EV Digest 6220
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) voltage sag AGM vs floodies
by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Etek problems
by Jeffrey Kloth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Electric 1929 Ford Model A Roadster burning rubber -YouTube-
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ADC Motor Mounting
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: voltage sag AGM vs floodies
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) article: Vectrix Electric Maxi-Scooter three-wheeler prototype
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Etek problems
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Differential CVT ideas
by Steve Lacy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Thundersky BMS?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: planning on abusing a PMG132
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Why not a bike or EV scooter for 5 miles ...
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery sizing etal from a newbie
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Been copying the mail for a year but need to post to get some knowledge.
My Cushman with (9) 8 volt Trojans drops from 75 volts to something in the 50's
on a 250 amp pull. Within a year we will have stores nearby and I won't need
the range of 30+ miles and would like something peppy. I use Hawker 680's on an
Etek powered scooter and am pleased with life and performance. Since I'll need
less that a 3 mile range, I am considering going to (7) Hawker 680's for the
Cushman. This will reduce its weight by 480 lbs and increase the pack voltage
to 84 volts. I think my charger can be adjusted up to cover this and I hope the
controller can handle it. My question is has anyone documented voltage sag of
floodies vs AGM's? Of course comments on my plan would be appreciated also.
Thanks,
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know why someone what you to use a bike if you have only 5 miles
distance, which someone said I should do. Try to ride through a foot a snow
at -30 below or with the wind blowing at 80 mph which we had yesterday. The
jet stream goes right over the top of us at 200 mph and at the mountain
passes it was over 160 mph!
I drove in the 80 mph wind and could not tell what the wind speed was in my
EV.
I haul all my house materials which I built, except for the concrete in my
EV. Haul 2400 lbs of porcelain tile, 480 each 18 foot 2 x 4's, windows,
doors, 480 sheets of plywood, and 2700 sq ft of roofing.
Try to do that on a bike. I may run my EV about ten 1/2 miles stops a day,
picking up material as I go at a average of 10 to 15 mph. My ICE which can
do over 25 mpg on the highway will be about 5 mpg with this many stops and
load, so the EV is ideal for this.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
> On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
> > Hop on a bike! If it's too steep, build an electric bike! Or Walk!
> > I'd
> > recommend a couple of rechargeable batteries for your walkman, you'll
> > save a bundle. <grin>
> >
>
> :-) But that is not what he asked for. I'm not sure why he wants a car
> to make a 2 mile commute (one way), but he does. I'll give him the
> benefit of any doubt and be confident there is a reason (like not
> getting to work wet when it rains.)
>
> A 5 mile EV is real easy. I would suggest 8 Optima YT batteries for a
> 96v system (if the EV is currently 120 volts you may need to stay there
> to keep a DC to DC converter or other equipment happy.) The used
> batteries should work, but I recommend getting quite a few more than
> you need. Used batteries can be "good", but not play along well
> together (or they can be bad.) Their charge efficiency and self
> discharge rate can drift apart depending on how they where used,
> especially if they where not all used together. It can make charging a
> real pain (Rudman Regs with external loads sized pain.)
>
> Normally with AGM batteries I would suggest regulators (not that I use
> them, but I have to monitor each charge because I don't.) With a small
> pack of Optimas and a short range you can charge gently. A taper
> charger and some Lee Hart zener/light bulb regs should handle it quite
> well. A cheap taper charger can be as simple as a bridge rectifier on a
> heat sink and a variac to adjust the input voltage (a few other parts
> to make it safer should be added.) You could also use a "little
> blinking charger" (Cliplight 5A charger) for each battery. Optimas seem
> to like that charger. Chargers for flooded batteries are generally a
> bad choice for AGMs, unless you can adjust the voltage and current.
>
> 8 Optimas should actually have a range more like 10 miles. But AGMs can
> last a long time if they are not regularly discharged below 50%. It
> seems to be a good fit - one of those cases where AGM will prove
> superior on more than just the good clean fun factor.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
> WAR IS PEACE
> FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> George Orwell, "1984"
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> WAR IS PEACE
> FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> George Orwell, "1984"
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks, I am new to the list and need some help. I have a fairly heavy
project motorcycle with 1 Etek and an Alltrax 4844m controller. The gearing is
front sprocket of 12 teeth and rear of 37. I realize the motor will need to
overcome stall with fair amount of amps. Right now it is taking off with
enough accelleration for me. The problem is that ever since I got the Alltrax,
I have had two failures of the same kind: The motor does not seem to be getting
hot but suddenly there is solder spitting and soon after the little clip/bars
fall off the armature. Then it is a bad day from there on. I have had the
motors apart and they survive the autopsy and look like they can be repaired by
soldering again. This part of the design seems like a weak link in the motor
so I am wondering if there is a way to beef this up? Also, it looks like the
factory balances the armature by GRINDING off some of the clips! I guess I may
have to change gearing and the Alltrax limits to use t!
his setup for the motrorcycle. I am thinking of using two Eteks in parallel
to ease the stress. Is this a good idea? Or maybe one etek for each "speed"
via two gearings...
