EV Digest 6221
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Fallout from producing advanced batteries???
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Elec-Trak mowers
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Etek problems
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
by "Marty Escarcega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Battery sizing etal from a newbie
by "Marty Escarcega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: planning on abusing a PMG132
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Fallout from producing advanced batteries???
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: ADC Motor Mounting
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Fallout from producing advanced batteries???
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) What does it take to upgrade a Curtis controller?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Rolands Ebike
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Why not a bike or EV scooter for 5 miles ...
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Thundersky BMS?
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: ADC Motor Mounting
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 3 Wheelers stability issues
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
While reading the article on e-cars in London (posted here) I came across a
couple other interesting articles. This one may be a downside to "clean"
cars.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The impact of eco-car batteries
Martin Delgado, Mail on Sunday
20 November 2006
THE PRICE OF A PRIUS?: New claims suggest the production of nickel in
eco-batteries is harmful to the environment
However, the green credentials of the Toyota Prius are seriously undermined
by the disclosure that one of the car's essential components is produced at
a factory that has created devastation likened to the arid environment of
the moon.
So many plants and trees around the factory at Sudbury in Ontario, Canada,
have died that astronauts from Nasa practised driving moon buggies on the
outskirts of the city because it was considered the closest thing on earth
to the rocky lunar landscape.
Unlike normal cars, hybrids such as the Prius, whose proud owners include
Gwyneth Paltrow, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts and ex-Tory leader Michael Howard,
are powered by a battery that contains nickel - as well as a traditional
petrol engine.
Toyota gets the metal from a Canadian company whose smelting facility at
Sudbury has spewed sulphur dioxide into the air for more than a century.
The car giant buys about 1,000 tons a year from the plant, which is owned by
Inco, one of the world's largest nickel-mining companies.
Fumes emerging from the factory are so poisonous that they have destroyed
vegetation in the surrounding countryside, turning the once-beautiful
landscape into the bare, rocky terrain astronauts might expect to find in
outer space.
Although efforts have been made in recent years to reduce emissions from the
plant's 1,250ft chimney - dubbed the Superstack -campaigners say the factory
is still responsible for some of the worst pollution in North America.
David Martin, energy co-ordinator of Greenpeace Canada, said: 'The acid rain
around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down
off the hillside.
'The solution they came up with was the Superstack. The idea was to dilute
the pollution, but all it did was spread the fallout right across northern
Ontario. Things improved in the Nineties but the plant is still responsible
for large-scale emissions of sulphur dioxide.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/consumer/caring/article.html?in_article_id=414825&in_page_id=511
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch!!
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: Elec-Trak mowers
> At 10:46 PM 12/15/2006, Joe Smalley wrote:
> >What happened to the electric Craftsman?
>
> It was in my shop when the shop burned.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor is right on. Your gear ratio is way too tall. Your controller is forced
into continuous current limit of 400 amps. Please look at the specs for this
motor. You are exceeding the heck out of them and causing heat which is
melting the solder. Cor's advice of a 6 to 1 ratio makes great sense for a
starting point.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
---- Original Message -----
From: "Jeffrey Kloth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:21 PM
Subject: Etek problems
Hi folks, I am new to the list and need some help. I have a fairly heavy
project motorcycle with 1 Etek and an Alltrax 4844m controller. The
gearing is front sprocket of 12 teeth and rear of 37. I realize the motor
will need to overcome stall with fair amount of amps. Right now it is
taking off with enough accelleration for me. The problem is that ever
since I got the Alltrax, I have had two failures of the same kind: The
motor does not seem to be getting hot but suddenly there is solder
spitting and soon after the little clip/bars fall off the armature. Then
it is a bad day from there on. I have had the motors apart and they
survive the autopsy and look like they can be repaired by soldering again.
This part of the design seems like a weak link in the motor so I am
wondering if there is a way to beef this up? Also, it looks like the
factory balances the armature by GRINDING off some of the clips! I guess
I may have to change gearing and the Alltrax limits to use t!
his setup for the motrorcycle. I am thinking of using two Eteks in
parallel to ease the stress. Is this a good idea? Or maybe one etek for
each "speed" via two gearings...
Thanks,
Jeffrey Kloth, Burbank, CA=============
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Bruce, though I'm not sure that the thread was started by me, but I
am in a similar situation, short commute and I've already been questioned as
to why this vehicle. I want to do it first of all because I was intrigued by
the vehicle a 3 wheeled Westcoaster Mailster. I originally thought to just
redo the ICE. BUT then quickly remembered how enamoured I'd been for many
years with electric vehicles. Thirdly, I love to fabricate, I have a Lathe,
Mill, Mig etc here in my home shop. I can and have done bodywork. You want
to see what I am capable of?
http://members.cox.net/escarcega-photos/minichopper/minichopper.html
http://members.cox.net/val-escarcega/Jeep/jeep.html
I have since moved and downsized, but this WAS my shop:
http://members.cox.net/escarcega/metal/shop/metalshop.html
Bottom line, I love to work with my hands and felt this would be a great
project. I have to be a tiny bit patient because I have a couple projects to
finish up. When I do get going, I like to pay attention to the details. No
worries, no one is rubbing me the wrong way. But I have been sifting through
the ev list archives and reading up a bunch. Roderick Wilde has also given
me some information and links to even more reading material.
