EV Digest 6233
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Zener regs revisited
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zener regs revisited
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: High Performance 7.5 ton Electric Truck
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Reasons for UK EV increase
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Cabin Heaters
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Cabin Heaters
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) What is the potential for using mass produced car alternaters as motors.
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 2 differing floodie philosophies on initial charges
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: What is the potential for using mass produced car
alternaters as motors.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://controller.junkymagi.com/Zener_Regs.pdf
A (more) permanent home. :o)
----- Original Message -----
From: "MIKE WILLMON" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 12:29 PM
Subject: RE: Zener regs revisited
Here are some pics of a batch I built several months ago to play with.
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Zener_Regs.pdf You'll note from the
photos I put them over the PowerCheqs since they do not perform a clamping
function. The PowerCheqs will happily allow your batteries voltage to go
too high if they can't keep up with the shuttling of current. My
PowerCheqs shuttled around 2aH per charge. Having the Zener Regs on only
increased that to 3aH per charge and was still not enough for me to keep
running the AGM's. Got Floodies now for the time being.
Also not I did not add potting compound as these were mainly for proof of
concept. They're slow, and if you charge slow they'll work. Please feel
free to copy this to a more permanent website because I can't guarantee
this one will be here forEVer.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Storm Connors
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 9:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zener regs revisited
"The way these are built" It sure would be nice to have a picture
showing how you built them. I just recently heard about drilling a
hole in the lug, the free end of the zener outside the lug... and I built
two of them. If we sent you a digital camera, would you post a picture
somewhere?
So far not any offers on my Hart reg parts. Even ridiculous offers
entertained. :-) storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Co exposure is cumulative.
So if your are exposed to a small amount over time it slowly but surely
takes up all the red blood cells in your body without warning and you
DIE.
It is not like smoke or just "getting a little fresh air".
You must completely eliminate any exposure to it.
You simply can't have a "mix of fresh air" and a little co. The co will
slowly but surely permanently attach to the red bloods in your body and
unless you get completely away from it and give your body several days
to make new red blood cells you will eventually die.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
I don't buy this at all.
CO is dangerous..But not that scarry..
Even reasonable air flow is all you need.
I have run all sorts of power equipment and Had no issues, Unless it
was in
a confined place with zero airflow.
Clearly it matters how large the combustion is. Smoke of all sorts has
CO in
it. Smokey camp fires, Brush fires, and such, But the airflow is
sufficient.
I don't know how many times I have gotten a headache from various smoke
and
flames and engines, The only scarrey thing was a large trash pump in a
basment 32 years ago In a hurricane in Pennsylviana.
If you can smell exhaust, to be aware is the point. No sleeping
allowed
Hey I started this thread.. and now we are in the Panic and Fear
compition.
Bull, everybody who works with power equipment knows what they can and
can't
get away with.
AND your assement of what to do with a CO victim is FLAT ASS WRONG!
You VERY quickly get them to fresh air.
Monitor vital signs,
Look for Blue lips or any other funny skin colors,
THEN call 911.
Note here get to fresh air BEFORE calling 911.
The advanced resquer administers 02 at the Fastest rate possible and
Calls
for support and transport.
After that he looks out for his own and other Resquers saftey and shuts
off
the CO source and or leaves the sean to not become a victim yourself.
You can take a LOT of CO and still function if you plain have to in
dire
circumstances.
You have to be personally aware of the signs and effects on your own
body.
It's not a simple death sentace... it prudence and experience.
Your body DOES exchange the CO for C02 and 02 if it has time. It's the
time
factor that most don't know about.
It's hours not minutes, and you feel sick for the most part of a day.
It takes hours in a HyperBaric chamber with high O2 levels, that we all
hear
about, This is a life saver for sure. It saves the other wise Dead.
The walking Zombies.. just get them to fresh air... and help them
recover.
They will.. if they have not had too much.
I have a just a tad of First Aid and training.. and years of working
with
power equipment.. and a couple of close calls in my early Teens.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2006 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
Needless to say you ca't leave a car idling inside the carport either.