Thanks,
Jeffrey Kloth, Burbank, CA=============
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another clip from my home video collection.
Danny...
Electric Street Rod "Lightning Rod II" doing a massive burnout at the
1999 NEDRA Nationals in Woodburn, Oregon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W2rrk-elrg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 16, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Jack Murray wrote:
Can an 8" ADC motor be attached to a transmission using just the 4
bolts on the face of the output side housing?
Yes. The motor has no issues hanging on by the output face.
Or does the steel body of the motor need to be connected to the
transmission to handle the torque?
Your vehicle's mounting system may need the motor mounted to handle the
torque. If the original ICE was mounted then the tranny mounts likely
cannot handle the torque reaction by themselves (unless, of course, you
make changes.)
I've seen ADC 8 and 9 inch motors and Prestolite motors mounted in
aircooled VW Beetles. This application lacks provisions for any motor
mount except for the adapter plate. It works just fine. See
<http://www.evfun.com> and check out the motor closeup shot.
Note: this is an old site that is temporarily linked to my new domain
name. The link will will work for a short while I my son and I build a
new web site. The VW Pickup referred to had been long sold (it didn't
have a motor mount except the face plate either - modified transaxle
mounts.)
Paul "neon" G.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
In general AGMs can deliver higher current and should sag less
than floodies, though it depends on the particular battery
how much they actually sag.
The reason that AGMs are popular is because they can dish out
high power (current), otherwise everyone would be using
gel batteries with higher cycle life or flooded with lower
cost, but neither of them is as good as AGM in terms of power,
in general (there are likely exceptions to the rule).
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Robert Lemke
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 2:55 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: voltage sag AGM vs floodies
Hi all,
Been copying the mail for a year but need to post to get some
knowledge. My Cushman with (9) 8 volt Trojans drops from 75 volts to
something in the 50's on a 250 amp pull. Within a year we will have stores
nearby and I won't need the range of 30+ miles and would like something
peppy. I use Hawker 680's on an Etek powered scooter and am pleased with
life and performance. Since I'll need less that a 3 mile range, I am
considering going to (7) Hawker 680's for the Cushman. This will reduce its
weight by 480 lbs and increase the pack voltage to 84 volts. I think my
charger can be adjusted up to cover this and I hope the controller can
handle it. My question is has anyone documented voltage sag of floodies vs
AGM's? Of course comments on my plan would be appreciated also.
Thanks,
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An article on the Vectrix 3-wheeler based on the Vespa MP3:
http://www.gizmag.com/go/6627/
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeffrey,
What is the top speed you are aiming for?
With your 3:1 gearing, you are likely lugging the motor,
which means that it has high current for a (too) long
time and low rpm, so even if there is a fan (I never opened
an Etek) it will not be effective in cooling the motor.
>From your description, I even think that it is not so much
a problem in overheating the motor itself, as the thing that
heats up the quickest (due to its low mass) is the brush and
the assembly around it.
I think that a typical wheel speed of a motorcycle at a freeway
is 10 to 15 rev per sec, unless you have small wheels like
a scooter.
This makes the rpm around 600 to 1000 and your motor is always
under 1800 - 3000 rpm. I think that the motor readline is
about twice that, so you can take off much faster and keep
the current down and apply it for a much shorter period when
you change your gearing to a much larger ratio, probably nearly
twice as much (12 to 72).
See the experiences of Lawrence and his Ebike, he used a
sprocket almost the size of the rear wheel if I am not mistaken.
But he was also smoking his first attempts with a much smaller
ratio.
I cannot help with the Etek as I never took one apart (yet).
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jeffrey Kloth
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Etek problems
Hi folks, I am new to the list and need some help. I have a fairly heavy
project motorcycle with 1 Etek and an Alltrax 4844m controller. The gearing
is front sprocket of 12 teeth and rear of 37. I realize the motor will need
to overcome stall with fair amount of amps. Right now it is taking off with
enough accelleration for me. The problem is that ever since I got the
Alltrax, I have had two failures of the same kind: The motor does not seem
to be getting hot but suddenly there is solder spitting and soon after the
little clip/bars fall off the armature. Then it is a bad day from there on.
I have had the motors apart and they survive the autopsy and look like they
can be repaired by soldering again. This part of the design seems like a
weak link in the motor so I am wondering if there is a way to beef this up?
