EV Digest 6232
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: OT question for Prius owners
by "Obrien, Haskell W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) High Performance 7.5 ton Electric Truck
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: European EV cars pulling ahead ?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: European EV cars pulling ahead ?
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: European EV cars pulling ahead ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Zener regs revisited
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zener regs revisited
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Zener regs revisited
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Plan B for Sepex controller
by thomas ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: European EV cars pulling ahead ?
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EV parts available
by "England Nathan-r25543" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It's half EV. We're talking efficiency, and it applies just as much to
full on EVs. The prius has a nice BMS, and I'm curious to know how much
of the pack is getting killed during the lower mileage situations.
Ford actually had training sessions for their hybrid escape drivers.
There are quite a few driving techniques that will improve the mileage.
I almost bought a prius - but the dealer wouldn't take my offer. I found
that keeping an eye on the battery pack was pretty educational as far as
training myself to drive it better.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 8:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: OT question for Prius owners
My wife recently bought a new 2006 Prius. Recently she's been getting
concerned about the mileage
and is questioning whether her car is working right, or has Toyota been
selling us a bill of
goods. Now, I never expected to get the 55-60 mgp the sticker reported,
but sometimes the mileage
is in the low 40's. This is my wife driving, no hotrodding, country
driving, little highway.
But even more disconcerting is the disparity between the cars reported
mileage and actual milage.
The trip computer told us we got 49 mpg on the last tank full. But by
calculating it ourself, it's
closer to 40. That's almost a 25% error in the cars calculations, what
gives?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter-
>
> The only attempt here was to provide some info that is fact not rumor
> and is very reliable. It does not matter what a sate or states allow
> if the vehicle has been restricted from being imported.
Yes but you haven't provided any "facts". I have to wonder why you are so
reluctant to post "facts".
> The real
> purpose of my post was to help potential buyers make a better
> decision- I won't be specific here on the details so everyone can
> speculate all they want until an entirely new rumor surfaces.
Hmm, good idea, let's not waste bandwidth on specific details or facts.
--
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legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Howard from Keystone told me the vehicle was a few months away
but what is this ???
http://www.motorsportwholesalers.com/i-ec5.html
Maybe I should put my 48 volt street legal Geo up for sale ???
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Is the Keystone Flyer available? Last I heard, the store in Salem
was going
> to get them in, but they were still a dream at that time. There
were also
> rumors that it was going to be about double the cost of the
Xebra... but I
> haven't seen one yet.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:14 AM
> Subject: Re: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
>
>
> > I think the Keystone Flyer is a much better value for the dollar
than the
> > Xebra. It has two wheel drive as opposed to one. It has front and
rear
> > wipers, heater and stereo. Most of all it looks a heck of as lot
better.
> > http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerSpecs.html
> > http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerGallery.html
> >
> > Roderick Wilde
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Smith Electric Vehicles of the UK just got a 12 million pound contract for
the sale of 200 of it high performance 7.5 ton delivery trucks to TNT, the
leading express, mail and logistics operator in the UK. Here is an article:
http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com/products.asp?p=n&itemid=128 Go to the
home page to see a picture of this very nice truck. I wish we could have
these in the US!
Roderick Wilde
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--- Begin Message ---
Please read the original post- Are you thinking of buying one? If so
e-mail me and I will give you my phone number and I can tell you all
about it. If you are not thinking of purchasing then it would not be
of value to you.
Thanks
On Dec 21, 2006, at 9:10 AM, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Peter-
The only attempt here was to provide some info that is fact not rumor
and is very reliable. It does not matter what a sate or states allow
if the vehicle has been restricted from being imported.
Yes but you haven't provided any "facts". I have to wonder why you
are so
reluctant to post "facts".
The real
purpose of my post was to help potential buyers make a better
decision- I won't be specific here on the details so everyone can
speculate all they want until an entirely new rumor surfaces.