And will continue to do so and educate myself some more....
Thanks
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Weisenberger [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 6:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
Some reasons Marty Escarcega may desire to convert.
He lives in Arizona!
Summertime temps can run up to 120 degrees in the shade!
The Dust storms came act like Tornadoes and rip out telephone poles!
The Flash flood rains can drown a car sitting in stop and go traffic!
We got a lots of old retired folks (80-90s) (no offense to anyone) that use
the edge of the side walk as a bumper bar to stay lined up with the road.
And his location is surround by these types of neighborhoods. So riding a
bike is hazardous to your health. Electric assisted bikes will get you a
ticket if ridden in a bike lane or sidewalk. Not strictly
enforced but.
Lets help him create his electric conversion to go the distance he requested
and not harp on alternatives of different vehicles for a 5 mile trip. He has
a 3 wheel utility vehicle to convert. And he is raring to go.
That should be enough to get answers.
I have a 9 mile round trip so this topic is rubbing me the wrong way. Marty
has the vehicle- help him- not try to change his mind of what to use. The
Golf cart transaxle sound to be a sound idea for example.
Thanks
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks I will do a search on the Xebra and look into it!
Marty
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Perry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 6:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery sizing etal from a newbie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Escarcega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> I'm hell bent on converting a 3 wheel scooter from ICE to electric.
> Curb weight 1100lbs.
> My commute is about 6 miles round trip, all flat driving. I should be
> able to recharge at work during the day.
> (11 hour day) Would love to get 15 miles out of it.
>
> Would like to see 35-40mph out of it.
>
> Any help would be greatly appreciated or links to helpful sites.
>
> Thanks again!
> Marty
...as a thought...
You might consider the specs of the Xebra as a starting point. That's the
sort of performance they deliver. Since their rig is priced at $10K, I'm
assuming the components to convert your rig would be half that. The
difference is they use direct drive (no tranny). While they claim > 40MPH,
it seems to be closer to 35, and they get a reliable range of about 15
miles, even for those with some hills. All drive/power components are US
available and they use 6 large (group 31?) batts for 72V.
If you get more range, all to the better.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Wrong. BOTH are correct!
> > BOTH chart pages show voltage, torque, power and efficiency versus
> > current.
>
> No, the robot-market place site plots efficiency, torque, and current
> against rpm.
>
> Paul Compton
Sure...it's plotted against RPM, but those are constant voltage plots, so
plotting agains RPM is the same as plotting against current...hence why the
current curve is linear with RPM.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Dec 2006 at 17:54, Michael Perry wrote:
> New claims suggest the production of nickel in
> eco-batteries is harmful to the environment
The piece appears to be from the Mail. Publishers sell newspapers and
magazines with sensational headlines, and this kind of nya-nya "journalism"
is a favorite for that purpose.
I don't want to slight the significance of this issue. But let's face it,
all manufacturing has environmental consequences. But this article doesn't
acknowledge that fact.
Nothing is said about how much total pollution the purchase of one Prius
generates, or for that matter (if you could still buy one) one RAV4-EV or
NiMH EV-1. Nothing is said about the overall environmental impact of the
manufacturing vs. the vehicle's lifetime environmental benefit. Nothing is
said about the relative impact of manufacturing any other vehicle. Nothing
is said about the relative contributions of other nickel consumers. Nothing
is said about how much of that nickel goes into Prius cars vs. the amount
that goes into nicad and NiMH cells in the millions of rechargeable
household gadgets sold each year.
All that's said in this piece is, "Look! Look! All these guys who think
they're being good are really being BAD! See, that just goes to show you,
you shouldn't think too much about these things.
"All you have to do is FEEL. And we''re telling you that you can FEEL GREAT
when you go out and buy some big, expensive ICE vehicle that's advertised in
our paper, because it might have a little less nickel in it than that bad
ol' Prius, or some dinky little electric car.
"Uh, no, we haven't actually checked on whether it really does, but we think
it probably does. No, we haven't really looked into what kind of emissions
result from building other vehicles, but they must be lower, right? Anyway,
don't you worry, just feel good."
I think the issue should be explored - but in a rational, thoughtful way,
not with this kind of sensationalized, emotionally charged treatment.
Regrettably, these sorts of pieces tend to be shouted so loudly that they
usually drown out the responsible investigators.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 16, 2006, at 1:50 PM, Jack Murray wrote:
Can an 8" ADC motor be attached to a transmission using just the 4
bolts on the face of the output side housing?