Also, it looks like the factory balances the armature by GRINDING off some
of the clips! I guess I may have to change gearing and the Alltrax limits
to use t!
his setup for the motrorcycle. I am thinking of using two Eteks in
parallel to ease the stress. Is this a good idea? Or maybe one etek for
each "speed" via two gearings...
Thanks,
Jeffrey Kloth, Burbank, CA=============
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You should read about the Prius' "Power Split Device" that does
something very similar using 2 electric motors and a set of planetary
gears.
http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/prius-technical-info
(and/or google search for "Power Split Device")
Steve
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Reading about using a differential as a way to control output speed through
the use of two independant inputdrives reminded me of a machine I used to
have to repair. it was a large electronic printing machine which had a large
propshaft which ran through the back of the machine to drive each different
'print engine'.
In order to get perfect registration all printing stations need to run at
exactly the same speed, the way the speed was controlled at each of the print
engines was through a differential tied into a stepper motor.
Stepper motors have very high 'holding torque' values and they were mounted
on one 'side' of the differential, while the main drive form a 10HP motor came
into the other 'side'. The perpendicular output shaft, which equates to the
input propshaft of a car's dif, fed the print engine at 90 degrees.
The way the speed was controlled was to allow the stepper to 'slip' in a
controlled manner. when the stepper was held stationary the output speed was
equal to the main drive motor's input speed (divided by the diff ratio) and to
slow down the output shaft to the engine the stepper was back-slipped
......this meant that one drive motor could drive several print engines at a constant
speed, but each engine could control it's own speed, and therefore 'gearing'
by slipping the stepper motor.
As far as I am aware the stepper was never strong enough to provide positive
drive and only ever operated as a slipping brake. Later on the steppers were
replaced with DC servo motors which didn't make an awful lot of
differnece....I believe they were added because they could at some point in the future
help to increase the speed of the machine but the machine was a prototype and
was decommisioned before we ever got the chance to speed things up.
Instead of steppers there are many purpose built slipping clutches and
slipping brake systems which could be incorporated, but the maximum speed is
always limited by the input. Instead of clean-braking, regeneration could produce
a similar controlled slipping.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David wrote:
> Paul Compton posted a link to Cedric Lynch's enterprise, Agnimotor. This
> may be old news, and if so I apologise; but I was nosing around that
> website
> and ran across this page :
>
> http://agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemi
> d=39
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yyw3n8
Hmm .. looks easy enough. Now - you could also tie the anode of a flux
capacitor (http://tinyurl.com/arsqx) to the cell. But in order to do that,
you would have to carefully open the casing, unsolder the epio-array and
bend the middle leg upwards so that it touches the ion-emitter of the
plasma-distributor. This will of course void any warranty. But caution,
never exceed the recommended soldering temperature of exactly 230.5 degree
C (you might want to get a really good temperature gauge) as the hydrogen
fission generator device is very sensitive to heat. After you have
successfully completed this step (and if you are still in the current time
line), you will have to adjust the flux generator to about 1 second before
you disconnected your batteries from the charger. Now - if batteries reach
a certain discharge threshold, the flux capacitor will simply transfer
your battery back in time to the moment they were fully charged.
Hmm ...
Michaela ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland,
You are correct - there is a tool for every job.
It is essential to find the right tool or you will
not be happy with the job ;-)
I just wanted to shed a different light on the problem,
which is: how can I get from here to a place about a
50 min walk away?
Most Americans only think of this question as:
how to go to a place a 10 min drive away?
I am happy to experience this same issue as to go to
a place a 20 min bicycle ride away.
I know - this is California and that makes a lot of
difference.
But it still is a good idea to see which alternatives
there are that you may like and what their cost and
benefits are.
On a bicycle, you experience more of the nature around you.
That can be a good thing or really bad.
I have ridden in 4" snow when I lived in The Netherlands
(most Californians never see snow) but I cannot say I
liked it very much, but the closeness to nature and the
avoidance of all costs associated with the car made it
very worthwhile.
There are also hidden savings.
I am not going to a gym, so I have no membership fees or
time that I must allocate to that, because I get enough
workout already and doing that on a bicycle is free.
In your environment, travelling by bicycle can be very
hazardous, so the choice of "tool" to travel is different.
Hauling some supplies is easy on a bike with panniers or
even a trailer. That does not hold 2700 sq ft of roofing,
but I have transported numerous big screen TVs for miles
when I was fixing them to earn money as a student.
They all went on the rack at the back of my bike.
I still go to the produce shop by bicycle.
To keep it on-topic: it is an electric assist bike ;-)
My comment was intended to make a good decision possible
instead of being focussed on the result (electric car)
and only after spending thousands of dollars finding that
although it is a solution, the problem can more elegantly
be solved with a $300 electric bicycle.
