EV Digest 6234
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) article: Venturi Eclectic ready for solar/wind-powered launch
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: What is the potential for using mass produced car alternaters
as motors.
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Plan B for Sepex controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 2 differing floodie philosophies on initial charges
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Zener regs revisited
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EVs are extremely dangerous, don't leave one running in yor living room
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) I need to fix my EV
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: I need to fix my EV
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: OT question for Prius owners
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Zebra Purchase Warning
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: What is the potential for using mass produced car
alternaters as motors.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: What does it take to upgrade a Curtis controller?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OT question for Prius owners
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Free Forklift in San Francisco
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Gang, this thread is not just OT, it's WAY off topic. For cryin' out loud, EVs
don't produce any CO. Besides, I'm sure most people on this list are
sufficiently well educated to know the dangers and proper precautions.
Carbon monoxide safety is the kind of parental yet non-controversial advice
that local newspapers and TV stations love to dispense. They're great at it.
Let them deal with this stuff. We don't need to - or want to - on this list.
If you really want to keep arguing about CO, please take it to private email.
Let's have no more posts in this thread. It's already chewed up too much
bandwidth.
Thanks for helping us keep the list focused.
David Roden
EV List Assistant Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some on the list may even be able to afford this Venturi, $30k US,
available June 2007:
http://www.mobilemag.com/content/100/354/C11005/#
or:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/19/venturi-readies-the-launch-of-its-solar-wind-powered-eclectic/
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James,
I understand that all of your other points are valid about low
efficiency and whatnot.
What voltage did you run the alternator at? At 60Hz it doesn't seem like
it would have much power. I don't know how many poles an alternator has
though.
--
Martin K
James Massey wrote:
Poor. I helped my first boss 20-odd years ago connect up an alternator
with a 3-phase transformer and a DC power supply for the field. It
ran, and had more torque than you could stop with your hand, but IIRC
he hooked it up to an aircon compressor to be an air compressor and it
couldn't drive that to any useable pressure (which IIRC requires about
3/4hp minimum).
Hope this helps.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen this posted before on other sites... but no one had any specifics.
If the US Gov't is considering restricting 3-wheel vehicles, I haven't been
able to find it listed on any of their official sites or in Google.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 7:55 AM
Subject: Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
> I believe you are wrong. Federal law doesnt care where the passenger (if
> any) sits. All it cares about is the number of wheels. Some state laws
> are more restrictive, but that is at thed state level.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is getting pointless, but I thought I'd chime in.
Seems any stationary gasoline engine powered device should be outlawed?
Generators?
Trash Pumps?
Jaws of life hydraulic pumps?
Chain saws if you're only swinging it a couple feet?
Concrete Saws?
Backup Generators for Hospitals/Water/Wastewater Plants?
Do you make the UPS man shut off his truck when he stops to drop of you
packages?
Later,
Darin
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 6:51 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
Umm,
You guys kind of miss the point. The difference between almost instantly
fatal is millions of parts .
The headache only shows up in a window so small that you can't depend on
it at all.
Never burn gasoline engines standing still.
Why are you guys trying to convince yourselves to do something so
dangerous?
Would you put a few drops of arsenic in you water and hope you can detect
symptoms before you die?
Don't burn gasoline engines unles they are in motion.
Never idle them in one place. The neighbor you may kill me!
Put your life in the hands of 1000 part percentage of the mix of co in air
that you can't control is just silly.
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 3:36 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
Hey some real data!!!
Note the Headache.....
There's yer Sign!.
In all cases except the last and instantly fatal.
High flow O2 is what we were trained to do. AFTER we got them out of the
CO
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
>From a well-written and well-referenced Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
"Prolonged exposure to fresh air (or pure oxygen) is required for the
CO-tainted hemoglobin (carboxyhaemoglobin) to clear. Carbon monoxide
detectors for homes are now readily available and are increasingly
being
required by municipal building codes." (My parents have at least two
detectors in the home.)
"Hemoglobin acquires a bright red colour when converted to
carboxyhemoglobin, so a casualty of CO poisoning is described in
textbooks as looking pink-cheeked and healthy. However, this "classic"
cherry-red appearance is very uncommon - it has only been noted in 2%
of
cases so care should be taken not to overlook the diagnosis even if
this
colour is not present." (So the blue color of blood is only in the
lack
of oxygen, such as in drowning.)
