EV Digest 6214
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: any one know more about this?
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery test
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: any one know more about this?
by "David Sharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery posts
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: A different kind of EV video :)
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) copy of PB-6
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: A different kind of EV video :)
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Load testing methods
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: any one know more about this?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: copy of PB-6
by "Derek Barger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: A different kind of EV video :) .. 3 wheeler EV .. stability issues
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: copy of PB-6
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Good News....
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 2-Speed Transmission Using a Differential?
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: any one know more about this?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Details on Why Nimh Cannot be Paralleled
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: I need to find someone to ship my EV from Provo, UT to Atlant a, GA
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Details on Why Nimh Cannot be Paralleled
by "Edward Ang" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) HHO Welding - still OT
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: any one know more about this?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: any one know more about this?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 2-Speed Transmission Using a Differential?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Load testing methods
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Belktronix?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/14/06, David Roden (Akron OH USA) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Old story. This one has been on the EV list before. It's bogus. "Water and
gasoline hybrid," huh? Powering the entire world? Right. ;-)
Not that I believe it without seeing it, but mentions of a way of
mixing water / hydrocarbon to run an ICE have been cropping up lately
which is not the "same old stuff" that we've heard before. Well,
it's a new one on me at least - here is an example.
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/bingofuel/pmcjlnen.htm
Anyway it's just a comment, not for for further discussion here.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Regulators are set for 14.77Volts but That is what needs to be verified
next weekend. Perhaps the drop in end of charge voltage "never seeing
blue light,never hitting 354V" problem I asked about when winter started
was actually an indication of regs that need adjustment (if they are
adjustable, haven't looked) and not cold weather.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I recall my chemistry there is a method of disassociating water into
oxygen & atomic hydrogen. Perhaps this is the H-H referred to. Atomic
hydrogen yields more energy on recombination (combustion) to water than
molecular (H2) hydrogen.
David Sharpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2006 4:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: any one know more about this?
Yes that is a famous (infamous) video. He claims to make mysterious
"special" hydrogen + oxygen from electrolysis that he calls "HHO",
"hybrid hydrogen", or "Aquygen" with properties that normal hydrogen +
oxygen does not have. This has also been called "Brown's Gas" or
"Rhode's Gas" by prior inventors. I don't see any way his claims could
be possible nor has the scientific community backed him up (or his many
predecessors making similar claims). Oxygen-Hydrogen welding has been
around for a very long time but for technical reasons it is inferior to
common welding methods in common applications. He claims to be able to
run a car or dramatically extend car MPG. Again, old scam, no evidence
at all.
I believe this is his website:
http://hytechapps.com/aquygen
Having said that, I'm going to point out this is "quack science" and
thus Off-Topic. Even if it were not seen as quackery it's still OT
unless you can make electricity out of it.
Danny
Eric Wiemer wrote:
> http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/06/waterfuel.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems to be universal agreement that the stud is not suitable for high amps. It
will creep through the lead.
----- Original Message ----
From: Tim Gamber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 6:33:19 PM
Subject: Battery posts
Hi everyone
I was planning on using optima's 55 smp/h battery for my conversion when i
found out that optima sells a 75 amp/h battery. This battery only comes with
the top battery post or only the top battery stud. which one is better for
an EV which uses high amps.
_________________________________________________________________
Off to school, going on a trip, or moving? Windows Live (MSN) Messenger lets
you stay in touch with friends and family wherever you go. Click here to
find out how to sign up! http://www.telusmobility.com/msnxbox/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
very nice
..peekay
(if one makes a 3wheeled ev, would it be more
stable if the 2 wheels are up front and the 1 wheel
is at the rear .. steering still would be by that one
wheel at the rear .. shd be more stable)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: A different kind of EV video :)
> Loved it. Good job. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dana Havranek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 2:41 PM
> Subject: Re: A different kind of EV video :)
>
>
> > Really nice, Nikki!
> > Enjoyed your video.
> > Dana
> >
> > -------------- Original message ----------------------
> > From: nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Hi everyone,
> > >
> > > I've just uploaded a video which I made earlier on Saturday showing
> > > off my little one-seat EV.
> > >
> > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a399fIxp9-E
> > >
> > > Comments are welcome - it's designed to be a non-EV enthusiast's EV
> > > report :)
> > >
> > >
> > > Nikki.
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________
> > > Old car? New tricks?
> > > Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
> > >
> > > E-minor isn't just a key any more...
