and whether it fits in a box truck or not ;-)
First option is do it yourself.
Fly to Provo on Friday night, pick up a U-haul with car trailer / dolly
and make sure that the car is treated exactly the way you like it
on the way back.
Second option is to find someone do exactly this for you, if
you can't find the time, or it would save you some work days
which will help pay for the trip. Maybe have a family member or
friend that needs a job, a responsible student or anyone else
that has a valid drivers license, enough experience to be safe
and has time on their hands.
Third option would be to ask all local towing companies, especially
the smaller ones, and wrecking yards, if they want to transport a
car. Then you know THEY will do the job.
Fourth is to find one of the actual transporters and work
directly with them. I do not know how to find them, though.
I have used option 1 and 3.
When I called a tow company near the place where the wrecked
Prius was located that I bought off Ebay, the tow truck driver
said that on Saturday he wanted to go to Great America with the
family, so my car delivery was only a few miles away and if I
had no objection to his family in the tow truck then he had a
good price for bringing my car over on that Saturday.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: I need to find someone to ship my EV from Provo, UT to
Atlanta, GA
Shipping a vehicle is really like rolling dice.
The main things you are interested in are:
* timely shipment
* undamaged shipment
* insured if your shipment is damaged, lost or stolen
* constrained cost
Most all the transport haulers you will contact are brokers---i.e. they most
likely won't be hauling your vehicle. This is key to understanding that
they really have no control over the first 3 of the 4 items above.
Sure, they'll give you a delivery date or window----but that'll slip.
Sure, for a price they'll assure you the vehicle won't be offloaded and
reloaded at transport hubs---a likely occassion for damage to the
vehicle---but testimonials by others show this gets violated routinely.
Sure, they'll assure you that your vehicle will be hauled in an enclosed
trailer, but even that isn't guaranteed even if you pay for it.
Finally, they'll assure you that the hauler will ensure your vehicle for
$50k or so...
But they really have no control of any of the above.
As Don alluded to, the broker gets your contract and down payment, then
essentially put your job out for bid by the haulers.
In my case, I wanted assurance that my antique electric vehicle would be
hauled in an enclosed trailer, with no transfers at hubs and with an ensured
hauler and with delivery within a week. I was also told that "most likely"
one of their own vehicles would haul my car because they have their own
enclosed trailers.
The result?
It took about 2 weeks to get the car shipped.
I never received any proof that the hauler was ensuring my vehicle.
I never received any gaurantee that the vehicle wouldn't be offloaded at
hubs.
I did get told eventually that the hauler was a different company and was
even given a phone #, which is good.
I paid over $500 more to go with this broker/shipper for the specific
reasons that they conned me into believing that they would ship themselves
and that they'd pick it up within a 2-day window and deliver within a week.
They did neither.
I did receive the vehicle in great shape, from a local Portland motorcycle
hauler and that's great.
I thought I'd get premium service for premium $$$$---rather, I left feeling
that next time it may best be to just roll the dice with one of the lower
bids.
I was lucky.
-Myles Twete
1921 Milburn Light Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm designing the battery system for a small-car (Honda Civic or something
like it) EV that I'm planning on building. This will be using a brushless DC
motor, 144V, 25kW (peak) - I have two motors, so if it's too lethargic I can
put on the second motor and controller. Anyways, I was originally planning
on using either Optima Yellow-Tops (D34's or two strings of D51's) or maybe
the Excide 34XCD. While searching the archives, I found some references to
building a NiMH pack out of F or D cells. Has anyone here done it recently?
Would you recommend it? I need to keep the battery pack below about 250 kg
for the vehicle safety inspection here (can't exceed GVWR), and a range of
60km would be nice - a 10 to 15 kW*h pack would probably be fine. I worked
on an EV maybe 12 years ago, but it has been a while and things change in
that amount of time. Thanks!
Dale Ulan
Calgary, Alberta, Canada
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm Lee,
the draw from the 24V is not specified, so it is anyone's
guess as what it may need.
This is clearly a home-built controller - nothing wrong
with that (we have discussed it a couple weeks ago too)
but the design may not be optimised for the total integration
and some unnecessary shortcuts were taken.
One example is that the 24V input is next to the control
inputs, so it is questionable if it needs to be isolated
from the pack and goes to vehicle ground, like the control
input should be, or that it truly is a pack tap.
How would you remove the 24V current draw from the pack
when the car is not used? Have one more contactor
disconnect the 24V input?
That already shows that the designer did not keep the
total system in mind when designing for a low cost
controller.
My controller draws 0.3A from the 12V battery.
Over 1 day that accumulates to more than 7 Ah.
That is a very serious imbalance on a 100 Ah pack,
if you need to pump 7% current more into already full
batteries to force it into the two (or three or four)
tapped batteries.
The simplest solution was to have a DC/DC converter
in the controller, like every well designed commercial
controller has.