Hmm, good idea, let's not waste bandwidth on specific details or
facts.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do
whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your
long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris, I am not totally buying your theory that EVs are taking off in the UK
solely because of fuel prices. In the US our fuel prices have gone up 50% in
the last two years which is a much greater percentage wise increase in
pricing. In addition because of how spread out the US is we tend to have
longer commutes. My Fed EX driver just told me his daily commute is 350
miles round trip.Maybe not typical but there are many in the rural areas of
our country that commute more than a 100 miles a day. This kind of increase
in fuel prices really hits the pocket book. Also most EVs aren't able to
handle these distances. In the last year you would think because of the
increased cost of fuel that usage of oil would have gone down here, but it
has gone up. I personally don't think that our fuel prices are spurring EV
development in the US. Maybe by a small factor but in no way proportional to
the amount of rise in fuel costs. There is one other factor that may be
spurring EV development in the UK. Your Prime Minister understands the
implications of global warming. You also have legislation favoring EVs like
congestion taxes in London and free parking for EVs there.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 12:55 AM
Subject: European EV cars pulling ahead ?
>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>
I don't think there should be any doubt that it has been American cars
which
have led the way in this area and have set the scene, so to speak.
Anything
whcih follows on after that is purely as a result of the EV-1, and cars
like
TZero.
Just because there may become a greater number of EV's in the UK than the
US
will not mean that the UK has 'pulled ahead', or that America has 'slipped
behind', or any other of those eroneous type of thoughts.
The simple fact is that last year petrol prices hit 1GBP per litre,
what's
that in dollars ? about $1.50....thereabouts. SO you shouldn;'t think
anyone
is on a mission to 'beat' or 'pull ahead'.......when in fact we are
merely
trying to 'save a small fortune'.....and 'live to our means'.
Personally, I use about 5GBP worth of fuel per day travelling into
Edinburgh
to University, about 18 miles away. Car parking charges are being
introduced
in the area around the University and it will cost at least 5gbp per day
to
got there...which means I will pay 10gbp per day to go to University.
In oprder to give this some perspective and meaning, the minimum wage is
just over 5GBP per hour, and in my part-time job at the weekend I earn
50GBP
per day, so my weeks car running cost of about 40GBP is almost one days
wage, in
a country where education is said to be free.
For comparison, in a South American country I was reading about recently 1
litre costs the same as a Hen's egg, and 1 gallon costs the same as a loaf
of
bread, due to fuel subsidies being implemented......so I predict that that
country will have the slowest uptake of EV's.
It comes down to how much you can afford, and last year in the UK we saw
petrol become that much less affordable......that 1 pound litre roughly
caluclauted as 25p for the petrol, 17p for VAT and the rest in 'fuel
duty'. So motor
fuel carries two taxes....the worst thing about this is that the VAT
(probably equivalent to your State Tax in it's implementation) is
calculated by
including the already added fuel duty, so the ammount of VAT being
collected rises
as the ammount of fuel duty increases, os in a way we are paying a tax for
being taxed.
I hope it's clearer now, that there is no competition with any other
country, and how you can see we get so disappointed , as I'm sure many
Americans do,
when a company such as AC Propulsion sells it's products 'to California
only'. They should be able to see that they only encourage a loss of trade
by
forcing others to take matters into their own hands by not providing a
simple
solution for them to use.
Chris Barron
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--- Begin Message ---
On 12/21/06, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
My Fed EX driver just told me his daily commute is 350
miles round trip.Maybe not typical but there are many in the rural areas of
our country that commute more than a 100 miles a day. This kind of increase
in fuel prices really hits the pocket book. Also most EVs aren't able to
handle these distances
Add fast charging ( 15 minutes ) into equation. It has been
demonstrated at RC-model scale with A123 batteries. If only the
claimed cycle lives ( like ten thousand ) of these new nanotech
batteries hold up..
Build a 100 mile pack and 400 miles a day should be entirely doable.
15 minute stop after 100 miles of driving is entirely acceptable, IMO.
Especially taxis and fleet vehicles will pay off pretty fast i think.