> > > _______________________________
> > >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date:
11/12/2006
>
>
Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone used or know anything about this potbox? Supposed to be a direct
replacement made in India.
ebay # 150070853551
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the Mini EL is pretty stable - but I see where you're going.
The only fault I'd give the El in terms of stability is the way it
really badly under-steers if you take a corner too fast. Because it's
only 3 and a half feet wide you can normally get away with it (you
get used to going in a corner low and coming out high)
There are of course some EVs that are the other way around (2+1) but
I think they steer from the front. I'm sure someone will correct me
if I'm wrong ;)
As a bit of an update to the video I've had over 1.790 views now.
I've been emailed by people from all over (and I've even had the
honor of talking to Chris Paine about it!)
As a consequence there will be more EV reviews to follow. Currently
arranging something with the NICE car as well as the TWIKE.
Ultimately it'd be nice to get this going as a web-based review series.
Nikki.
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
On 14 Dec 2006, at 13:44, peekay wrote:
very nice
..peekay
(if one makes a 3wheeled ev, would it be more
stable if the 2 wheels are up front and the 1 wheel
is at the rear .. steering still would be by that one
wheel at the rear .. shd be more stable)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: A different kind of EV video :)
Loved it. Good job. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Havranek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: A different kind of EV video :)
Really nice, Nikki!
Enjoyed your video.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Hi everyone,
I've just uploaded a video which I made earlier on Saturday showing
off my little one-seat EV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a399fIxp9-E
Comments are welcome - it's designed to be a non-EV enthusiast's EV
report :)
Nikki.
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date:
11/12/2006
Send instant messages to your online friends http://
uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
> If you want to test capacity without ruining your batteries
> (yes, I have forgotten to disconnect the load in time in the past),
> a simple setup is:
> - a mechanical alarmclock
> - a 1000W inverter (can be a cheap square wave version)
> - a dozen light sockets and bulbs
Or, skip the inverter and just use 12VDC bulbs. The capacity tester I
built for my home use is based on an array of standard household (A17)
screw-base lamp sockets into which I fit the desired number of 50 and
100W 12V bulbs. Each 100W bulb draws about 8A and each 50W bulb about
4A. 50W 12V bulbs are available at Home Depot; the 100W bulbs I got
from a renewable energy supplier. Alternative sources include:
<http://www.cvfsupplycompany.com/dilibu12vlib.html>
<http://www.sailboatstuff.com/lt_medscr.html>
Light bulbs provide a very nearly constant current load, especially over
the range of voltage (e.g. 10.5-12v) we are interested in. 6V 75W bulbs
are also available for those wishing to capacity test GC batteries, and
there are commercial testers for this purpose made by Lester (and
probably others) that will do a standard 75A discharge (but possibly
only on a 36V pack).
If you have an E-Meter with the RS232 option, then it can provide you
with data logging capability for the test, and a bit of simple software
on the PC can disconnect the load at whatever voltage floor you choose.
(This is how my tester works.)
Alternatives to the E-Meter include RS232 DMMs or one of the many USB or
parallel port data acquisition modules that are available. 12-bit USB
modules can be had for about $100 (14 and 16-bit versions are available,
but each additional 2-bits roughly doubles the cost). A 16-bit serial
module can be had for about $250, but this starts to get near enough to
the cost of an E-Meter that it might be a better investment.
Lee Hart once mentioned an 8-channel 12-bit A/D kit that interfaces to
the PC parallel port; it appears MPJones no longer carries it, but it is
still available for about $60:
<http://store.qkits.com/moreinfo.cfm/QK118>
If one is happy with a bit less data, it has been suggested in the past
to use a Rudman reg to provide the low-voltage cutoff signal so that it
disconnects the load and removes power from the mechanical clock used to
time the discharge. As long as the load current is known and relatively
constant this can be sufficient. If the Mk3 regs are now available,
this might be a cost-effective way to monitor/log the voltage during
discharge as well as providing the low-voltage cutoff.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As far as I know this cutting technique is already in use. They did say 4
ounces of water in 100 miles. They said it could run exclusivelsy on HHO
but the demo car was a hybrid. It seems to me that HHO is easier to
electrolize than H & O2. They probably said 4ounces in 100 miles because
that's all the alternator could put out in amps to electrolize that much
water. They call what they have an additive I can see a small benefit.