That's even worse but I assume people already know that.
You can't leave a car idling in the driveway.
You will kill yourself from carbon monooxide.
A whole famile was killed when the idling car OUTSIDE in the driveway
put out enough carbon monoxide to leak under their back door and kill
the whole family inside the house.
People don't realize that you can never leave a car idling near
people.
Carbon monoxide is extremely invasive and poisonous.
It seeps everywhere and by the time you feel anything your whole blood
stream is saturated and you are already dead. (Fresh air doesn't help
by
then because all you r red blood cells are permanently tied up with
the
carbon monoxide molecules and only a blood transfusion gives you any
chance)
On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 1:35 pm, Bill Dennis wrote:
> About how much power can a ICE's alternator put out when the engine
is
> idling? I ask because we had a 12-hour power outage at our house
over
> the weekend, and I was unable to get my backup generator started. I
> did, however, have a 300W inverter that I hooked up to some of my
EV
> batteries. It takes only about 300W to operate three of my radiant
> floor heating pumps and keep the main part of the house warm . I
was
> wondering, however, if I left our 4Running idling in the driveway
and
> ran heavy extension cord to the inverter, if the car could supply
> enough power in a pinch.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those are interesting numbers that show just how deadly co is.
For example at 8 hundreths of 1% in the air you will be in convulsions
in 45 minutes.
By the way being dead in a period of time does not mean you will be able
to save yourself before that period of time. With co you are typically
incapacitated before you recognize you have a problem and thus you die
unless someone stumbles on you first.
Interesting at only .32 percent you are dead in 30 minutes . That's not
32 percent but pt 32 percent.
So the difference between being outside running your car and dying or
not dying within 30 minutes may literally be if the breeze shifts or
slows down for 5 minutes. Or if you happen to be in the wind shadow of
your car or a tree so the 10 cubic feet of air around you doesn't mix
enough.
Of course co is heavier than air so if you are in a low point or say
your child is in the basement that happens to be vented to the side of
the house next to the driveway the he will be dead before you even know
a thing.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 5:05 pm, Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
From a well-written and well-referenced Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
"Prolonged exposure to fresh air (or pure oxygen) is required for the
CO-tainted hemoglobin (carboxyhaemoglobin) to clear. Carbon monoxide
detectors for homes are now readily available and are increasingly
being
required by municipal building codes." (My parents have at least two
detectors in the home.)
"Hemoglobin acquires a bright red colour when converted to
carboxyhemoglobin, so a casualty of CO poisoning is described in
textbooks as looking pink-cheeked and healthy. However, this "classic"
cherry-red appearance is very uncommon - it has only been noted in 2%
of
cases so care should be taken not to overlook the diagnosis even if
this
colour is not present." (So the blue color of blood is only in the
lack
of oxygen, such as in drowning.)
"- 35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of
constant exposure.
- 100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours.
- 200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours.
- 400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours.
- 800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 minutes.
Insensible within two hours.
- 1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes.
Death in less than two hours.
- 3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
- 6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Death
in less than 20 minutes.
- 12,800 ppm (1.28%) Death in less than three minutes."
"A significant controversy in the medical literature is whether or not
hyperbaric oxygen actually offers any extra benefits over normal high
flow oxygen in terms of increased survival or improved long term
outcomes...The authors suggested a large, well designed, externally
audited, multicentre trial to compare normal oxygen with hyperbaric
oxygen."
- Arthur
On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 12:59 -0800, GWMobile wrote:
And another thing.
Co is completely orderless.
Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so many
people tragically die.
YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if you
got
to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any red
blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other
componenets
of the smoke not the co.
On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
> I don't buy this at all.
>
> CO is dangerous..But not that scarry..
>
> Even reasonable air flow is all you need.
> I have run all sorts of power equipment and Had no issues, Unless it
> was in
> a confined place with zero airflow.