The adapter from Electro Automotive uses the C-face on the front (drive
end) of the ADC motors as well as the bolt holes. The C-face is a
slightly tapered raised edge that fits into a precisely-machined hole
in the adapter. Tighten up the four bolts, and it pulls the C-face
into the adapter, wedging the drive end of the motor firmly in place.
I have a scan of the outline drawing for the 8" ADC, part number
203-06-4001. It shows the C-face. (I think the "C" stands for
"chamfered".) I just figured out how to post it on my (new, under
construction) website.
It's here: <http://www.gdunge.com/?attachment_id=29>
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, what you are saying is -
that if oil were to be produced by polluting factories
and caused damage to the environment for example by
drilling in Alaska, then we should better stop buying oil?
Oh, wait...
Serious:
Stainless steel is made by adding chromium and nickel to
steel (iron + carbon)
Nickel is used in most coinage around the world,
Nickel is used in glass to give green color,
There are many uses of nickel that have nothing to do with
ECO-batteries (NiMH), while the batteries constitute only
a tiny fraction (a few percent) of annual nickel consuption.
The vast majority of these batteries are for cell phones,
video cameras and the like - Hybrid Vehices and EVs are such a
tiny market that they are not even mentioned in the overview:
http://www.mii.org/Minerals/photonickl.html
Clearly, this is an out-of-proportion smear campaign by some
interested party to try and stick some mud on the clean image
of Hybrid cars. Let me guess.....
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Michael Perry
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 5:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Fallout from producing advanced batteries???
While reading the article on e-cars in London (posted here) I came across a
couple other interesting articles. This one may be a downside to "clean"
cars.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The impact of eco-car batteries
Martin Delgado, Mail on Sunday
20 November 2006
THE PRICE OF A PRIUS?: New claims suggest the production of nickel in
eco-batteries is harmful to the environment
However, the green credentials of the Toyota Prius are seriously undermined
by the disclosure that one of the car's essential components is produced at
a factory that has created devastation likened to the arid environment of
the moon.
So many plants and trees around the factory at Sudbury in Ontario, Canada,
have died that astronauts from Nasa practised driving moon buggies on the
outskirts of the city because it was considered the closest thing on earth
to the rocky lunar landscape.
Unlike normal cars, hybrids such as the Prius, whose proud owners include
Gwyneth Paltrow, Brad Pitt, Julia Roberts and ex-Tory leader Michael Howard,
are powered by a battery that contains nickel - as well as a traditional
petrol engine.
Toyota gets the metal from a Canadian company whose smelting facility at
Sudbury has spewed sulphur dioxide into the air for more than a century.
The car giant buys about 1,000 tons a year from the plant, which is owned by
Inco, one of the world's largest nickel-mining companies.
Fumes emerging from the factory are so poisonous that they have destroyed
vegetation in the surrounding countryside, turning the once-beautiful
landscape into the bare, rocky terrain astronauts might expect to find in
outer space.
Although efforts have been made in recent years to reduce emissions from the
plant's 1,250ft chimney - dubbed the Superstack -campaigners say the factory
is still responsible for some of the worst pollution in North America.
David Martin, energy co-ordinator of Greenpeace Canada, said: 'The acid rain
around Sudbury was so bad it destroyed all the plants and the soil slid down
off the hillside.
'The solution they came up with was the Superstack. The idea was to dilute
the pollution, but all it did was spread the fallout right across northern
Ontario. Things improved in the Nineties but the plant is still responsible
for large-scale emissions of sulphur dioxide.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/consumer/caring/article.html?in_article_id=4148
25&in_page_id=511
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day All
I keep seeing on Ebay Curtis controllers in voltages up to 36 volt, at 400A
or so. Assuming that Curtis only use one type of diode, would it be
possible to upgrade (for example) a 12V 400A controller into a 120 volt,
400A controller?
I'm guessing that it would be more likely 120 volt 275A, but the theory
goes like this:
* Cut the power feed to the control circuitry and put in a suitable DC/DC
converter.
* Pull all of the electrolytic capacitors in the power stage and replace
them with ones rated to the maximum voltage likely to be encountered (this
is where I think that the capacity will be reduced by not being able to put
as much capacity in).
* Pull the fets and replace them with some of suitable ratings.
What am I missing?
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Roland,
The website cannot be found and archive.org does not know it either,
so I am guessing there is a spelling error in the name.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
Roland Wiench wrote:
.... Been thinking to do something like this:
http://www.pelzer.net/ebike/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve,
Those are certainly valid arguments.
Trust me, there are places and times I do not like to bike around here.
You do have the option of using a non-motorized bike on the trails?
Just a question - I love your ideas about a small EV, as I think that
too many cars are overweight for their use (you do not need 8,000 lbs
to haul a laptop around) so I endorse every movement to put the
cars on a diet.
As a full disclosure, I should confess that I have a truck that I
only need maybe once a week, I could do with a 1- or 2-seater
the other days. But this is the only EV I could find that did
suit my needs, fit in the budget and was approved by my wife.
The 20+ year young EVcort was a no-no.