When they get a version running purely on electricity I'll bet the battery
pack will be as big as the ones in our ev's. Unless he's figured how to get
more HHO fuel than amps used his invention will be used for welding and not
pushing a car down the road. I'll believe it when the Army is using it to
power Hummers. http://hytechapps.com/ This is their welding website. . I'd
be interested to know how many amp hrs/voltage it takes to electrolize
enough HHO to run a car. At that point the baloney stops. Lawrence
Rhodes....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I purchased one of these from this person. It is a very bad version of
the Curtis PB-6. I had nothing but problems. I would not recommend
this unit for anyone. Took forever to get to me. Construction is poor.
The arm is handmade out of soft metal and bends easily. The worst part
is the pot they use does not even go full range from 0 to 5k. I think
the max I was getting was about 3k. This company refused to replace
the pot for me. I finally just put on the Curtis model on my car and I
am much happier.
Derek
www.HighTechSystemsLLC.com
On 12/14/06, Joseph H. Strubhar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Has anyone used or know anything about this potbox? Supposed to be a direct
replacement made in India.
ebay # 150070853551
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi nikki .. that was quick .. the response i mean
(btw, you look very professional in the video)
i have been tinkering with this 3 wheel idea for
a long time .. the steering is usually done by the
one wheel .. but placing the two wheels in the
front should be more "stable" when turning
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "nikki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 8:25 PM
Subject: Re: A different kind of EV video :)
> Well, the Mini EL is pretty stable - but I see where you're going.
>
> The only fault I'd give the El in terms of stability is the way it
> really badly under-steers if you take a corner too fast. Because it's
> only 3 and a half feet wide you can normally get away with it (you
> get used to going in a corner low and coming out high)
>
> There are of course some EVs that are the other way around (2+1) but
> I think they steer from the front. I'm sure someone will correct me
> if I'm wrong ;)
> <snipped>
> Nikki.
>
>
> On 14 Dec 2006, at 13:44, peekay wrote:
>
> > very nice
> >
> > ..peekay
> >
> > (if one makes a 3wheeled ev, would it be more
> > stable if the 2 wheels are up front and the 1 wheel
> > is at the rear .. steering still would be by that one
> > wheel at the rear .. shd be more stable)
> >
___________________________________________________________
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease
of use." - PC Magazine
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i could find out .. since i am stationed presently in india
who makes it ? any links, info, addy,
telephone number ?
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 8:19 PM
Subject: copy of PB-6
> Has anyone used or know anything about this potbox? Supposed to be a
direct
> replacement made in India.
>
> ebay # 150070853551
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date:
11/12/2006
>
>
___________________________________________________________
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease
of use." - PC Magazine
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those who monitor the EV Discussion List, or the CalCars News, or
read various journals on this subject, this is probably old news. Of
course, we have known this for decades..
Cut and Pasted from Sientific American, compliments of CalCars News
----------------------------------------------------------------------
News
December 13, 2006 Spare Power Sufficient to Fuel Switch from Gas to
Electric Cars Existing U.S. power plants could provide enough juice to
switch 84 percent of the 220 million American vehicles on the road from
gasoline to electricity.
Now a new analysis from the U.S. Department of Energy's Pacific
Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL) offers more good news: existing
electric power plants could fuel 84 percent of "light duty" vehicles if
all 220 million cars and trucks converted to electric power overnight.
"We're delighted to see solid third-party confirmation of what the
people who know best--the utilities--have been saying for sometime,"
says Felix Kramer, plug-in hybrid owner/evangelist and founder of
Calcars.org.
The analysis noted that the capacity of the U.S. power infrastructure is
underutilized. Every evening--and during days of low demand--there is a
large amount of spare capacity that could easily be tapped. By charging
cars and trucks with electricity at night, American drivers could reduce
the nation's dependence on foreign oil while potentially cutting power
prices as well.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/13/06, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Edward Ang wrote:
> Not really. With the gear reduction (plus the differential final drive
> ratio of normally 1:3.5), the small motor only needs to hold a
> fraction of the torque.
You described connecting the two motors to the "axles" of the
differential and taking the output from the pinion (driveshaft), so
there is no gear reduction provided by the differential between the
small and large motors. The 3 or 4:1 ratio is between the driveshaft
and axles and is provided by the ring and pinion gears.
Actually, I should have made it more clearly. The small motor would
be connected to the normal driveshalf of the differential, the large
motor to one of the axles, and power is taken from the other axles. I
am sorry that the ASCII diagram is not that clear.