Modec guys in UK are getting it (http://www.modec.co.uk/ )
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> My Fed EX driver just told me his daily commute is 350
> miles round trip... The increase in fuel prices really hits
> the pocket book. Also most EVs aren't able to handle
> these distances.
This is where a hybrid really makes sense. Diesel for long trips to/from the
central depot, electric for the stop-and-go deliveries and to eliminate
excessive idling. The market for such a vehicle is huge! But like passenger
EVs, the traditional truck companies are loathe to work on them. They go
through the motions, but won't really commit to the idea.
Kert Kaido wrote:
> Add fast charging ( 15 minutes ) into equation.
I think swappable battery packs make more sense for a delivery truck. The users
automatically keep going back to a central facility to load/unload. It would
just be "more of the same" to also load/unload a fresh battery pack. That way,
there is zero down-time for charging, and packs can be maintained/replaced
without tying up a vehicle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
>
> I agree with you Roderick that Keystone Flyer is very nice looking for a
low
> cost EV.
>
> Don
>
> In a message dated 12/20/2006 11:15:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> I think the Keystone Flyer is a much better value for the dollar than the
> Xebra. It has two wheel drive as opposed to one. It has front and rear
> wipers, heater and stereo. Most of all it looks a heck of as lot better.
> http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerSpecs.html
> http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerGallery.html
>
> Roderick Wilde
> Have any of our Left Coast Listers seen, or driven one of these? Will you
report back to us?
Thanks
Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:10 AM
> Subject: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
>
>
> >I thought this one may have merit ??
> > http://www.preparedness1.com/geo_metro.htm
> >
> > Any others ??
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date:
> > 12/19/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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12/19/2006
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Safa Tempo will probably be under $10K
see here:
http://www.mygreenwheels.com/journal/2006/12/21/what-makes-kathmandu-the-electric-vehicle-capital-of-the-world.html
-kert
On 12/21/06, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 12:23 AM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
>
> I agree with you Roderick that Keystone Flyer is very nice looking for a
low
> cost EV.
>
> Don
>
> In a message dated 12/20/2006 11:15:36 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> I think the Keystone Flyer is a much better value for the dollar than the
> Xebra. It has two wheel drive as opposed to one. It has front and rear
> wipers, heater and stereo. Most of all it looks a heck of as lot better.
> http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerSpecs.html
> http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerGallery.html
>
> Roderick Wilde
> Have any of our Left Coast Listers seen, or driven one of these? Will you
report back to us?
Thanks
Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:10 AM
> Subject: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
>
>
> >I thought this one may have merit ??
> > http://www.preparedness1.com/geo_metro.htm
> >
> > Any others ??
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date:
> > 12/19/2006
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.25/593 - Release Date:
12/19/2006
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.26/594 - Release Date: 12/20/06
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are some pics of a batch I built several months ago to play with.
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Zener_Regs.pdf You'll note from the photos I
put them over the PowerCheqs since they do not perform a clamping function.
The PowerCheqs will happily allow your batteries voltage to go too high if they
can't keep up with the shuttling of current. My PowerCheqs shuttled around 2aH
per charge. Having the Zener Regs on only increased that to 3aH per charge and
was still not enough for me to keep running the AGM's. Got Floodies now for
the time being.
Also not I did not add potting compound as these were mainly for proof of
concept. They're slow, and if you charge slow they'll work. Please feel free
to copy this to a more permanent website because I can't guarantee this one
will be here forEVer.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Storm Connors
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:45 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Zener regs revisited
>
>
> "The way these are built" It sure would be nice to have a picture
> showing how you built them. I just recently heard about drilling a
> hole in the lug, the free end of the zener outside the lug... and I built two
> of them. If we sent you a digital camera, would you post a picture somewhere?
>
> So far not any offers on my Hart reg parts. Even ridiculous offers
> entertained. :-) storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's cool. You ended up with the diodes inside the terminals! I guess that
since the diode is generating the heat, that makes sense. If Lee had terminals
with closed ends, that would explain the hole he is talking about. The ones I
built looked way different- but I didn't need a wire. :-)
Thanks for the post,
storm
The parts are on their way to Myles.