As you already noted, a Zilla for a 2400 lbs car is overkill.
If you convert the existing 13 x 8V = 104V to 9 x 12V AGMs for 108V
or even 10 x 12V = 120V AGMs then the power is higher than you have
now (higher voltage and less sag) while it can be much lighter,
which will make it accelerate faster.
Range will be reduced, but you said that was no issue.
Sounds like an interesting way to follow.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Steve Powers
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 5:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Why not a bike or EV scooter for 5 miles ...
I've got a $300 electric scooter - 36 V, 500 A. I've also got a custom made
electric bike with a very large rated 1 HP (could probably go 2.5 times
that). I even have a 22 cc echo industrial gas powered drill with 2 speed
transmission that I planned to hook to an alternator to increase the range
of my custom e-bike ... a true tri-brid vehicle. I actually was going to
make it a trike.
But, they won't do.
I used to ride the scooter, but the terrain is too rough for the small
tires. The bike looks too much like high school science project - a little
too unprofessional for the corporate world. Not to mention it is now in
pieces and I haven't used it in years. I have walking paths all the way
there, but motorized bicycles and scooters are illegal on them. They are
only legal on the street. Now, try driving one of those at 20 MPH when the
posted limit is 40 MPH - in rush hour traffic. Then, try to make a left
turn in traffic. Not to mention, it is very dark in the early morning, and
I don't want to become road kill. My low end EV is only $3000, and although
that is 10x the price of a scooter, at least I arrive safe and dry.
It's now time for new batteries. I want to lighten the car to increase
performance - get (some of) the lead out. The other alternative is to
change the controller, charger, and batteries and go for a 156 V / 1kA
system driving that 9" motor in my little 2400 lb (as converted) car. Now,
that thing would fly. The only thing standing in my way is the $$$. So,
make it lighter I will - or maybe not. Maybe I'll take it down to 72 V and
switch to a 36 / 72 contactor controller to cover the amperage requirement.
That would be ultra cheap and no issue for the 9" motor. I'm sure it can
take it. Or, just go with 72 V and the existing Curtis, but that thing is
going to be sssllllooowww ... very cheap though.
The final option is just stick with the current 13 x 8 V / 400 A
controller and live with the ssslllooowww acceleration. I just hate to
spend nearly $1000 on a set of batts and end up with a snail car, especially
when I never take it over 5 miles.
Well, that's my reasoning for what its worth.
Steve
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Roland,
You are correct - there is a tool for every job.
It is essential to find the right tool or you will
not be happy with the job ;-)
I just wanted to shed a different light on the problem,
which is: how can I get from here to a place about a
50 min walk away?
Most Americans only think of this question as:
how to go to a place a 10 min drive away?
I am happy to experience this same issue as to go to
a place a 20 min bicycle ride away.
I know - this is California and that makes a lot of
difference.
But it still is a good idea to see which alternatives
there are that you may like and what their cost and
benefits are.
On a bicycle, you experience more of the nature around you.
That can be a good thing or really bad.
I have ridden in 4" snow when I lived in The Netherlands
(most Californians never see snow) but I cannot say I
liked it very much, but the closeness to nature and the
avoidance of all costs associated with the car made it
very worthwhile.
There are also hidden savings.
I am not going to a gym, so I have no membership fees or
time that I must allocate to that, because I get enough
workout already and doing that on a bicycle is free.
In your environment, travelling by bicycle can be very
hazardous, so the choice of "tool" to travel is different.
Hauling some supplies is easy on a bike with panniers or
even a trailer. That does not hold 2700 sq ft of roofing,
but I have transported numerous big screen TVs for miles
when I was fixing them to earn money as a student.
They all went on the rack at the back of my bike.
I still go to the produce shop by bicycle.
To keep it on-topic: it is an electric assist bike ;-)
My comment was intended to make a good decision possible
instead of being focussed on the result (electric car)
and only after spending thousands of dollars finding that
although it is a solution, the problem can more elegantly
be solved with a $300 electric bicycle.
As always, YMMV.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:09 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
I don't know why someone what you to use a bike if you have only 5 miles
distance, which someone said I should do. Try to ride through a foot a snow
at -30 below or with the wind blowing at 80 mph which we had yesterday. The
jet stream goes right over the top of us at 200 mph and at the mountain
passes it was over 160 mph!
I drove in the 80 mph wind and could not tell what the wind speed was in my
EV.
I haul all my house materials which I built, except for the concrete in my
EV. Haul 2400 lbs of porcelain tile, 480 each 18 foot 2 x 4's, windows,
doors, 480 sheets of plywood, and 2700 sq ft of roofing.
Try to do that on a bike. I may run my EV about ten 1/2 miles stops a day,
picking up material as I go at a average of 10 to 15 mph. My ICE which can
do over 25 mpg on the highway will be about 5 mpg with this many stops and
load, so the EV is ideal for this.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul G."
To:
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
> On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Lawrence Lile wrote:
>
> > Hop on a bike! If it's too steep, build an electric bike! Or Walk!