>
> Clearly it matters how large the combustion is. Smoke of all sorts
has
> CO in
> it. Smokey camp fires, Brush fires, and such, But the airflow is
> sufficient.
> I don't know how many times I have gotten a headache from various
smoke
> and
> flames and engines, The only scarrey thing was a large trash pump
in a
> basment 32 years ago In a hurricane in Pennsylviana.
>
> If you can smell exhaust, to be aware is the point. No sleeping
> allowed
>
> Hey I started this thread.. and now we are in the Panic and Fear
> compition.
> Bull, everybody who works with power equipment knows what they can
and
> can't
> get away with.
>
> AND your assement of what to do with a CO victim is FLAT ASS WRONG!
>
> You VERY quickly get them to fresh air.
> Monitor vital signs,
> Look for Blue lips or any other funny skin colors,
> THEN call 911.
> Note here get to fresh air BEFORE calling 911.
>
> The advanced resquer administers 02 at the Fastest rate possible and
> Calls
> for support and transport.
> After that he looks out for his own and other Resquers saftey and
shuts
> off
> the CO source and or leaves the sean to not become a victim
yourself.
>
> You can take a LOT of CO and still function if you plain have to in
> dire
> circumstances.
> You have to be personally aware of the signs and effects on your own
> body.
>
> It's not a simple death sentace... it prudence and experience.
>
> Your body DOES exchange the CO for C02 and 02 if it has time. It's
the
> time
> factor that most don't know about.
> It's hours not minutes, and you feel sick for the most part of a
day.
> It takes hours in a HyperBaric chamber with high O2 levels, that we
all
> hear
> about, This is a life saver for sure. It saves the other wise Dead.
>
> The walking Zombies.. just get them to fresh air... and help them
> recover.
> They will.. if they have not had too much.
>
> I have a just a tad of First Aid and training.. and years of working
> with
> power equipment.. and a couple of close calls in my early Teens.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Conductivity varies. "Artic Silver" is a highly thermally conductive
epoxy. It uses silver powder, but it is somehow encapsulated.
Realistically, it is very difficult to epoxy two conductive surfaces
together though without making them electrically conductive. They'll
touch. If you put in something to space the two surfaces off from each
other, then it will significantly increase the thermal impedance of the
joint. Despite the silver fill and all, the thermal impedance per unit
of thickness is still pretty high- getting a low thermal impedance
relies on only having a thin layer of epoxy.
Danny
Mark McCurdy wrote:
is there a preferred thermally conductive epoxy to use and method
of getting it in there?
Thermally conductive epoxy is sold by Mouser and other electronics
distributors. It is basically just regular old epoxy with metal or
silica dust mixed in to improve heat conduction. You could use JB
Weld in a pinch.
I drill a hole in the lug, insert the zener, solder it, solder the
lead wire on, slide a piece of heat shrink tubing over it, pour in
the epoxy, and then shrink the tubing. With practice, you can get the
"right" amount of epoxy so it just fills the space.
Be careful, metal dust mixed in will also make it conductive of
electricity
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[Despite being OT, I feel this discussion is relevant enough to warrant
a proper understanding and conclusion.]
GWMobile wrote (what's your name??):
> Of course co is heavier than air so if you are in a low point or say
> your child is in the basement that happens to be vented to the side of
> the house next to the driveway the he will be dead before you even know
> a thing.
Whaaaat? Heavier than air? Only if you're in pure nitrogen (and then
you've got other problems, like not being able to breathe anyway).
>From a DOE "Ask a scientist" archive:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03364.htm
"Add them up for the molecular weights of pure gases:
H2=(1+1)=2, very light
He=(4)=4, very light
N2=(14+14)=28, about neutral
O2=(16+16)=32, slightly heavy
CO2=(12+16+16)=44, heavy
CO=(12+16)=28, about neutral
CH4=(12+4*1)=18, light (majority part of natural gas)
H2O=(2*1+16)=18, light (steam)
C2H6=(2*12+6*1)=30, about neutral (minority part of natural gas)
C3H8=(8+3*12)=42, heavy (propane)
C4H10=(10+4*12)=58, (butane)
C5H12=(12+5*12)=70, pentane, lightest part of gasoline"
"For mixed gases just take a proportionate average:
Air is 80% N2 + 20% O2.