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> As far as I know this cutting technique is already in use. They did say 4
> ounces of water in 100 miles. They said it could run exclusivelsy on HHO
> but the demo car was a hybrid. It seems to me that HHO is easier to
> electrolize than H & O2. They probably said 4ounces in 100 miles because
> that's all the alternator could put out in amps to electrolize that much
> water. They call what they have an additive I can see a small benefit.
How could there be a benefit?
I mean, if we believe the laws of physics, we know that nothing is 100%
efficient.
Loss happens.
So, given a commercial alternator is AT BEST 85% efficient (if it's a
several hundred $$$ Bosch) and given that getting hydrogen via electrolysis
is at best 50% efficient (big ass SWAG), and assuming that burning the
hydrogen with the existing fuel yields the same efficiency, then AT BEST,
you can only LOSE energy with this.
I mean, if it takes 1 gallon of fuel to go 30 miles down the road with
little alternator load, then add mechanically loading of the alternator to
generate electricity to electrolyze hydrogen and the losses from mechanical
to hydrogen fuel will be at least 57.5%.
So, if the alternator uses 10% of the available motor torque, a 30mpg
unloaded economy would drop to 27mpg + 3*0.57, or 28.7mpg.
Considering this reduced economy, plus the added weight, cost and
complexity, why bother?
The ONLY way it would make sense is if the efficiency of electrolyzing the
water was vastly more efficient AND IF the alternator were connected as part
of DYNAMIC BRAKING, retrieving up to 43% of braking energy. Since I didn't
really read the original post, maybe that was the key here...?
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The system is able to balance the packs even if one is fully charged.
It would just stop charging the fully charged pack and continue to
recharge the weaker ones.
However, this scheme produces the undesired effect of voltage
differences because the packs (modules) do not reach a full charge at
the same time. This would cause more imbalance problems if the
modules do not get to rest for at least a few hours before the next
discharge cycle.
Even so, the modules would slowly get in sync after a few recharge
cycles like you would expect. This is how we could provide the
FlexRange feature -- you could easily increase your range by adding
another module without changing anything. The system voltage remains
the same.
On 12/13/06, David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Thanks for posting that. So once the test packs were out-of-balance, how did
you rebalance them? Trickle charge? Or did you just run a few cycles with your
BMS? Thanks for the info, I'm rooting for great success for what you are doing.
----- Original Message ----
From: Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 11:30:30 AM
Subject: Details on Why Nimh Cannot be Paralleled
We finally got a chance to post some graphs. Some of you may have
seen these graphs already.
http://www.airlabcorp.com
http://www.airlabcorp.com/web/charge_discharge_curves.htm
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
____________________________________________________________________________________
Any questions? Get answers on any topic at www.Answers.yahoo.com. Try it now.
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
you can find lots of auto transporters at www.movecars.com Mike young
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 1:26 AM
Subject: RE: I need to find someone to ship my EV from Provo, UT to Atlant
a, GA
Your initial email did not make it to my inbox yet, so I
can only respond to Myles reply.
There are several options in transporting, with little
variations depending on whether it will move on its own
power or is dead and whether it fits in a box truck or not ;-)
First option is do it yourself.
Fly to Provo on Friday night, pick up a U-haul with car trailer / dolly
and make sure that the car is treated exactly the way you like it
on the way back.
Second option is to find someone do exactly this for you, if
you can't find the time, or it would save you some work days
which will help pay for the trip. Maybe have a family member or
friend that needs a job, a responsible student or anyone else
that has a valid drivers license, enough experience to be safe
and has time on their hands.
Third option would be to ask all local towing companies, especially
the smaller ones, and wrecking yards, if they want to transport a
car. Then you know THEY will do the job.
Fourth is to find one of the actual transporters and work
directly with them. I do not know how to find them, though.
I have used option 1 and 3.
When I called a tow company near the place where the wrecked
Prius was located that I bought off Ebay, the tow truck driver
said that on Saturday he wanted to go to Great America with the
family, so my car delivery was only a few miles away and if I
had no objection to his family in the tow truck then he had a
good price for bringing my car over on that Saturday.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 10:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: I need to find someone to ship my EV from Provo, UT to
Atlanta, GA
Shipping a vehicle is really like rolling dice.