> > I'd
> > recommend a couple of rechargeable batteries for your walkman, you'll
> > save a bundle.
> >
>
> :-) But that is not what he asked for. I'm not sure why he wants a car
> to make a 2 mile commute (one way), but he does. I'll give him the
> benefit of any doubt and be confident there is a reason (like not
> getting to work wet when it rains.)
>
> A 5 mile EV is real easy. I would suggest 8 Optima YT batteries for a
> 96v system (if the EV is currently 120 volts you may need to stay there
> to keep a DC to DC converter or other equipment happy.) The used
> batteries should work, but I recommend getting quite a few more than
> you need. Used batteries can be "good", but not play along well
> together (or they can be bad.) Their charge efficiency and self
> discharge rate can drift apart depending on how they where used,
> especially if they where not all used together. It can make charging a
> real pain (Rudman Regs with external loads sized pain.)
>
> Normally with AGM batteries I would suggest regulators (not that I use
> them, but I have to monitor each charge because I don't.) With a small
> pack of Optimas and a short range you can charge gently. A taper
> charger and some Lee Hart zener/light bulb regs should handle it quite
> well. A cheap taper charger can be as simple as a bridge rectifier on a
> heat sink and a variac to adjust the input voltage (a few other parts
> to make it safer should be added.) You could also use a "little
> blinking charger" (Cliplight 5A charger) for each battery. Optimas seem
> to like that charger. Chargers for flooded batteries are generally a
> bad choice for AGMs, unless you can adjust the voltage and current.
>
> 8 Optimas should actually have a range more like 10 miles. But AGMs can
> last a long time if they are not regularly discharged below 50%. It
> seems to be a good fit - one of those cases where AGM will prove
> superior on more than just the good clean fun factor.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
> WAR IS PEACE
> FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> George Orwell, "1984"
>
>
>
> Paul
>
> WAR IS PEACE
> FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> George Orwell, "1984"
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 8:40 PM
Subject: RE: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile range ... really
Comments incerted
> Some reasons Marty Escarcega may desire to convert.
> He lives in Arizona!
> Summertime temps can run up to 120 degrees in the
> shade!
And there is NO shade! Palm trees just don't make it!
> The Dust storms came act like Tornadoes and rip out
> telephone poles!
Good for wind gennies, though?
> The Flash flood rains can drown a car sitting in stop
> and go traffic!
I saw THAT a few years ago when visiting Phoenix!Water over the
floorboards of my Silver Sentra!Had I opened the door? No they won't float
like olde VW's!
> We got a lots of old retired folks (80-90s) (no
> offense to anyone) that use the edge of the side walk
> as a bumper bar to stay lined up with the road.
They are EVerywhere nowadaze, on the fone while driving by the Braille
system.
And
> his location is surround by these types of
> neighborhoods. So riding a bike is hazardous to your
> health. Electric assisted bikes will get you a ticket
> if ridden in a bike lane or sidewalk. Not strictly
> enforced but.
> Maybe paint the Cushman in Dayglow Orange?
> Lets help him create his electric conversion to go the
> distance he requested and not harp on alternatives of
> different vehicles for a 5 mile trip. He has a 3 wheel
> utility vehicle to convert. And he is raring to go.
> That should be enough to get answers.
> See below!
> I have a 9 mile round trip so this topic is rubbing me
> the wrong way. Marty has the vehicle- help him- not
> try to change his mind of what to use. The Golf cart
> transaxle sound to be a sound idea for example.
>
> Thanks
> Hi EVerybody;
Good Point! Marty wants a basic entry level EV, and has a good choice to
play. A golf caret Transaxle and motor shouild get him going. He might want
to hit somebody up, like Rod Wilde for a more powerful motor, that will push
the Cushman up to 40mph or so?He could live with an Altrax 400amp 72 volt
controller,12 Sam's Klub generic Golf cart batteries A simple mechanical
Golf Cart reverser, I think Rod offers them, too?And he lives in AZ so he
doesn't need a fancy heater, AC might be nice, but he will survive a 5 mile
trip with the windoz open?So, Marty, don't give up, hang in there and just
DO IT!
> My two watts worth.
Bob
> --- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hi Roland,
> >
> > You are correct - there is a tool for every job.
> > It is essential to find the right tool or you will
> > not be happy with the job ;-)
> > I just wanted to shed a different light on the
> > problem,
> > which is: how can I get from here to a place about a
> >
> > 50 min walk away?
> > Most Americans only think of this question as:
> > how to go to a place a 10 min drive away?
> > I am happy to experience this same issue as to go to
> > a place a 20 min bicycle ride away.
> > I know - this is California and that makes a lot of
> > difference.
> > But it still is a good idea to see which
> > alternatives
> > there are that you may like and what their cost and
> > benefits are.
> >
> > On a bicycle, you experience more of the nature
> > around you.
> > That can be a good thing or really bad.