Air=0.8(28)+0.2(32)=29 (exactly neutral, by definition)"
So CO is slightly lighter than air. From the same page:
"High or low in a room; It makes no difference where you put the
detector -- but not because carbon monoxide and air have approximately
the same density. Both are gases and as a result, diffusion alone and
the entropy effect will take care of mixing them. Any convection
currents and/or forced-air turbulence present will also enable the gases
to mix and affect the detector."
"It is popularly misconceived that light (low-density) gases will
somehow float atop heavy (higher density) gases. Indeed, if the higher
density gas was admitted low in the room, and done so in a manner that
would not cause much mixing, it would take a while for the gases to
become thoroughly mixed by the mechanisms mentioned above. Even so, they
would eventually mix."
"That said, since time to detection may be of the essence, and in
circumstances where the contaminant gas (such as radon -- a gas of very
high density) gets into the room through entry points more or less at
floor level, where one puts the detector can become important."
Rich Rudman wrote:
> The light headedness, the headache the blue lips and other Cyanotic
> skin effects are your signs and symptoms. You can have a nasty dose
> and still live through it.
As I referenced, blue lips will only occur due to a lack of oxygen. Of
course, CO is caused from combustion due to a lack of oxygen - but this
may not necessarily mean the entire area is free of oxygen. Blue lips
apply if your building is on fire, but not if your furnace is leaking.
They are a good thing to note in a victim, but they do not indicate that
someone is surely poisoned. (So a lack of discoloration means the
person could still be poisoned! A measurement of carboxyhemoglobin
should be taken instead; above 25%, the person is at risk.)
- Arthur
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I believe Smith is one of Enova's clients.
Anyone have any experience or insight on Enova's AC Drive system
packages?
-Sam
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: High
Performance 7.5 ton Electric Truck
From: "Roderick Wilde"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, December 21, 2006 8:50
am
To: <[email protected]>
Smith Electric Vehicles
of the UK just got a 12 million pound contract for
the sale of 200
of it high performance 7.5 ton delivery trucks to TNT, the
leading
express, mail and logistics operator in the UK. Here is an article:
http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com/products.asp?p=n&itemid=128
Go to the
home page to see a picture of this very nice truck.
I wish we could have
these in the US!
Roderick Wilde
--
No virus found in this outgoing
message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus
Database: 268.15.26/594 - Release Date: 12/20/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want to sell it myself here in San Francisco, Callem up. I bet they
aren't available. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Michael Perry" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 8:48 AM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
> Steve Howard from Keystone told me the vehicle was a few months away
>
> but what is this ???
>
> http://www.motorsportwholesalers.com/i-ec5.html
>
> Maybe I should put my 48 volt street legal Geo up for sale ???
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> >
> > Is the Keystone Flyer available? Last I heard, the store in Salem
> was going
> > to get them in, but they were still a dream at that time. There
> were also
> > rumors that it was going to be about double the cost of the
> Xebra... but I
> > haven't seen one yet.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 11:14 AM
> > Subject: Re: Alternatives to the Xebra ? Less than $10K
> >
> >
> > > I think the Keystone Flyer is a much better value for the dollar
> than the
> > > Xebra. It has two wheel drive as opposed to one. It has front and
> rear
> > > wipers, heater and stereo. Most of all it looks a heck of as lot
> better.
> > > http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerSpecs.html
> > > http://www.keystonecarts.com/KeystoneFlyerGallery.html
> > >
> > > Roderick Wilde
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~
You make an excellent point Roderick, I was merely giving an opinion though.
I haven't lived in the States so couldn't be expected to understand the
socio-economic workings of your country.