----- Original Message ----
From: MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 1:29:18 PM
Subject: RE: Zener regs revisited
Here are some pics of a batch I built several months ago to play with.
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Zener_Regs.pdf You'll note from the photos I
put them over the PowerCheqs since they do not perform a clamping function.
The PowerCheqs will happily allow your batteries voltage to go too high if they
can't keep up with the shuttling of current. My PowerCheqs shuttled around 2aH
per charge. Having the Zener Regs on only increased that to 3aH per charge and
was still not enough for me to keep running the AGM's. Got Floodies now for
the time being.
Also not I did not add potting compound as these were mainly for proof of
concept. They're slow, and if you charge slow they'll work. Please feel free
to copy this to a more permanent website because I can't guarantee this one
will be here forEVer.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Storm Connors
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:45 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Zener regs revisited
>
>
> "The way these are built" It sure would be nice to have a picture
> showing how you built them. I just recently heard about drilling a
> hole in the lug, the free end of the zener outside the lug... and I built two
> of them. If we sent you a digital camera, would you post a picture somewhere?
>
> So far not any offers on my Hart reg parts. Even ridiculous offers
> entertained. :-) storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Excellent photo essay Mike. Even I can follow it. If I were running lead I'd
build some myself.
--- MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here are some pics of a batch I built several months ago to play with.
> http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Zener_Regs.pdf You'll note from the photos
> I put them over the
> PowerCheqs since they do not perform a clamping function. The PowerCheqs
> will happily allow
> your batteries voltage to go too high if they can't keep up with the
> shuttling of current. My
> PowerCheqs shuttled around 2aH per charge. Having the Zener Regs on only
> increased that to 3aH
> per charge and was still not enough for me to keep running the AGM's. Got
> Floodies now for the
> time being.
>
> Also not I did not add potting compound as these were mainly for proof of
> concept. They're
> slow, and if you charge slow they'll work. Please feel free to copy this to
> a more permanent
> website because I can't guarantee this one will be here forEVer.
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Storm Connors
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:45 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: Zener regs revisited
> >
> >
> > "The way these are built" It sure would be nice to have a picture
> > showing how you built them. I just recently heard about drilling a
> > hole in the lug, the free end of the zener outside the lug... and I built
> > two of them. If we
> sent you a digital camera, would you post a picture somewhere?
> >
> > So far not any offers on my Hart reg parts. Even ridiculous offers
> > entertained. :-) storm
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been following some of the suggestions by Lee
Hart and others about simple controllers fora sepex
motor, the thread was titled
something like "Plan B for a sepex controller". In
fact I think I have also read some old archives of
this list where Lee Hart
described how he controlled a separately excited motor
with 1/2 and full voltage on the armature and a
rheostat on the field. Lee if
you are reading this and have the time to answer, was
this used in a car? was it successful? how long did
you use it for?
I'd be gratefull if someone on the list could comment
on whether I have correctly understood the
possibilities.
1. applying a constant (sensible) voltage across the
field and varying the armature voltage with for
example a Zilla would give
behaviour similar to a PM motor.
2. applying one or a few fixed voltages through the
armature and varying the voltage through the field
would give a usable controller.
Presumably if the voltage through the field was varied
by a variable resistor there would be some minor heat
dissipation issues of a
similar order to a high powered domestic light bulb.
3. the setup described in 2. could be achieved with
two separate battery packs, one large high voltage
pack for the armature and one
smaller lower voltage pack for the field.
4. I'm not sure whether these controllers would give
regen (which isn't a big issue to me). If this does
not give regen then would
there be a need for cooling to dissipate heat in
armature and/or field if the throttle is dropeed
without applying brakes?
5. for both 1. and 2./3. reverseing the field current
would reverse the motor.
6. one man with no knowledge of inductance, back emf ,
etc. etc. could succesfully wire up the above in
between changing nappies on two
small children (assuming the man is capable of
learning from the initial mistake of breaking the
rather well designed original
controller).