As always, YMMV.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
I don't know why someone what you to use a bike if you have only 5 miles
distance, which someone said I should do. Try to ride through a foot a snow
at -30 below or with the wind blowing at 80 mph which we had yesterday. The
jet stream goes right over the top of us at 200 mph and at the mountain
passes it was over 160 mph!
I drove in the 80 mph wind and could not tell what the wind speed was in my
EV.
I haul all my house materials which I built, except for the concrete in my
EV. Haul 2400 lbs of porcelain tile, 480 each 18 foot 2 x 4's, windows,
doors, 480 sheets of plywood, and 2700 sq ft of roofing.
Try to do that on a bike. I may run my EV about ten 1/2 miles stops a day,
picking up material as I go at a average of 10 to 15 mph. My ICE which can
do over 25 mpg on the highway will be about 5 mpg with this many stops and
load, so the EV is ideal for this.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
> On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
> > Hop on a bike! If it's too steep, build an electric bike! Or Walk!
> > I'd
> > recommend a couple of rechargeable batteries for your walkman, you'll
> > save a bundle. <grin>
> >
>
> :-) But that is not what he asked for. I'm not sure why he wants a car
> to make a 2 mile commute (one way), but he does. I'll give him the
> benefit of any doubt and be confident there is a reason (like not
> getting to work wet when it rains.)
>
> A 5 mile EV is real easy. I would suggest 8 Optima YT batteries for a
> 96v system (if the EV is currently 120 volts you may need to stay there
> to keep a DC to DC converter or other equipment happy.) The used
> batteries should work, but I recommend getting quite a few more than
> you need. Used batteries can be "good", but not play along well
> together (or they can be bad.) Their charge efficiency and self
> discharge rate can drift apart depending on how they where used,
> especially if they where not all used together. It can make charging a
> real pain (Rudman Regs with external loads sized pain.)
>
> Normally with AGM batteries I would suggest regulators (not that I use
> them, but I have to monitor each charge because I don't.) With a small
> pack of Optimas and a short range you can charge gently. A taper
> charger and some Lee Hart zener/light bulb regs should handle it quite
> well. A cheap taper charger can be as simple as a bridge rectifier on a
> heat sink and a variac to adjust the input voltage (a few other parts
> to make it safer should be added.) You could also use a "little
> blinking charger" (Cliplight 5A charger) for each battery. Optimas seem
> to like that charger. Chargers for flooded batteries are generally a
> bad choice for AGMs, unless you can adjust the voltage and current.
>
> 8 Optimas should actually have a range more like 10 miles. But AGMs can
> last a long time if they are not regularly discharged below 50%. It
> seems to be a good fit - one of those cases where AGM will prove
> superior on more than just the good clean fun factor.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
> WAR IS PEACE
> FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> George Orwell, "1984"
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> WAR IS PEACE
> FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> George Orwell, "1984"
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Cor,
The bike I have is a single speed comfort bike with road type smooth tires
white wall classic tires that I do ride to a café which is about a 1 mile
run, when its not windy, raining, snowing, icy, snow pack and driven mainly
on the flat which in this country, is about once a week for about two months
out of the year.
The bike is like brand new, still have the box to store it it.
To ride it any further, than the grades get steeper. Been thinking to do
something like this:
http://www.pelzer.net/ebike/
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 5:23 PM
Subject: RE: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
> Hi Roland,
>
> You are correct - there is a tool for every job.
> It is essential to find the right tool or you will
> not be happy with the job ;-)
> I just wanted to shed a different light on the problem,
> which is: how can I get from here to a place about a
> 50 min walk away?
> Most Americans only think of this question as:
> how to go to a place a 10 min drive away?
> I am happy to experience this same issue as to go to
> a place a 20 min bicycle ride away.
> I know - this is California and that makes a lot of
> difference.
> But it still is a good idea to see which alternatives
> there are that you may like and what their cost and
> benefits are.
>
> On a bicycle, you experience more of the nature around you.
> That can be a good thing or really bad.
> I have ridden in 4" snow when I lived in The Netherlands
> (most Californians never see snow) but I cannot say I
> liked it very much, but the closeness to nature and the
> avoidance of all costs associated with the car made it
> very worthwhile.
> There are also hidden savings.
> I am not going to a gym, so I have no membership fees or
> time that I must allocate to that, because I get enough
> workout already and doing that on a bicycle is free.
>
> In your environment, travelling by bicycle can be very
> hazardous, so the choice of "tool" to travel is different.