> > I have ridden in 4" snow when I lived in The
> > Netherlands
> > (most Californians never see snow) but I cannot say
> > I
> > liked it very much, but the closeness to nature and
> > the
> > avoidance of all costs associated with the car made
> > it
> > very worthwhile.
> > There are also hidden savings.
> > I am not going to a gym, so I have no membership
> > fees or
> > time that I must allocate to that, because I get
> > enough
> > workout already and doing that on a bicycle is free.
> >
> > In your environment, travelling by bicycle can be
> > very
> > hazardous, so the choice of "tool" to travel is
> > different.
> > Hauling some supplies is easy on a bike with
> > panniers or
> > even a trailer. That does not hold 2700 sq ft of
> > roofing,
> > but I have transported numerous big screen TVs for
> > miles
> > when I was fixing them to earn money as a student.
> > They all went on the rack at the back of my bike.
> >
> > I still go to the produce shop by bicycle.
> > To keep it on-topic: it is an electric assist bike
> > ;-)
> >
> > My comment was intended to make a good decision
> > possible
> > instead of being focussed on the result (electric
> > car)
> > and only after spending thousands of dollars finding
> > that
> > although it is a solution, the problem can more
> > elegantly
> > be solved with a $300 electric bicycle.
> >
> > As always, YMMV.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> > http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD#
> > 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Roland Wiench
> > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:09 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile
> > range ... really
> >
> >
> > I don't know why someone what you to use a bike if
> > you have only 5 miles
> > distance, which someone said I should do. Try to
> > ride through a foot a snow
> >
> > at -30 below or with the wind blowing at 80 mph
> > which we had yesterday. The
> >
> > jet stream goes right over the top of us at 200 mph
> > and at the mountain
> > passes it was over 160 mph!
> >
> > I drove in the 80 mph wind and could not tell what
> > the wind speed was in my
> > EV.
> >
> > I haul all my house materials which I built, except
> > for the concrete in my
> > EV. Haul 2400 lbs of porcelain tile, 480 each 18
> > foot 2 x 4's, windows,
> > doors, 480 sheets of plywood, and 2700 sq ft of
> > roofing.
> >
> > Try to do that on a bike. I may run my EV about ten
> > 1/2 miles stops a day,
> > picking up material as I go at a average of 10 to 15
> > mph. My ICE which can
> > do over 25 mpg on the highway will be about 5 mpg
> > with this many stops and
> > load, so the EV is ideal for this.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:30 PM
> > Subject: Re: [BULK] RE: If I only need a 5 mile
> > range ... really
> >
> >
> > > On Dec 15, 2006, at 9:13 AM, Lawrence Lile wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hop on a bike! If it's too steep, build an
> > electric bike! Or Walk!
> > > > I'd
> > > > recommend a couple of rechargeable batteries for
> > your walkman, you'll
> > > > save a bundle. <grin>
> > > >
> > >
> > > :-) But that is not what he asked for. I'm not
> > sure why he wants a car
> > > to make a 2 mile commute (one way), but he does.
> > I'll give him the
> > > benefit of any doubt and be confident there is a
> > reason (like not
> > > getting to work wet when it rains.)
> > >
> > > A 5 mile EV is real easy. I would suggest 8 Optima
> > YT batteries for a
> > > 96v system (if the EV is currently 120 volts you
> > may need to stay there
> > > to keep a DC to DC converter or other equipment
> > happy.) The used
> > > batteries should work, but I recommend getting
> > quite a few more than
> > > you need. Used batteries can be "good", but not
> > play along well
> > > together (or they can be bad.) Their charge
> > efficiency and self
> > > discharge rate can drift apart depending on how
> > they where used,
> > > especially if they where not all used together. It
> > can make charging a
> > > real pain (Rudman Regs with external loads sized
> > pain.)
> > >
> > > Normally with AGM batteries I would suggest
> > regulators (not that I use
> > > them, but I have to monitor each charge because I
> > don't.) With a small
> > > pack of Optimas and a short range you can charge
> > gently. A taper
> > > charger and some Lee Hart zener/light bulb regs
> > should handle it quite
> > > well. A cheap taper charger can be as simple as a
> > bridge rectifier on a
> > > heat sink and a variac to adjust the input voltage
> > (a few other parts
> > > to make it safer should be added.) You could also
> > use a "little
> > > blinking charger" (Cliplight 5A charger) for each
> > battery. Optimas seem
> > > to like that charger. Chargers for flooded
> > batteries are generally a
> > > bad choice for AGMs, unless you can adjust the
> > voltage and current.
> > >
> > > 8 Optimas should actually have a range more like
> > 10 miles. But AGMs can
> > > last a long time if they are not regularly
> > discharged below 50%. It
> > > seems to be a good fit - one of those cases where
> > AGM will prove
> > > superior on more than just the good clean fun
> > factor.
> > >
> >
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.22/590 - Release Date: 12/16/06
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don't let the Stybrook technical information , in a lot of detail for
various different applications, scare you excessively.