7. if the answer to 6. is "not a good idea" does
anyone know of a company/person in essex/east london,
UK who could wire up a
controller. (or better still fix the existing one).
the motor is a Leroy Somer in a factory built Citroen
Berlingo, the controller is an IGBT type made by
Sagem. I am intending to take
the top off the controller in January but I don't know
anything more about it at the moment.
thanks for any comments
Tom Ward
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
> And another thing.
> Co is completely orderless.
>
> Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so many
> people tragically die.
>
> YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
>
> You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if you got
> to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any red
> blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
>
> AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other componenets
> of the smoke not the co.
>
>
Yer full of it...
Been there done that. You feel like crap, and have many signs and symptoms.
Any fool knows that exhaust of any kind can and does contain CO
Plan accordingly.
Pure CO is not seen by anyone outside of a Lab or test cell. CO from gensets
and Barbies Smells of Pistons and Kingsford.
Your do get warnings..LOTs of them.
Pay attention to them and Live
Get off your "The world is going to end!"... it makes me sick.
I deal with this kind of stuff day in and out... So does anyone that works
with power equipment.
Square your hat and shoulders and get on with life.
And lets get off this Thread since it's no longer gaining us anything.
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey some real data!!!
Note the Headache.....
There's yer Sign!.
In all cases except the last and instantly fatal.
High flow O2 is what we were trained to do. AFTER we got them out of the CO
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
> >From a well-written and well-referenced Wikipedia entry:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
>
> "Prolonged exposure to fresh air (or pure oxygen) is required for the
> CO-tainted hemoglobin (carboxyhaemoglobin) to clear. Carbon monoxide
> detectors for homes are now readily available and are increasingly being
> required by municipal building codes." (My parents have at least two
> detectors in the home.)
>
> "Hemoglobin acquires a bright red colour when converted to
> carboxyhemoglobin, so a casualty of CO poisoning is described in
> textbooks as looking pink-cheeked and healthy. However, this "classic"
> cherry-red appearance is very uncommon - it has only been noted in 2% of
> cases so care should be taken not to overlook the diagnosis even if this
> colour is not present." (So the blue color of blood is only in the lack
> of oxygen, such as in drowning.)
>
> "- 35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of
> constant exposure.
> - 100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours.
> - 200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours.
> - 400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours.
> - 800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 minutes.
> Insensible within two hours.
> - 1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes.
> Death in less than two hours.
> - 3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
> minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
> - 6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Death
> in less than 20 minutes.
> - 12,800 ppm (1.28%) Death in less than three minutes."
>
> "A significant controversy in the medical literature is whether or not
> hyperbaric oxygen actually offers any extra benefits over normal high
> flow oxygen in terms of increased survival or improved long term
> outcomes...The authors suggested a large, well designed, externally
> audited, multicentre trial to compare normal oxygen with hyperbaric
> oxygen."
>
> - Arthur
>
>
> On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 12:59 -0800, GWMobile wrote:
> > And another thing.
> > Co is completely orderless.
> >
> > Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so many
> > people tragically die.
> >
> > YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
> >
> > You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if you got
> > to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any red
> > blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
> >
> > AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other componenets
> > of the smoke not the co.
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > > I don't buy this at all.
> > >
> > > CO is dangerous..But not that scarry..
> > >
> > > Even reasonable air flow is all you need.
> > > I have run all sorts of power equipment and Had no issues, Unless it
> > > was in
> > > a confined place with zero airflow.
> > >
> > > Clearly it matters how large the combustion is. Smoke of all sorts has
> > > CO in
> > > it. Smokey camp fires, Brush fires, and such, But the airflow is
> > > sufficient.
> > > I don't know how many times I have gotten a headache from various
smoke
> > > and
> > > flames and engines, The only scarrey thing was a large trash pump in a
> > > basment 32 years ago In a hurricane in Pennsylviana.