Alternative to make this controller work is to get an
external DC/DC converter (or AC/DC power supply) and
hook that up to supply 24V from the full pack voltage.
Then you can live with the original contactors and
breakers and do not need to worry about imbalance.
But it would be less of a kludge if the controller had
a DC/DC intergrated....
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:56 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Belktronix?
Phil Marino wrote:
> It's still a bad idea to tap part of the pack. Creating a battery
> imbalance is never a good idea, even if you have the ability to
> re-balance them.
Well, to be fair...
Tapping the pack *is* a bad idea when you draw significant amounts of
power from the tap. This happens when you run contactors or headlights
from it, or something like an E-meter that draws current 24 hours a day.
But we're talking about a controller here. It's probably only "on" for
maybe 1 hour a day (1/2 hour driving to work, 1/2 hour driving home). If
the tap only draws control power, it may be only 100ma or less. That's
only 0.1 amphour of imbalance. On a 100 amphour pack, that's so low as
to be insignificant. The normal variations in self-discharge rates
between batteries are larger than this.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the end of charge voltage for these monoblocks?
If it is less than 14 volts, they may be undercharged and will respond to
individual charging.
If they are over 14 volts, they are undercapacity and need to be replaced.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 11:19 PM
Subject: RE: Battery test
> David,
>
> Do the bad batteries continue to drop or will they go to 9 - 10V
> and stay there?
> That would be a sign of a bad cell - often caused by reversing it
> during a just-too-long trip or a drive after an incomplete charge.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of David Brandt
> Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 5:37 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Battery test
>
>
> I think you've already got your answer (at least they are easier to get
to).
>
> Either replace those three or try remedial measures on them like
individual
> charging for those three for a few cycles, though it sounds like they got
> consistently overcharged, and if that is the case, they need to be
replaced.
>
>
>
>
> David Brandt
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 9, 2006 7:12:13 PM
> Subject: Battery test
>
>
> In suspision of a bad battery I performed the following test after 5
> monthes of daily use @ about 14 miles a day.
> In actuality about 3000 miles.
>
> Average temperature 40's, 24 Excide Orbitals. not insulated, sept 2005
> and apr 2005 Datecodes.
> baseline:
> Charged and let rest over 12 hours
> Measured Open Circuit Voltage then voltage after 15 seconds at at 150Amps
> test:
> went for a drive removing 3Kwh
> rest for 1 hour
>
> Measured Open Circuit Voltage then voltage after 15 seconds at at 150Amps
> Full Charge 3Kwh Down
> battery location OCV @150 Amps trend OCV @150Amps
trend
> 1 underhood 12.88 11.8 steady 12.48 11.6
steady
> 2 underhood 12.88 11.8 steady 12.46 11.4
steady
> 3 underhood 12.90 11.8 steady 12.52 11.6
steady
> 4 underhood 12.77 11.7 steady 12.37 11.4
steady
> 5 underhood 12.93 11.8 steady 12.55 11.6
steady
> 6 underhood 12.83 11.8 steady 12.44 11.5
steady
> 7 underhood 12.92 11.9 steady 12.53 11.6
steady
>
> 8 behindseat 12.88 11.9 steady 12.50 10.8
> dropping fast
> 9 behindseat 12.84 11.9 steady 12.50 10.8
> dropping fast
> 10 behindseat 12.64 11.6 steady 12.27 11.4
steady
> 11 behindseat 12.68 11.6 steady 12.30 10.6
> dropping fast
> 12 behindseat 12.88 11.9 steady 12.53 11.6
steady
> 13 behindseat 12.89 11.9 steady 12.54 11.7
steady
> 14 behindseat 12.86 11.85 steady 12.53 11.8
steady
> 15 behindseat 12.75 11.9 steady 12.43 11.75
steady
> 16 behindseat 12.91 11.9 steady 12.57 11.8
steady
> 17 behindseat 12.865 11.8 steady 12.52 11.8
steady
> 18 behindseat 12.89 11.8 steady 12.52 11.8
steady
> 19 behindseat 12.83 11.8 steady 12.44 11.6
steady
> 20 behindseat 12.87 11.7 steady 12.46 11.75
steady
>
> 21 underhood 12.93 11.8 steady 12.57 11.8
steady
> 22 underhood 12.91 11.8 steady 12.55 11.8
steady
> 23 underhood 12.87 11.8 steady 12.52 11.8
steady
> 24 underhood 12.89 11.9 steady 12.52 11.6
steady
>
> Conclusions #'s 8,9,11 are low capacity.
> Should I take another reading at say 4kwh down? What happened to the
> 7kwh capacity? :(34ah 1hr rate * 288V =9792 * .8 = 7.8kwh)
> My tester is only good for 15 seconds at a shot.
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know.
> Ask your question on www.Answers.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