> Hauling some supplies is easy on a bike with panniers or
> even a trailer. That does not hold 2700 sq ft of roofing,
> but I have transported numerous big screen TVs for miles
> when I was fixing them to earn money as a student.
> They all went on the rack at the back of my bike.
>
> I still go to the produce shop by bicycle.
> To keep it on-topic: it is an electric assist bike ;-)
>
> My comment was intended to make a good decision possible
> instead of being focussed on the result (electric car)
> and only after spending thousands of dollars finding that
> although it is a solution, the problem can more elegantly
> be solved with a $300 electric bicycle.
>
> As always, YMMV.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:09 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
>
>
> I don't know why someone what you to use a bike if you have only 5 miles
> distance, which someone said I should do. Try to ride through a foot a
> snow
>
> at -30 below or with the wind blowing at 80 mph which we had yesterday.
> The
>
> jet stream goes right over the top of us at 200 mph and at the mountain
> passes it was over 160 mph!
>
> I drove in the 80 mph wind and could not tell what the wind speed was in
> my
> EV.
>
> I haul all my house materials which I built, except for the concrete in my
> EV. Haul 2400 lbs of porcelain tile, 480 each 18 foot 2 x 4's, windows,
> doors, 480 sheets of plywood, and 2700 sq ft of roofing.
>
> Try to do that on a bike. I may run my EV about ten 1/2 miles stops a
> day,
> picking up material as I go at a average of 10 to 15 mph. My ICE which
> can
> do over 25 mpg on the highway will be about 5 mpg with this many stops and
> load, so the EV is ideal for this.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
>
>
> > On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Lawrence Lile wrote:
> >
> > > Hop on a bike! If it's too steep, build an electric bike! Or Walk!
> > > I'd
> > > recommend a couple of rechargeable batteries for your walkman, you'll
> > > save a bundle. <grin>
> > >
> >
> > :-) But that is not what he asked for. I'm not sure why he wants a car
> > to make a 2 mile commute (one way), but he does. I'll give him the
> > benefit of any doubt and be confident there is a reason (like not
> > getting to work wet when it rains.)
> >
> > A 5 mile EV is real easy. I would suggest 8 Optima YT batteries for a
> > 96v system (if the EV is currently 120 volts you may need to stay there
> > to keep a DC to DC converter or other equipment happy.) The used
> > batteries should work, but I recommend getting quite a few more than
> > you need. Used batteries can be "good", but not play along well
> > together (or they can be bad.) Their charge efficiency and self
> > discharge rate can drift apart depending on how they where used,
> > especially if they where not all used together. It can make charging a
> > real pain (Rudman Regs with external loads sized pain.)
> >
> > Normally with AGM batteries I would suggest regulators (not that I use
> > them, but I have to monitor each charge because I don't.) With a small
> > pack of Optimas and a short range you can charge gently. A taper
> > charger and some Lee Hart zener/light bulb regs should handle it quite
> > well. A cheap taper charger can be as simple as a bridge rectifier on a
> > heat sink and a variac to adjust the input voltage (a few other parts
> > to make it safer should be added.) You could also use a "little
> > blinking charger" (Cliplight 5A charger) for each battery. Optimas seem
> > to like that charger. Chargers for flooded batteries are generally a
> > bad choice for AGMs, unless you can adjust the voltage and current.
> >
> > 8 Optimas should actually have a range more like 10 miles. But AGMs can
> > last a long time if they are not regularly discharged below 50%. It
> > seems to be a good fit - one of those cases where AGM will prove
> > superior on more than just the good clean fun factor.
> >
> > Paul "neon" G.
> >
> > WAR IS PEACE
> > FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> > IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> > George Orwell, "1984"
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > WAR IS PEACE
> > FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> > IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> > George Orwell, "1984"
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I completly misread these speed torque curves and
Myles is correct. The efficiency in the normal
operating range really is not that bad. I was thrown
off by the complete range they show and swapped one of
the Y axis numbers. If they want to convey useful
information to the customer it should only show a
range of operation like the Thunderstruck site. Why
would you show a speed torque curve going out to
locked rotor current at 1400Amps?
Anyhow, this motor would probably do fine on the
go-cart with an appropriate controller. An Alltrax
48V 300-400Amp control would do just fine.
Rod
--- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Paul Compton offered:
>
> > >I just checked out the speed torque curves at
> > >
> http://www.robotmarketplace.com/images/pmg_132_e.pdf
> > > Very strange indeed!
> >
> > Yes, so strange that they can't possibly be right.
> The PMG 132
> > performance is between the Etek and an original
> Lemco or the Agni Motor
> > (http://www.agnimotors.com/home/) that Cedric
> himself is producing.
> > The curves for the motor at;
> > http://www.thunderstruck-ev.com/perm_specs.htm
> > are much more what I'd expect.