"- 35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours of
constant exposure.
- 100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours.
- 200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours.
- 400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours.
- 800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45 minutes.
Insensible within two hours.
- 1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes.
Death in less than two hours.
- 3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
- 6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes. Death
in less than 20 minutes.
- 12,800 ppm (1.28%) Death in less than three minutes."
"A significant controversy in the medical literature is whether or not
hyperbaric oxygen actually offers any extra benefits over normal high
flow oxygen in terms of increased survival or improved long term
outcomes...The authors suggested a large, well designed, externally
audited, multicentre trial to compare normal oxygen with hyperbaric
oxygen."
- Arthur
On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 12:59 -0800, GWMobile wrote:
> And another thing.
> Co is completely orderless.
>
> Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so many
> people tragically die.
>
> YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
>
> You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if you
got
> to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any red
> blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
>
> AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other
componenets
> of the smoke not the co.
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > I don't buy this at all.
> >
> > CO is dangerous..But not that scarry..
> >
> > Even reasonable air flow is all you need.
> > I have run all sorts of power equipment and Had no issues, Unless
it
> > was in
> > a confined place with zero airflow.
> >
> > Clearly it matters how large the combustion is. Smoke of all sorts
has
> > CO in
> > it. Smokey camp fires, Brush fires, and such, But the airflow is
> > sufficient.
> > I don't know how many times I have gotten a headache from various
smoke
> > and
> > flames and engines, The only scarrey thing was a large trash pump
in a
> > basment 32 years ago In a hurricane in Pennsylviana.
> >
> > If you can smell exhaust, to be aware is the point. No sleeping
> > allowed
> >
> > Hey I started this thread.. and now we are in the Panic and Fear
> > compition.
> > Bull, everybody who works with power equipment knows what they can
and
> > can't
> > get away with.
> >
> > AND your assement of what to do with a CO victim is FLAT ASS WRONG!
> >
> > You VERY quickly get them to fresh air.
> > Monitor vital signs,
> > Look for Blue lips or any other funny skin colors,
> > THEN call 911.
> > Note here get to fresh air BEFORE calling 911.
> >
> > The advanced resquer administers 02 at the Fastest rate possible
and
> > Calls
> > for support and transport.
> > After that he looks out for his own and other Resquers saftey and
shuts
> > off
> > the CO source and or leaves the sean to not become a victim
yourself.
> >
> > You can take a LOT of CO and still function if you plain have to in
> > dire
> > circumstances.
> > You have to be personally aware of the signs and effects on your
own
> > body.
> >
> > It's not a simple death sentace... it prudence and experience.
> >
> > Your body DOES exchange the CO for C02 and 02 if it has time. It's
the
> > time
> > factor that most don't know about.
> > It's hours not minutes, and you feel sick for the most part of a
day.
> > It takes hours in a HyperBaric chamber with high O2 levels, that we
all
> > hear
> > about, This is a life saver for sure. It saves the other wise Dead.
> >
> > The walking Zombies.. just get them to fresh air... and help them
> > recover.
> > They will.. if they have not had too much.
> >
> > I have a just a tad of First Aid and training.. and years of
working
> > with
> > power equipment.. and a couple of close calls in my early Teens.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming and
the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.26/594 - Release Date:
12/20/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: thomas ward
> Lee, if you are reading this and have the time to answer, was
> this used in a car? was it successful? how long did you use it for?
Yes, I used it on my first EV; a converted 1974 Datsun pickup truck. I had 72v
of golf cart batteries, a surplus aircraft generator as a motor, and a homemade
controller. I drove it from about 1977-1980.
These aircraft generators are basically shunt motors. Noisy and not
particularly efficient; but cheap and light and easy to control. Mine was rated
at 30v 500amps, but I ran it with up to 72v. The armature had no problem with
72v, but I had to keep the time that the field spent at 72v very short (15-20
seconds or less) to avoid burning it out.
>1. applying a constant (sensible) voltage across the field and varying the
> armature voltage with for example a Zilla would give behaviour similar
> to a PM motor.
Correct. It tries to run at a constant speed, determined by armature voltage.
It behaves like a car with the "cruise" control on, fighting to stay at the
designated speed (maximum power trying to maintain speed on any hill, maximum
regen trying to hold speed going downhill).