One point in particluar stands out among others...you say that in the states
the
average EV can't make a commute of 100 miles. Being the size of Island we are
we have lower commuting distances, but we have always been this size and
commutes
have always been so long.
Would it not be fair of me to say that IF your commutes were within range of
common
EV's then as the price of fuel rose more people would take what is a
practical alternative
Of course, we'll never actually know, but I suspect that US citizens are
the same as UK
citizens, give or take a little bit for how important your engine size has
been , traditionally
speaking, then aren't you all very much like us, and if a sensible workable
solution appears
you naturally take it.
I appreciate what you say about the government being in favour of EV's, but
you should really
only interpret that in the very loosest sense of the word 'favour'. In
reality, EV's also
benefit from free road tax, a tax which is supposed to pay for road
maintenance. Presently, EV's
are exempt from road tax, but we must wonder how many EV's which get free
road tax it takes
before somebody complains and tax for EV's is raised to the appropriate
level, the level which relates
to the ammount of damage they do in terms of fair wear and tear, like any
other vehicle.
It really isn't the case that EV's will be 'favoured' for very long. We have
a government which
seems to want to set a world example in terms of supporting environmental
issues, but as a
leaked internal document published this week revealed, the government knows
it is
considered to be a headless chicken and is the laughing stock at the moment
for it's
fickle and illogical ways.
I am receiving no grant to build my EV's, and while I will save £120 per
year in road tax
I won't benefit from congestion charge exemption, simply because there isn't
one in the
majority of British towns and cities, I wouldn't look at London's example
and think it is typical
of British ciies, if anything it's just a smoke screen, so to speak.
No, the reason I'm building an EV is to be £160 per month better off in
terms of fuel savings,
which will allow me and my family to have a better holiday next year.
Chris, I am not totally buying your theory that EVs are taking off in the UK
solely because of fuel prices. In the US our fuel prices have gone up 50% in
the last two years which is a much greater percentage wise increase in
pricing. In addition because of how spread out the US is we tend to have
longer commutes. My Fed EX driver just told me his daily commute is 350
miles round trip.Maybe not typical but there are many in the rural areas of
our country that commute more than a 100 miles a day. This kind of increase
in fuel prices really hits the pocket book. Also most EVs aren't able to
handle these distances. In the last year you would think because of the
increased cost of fuel that usage of oil would have gone down here, but it
has gone up. I personally don't think that our fuel prices are spurring EV
development in the US. Maybe by a small factor but in no way proportional to
the amount of rise in fuel costs. There is one other factor that may be
spurring EV development in the UK. Your Prime Minister understands the
implications of global warming. You also have legislation favoring EVs like
congestion taxes in London and free parking for EVs there.
Roderick Wilde
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>
I was looking around for something to discharge my battery pack with, and
recalled reading that series motors are also sometimes called universal motors,
and can be powered by either AC or DC.
They also happen to be used in lots of power tools, so just out of interest
I connected my Bosch drill to the 72V pack...it ran, as did my sander.
Interestingly so did my heatgun, used for paintstripping and so on.
For you guys in the US, one benefit of having 110V mains is that you can
get appliances which are designed to run on low voltages, and I wonder if you
couldn't get a 110V heatgun to run really well as a cabin heater too. Or what
about one of those small mains space heaters.
Of course, if you all already know about this excuse me for having my fun,
It's not new to me either but it's novel and it's fun !
Happy holidays to you all
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
and wouldn't the CO be part of very hot exhaust, hot air rises, doesn't it?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 4:35 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
[Despite being OT, I feel this discussion is relevant enough to warrant
a proper understanding and conclusion.]
GWMobile wrote (what's your name??):
Of course co is heavier than air so if you are in a low point or say
your child is in the basement that happens to be vented to the side of
the house next to the driveway the he will be dead before you even know
a thing.
Whaaaat? Heavier than air? Only if you're in pure nitrogen (and then
you've got other problems, like not being able to breathe anyway).