>
> Wrong. BOTH are correct!
> BOTH chart pages show voltage, torque, power and
> efficiency versus current.
> Once again, the difference is that the curves on the
> pmg_132_3.pdf file page
> show these characteristics from ZERO to the 1400+amp
> theoretical SHORT
> CIRCUIT CURRENT (Isc), while the curves on the
> Thunderstruck site show only
> for current from 0 to 200amps.
>
> Clearly, if you extrapolated the Thunderstruck
> curves out 7-times further to
> 700amps, you'd see the efficiency drop to 50% and at
> 1400amps, go to zero
> also.
>
> I appreciate seeing the full range, though except
> for the easy computation
> of internal resistance from Isc and Voc, 80% of the
> curves aren't any use.
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got a $300 electric scooter - 36 V, 500 A. I've also got a custom made
electric bike with a very large rated 1 HP (could probably go 2.5 times that).
I even have a 22 cc echo industrial gas powered drill with 2 speed transmission
that I planned to hook to an alternator to increase the range of my custom
e-bike ... a true tri-brid vehicle. I actually was going to make it a trike.
But, they won't do.
I used to ride the scooter, but the terrain is too rough for the small tires.
The bike looks too much like high school science project - a little too
unprofessional for the corporate world. Not to mention it is now in pieces and
I haven't used it in years. I have walking paths all the way there, but
motorized bicycles and scooters are illegal on them. They are only legal on
the street. Now, try driving one of those at 20 MPH when the posted limit is
40 MPH - in rush hour traffic. Then, try to make a left turn in traffic. Not
to mention, it is very dark in the early morning, and I don't want to become
road kill. My low end EV is only $3000, and although that is 10x the price of
a scooter, at least I arrive safe and dry.
It's now time for new batteries. I want to lighten the car to increase
performance - get (some of) the lead out. The other alternative is to change
the controller, charger, and batteries and go for a 156 V / 1kA system driving
that 9" motor in my little 2400 lb (as converted) car. Now, that thing would
fly. The only thing standing in my way is the $$$. So, make it lighter I will
- or maybe not. Maybe I'll take it down to 72 V and switch to a 36 / 72
contactor controller to cover the amperage requirement. That would be ultra
cheap and no issue for the 9" motor. I'm sure it can take it. Or, just go
with 72 V and the existing Curtis, but that thing is going to be sssllllooowww
... very cheap though.
The final option is just stick with the current 13 x 8 V / 400 A controller
and live with the ssslllooowww acceleration. I just hate to spend nearly $1000
on a set of batts and end up with a snail car, especially when I never take it
over 5 miles.
Well, that's my reasoning for what its worth.
Steve
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Roland,
You are correct - there is a tool for every job.
It is essential to find the right tool or you will
not be happy with the job ;-)
I just wanted to shed a different light on the problem,
which is: how can I get from here to a place about a
50 min walk away?
Most Americans only think of this question as:
how to go to a place a 10 min drive away?
I am happy to experience this same issue as to go to
a place a 20 min bicycle ride away.
I know - this is California and that makes a lot of
difference.
But it still is a good idea to see which alternatives
there are that you may like and what their cost and
benefits are.
On a bicycle, you experience more of the nature around you.
That can be a good thing or really bad.
I have ridden in 4" snow when I lived in The Netherlands
(most Californians never see snow) but I cannot say I
liked it very much, but the closeness to nature and the
avoidance of all costs associated with the car made it
very worthwhile.
There are also hidden savings.
I am not going to a gym, so I have no membership fees or
time that I must allocate to that, because I get enough
workout already and doing that on a bicycle is free.
In your environment, travelling by bicycle can be very
hazardous, so the choice of "tool" to travel is different.
Hauling some supplies is easy on a bike with panniers or
even a trailer. That does not hold 2700 sq ft of roofing,
but I have transported numerous big screen TVs for miles
when I was fixing them to earn money as a student.
They all went on the rack at the back of my bike.
I still go to the produce shop by bicycle.
To keep it on-topic: it is an electric assist bike ;-)
My comment was intended to make a good decision possible
instead of being focussed on the result (electric car)
and only after spending thousands of dollars finding that
although it is a solution, the problem can more elegantly
be solved with a $300 electric bicycle.
As always, YMMV.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
I don't know why someone what you to use a bike if you have only 5 miles
distance, which someone said I should do. Try to ride through a foot a snow
at -30 below or with the wind blowing at 80 mph which we had yesterday. The
jet stream goes right over the top of us at 200 mph and at the mountain
passes it was over 160 mph!
I drove in the 80 mph wind and could not tell what the wind speed was in my
EV.