>2. applying one or a few fixed voltages through the armature and varying
> the voltage through the field would give a usable controller. Presumably
> if the voltage through the field was varied by a variable resistor there
> would be some minor heat dissipation issues of a similar order to a high
> powered domestic light bulb.
Correct. Again, it behaves like a constant-speed motor (though you can set the
constant speed with the field current). You need a starting resistor in series
with the armature to get reasonably smooth starts.
>3. the setup described in 2. could be achieved with two separate battery
> packs, one large high voltage pack for the armature and one smaller
> lower voltage pack for the field.
Yes. Nothing says that the armature and field need to come from the same pack.
>4. I'm not sure whether these controllers would give regen (which isn't a
> big issue to me). If this does not give regen then would there be a need
> for cooling to dissipate heat in armature and/or field if the throttle is
> dropped without applying brakes?
With a shunt or sepex motor, you have to add parts to PREVENT regen. It will
naturally be there if you don't prevent it. With a large generator as a motor,
the amount of regen is really quite excessive, so you have to limit it for
safety's sake (to avoid skidding the driven tires, or damaging the batteries
from excessive regen current). With normal motors not intended for use as
generators, you need to limit regen to prevent motor damage from brush arcing.
>5. for both 1. and 2./3. reverseing the field current would reverse the motor.
Right!
>6. one man with no knowledge of inductance, back emf ,
> etc. etc. could succesfully wire up the above in between
> changing nappies on two small children (assuming the
> man is capable of learning from the initial mistake of
> breaking the rather well designed original controller).
Like anything else, how "easy" it is depends on your experience, and how good
the advice you have is. When I did the above system, I had virtually no
experience and almost no good advice, so I made a lot of "interesting"
mistakes. Luckily, I wasn't working with expensive parts, so I just replaced
them and kept tinkering. It did work in the end!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Blue lips are not a sign of co posioning.
That is wrong. You weren't getting co poision if you had blue lips.
Co poisioning is not the save as oxygen depravation.
Fresh air doesn't cure co poisioning.
Your blood cells don't give up the co once attached. So getting into
fresh air doenst make your blood absorb more oxtgen. You have to grow
more blood
Cells which takes days.
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 4:48 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
HOLD on folks there are Truths and facts here you all are missing.
FACT you can Feel a little lightheaded...and already have a lethal dose
of
CO.
FACT Getting to fresh air is the first step in care of a CO victim.
For most, this is all that is needed.
FACT some walking Dead.. can be saved with HyperBaric treament with
highlevels of Oxygen.
Both can happen.
You don't really know how much CO you have absorbed. This is the really
scarry part.
Almost every instace has clear exhaust smell, true CO is orderless and
taste
less but the other combustion products that also happen ,stink to high
heaven. A clear sigh that you need to beaware and look out for others
that
have been in the CO cloud and not realize what they are being subjected
to.
The light headedness, the headache the blue lips and other Cyanotic
skin
effects are your signs and symptoms. You can have a nasty dose and
still
live through it.
I have.. the headaches and dizzyness were the warning signs. The Danger
came
when we tried to haul a 200 lbs trashpump up a flight of stairs, and
due to
the loss of O2 we were fainting while really straining to do hard work.
We
did not know how badly we were affected until we were in a bad place.
WE
did get the pump out the door. I spent the rest of the afternoon sick
and
dazed with a splitting headache and a general " Migraine" aftereffect.
This is as close as I wish to ever come to that level of CO poisoning.
That
pump could have Killed us by CO or by crushing us as we passed out. If
we
had passed out in that hole..we would have never made it out.
So.. folks lets keep in mind that I have hands on time with this
Danger..
And I don't like folks playing it up or down.
It can and does KILL.
A observeant man can deal with it and have very few problems..
So the Safety Nazis and the "Can't happen to me" folks are both wrong
and
should give some quarter on thier point of views.
Lister Bruce Sherry and familly are still in the dark a week after the
Big
Wind storm. Dave Cloud's Answering machine works, so something is
powered up
at Dave's.
Last night's new storm was a Breaze.. a couple of flickering lights but
that's about it.
They are now talking about 2 more wind events one on Christmas Eve.. OH
fun...
The Woodinville Duval road was hit very hard I hear.. took out both
feeders
and a Substation.
It could be a couple more days before they rebuild the entire Grid up
the
hill from Woodinville.
I expect some folks have a LOT of fresh firewood for next year.