> > >
> > > If you can smell exhaust, to be aware is the point. No sleeping
> > > allowed
> > >
> > > Hey I started this thread.. and now we are in the Panic and Fear
> > > compition.
> > > Bull, everybody who works with power equipment knows what they can and
> > > can't
> > > get away with.
> > >
> > > AND your assement of what to do with a CO victim is FLAT ASS WRONG!
> > >
> > > You VERY quickly get them to fresh air.
> > > Monitor vital signs,
> > > Look for Blue lips or any other funny skin colors,
> > > THEN call 911.
> > > Note here get to fresh air BEFORE calling 911.
> > >
> > > The advanced resquer administers 02 at the Fastest rate possible and
> > > Calls
> > > for support and transport.
> > > After that he looks out for his own and other Resquers saftey and
shuts
> > > off
> > > the CO source and or leaves the sean to not become a victim yourself.
> > >
> > > You can take a LOT of CO and still function if you plain have to in
> > > dire
> > > circumstances.
> > > You have to be personally aware of the signs and effects on your own
> > > body.
> > >
> > > It's not a simple death sentace... it prudence and experience.
> > >
> > > Your body DOES exchange the CO for C02 and 02 if it has time. It's the
> > > time
> > > factor that most don't know about.
> > > It's hours not minutes, and you feel sick for the most part of a day.
> > > It takes hours in a HyperBaric chamber with high O2 levels, that we
all
> > > hear
> > > about, This is a life saver for sure. It saves the other wise Dead.
> > >
> > > The walking Zombies.. just get them to fresh air... and help them
> > > recover.
> > > They will.. if they have not had too much.
> > >
> > > I have a just a tad of First Aid and training.. and years of working
> > > with
> > > power equipment.. and a couple of close calls in my early Teens.
> > >
> > > Rich Rudman
> > > Manzanita Micro
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking the trash pickups trucks really should be electric.
These are the automated trucks that use robotics to pickup and dump the
trashcans here in Sacramento. All they do all day is move 15 feet and
come to screeching halt, pick up trash and dump it, then race another 15
feet, etc, etc, all day long. They make a HUGE amount of noise, both
motor and brake noise and engine noise to operate the robotic controls.
Wakes everyone up at 5am.
They could use electric torque to move the heavy truck and regen it
right back to stop, could hold a lot of battery weight, the trucks are
already massively heavy. Should make maintainance a lot easier too, I'm
sure those trucks have to be worked on constantly.
At minimum use a hybrid with a smaller quieter motor to charge batteries
if battery capacity can't make the round trip.
Somewhat like the mail trucks, but these are 10 times more appropriate.
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
Roderick Wilde wrote:
My Fed EX driver just told me his daily commute is 350
miles round trip... The increase in fuel prices really hits
the pocket book. Also most EVs aren't able to handle
these distances.
This is where a hybrid really makes sense. Diesel for long trips to/from the
central depot, electric for the stop-and-go deliveries and to eliminate
excessive idling. The market for such a vehicle is huge! But like passenger
EVs, the traditional truck companies are loathe to work on them. They go
through the motions, but won't really commit to the idea.
Kert Kaido wrote:
Add fast charging ( 15 minutes ) into equation.
I think swappable battery packs make more sense for a delivery truck. The users
automatically keep going back to a central facility to load/unload. It would just be
"more of the same" to also load/unload a fresh battery pack. That way, there is
zero down-time for charging, and packs can be maintained/replaced without tying up a
vehicle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a friend in Huntsville asking how to get hold of you for
information. I think you can copy my from the header and contact me, I
can give you his email off-list.
Thanks,
Nate
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those are interesting numbers that show just how deadly co is.
For example at 8 hundreths of 1% in the air you will be in convulsions
in 45 minutes.
By the way being dead in a period of time does not mean you will be able
to save yourself before that period of time. With co you are typically
incapacitated before you recognize you have a problem and thus you die
unless someone stumbles on you first.
Interesting at only .32 percent you are dead in 30 minutes . That's not
32 percent but pt 32 percent.