I haul all my house materials which I built, except for the concrete in my
EV. Haul 2400 lbs of porcelain tile, 480 each 18 foot 2 x 4's, windows,
doors, 480 sheets of plywood, and 2700 sq ft of roofing.
Try to do that on a bike. I may run my EV about ten 1/2 miles stops a day,
picking up material as I go at a average of 10 to 15 mph. My ICE which can
do over 25 mpg on the highway will be about 5 mpg with this many stops and
load, so the EV is ideal for this.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G."
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
> On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
> > Hop on a bike! If it's too steep, build an electric bike! Or Walk!
> > I'd
> > recommend a couple of rechargeable batteries for your walkman, you'll
> > save a bundle.
> >
>
> :-) But that is not what he asked for. I'm not sure why he wants a car
> to make a 2 mile commute (one way), but he does. I'll give him the
> benefit of any doubt and be confident there is a reason (like not
> getting to work wet when it rains.)
>
> A 5 mile EV is real easy. I would suggest 8 Optima YT batteries for a
> 96v system (if the EV is currently 120 volts you may need to stay there
> to keep a DC to DC converter or other equipment happy.) The used
> batteries should work, but I recommend getting quite a few more than
> you need. Used batteries can be "good", but not play along well
> together (or they can be bad.) Their charge efficiency and self
> discharge rate can drift apart depending on how they where used,
> especially if they where not all used together. It can make charging a
> real pain (Rudman Regs with external loads sized pain.)
>
> Normally with AGM batteries I would suggest regulators (not that I use
> them, but I have to monitor each charge because I don't.) With a small
> pack of Optimas and a short range you can charge gently. A taper
> charger and some Lee Hart zener/light bulb regs should handle it quite
> well. A cheap taper charger can be as simple as a bridge rectifier on a
> heat sink and a variac to adjust the input voltage (a few other parts
> to make it safer should be added.) You could also use a "little
> blinking charger" (Cliplight 5A charger) for each battery. Optimas seem
> to like that charger. Chargers for flooded batteries are generally a
> bad choice for AGMs, unless you can adjust the voltage and current.
>
> 8 Optimas should actually have a range more like 10 miles. But AGMs can
> last a long time if they are not regularly discharged below 50%. It
> seems to be a good fit - one of those cases where AGM will prove
> superior on more than just the good clean fun factor.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
> WAR IS PEACE
> FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> George Orwell, "1984"
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> WAR IS PEACE
> FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> George Orwell, "1984"
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Escarcega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I'm hell bent on converting a 3 wheel scooter from ICE to electric. Curb
> weight 1100lbs.
> My commute is about 6 miles round trip, all flat driving. I should be able
> to recharge at work during the day.
> (11 hour day) Would love to get 15 miles out of it.
>
> Would like to see 35-40mph out of it.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated or links to helpful sites.
>
> Thanks again!
> Marty
...as a thought...
You might consider the specs of the Xebra as a starting point. That's the
sort of performance they deliver. Since their rig is priced at $10K, I'm
assuming the components to convert your rig would be half that. The
difference is they use direct drive (no tranny). While they claim > 40MPH,
it seems to be closer to 35, and they get a reliable range of about 15
miles, even for those with some hills. All drive/power components are US
available and they use 6 large (group 31?) batts for 72V.
If you get more range, all to the better.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some reasons Marty Escarcega may desire to convert.
He lives in Arizona!
Summertime temps can run up to 120 degrees in the
shade!
The Dust storms came act like Tornadoes and rip out
telephone poles!
The Flash flood rains can drown a car sitting in stop
and go traffic!
We got a lots of old retired folks (80-90s) (no
offense to anyone) that use the edge of the side walk
as a bumper bar to stay lined up with the road. And
his location is surround by these types of
neighborhoods. So riding a bike is hazardous to your
health. Electric assisted bikes will get you a ticket
if ridden in a bike lane or sidewalk. Not strictly
enforced but.
Lets help him create his electric conversion to go the
distance he requested and not harp on alternatives of
different vehicles for a 5 mile trip. He has a 3 wheel
utility vehicle to convert. And he is raring to go.
That should be enough to get answers.
I have a 9 mile round trip so this topic is rubbing me
the wrong way. Marty has the vehicle- help him- not
try to change his mind of what to use. The Golf cart
transaxle sound to be a sound idea for example.
Thanks
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Roland,
>
> You are correct - there is a tool for every job.
> It is essential to find the right tool or you will
> not be happy with the job ;-)
> I just wanted to shed a different light on the
> problem,
> which is: how can I get from here to a place about a
>
> 50 min walk away?
> Most Americans only think of this question as:
> how to go to a place a 10 min drive away?