I am much farther out in the Boonies, But faired very well.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 3:00 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
People most certainly do feel symptoms well before passing out, but
they
are most often not correctly recognized.
They're generally confused with the flu. It may also impair reasoning
enough to reduce the chances of a person going through all the
possible
reasons why they suddenly feel sick. People tend to think of flu,
food
poisoning, stress, low blood sugar, "am I pregnant?" or whatever
before
asking themselves questions about the room they're in.
This thing about you already being dead is a load of bull. CO
poisoning
is rarely anything "sudden". CO poisoning does not go away by getting
to fresh air, but it'll certainly put you in better shape. If the
blood's still able to carry enough O2 to keep you concious, then
you're
not going to die once you get some fresh air. Of course depending on
the severity and any other medical conditions the victim may have,
medical intervention may be very helpful. If you just felt woozy and
suspected a CO poisoning situation (gee maybe I shouldn't have been
running the car even with the garage half open), just get fresh air
immediately and keep people out of the enclosed area until the problem
is dealt with. You don't need to call 911. If you or someone else is
disoriented, semiconcious, confused, whatever, maybe you should call
911
to be safe.
If you've passed out, then the brain is starving and of course it's
likely you will absorb even more CO until it's fatal. That's the real
problem. Like I say some people will stay calm and not realize
anything
is wrong until they pass out so of course it's a killer.
Danny
GWMobile wrote:
> And another thing.
> Co is completely orderless.
>
> Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so
many
> people tragically die.
>
> YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
>
> You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if you
> got to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have
any
> red blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
>
> AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other
> componenets of the smoke not the co.
>
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of the things they try to nail home to EMT students is to evaluate
the entire situation, not just the victim.
Relevant case is that walking into a place with a high CO concentration
may overwhelm the person helping. People trying to help often get
tunnel vision and may fail to recognize a situation which may still to
be dangerous. It would take one of those high exposure situations or an
extended exposure time, like trying to help the person before removing
yourselves from the room, but it's possible.
Danny
Mark McCurdy wrote:
As I referenced, blue lips will only occur due to a lack of oxygen. Of
course, CO is caused from combustion due to a lack of oxygen - but this
may not necessarily mean the entire area is free of oxygen. Blue lips
apply if your building is on fire, but not if your furnace is leaking.
They are a good thing to note in a victim, but they do not indicate that
someone is surely poisoned. (So a lack of discoloration means the
person could still be poisoned! A measurement of carboxyhemoglobin
should be taken instead; above 25%, the person is at risk.)
- Arthur
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
>> Needless to say as the batts. complete charging they
>> force the charger to ramp back current and taper up
>> the voltage, thereby finishing the charge.
From: Nick Viera
> This doesn't make sense. The charger should never be decreasing
> output current while simultaneously increasing output voltage.
> It should follow a typical 2-stage (IU) or, better yet, 3-stage (IUI)
> algorithm.
Ideally, yes. a perfect IU or IUI charger would work like this. In practice,
90% of battery chargers are "taper" chargers; they start at a low voltage and
high current, and as the charge cycle progress, the voltage continuously rises,
*and* the current continuously falls. Even chargers that claim to be IU or IUI
often taper to one degree or another.
>> 1) C/10, which in this case is 17.8 A charge current.
>> 2) Hit the batteries initially with as much as you can, say 25-30A,
>> as they will finish their charge more "completely".
> So it sounds like the only difference between your 2 stated methods of
> charging is the amount of current used during the first constant current
> (I) stage?
>
>If this is the case, it shouldn't affect the batteries' ability to
>charge more "completely"... as this first high-current "bulk" stage of
>charging only gets the batteries up to about 80% SOC anyway. It is the
>charging methods used during the subsequent stage(s) of charging that
>are responsible for finishing off the charge and bringing the battery to
>100+% SOC.
Agreed. Until you get to about 80% SOC, you might as well charge as fast as
your charger allows. It won't hurt (or help) the batteries, but it gets you
charged faster. The main reason to limit current during this "bulk" phase is to
protect the charge and/or AC circuit breakers. The batteries don't care.
Once you get ove 80% SOC, the batteries become the limiting factor. That's when
the charger needs to slow down, to give them time to finish.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I'm always skeptical when someone comes along and says they have
some facts, but they arent going to post them on an open forum where them
might be useful to someone.