These BMS modules are actually quite easy to use, but the instructions
cover some special applications and modifications, so that probably makes it
look worse. They are not that different than regulators available for AGM
batteries, but avoid the need for wires from the battery terminals to the
regulators.
These modules mount to the top of the cells on the battery terminals. (The
same module has 2 sets of holes to fit the different size 100A-hr or 200A-hr
cells I have.) The biggest pain was cutting the short length of threaded rod
for each terminal, (replacing the bolts supplied with the cells, as it is
better to hold down the cable lug tightly with one nut and the BMS board on
top with another nut.)
The BMS boards have 4 connections, 2 each for over and under voltage
outputs, that are wired in parallel (e.g. all the "over V+" terminals
connected together, all the "over V-" terminals connected together, .......)
This ends up giving you, in effect, 2 low current switches for the whole
pack of cells, one in case a cell goes to high in charging and one in case a
cell gets discharged too low, that can be connected to what you want to
operate with the signal. For example, you could operate a warning beeper,
and/or command down the charger current or motor controller current to
protect the batteries. That requires some knowledge about your charger and
motor controller and is part of the problem with a "universal" module meant
to be used with various manfacturers different products.
It seems complex since it is unfamiliar and you were not seeing a short and
simple diagram and instruction set for your installation.
The Valence system is easier to install , where the batteries plug one to
the other and then to the one common U-BMS module for the whole pack - no
wire cutting, striping and installing to the terminals. That saves a lot of
tedious work. The Valence system is actually more complex and
sophisticated, but it perhaps does not appear this way to the installer.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 7:04 PM
Subject: Re: Thundersky BMS?
David wrote:
Paul Compton posted a link to Cedric Lynch's enterprise, Agnimotor. This
may be old news, and if so I apologise; but I was nosing around that
website
and ran across this page :
http://agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=27&Itemi
d=39
http://tinyurl.com/yyw3n8
Hmm .. looks easy enough. Now - you could also tie the anode of a flux
capacitor (http://tinyurl.com/arsqx) to the cell. But in order to do that,
you would have to carefully open the casing, unsolder the epio-array and
bend the middle leg upwards so that it touches the ion-emitter of the
plasma-distributor. This will of course void any warranty. But caution,
never exceed the recommended soldering temperature of exactly 230.5 degree
C (you might want to get a really good temperature gauge) as the hydrogen
fission generator device is very sensitive to heat. After you have
successfully completed this step (and if you are still in the current time
line), you will have to adjust the flux generator to about 1 second before
you disconnected your batteries from the charger. Now - if batteries reach
a certain discharge threshold, the flux capacitor will simply transfer
your battery back in time to the moment they were fully charged.
Hmm ...
Michaela ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2006 3:50 PM
Subject: ADC Motor Mounting
> Can an 8" ADC motor be attached to a transmission using just the 4 bolts
> on the face of the output side housing?
> Or does the steel body of the motor need to be connected to the
> transmission to handle the torque?
> Jack
>
> Hi Jack;
Sure can! Been doing that since Day One with my 9 inch motor in the
Rabbit/ Jetta. Had to make a bracket to hold the END of the motor up. The
other mounts are the stock VW ones that handle the torque of the gas engine.
With an old VW Bug you can just let it ALL hang out! As was the gas engine
did.Just make sure the, the bolts are tight!!
My two mounts worth.
Bob
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.22/590 - Release Date: 12/16/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i've been watching the discussion and the many viewpoints
traditionally, tri-cycles were made for babies .. they were
natural solution .. bi-cycles could not be driven by babies
and kids .. so having 2 wheels at the rear seems good enough
to make the vehicle stable .. naturally, the one wheel in the
front was being used to steer .. and that design was okay
for the tricycle too
the 'natural' extension of this design to 3 wheeler scooters,
vans, etc is understandable .. just scale up the size and add
and engine .. etc
BUT ..
and this is crucial .. the stability of 2 wheels up front is better
than 1 wheel up front .. so there are 3 wheeled vehicles for
carrying heavy goods with two wheels in the front
NOW ..
the issue is not whether the 2 wheels in front provide power and/or
the steering .. or whether the 1 wheel at the rear provides the
steering ..
the steering can be provided by either the 2 front or 1 rear wheel
as also the drive force .. the important thing is THIS :
if 2 wheels in front provide much greater 'stability' when turning ..
and if my life depends on avoiding the accident casued by the
3 wheeler's tendency to roll over to the right when i turn left at high
speed .. then i'd rather have 2 wheels up front .. ONE wheel up front
will only 'help' the rolling over !
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "nikki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: 3 Wheelers stability issues
> Hi Guys and Gals,
>
> It's been an interesting discussion this - what did we start?!?!
>
> Other than the under-steering issue (which I attribute to a light
> front end) I feel the El handles pretty well. It feels like it has
> very little body roll and as the centre of gravity is so low (the
> batteries and motor sit over and between the rear wheels) and while
> it doesn't grip the road quite as well as our 2 liter Honda Prelude
> it does grip.