So the difference between being outside running your car and dying or
not dying within 30 minutes may literally be if the breeze shifts or
slows down for 5 minutes. Or if you happen to be in the wind shadow of
your car or a tree so the 10 cubic feet of air around you doesn't mix
enough.
Of course co is heavier than air so if you are in a low point or say
your child is in the basement that happens to be vented to the side of
the house next to the driveway the he will be dead before you even know
a thing.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 5:05 pm, Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
From a well-written and well-referenced Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
"Prolonged exposure to fresh air (or pure oxygen) is required for the
CO-tainted hemoglobin (carboxyhaemoglobin) to clear. Carbon monoxide
detectors for homes are now readily available and are increasingly
being
required by municipal building codes." (My parents have at least two
detectors in the home.)
"Hemoglobin acquires a bright red colour when converted to
carboxyhemoglobin, so a casualty of CO poisoning is described in
textbooks as looking pink-cheeked and healthy. However, this "classic"
cherry-red appearance is very uncommon - it has only been noted in 2%
of
cases so care should be taken not to overlook the diagnosis even if
this
colour is not present." (So the blue color of blood is only in the
lack
of oxygen, such as in drowning.)
"- 35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of
constant exposure.
- 100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours.
- 200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours.
- 400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours.
- 800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 minutes.
Insensible within two hours.
- 1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes.
Death in less than two hours.
- 3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
- 6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Death
in less than 20 minutes.
- 12,800 ppm (1.28%) Death in less than three minutes."
"A significant controversy in the medical literature is whether or not
hyperbaric oxygen actually offers any extra benefits over normal high
flow oxygen in terms of increased survival or improved long term
outcomes...The authors suggested a large, well designed, externally
audited, multicentre trial to compare normal oxygen with hyperbaric
oxygen."
- Arthur
On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 12:59 -0800, GWMobile wrote:
And another thing.
Co is completely orderless.
Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so many
people tragically die.
YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if you
got
to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any red
blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other
componenets
of the smoke not the co.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
> I don't buy this at all.
>
> CO is dangerous..But not that scarry..
>
> Even reasonable air flow is all you need.
> I have run all sorts of power equipment and Had no issues, Unless it
> was in
> a confined place with zero airflow.
>
> Clearly it matters how large the combustion is. Smoke of all sorts
has
> CO in
> it. Smokey camp fires, Brush fires, and such, But the airflow is
> sufficient.
> I don't know how many times I have gotten a headache from various
smoke
> and
> flames and engines, The only scarrey thing was a large trash pump
in a
> basment 32 years ago In a hurricane in Pennsylviana.
>
> If you can smell exhaust, to be aware is the point. No sleeping
> allowed
>
> Hey I started this thread.. and now we are in the Panic and Fear
> compition.
> Bull, everybody who works with power equipment knows what they can
and
> can't
> get away with.
>
> AND your assement of what to do with a CO victim is FLAT ASS WRONG!
>
> You VERY quickly get them to fresh air.
> Monitor vital signs,
> Look for Blue lips or any other funny skin colors,
> THEN call 911.
> Note here get to fresh air BEFORE calling 911.
>
> The advanced resquer administers 02 at the Fastest rate possible and
> Calls
> for support and transport.
> After that he looks out for his own and other Resquers saftey and
shuts
> off
> the CO source and or leaves the sean to not become a victim
yourself.
>
> You can take a LOT of CO and still function if you plain have to in
> dire
> circumstances.
> You have to be personally aware of the signs and effects on your own
> body.
>
> It's not a simple death sentace... it prudence and experience.
>
> Your body DOES exchange the CO for C02 and 02 if it has time. It's
the
> time
> factor that most don't know about.
> It's hours not minutes, and you feel sick for the most part of a
day.
> It takes hours in a HyperBaric chamber with high O2 levels, that we
all
> hear
> about, This is a life saver for sure. It saves the other wise Dead.
>
> The walking Zombies.. just get them to fresh air... and help them
> recover.
> They will.. if they have not had too much.