The main things you are interested in are:
* timely shipment
* undamaged shipment
* insured if your shipment is damaged, lost or stolen
* constrained cost
Most all the transport haulers you will contact are brokers---i.e. they
most
likely won't be hauling your vehicle. This is key to understanding that
they really have no control over the first 3 of the 4 items above.
Sure, they'll give you a delivery date or window----but that'll slip.
Sure, for a price they'll assure you the vehicle won't be offloaded and
reloaded at transport hubs---a likely occassion for damage to the
vehicle---but testimonials by others show this gets violated routinely.
Sure, they'll assure you that your vehicle will be hauled in an enclosed
trailer, but even that isn't guaranteed even if you pay for it.
Finally, they'll assure you that the hauler will ensure your vehicle for
$50k or so...
But they really have no control of any of the above.
As Don alluded to, the broker gets your contract and down payment, then
essentially put your job out for bid by the haulers.
In my case, I wanted assurance that my antique electric vehicle would be
hauled in an enclosed trailer, with no transfers at hubs and with an
ensured
hauler and with delivery within a week. I was also told that "most
likely"
one of their own vehicles would haul my car because they have their own
enclosed trailers.
The result?
It took about 2 weeks to get the car shipped.
I never received any proof that the hauler was ensuring my vehicle.
I never received any gaurantee that the vehicle wouldn't be offloaded at
hubs.
I did get told eventually that the hauler was a different company and was
even given a phone #, which is good.
I paid over $500 more to go with this broker/shipper for the specific
reasons that they conned me into believing that they would ship themselves
and that they'd pick it up within a 2-day window and deliver within a
week.
They did neither.
I did receive the vehicle in great shape, from a local Portland motorcycle
hauler and that's great.
I thought I'd get premium service for premium $$$$---rather, I left
feeling
that next time it may best be to just roll the dice with one of the lower
bids.
I was lucky.
-Myles Twete
1921 Milburn Light Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/13/06, Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Actually, we have data showing it is not even safe to leave them
> connected in parallel for a few hours. One or more would always try
> to recharge the others.
I suspect that is due to the peak detection algorithms which stop charging
NiMH batteries when a certain negative DV/dt is detected.
As long as neither battery goes into the negative dv/dt territory (i.e.
neither has reached the peak), such positive feedback heating shouldn't take
place and the batteries should not self-discharge. So avoid the peak, avoid
the problem.
Myles,
Good point. Negative dv/dt is one of the important full charge
detections. But, it should not be relied on alone, especially on a
long string.
Your analysis shows that you have a deep theoritical understanding on
Nimh batteries. In reality, it is much more complex like you would
expect.
Avoiding the peak could only take you so far. You have got to bring
them to full charge and equalization one day. And, even without this
intra-module balancing problem, avoiding the peak would only work for
less than about 2 packs in parallel.
When you connect more than 2 packs in parallel, say 5 in parallel, it
takes only 1/4 from any 4 packs to bring the weak one to a full
charge. And, when your keep your SOC at about 80-90% to avoid the
peak issue, at least one pack will reach 100% soon if you leave them
connected.
This is only part of the problems. The other big problem is that if
you do not manage the SOC actively and try to keep the SOC below
80-90%, you will have some packs at below 60% for sure. This would
cause even more problems. And, it is often too late when you finally
notice it.
Nevertheless, if it's bad to parallel cells due to the desire to peak
charge, then it's bad to parallel plates within a NiMH battery, which is
exactly what is done.
Every cell is made up internally of multiple paralleled plates.
When a subcell (i.e. a plate pair) reaches its peak, adjacent cells will
subsequently discharge into it and further charging will do nothing but heat
the cell further. But why don't these self-discharge and overheat during
the post-peak detection phase? Fortunately, the chemistry and age being
identical within a cell, the time difference to reach peak for adjacent
cells is fairly constrained.
Consequently, little differential stored energy is available to dump to the
adjacent cells.
Don't forget the share the same electrolyte. So, there is more than
one path to keep them in sync.
I suspect that subcells do overheat to an extent---it's just a magnitude
difference less than charging paralleled cells. And the more you allow a
battery (or batteries in parallel) to go into the negative dv/dt realm, the
greater the risk that one or more cells (or plates within a cell) haven't
themselves reached the peak yet and more power will continue to be pumped
in. Once the adjacent cells and subcells reach peak, they collectively
reflect the negative dv/dt to the charger, and charging will end. After
charging, there will certainly be some discharging between cells and
subcells, but it shouldn't be significant UNLESS a significant number of
cells or subcells failed to reach peak, but a minority of cells or subcells
DID reach peak. In that scenario, the less charged batteries will discharge
LOTS of energy into the fully peak-charged battery causing it to overheat.