>
> Driving a three wheeler (with steering on a front single wheel) you
> have to think less like a car driver and more like a motorbike. As
> drivers of modern cars with traction control we always get into the
> bad habit of braking late and perhaps keeping the brakes on as we
> start a corner. Any biker will tell you that it's suicide to do that.
> I used to ride bicycles a lot (sometimes up to 50 miles a day) and I
> can tell you that knowing when to brake and how to approach a corner
> really make a difference! It's the same in a three-wheeler. I can't
> throw it about like a can a car with nice fat wheels and a meaty set
> of discs to help me out. Perhaps it's because I'm used to driving
> classics with drum brakes where you do most of your braking with the
> engine rather than the shoes, or perhaps because I've spun a classic
> on a freeway by braking on a corner but I do feel pretty safe with 3
> wheels.
>
> I've driven lots of cars which are tolerant of braking into a corner
> but I've never had a drive in a 3-wheeler which likes it. The front
> wheel will skip and try to keep going in the direction the rest of
> the car is pushing it. I'm sure a two-wheel front, single driven
> rear will have similar issues with traction. Does anyone know this?
>
> The miniEl is probably the lowest of all 3-wheeled EVs and I think
> it's pretty stable due to the battery and motor placement. It'll be
> interesting to see if the lithium Ions I'm planning will affect the
> handling at all. Of course, the El also has just one central seat, so
> unlike the Zapp Xebra the weight really is symmetrically distributed
> left to right.
>
> In all honesty I think if you drive a 3-wheeler like a car you're
> asking for trouble. Think like a biker. Brake early, and come off
> the brakes before a corner and you're good. I probably start most
> corners slower than a car would, but I reckon I come out faster.
>
> Hope this all makes sense!
>
> Nikki.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Old car? New tricks?
> Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
>
> E-minor isn't just a key any more...
> _______________________________
>
>
> On 15 Dec 2006, at 05:58, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> > Where did you get the 3G lateral from? The add says 1G. I've
> > never even
> > heard of tires that could provide 3G lateral.
> >
> >> <http://www.vigillante.com/vigillante1.htm>
> >>
> >> One wheel in front, and claims to do 3 lateral g, and be very
> >> stable under
> >> heavy breaking.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message ----
> >> From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 6:17:07 PM
> >> Subject: 3 Wheelers WAS Re: [BULK] Re: A different kind of EV
> >> video :)
> >> .. 3 wheeler EV .. stability issues
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Lawrence Lile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 6:55 PM
> >> Subject: RE: [BULK] Re: A different kind of EV video :) .. 3
> >> wheeler EV ..
> >> stability issues
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> In the experiments we've done with 3 wheel bicycles, (yes, some
> >>> of them
> >>> were EV's) you definitely want the two wheels in front for
> >>> cornering.
> >>> If you are turning and braking, then a three wheeler with one
> >>> wheel in
> >>> front goes right over on it's side. I'm skeptical of all the
> >>> commercial
> >>> 3-wheeler EV's out there. The steering wheels need to be in
> >>> front, a
> >>> rear steer vehicle is possible but creates some interesting
> >>> challenges.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Lawrence Lile,
> >>> Hi Lawrence, an" EVerybody;
> >>
> >> I'll go along with Jerry Dycus as to the two wheels on a 3
> >> wheeler
> >> gotta
> >> go up front!In my tour of duties in the Orient I saw a lot of 3
> >> wheelers.
> >> Mazdas I think, that resemble the Zap 3 wheel truck. Hidiously
> >> overloaded
> >> they trundled thrrough the street of Taipei and Saigon.( Gees!
> >> That dates
> >> me) I never saw any overturned, but they don't drive like Americans,
> >> pushing
> >> the limit of EVery vehicle!I saw a Zap a few months ago, asked the
> >> guy he
> >> said it turned over too easy, or something to that effect. it
> >> would appear
> >> to defy the laws of physics, like 300MPH plus Top Fuel Cars, when
> >> you try
> >> to
> >> bend it around a corner? Of course it will want to roll! I don't
> >> think
> >> there
> >> are ANY 3 wheel hiway worthy one- in-front cars?? Flame suit on,
> >> tell me
> >> IF
> >> there are? There are 3 wheel Trikes, motorcycles, but not many cars.I
> >> think
> >> that with the batteries properly placed in a 3 wheeler, it will
> >> handle
> >> beautifully? Jerry D? The real wheel is just providing the push, not
> >> steering. It would seem like alota work to make the REAR wheel
> >> steer, you
> >> would haftas use the front as a power axle, Guess it would work?
> >>
> >> My two Wheels worth
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _____________________________________________________________________
> >> _______________
> >> Do you Yahoo!?
> >> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> >> http://new.mail.yahoo.com
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> > junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
> > whatever I
> > wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
> > long
> > legalistic signature is void.
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.16/582 - Release Date:
11/12/2006
>
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