From a DOE "Ask a scientist" archive:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03364.htm
"Add them up for the molecular weights of pure gases:
H2=(1+1)=2, very light
He=(4)=4, very light
N2=(14+14)=28, about neutral
O2=(16+16)=32, slightly heavy
CO2=(12+16+16)=44, heavy
CO=(12+16)=28, about neutral
CH4=(12+4*1)=18, light (majority part of natural gas)
H2O=(2*1+16)=18, light (steam)
C2H6=(2*12+6*1)=30, about neutral (minority part of natural gas)
C3H8=(8+3*12)=42, heavy (propane)
C4H10=(10+4*12)=58, (butane)
C5H12=(12+5*12)=70, pentane, lightest part of gasoline"
"For mixed gases just take a proportionate average:
Air is 80% N2 + 20% O2.
Air=0.8(28)+0.2(32)=29 (exactly neutral, by definition)"
So CO is slightly lighter than air. From the same page:
"High or low in a room; It makes no difference where you put the
detector -- but not because carbon monoxide and air have approximately
the same density. Both are gases and as a result, diffusion alone and
the entropy effect will take care of mixing them. Any convection
currents and/or forced-air turbulence present will also enable the gases
to mix and affect the detector."
"It is popularly misconceived that light (low-density) gases will
somehow float atop heavy (higher density) gases. Indeed, if the higher
density gas was admitted low in the room, and done so in a manner that
would not cause much mixing, it would take a while for the gases to
become thoroughly mixed by the mechanisms mentioned above. Even so, they
would eventually mix."
"That said, since time to detection may be of the essence, and in
circumstances where the contaminant gas (such as radon -- a gas of very
high density) gets into the room through entry points more or less at
floor level, where one puts the detector can become important."
Rich Rudman wrote:
The light headedness, the headache the blue lips and other Cyanotic
skin effects are your signs and symptoms. You can have a nasty dose
and still live through it.
As I referenced, blue lips will only occur due to a lack of oxygen. Of
course, CO is caused from combustion due to a lack of oxygen - but this
may not necessarily mean the entire area is free of oxygen. Blue lips
apply if your building is on fire, but not if your furnace is leaking.
They are a good thing to note in a victim, but they do not indicate that
someone is surely poisoned. (So a lack of discoloration means the
person could still be poisoned! A measurement of carboxyhemoglobin
should be taken instead; above 25%, the person is at risk.)
- Arthur
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My heater came out of a $35 Honey Well ceramic heater from Lowes. Works
great.
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 6:43 PM
Subject: Cabin Heaters
~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>~>
I was looking around for something to discharge my battery pack with, and
recalled reading that series motors are also sometimes called universal
motors,
and can be powered by either AC or DC.
They also happen to be used in lots of power tools, so just out of
interest
I connected my Bosch drill to the 72V pack...it ran, as did my sander.
Interestingly so did my heatgun, used for paintstripping and so on.
For you guys in the US, one benefit of having 110V mains is that you
can
get appliances which are designed to run on low voltages, and I wonder if
you
couldn't get a 110V heatgun to run really well as a cabin heater too. Or
what
about one of those small mains space heaters.
Of course, if you all already know about this excuse me for having my fun,
It's not new to me either but it's novel and it's fun !
Happy holidays to you all
Chris
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.26/594 - Release Date:
12/20/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Umm,
You guys kind of miss the point. The difference between almost instantly
fatal is millions of parts .
The headache only shows up in a window so small that you can't depend on
it at all.
Never burn gasoline engines standing still.
Why are you guys trying to convince yourselves to do something so
dangerous?
Would you put a few drops of arsenic in you water and hope you can
detect symptoms before you die?
Don't burn gasoline engines unles they are in motion.
Never idle them in one place. The neighbor you may kill me!
Put your life in the hands of 1000 part percentage of the mix of co in
air that you can't control is just silly.
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 3:36 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
Hey some real data!!!
Note the Headache.....
There's yer Sign!.
In all cases except the last and instantly fatal.