So it seems to me that the key for any success in paralleling NiMH cells is
to ensure that on charging, either:
1) Ensure ALL cells get charged to BELOW the peak and thermally sense them
to be sure that none have reached the peak.
2) Ensure ALL cells get fully past the peak.
However, the killer in this is that the NiMH batteries can have different
peaks.
And for that reason AND the fact that these batteries do exhibit the
negative dv/dt post-peak charging behavior, it seems that the only real safe
way to parallel them is (1) above.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
You should get some cells and run some experiments to collect data
before investing in a larger quantity.
And, to answer your question on your previous email. Connecting 2
packs with individual shunts is in fact connecting them in parallel.
Shunts are nothing but a piece of wire with a known resistance.
--
Edward Ang
President
AIR Lab Corp
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--- Begin Message ---
On further Internet research on the Browns Gas and Rhodes Gas issue ... note
the following site.
http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm
and its text is as follows:
The following is from an anonymous former researcher:
Dear Eric,
I worked with a researcher & manufacturer of hydrogen/oxygen gas generators
during the mid- 1980's. I am a welding engineer and entered that particular
business fresh from a senior technical position of 10 years with a prominent
fortune 500 group. I eventually left the hydroxy gas generator industry in
1990. During my tenure with the company I co-authored several patents
related to combustion modification and flame thermal map manipulation of
stoichiometric 2H2O2 gas mixtures. At this time I became directly involved
in litigation proceedings with Yull Brown. Unfortunately, my colleagues and
I wasted a considerable sum of money investigating Brown and his mostly
ridiculous claims.
Hearing Brown referred to as a "Bulgarian physicist", "world famous
scientist" etc. is extremely nauseating bull****, the. . . . . .More
--- End Message ---
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Right. As a basic sanity check, he can't possibly have a process which
makes more energy than it takes in. So if he DID have a new form of
hydrogen and oxygen gas with more energy in it, it would take more
energy to create. TANSTAFL.
He provides no evidence at all that he produces a new form of hydrogen
(or oxygen). Hydrogen (or oxygen) does not normally exist in monatomic
form for long, it would immediately recombine in the tank, thus it would
require a magical form of storage too.
It seems unlikely that such a well-researched subject as hydrogen itself
would have a previously unknown condition, and then this state would
continue to be unnoticed by mainstream science for years and years. It
would have radical effects on many, many aspects of chemistry.
As a basic sanity check, there are a large number of engine designers
who would make him rich overnight if he could get an extra 5% of mpg or
even just reduce emissions. What he's trying to do is look for people
to get into these "distributor" arrangements, basically looking for
money from the lay public.
Danny
Myles Twete wrote:
As far as I know this cutting technique is already in use. They did say 4
ounces of water in 100 miles. They said it could run exclusivelsy on HHO
but the demo car was a hybrid. It seems to me that HHO is easier to
electrolize than H & O2. They probably said 4ounces in 100 miles because
that's all the alternator could put out in amps to electrolize that much
water. They call what they have an additive I can see a small benefit.
How could there be a benefit?
I mean, if we believe the laws of physics, we know that nothing is 100%
efficient.
Loss happens.
So, given a commercial alternator is AT BEST 85% efficient (if it's a
several hundred $$$ Bosch) and given that getting hydrogen via electrolysis
is at best 50% efficient (big ass SWAG), and assuming that burning the
hydrogen with the existing fuel yields the same efficiency, then AT BEST,
you can only LOSE energy with this.
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There are several whole functioning companies building brown gas
generators and they are used for welding all over the world.
Not a scam.
On Thu, 14 Dec 2006 6:40 am, David Sharpe wrote:
If I recall my chemistry there is a method of disassociating water into
oxygen & atomic hydrogen. Perhaps this is the H-H referred to. Atomic
hydrogen yields more energy on recombination (combustion) to water than
molecular (H2) hydrogen.
David Sharpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2006 4:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: any one know more about this?