> I am happy to experience this same issue as to go to
> a place a 20 min bicycle ride away.
> I know - this is California and that makes a lot of
> difference.
> But it still is a good idea to see which
> alternatives
> there are that you may like and what their cost and
> benefits are.
>
> On a bicycle, you experience more of the nature
> around you.
> That can be a good thing or really bad.
> I have ridden in 4" snow when I lived in The
> Netherlands
> (most Californians never see snow) but I cannot say
> I
> liked it very much, but the closeness to nature and
> the
> avoidance of all costs associated with the car made
> it
> very worthwhile.
> There are also hidden savings.
> I am not going to a gym, so I have no membership
> fees or
> time that I must allocate to that, because I get
> enough
> workout already and doing that on a bicycle is free.
>
> In your environment, travelling by bicycle can be
> very
> hazardous, so the choice of "tool" to travel is
> different.
> Hauling some supplies is easy on a bike with
> panniers or
> even a trailer. That does not hold 2700 sq ft of
> roofing,
> but I have transported numerous big screen TVs for
> miles
> when I was fixing them to earn money as a student.
> They all went on the rack at the back of my bike.
>
> I still go to the produce shop by bicycle.
> To keep it on-topic: it is an electric assist bike
> ;-)
>
> My comment was intended to make a good decision
> possible
> instead of being focussed on the result (electric
> car)
> and only after spending thousands of dollars finding
> that
> although it is a solution, the problem can more
> elegantly
> be solved with a $300 electric bicycle.
>
> As always, YMMV.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:09 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile
> range ... really
>
>
> I don't know why someone what you to use a bike if
> you have only 5 miles
> distance, which someone said I should do. Try to
> ride through a foot a snow
>
> at -30 below or with the wind blowing at 80 mph
> which we had yesterday. The
>
> jet stream goes right over the top of us at 200 mph
> and at the mountain
> passes it was over 160 mph!
>
> I drove in the 80 mph wind and could not tell what
> the wind speed was in my
> EV.
>
> I haul all my house materials which I built, except
> for the concrete in my
> EV. Haul 2400 lbs of porcelain tile, 480 each 18
> foot 2 x 4's, windows,
> doors, 480 sheets of plywood, and 2700 sq ft of
> roofing.
>
> Try to do that on a bike. I may run my EV about ten
> 1/2 miles stops a day,
> picking up material as I go at a average of 10 to 15
> mph. My ICE which can
> do over 25 mpg on the highway will be about 5 mpg
> with this many stops and
> load, so the EV is ideal for this.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:30 PM
> Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile
> range ... really
>
>
> > On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Lawrence Lile wrote:
> >
> > > Hop on a bike! If it's too steep, build an
> electric bike! Or Walk!
> > > I'd
> > > recommend a couple of rechargeable batteries for
> your walkman, you'll
> > > save a bundle. <grin>
> > >
> >
> > :-) But that is not what he asked for. I'm not
> sure why he wants a car
> > to make a 2 mile commute (one way), but he does.
> I'll give him the
> > benefit of any doubt and be confident there is a
> reason (like not
> > getting to work wet when it rains.)
> >
> > A 5 mile EV is real easy. I would suggest 8 Optima
> YT batteries for a
> > 96v system (if the EV is currently 120 volts you
> may need to stay there
> > to keep a DC to DC converter or other equipment
> happy.) The used
> > batteries should work, but I recommend getting
> quite a few more than
> > you need. Used batteries can be "good", but not
> play along well
> > together (or they can be bad.) Their charge
> efficiency and self
> > discharge rate can drift apart depending on how
> they where used,
> > especially if they where not all used together. It
> can make charging a
> > real pain (Rudman Regs with external loads sized
> pain.)
> >
> > Normally with AGM batteries I would suggest
> regulators (not that I use
> > them, but I have to monitor each charge because I
> don't.) With a small
> > pack of Optimas and a short range you can charge
> gently. A taper
> > charger and some Lee Hart zener/light bulb regs
> should handle it quite
> > well. A cheap taper charger can be as simple as a
> bridge rectifier on a
> > heat sink and a variac to adjust the input voltage
> (a few other parts
> > to make it safer should be added.) You could also
> use a "little
> > blinking charger" (Cliplight 5A charger) for each
> battery. Optimas seem
> > to like that charger. Chargers for flooded
> batteries are generally a
> > bad choice for AGMs, unless you can adjust the
> voltage and current.
> >
> > 8 Optimas should actually have a range more like
> 10 miles. But AGMs can
> > last a long time if they are not regularly
> discharged below 50%. It
> > seems to be a good fit - one of those cases where
> AGM will prove
> > superior on more than just the good clean fun
> factor.
> >
>
=== message truncated ===
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