High flow O2 is what we were trained to do. AFTER we got them out of
the CO
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
>From a well-written and well-referenced Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
"Prolonged exposure to fresh air (or pure oxygen) is required for the
CO-tainted hemoglobin (carboxyhaemoglobin) to clear. Carbon monoxide
detectors for homes are now readily available and are increasingly
being
required by municipal building codes." (My parents have at least two
detectors in the home.)
"Hemoglobin acquires a bright red colour when converted to
carboxyhemoglobin, so a casualty of CO poisoning is described in
textbooks as looking pink-cheeked and healthy. However, this "classic"
cherry-red appearance is very uncommon - it has only been noted in 2%
of
cases so care should be taken not to overlook the diagnosis even if
this
colour is not present." (So the blue color of blood is only in the
lack
of oxygen, such as in drowning.)
"- 35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours
of
constant exposure.
- 100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours.
- 200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours.
- 400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours.
- 800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45
minutes.
Insensible within two hours.
- 1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes.
Death in less than two hours.
- 3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
- 6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes.
Death
in less than 20 minutes.
- 12,800 ppm (1.28%) Death in less than three minutes."
"A significant controversy in the medical literature is whether or not
hyperbaric oxygen actually offers any extra benefits over normal high
flow oxygen in terms of increased survival or improved long term
outcomes...The authors suggested a large, well designed, externally
audited, multicentre trial to compare normal oxygen with hyperbaric
oxygen."
- Arthur
On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 12:59 -0800, GWMobile wrote:
> And another thing.
> Co is completely orderless.
>
> Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so
many
> people tragically die.
>
> YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
>
> You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if
you got
> to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any
red
> blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
>
> AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other
componenets
> of the smoke not the co.
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > I don't buy this at all.
> >
> > CO is dangerous..But not that scarry..
> >
> > Even reasonable air flow is all you need.
> > I have run all sorts of power equipment and Had no issues, Unless
it
> > was in
> > a confined place with zero airflow.
> >
> > Clearly it matters how large the combustion is. Smoke of all
sorts has
> > CO in
> > it. Smokey camp fires, Brush fires, and such, But the airflow is
> > sufficient.
> > I don't know how many times I have gotten a headache from various
smoke
> > and
> > flames and engines, The only scarrey thing was a large trash pump
in a
> > basment 32 years ago In a hurricane in Pennsylviana.
> >
> > If you can smell exhaust, to be aware is the point. No sleeping
> > allowed
> >
> > Hey I started this thread.. and now we are in the Panic and Fear
> > compition.
> > Bull, everybody who works with power equipment knows what they
can and
> > can't
> > get away with.
> >
> > AND your assement of what to do with a CO victim is FLAT ASS
WRONG!
> >
> > You VERY quickly get them to fresh air.
> > Monitor vital signs,
> > Look for Blue lips or any other funny skin colors,
> > THEN call 911.
> > Note here get to fresh air BEFORE calling 911.
> >
> > The advanced resquer administers 02 at the Fastest rate possible
and
> > Calls
> > for support and transport.
> > After that he looks out for his own and other Resquers saftey and
shuts
> > off
> > the CO source and or leaves the sean to not become a victim
yourself.
> >
> > You can take a LOT of CO and still function if you plain have to
in
> > dire
> > circumstances.
> > You have to be personally aware of the signs and effects on your
own
> > body.
> >
> > It's not a simple death sentace... it prudence and experience.
> >
> > Your body DOES exchange the CO for C02 and 02 if it has time.
It's the
> > time
> > factor that most don't know about.
> > It's hours not minutes, and you feel sick for the most part of a
day.
> > It takes hours in a HyperBaric chamber with high O2 levels, that
we
all
> > hear
> > about, This is a life saver for sure. It saves the other wise
Dead.
> >
> > The walking Zombies.. just get them to fresh air... and help them
> > recover.
> > They will.. if they have not had too much.