>
> I have a just a tad of First Aid and training.. and years of working
> with
> power equipment.. and a couple of close calls in my early Teens.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HOLD on folks there are Truths and facts here you all are missing.
FACT you can Feel a little lightheaded...and already have a lethal dose of
CO.
FACT Getting to fresh air is the first step in care of a CO victim.
For most, this is all that is needed.
FACT some walking Dead.. can be saved with HyperBaric treament with
highlevels of Oxygen.
Both can happen.
You don't really know how much CO you have absorbed. This is the really
scarry part.
Almost every instace has clear exhaust smell, true CO is orderless and taste
less but the other combustion products that also happen ,stink to high
heaven. A clear sigh that you need to beaware and look out for others that
have been in the CO cloud and not realize what they are being subjected to.
The light headedness, the headache the blue lips and other Cyanotic skin
effects are your signs and symptoms. You can have a nasty dose and still
live through it.
I have.. the headaches and dizzyness were the warning signs. The Danger came
when we tried to haul a 200 lbs trashpump up a flight of stairs, and due to
the loss of O2 we were fainting while really straining to do hard work. We
did not know how badly we were affected until we were in a bad place. WE
did get the pump out the door. I spent the rest of the afternoon sick and
dazed with a splitting headache and a general " Migraine" aftereffect.
This is as close as I wish to ever come to that level of CO poisoning. That
pump could have Killed us by CO or by crushing us as we passed out. If we
had passed out in that hole..we would have never made it out.
So.. folks lets keep in mind that I have hands on time with this Danger..
And I don't like folks playing it up or down.
It can and does KILL.
A observeant man can deal with it and have very few problems..
So the Safety Nazis and the "Can't happen to me" folks are both wrong and
should give some quarter on thier point of views.
Lister Bruce Sherry and familly are still in the dark a week after the Big
Wind storm. Dave Cloud's Answering machine works, so something is powered up
at Dave's.
Last night's new storm was a Breaze.. a couple of flickering lights but
that's about it.
They are now talking about 2 more wind events one on Christmas Eve.. OH
fun...
The Woodinville Duval road was hit very hard I hear.. took out both feeders
and a Substation.
It could be a couple more days before they rebuild the entire Grid up the
hill from Woodinville.
I expect some folks have a LOT of fresh firewood for next year.
I am much farther out in the Boonies, But faired very well.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
> People most certainly do feel symptoms well before passing out, but they
> are most often not correctly recognized.
> They're generally confused with the flu. It may also impair reasoning
> enough to reduce the chances of a person going through all the possible
> reasons why they suddenly feel sick. People tend to think of flu, food
> poisoning, stress, low blood sugar, "am I pregnant?" or whatever before
> asking themselves questions about the room they're in.
>
> This thing about you already being dead is a load of bull. CO poisoning
> is rarely anything "sudden". CO poisoning does not go away by getting
> to fresh air, but it'll certainly put you in better shape. If the
> blood's still able to carry enough O2 to keep you concious, then you're
> not going to die once you get some fresh air. Of course depending on
> the severity and any other medical conditions the victim may have,
> medical intervention may be very helpful. If you just felt woozy and
> suspected a CO poisoning situation (gee maybe I shouldn't have been
> running the car even with the garage half open), just get fresh air
> immediately and keep people out of the enclosed area until the problem
> is dealt with. You don't need to call 911. If you or someone else is
> disoriented, semiconcious, confused, whatever, maybe you should call 911
> to be safe.
>
> If you've passed out, then the brain is starving and of course it's
> likely you will absorb even more CO until it's fatal. That's the real
> problem. Like I say some people will stay calm and not realize anything
> is wrong until they pass out so of course it's a killer.
>
> Danny
>
> GWMobile wrote:
>
> > And another thing.
> > Co is completely orderless.
> >
> > Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so many
> > people tragically die.
> >
> > YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
> >
> > You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if you
> > got to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any
> > red blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
> >
> > AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other
> > componenets of the smoke not the co.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