Yes that is a famous (infamous) video. He claims to make mysterious
"special" hydrogen + oxygen from electrolysis that he calls "HHO",
"hybrid hydrogen", or "Aquygen" with properties that normal hydrogen +
oxygen does not have. This has also been called "Brown's Gas" or
"Rhode's Gas" by prior inventors. I don't see any way his claims could
be possible nor has the scientific community backed him up (or his many
predecessors making similar claims). Oxygen-Hydrogen welding has been
around for a very long time but for technical reasons it is inferior to
common welding methods in common applications. He claims to be able to
run a car or dramatically extend car MPG. Again, old scam, no evidence
at all.
I believe this is his website:
http://hytechapps.com/aquygen
Having said that, I'm going to point out this is "quack science" and
thus Off-Topic. Even if it were not seen as quackery it's still OT
unless you can make electricity out of it.
Danny
Eric Wiemer wrote:
http://www.ebaumsworld.com/2006/06/waterfuel.html
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
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Edward Ang wrote:
(View with fixed-width font)
It would work, but the gears aren't multiplying torque. The traction
motor needs to produce 100% of the wheel torque, regardless of whether
the disk brake is locked or the PM motor is functioning as a generator
(or motor).
However, the battery current is lower (for a given wheel torque) reduced
when the PM motor is functioning, because the power it generates
subtracts from battery current.
The Toyota Prius operates somewhat like this setup.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Philippe Borges wrote:
What I like with a MOSFET load (compared to coat hanger) is that
you have precise and selectable constant current...
Bipolar transistors are probably a better candidate for a selectable
constant current load device. They naturally tend to be current sinks,
and they are cheaper for a given amount of power dissipation.
The entire circuit can be as simple as a pot between base and collector.
Use a big old surplus darlington power transistor. If it has a gain of
(say) 1000, then every 1 ma into the base produces 1 amp of collector
current, independent of battery voltage.
A more precise scheme would be an adjustable voltage regulator IC (like
an LM317, a pot to set its output voltage, and one or more bipolar
transistors, each with an emitter resistor so they share current. Like this:
+bat________________________________
| LM317 | |
| _______ |c |c
|___|in out|________|/_____|/ NPN darlington transistors
| |_______| | b |\ b |\ (TIP140 etc.) as many as
| adj| < |e |e needed for desired power
| | R1 < | |
| | 240 < | |
C1 _|_ | | < < Emitter resistors
10uF ___ |_____\< < < (one per transistor)
| R2 /< < < sized for 5v drop at
| 1k pot < | | maximum current.
-bat__|______________|_______|______|
With the LM317, transistors, and resistors all on one heatsink, the
LM317's overtemperature and overcurrent protection will protect them all.
For example, suppose you want to load a 12v battery at 100 amps. The
TIP140 is rated 10 amps max, so you need 10 of them. The emitter
resistors are R = 5v / 10amps = 0.5 ohms each, and need to dissipate 5v
x 10a = 50 watts each.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Cor van de Water wrote:
the draw from the 24V is not specified, so it is anyone's
guess as what it may need.
True enough. I was assuming it was 20-50ma, which is what the Curtis
controllers draw.
This is clearly a home-built controller... the design may not
be optimised for the total integration and some unnecessary
shortcuts were taken... One example is that the 24V input is
next to the control inputs, so it is questionable if it needs
to be isolated from the pack and goes to vehicle ground, like
the control input should be, or that it truly is a pack tap.
I would guess he did it just like Curtis does -- with a "hot" potbox (it
connects to pack voltage, not the 12v accessory or ground).
How would you remove the 24V current draw from the pack
when the car is not used?
The easiest way would be to put the main contactor in the negative lead.
That way, all it takes is a diode in series with the 24v tap to insure
that it draws no current when the main contactor is off.
That already shows that the designer did not keep the
total system in mind when designing for a low cost
controller.
On the contrary, I got the impression he *was* designing for low cost.
That's why he went with a non-isolated control section.
My controller draws 0.3A from the 12V battery.
Over 1 day that accumulates to more than 7 Ah.
That is a very serious imbalance on a 100 Ah pack,
That's quite a lot! What is all that power doing when you are parked and
the controller is not operating?
The simplest solution was to have a DC/DC converter
in the controller, like every well designed commercial
controller has.
It's an obvious solution; but I wouldn't say a DC/DC is automatically
required. As mentioned, the Curtis controllers don't have them, and they
sell more controllers than all the rest of the EV controller
manufacturers combined!
Cars are a consumer product. Other large consumer appliances typically
do NOT provide isolated control logic (stoves, refrigerators, washers,
dryers, etc.) Instead, the products are designed so the user can't touch
any of the control circuitry in normal operation.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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