> >
> > I have a just a tad of First Aid and training.. and years of
working
> > with
> > power equipment.. and a couple of close calls in my early Teens.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes why are people posting things about co and idleing gas engines
anyway.
Electricity is safe.
Leave the smelly silent killer stuff to the gasoline mailing lists.
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 3:36 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
And another thing.
Co is completely orderless.
Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so many
people tragically die.
YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if you
got
to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any red
blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other
componenets
of the smoke not the co.
Yer full of it...
Been there done that. You feel like crap, and have many signs and
symptoms.
Any fool knows that exhaust of any kind can and does contain CO
Plan accordingly.
Pure CO is not seen by anyone outside of a Lab or test cell. CO from
gensets
and Barbies Smells of Pistons and Kingsford.
Your do get warnings..LOTs of them.
Pay attention to them and Live
Get off your "The world is going to end!"... it makes me sick.
I deal with this kind of stuff day in and out... So does anyone that
works
with power equipment.
Square your hat and shoulders and get on with life.
And lets get off this Thread since it's no longer gaining us anything.
Madman
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We always talk about how motors can be regen alternators.
Should then several belted together alternators be an inexpensive way to
create a drive motor?
How much motive power would a say 300 watt car alternator have if you
put juice into it?
I am wondering if this is a good $/per hp solution?
Probably not the most efficient I understand but what about from a $ /
hp standpoint?
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Dec 21, 2006, at 3:51 PM, GWMobile wrote:
Never burn gasoline engines standing still.
Oh come on! I live in western WA - we have whole freeways full of ICE
cars standing still and the driver in the back isn't dying. Only in the
EV world have I ever seen a running generator moving - the rest are
standing still!
I'll listen to local authorities (not in a garage or near an open
window, and a few other warnings) before I accept the panic being
spread on this list right now. I know its the EV list, but exaggeration
in the name of promotion is NOT promotion.
Paul "neon" G.
(Oh, tuning rear engine VW Beetles never killed me either)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob and all,
Bob Bath wrote:
Needless to say as the batts. complete charging they
force the charger to ramp back current and taper up
the voltage, thereby finishing the charge.
This doesn't make sense. The charger should never be decreasing output
current while simultaneously increasing output voltage. It should follow
a typical 2-stage (IU) or, better yet, 3-stage (IUI) algorithm. "I"
being a stage where output current is held constant (and voltage
increases as the batteries' SOC increases), and "U" being a stage where
the voltage is held constant (and the current decreases as the
batteries' SOC increases).
1) C/10, which in this case is 17.8 A charge current.
2) Hit the batteries initially with as much as you
can, say 25-30A, as they will finish their charge more
"completely".
So it sounds like the only difference between your 2 stated methods of
charging is the amount of current used during the first constant current
(I) stage?
If this is the case, it shouldn't affect the batteries' ability to
charge more "completely"... as this first high-current "bulk" stage of
charging only gets the batteries up to about 80% SOC anyway. It is the
charging methods used during the subsequent stage(s) of charging that
are responsible for finishing off the charge and bringing the battery to
100+% SOC.
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:59 PM 21/12/06 -0500, GWMobile wrote:
We always talk about how motors can be regen alternators.
Should then several belted together alternators be an inexpensive way to
create a drive motor?
Inexpensive for the motor, yes. Inexpensive as a drive solution, no.
How much motive power would a say 300 watt car alternator have if you put
juice into it?
a) not enough and b) none at all once you've burnt it out.
I am wondering if this is a good $/per hp solution?
No. Automotive alternators are not designed as a rule to be efficient, plus
you need to custom-build a suitable AC drive for them.
Probably not the most efficient I understand but what about from a $ / hp
standpoint?
Poor. I helped my first boss 20-odd years ago connect up an alternator with
a 3-phase transformer and a DC power supply for the field. It ran, and had
more torque than you could stop with your hand, but IIRC he hooked it up to
an aircon compressor to be an air compressor and it couldn't drive that to
any useable pressure (which IIRC requires about 3/4hp minimum).
Hope this helps.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