Usually this is because they DON'T have any facts and don't want to post
them where everyone can point out their errors.
I'd be happy to see someone prove me wrong this time, especially since I'm
currently building a vehicle that might be effected by these mysterious
regulations.
> I've seen this posted before on other sites... but no one had any
> specifics.
> If the US Gov't is considering restricting 3-wheel vehicles, I haven't
> been
> able to find it listed on any of their official sites or in Google.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 7:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
>
>
>> I believe you are wrong. Federal law doesnt care where the passenger
>> (if
>> any) sits. All it cares about is the number of wheels. Some state laws
>> are more restrictive, but that is at thed state level.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
MIKE WILLMON wrote:
> Here are some pics of a batch I built several months ago to play with.
> http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/Zener_Regs.pdf
That looks great, Mike!
I put the lamp in the center, with a 6" wire on each side of it to a terminal.
This gave me some flexibility, for example, to poke the lamps into holes in the
top of the battery box (though I didn't wind up doing so).
I use a much heavier duty ring terminal. I slip a piece of heat shrink over
each one (red for +, black for -).
--
Lee Hart
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Come on already you guys, we already know how dangerous gasoline engines can
be. Maybe this should best be discussed on the list about how to kill
yourself with an ICE. This is actually where it belongs and I hope they are
extremely successful :-)
Roderick Wilde
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
After 5 months of driving electric I am driving my gasser because I
don't have enough range. It looks like I have 3 batteries that are under
capacity and I had an idea today i wanted to run past you guys.
What if I swapped 1 of the weak batteries with the aux battery, It is
the same size and has some use on it, Then take the other two that are
weak and buddy pair those two only. I will loose 12V off my system
Voltage, but that is no problem.
Any reason that won't work?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hard to tell without any more details, but it sounds like your pack is
either dieing or cold.
If it's dieing, then your idea should work...for a week or two, then the
next battery or two (or three or....) will fall under capacity. If it's
dieing then run it into the ground, the batteries are toast anyway.
If it's cold, then you might be able to warm up the batteries and get a
bit more capacity. Styrofoam insulation should do the trick. Could be
that simply warming the pack up to 80+ degrees F will get back most of
your original range, without rearranging batteries.
> After 5 months of driving electric I am driving my gasser because I
> don't have enough range. It looks like I have 3 batteries that are under
> capacity and I had an idea today i wanted to run past you guys.
>
> What if I swapped 1 of the weak batteries with the aux battery, It is
> the same size and has some use on it, Then take the other two that are
> weak and buddy pair those two only. I will loose 12V off my system
> Voltage, but that is no problem.
>
> Any reason that won't work?
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well having owned the Escape Hybrid for 6 months, I can tell you that trip
length and temperature are a huge factor in hybrid efficiency.
What it boils down to is this: The ICE needs to be shutting down frequently
to meet - and if driven astutely, exceed EPA estimates. Unfortunately to
reduce both wear and emissions, the ICE simply isn't going to shut off until
it is adequately warmed up, so infrequent short trips in cooler weather are
going to fail to meet the estimate.
During the spring and fall with my wife ferrying the kids 5 miles each way
to school and back, she could routinely achieve over the 30 mpg estimate for
our AWD version. But whenever I drove it the two miles to work, the best
average economy I could get was 26 mpg even in the heat of summer, as the
ICE would not warm up enough for it to shutdown until nearly at work or
home. However, I was able to exceed 35 mpg on a regular basis taking my son
to soccer practice 8 miles away at the end of the work day before the
weather cooled off since the ICE would already be fairly well warmed up.
I've been able to exceed 40 mpg under even more ideal circumstances.
'Nuff about that I think . .
My understanding of the BMS in the Escape, and likely similarly in the
Prius, is that they have engineered the system to never charge past 80% or
discharge past 20%, basically never using more than 60% of their rated
capacity except in an emergency such as running out of gas. The real-time
display of battery SOC made a huge difference in being able to anticipate
and compensate for maximum efficiency however.
- Kip
----- Original Message -----
From: "Obrien, Haskell W." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 8:38 AM
Subject: RE: OT question for Prius owners
It's half EV. We're talking efficiency, and it applies just as much to
full on EVs. The prius has a nice BMS, and I'm curious to know how much
of the pack is getting killed during the lower mileage situations.
Ford actually had training sessions for their hybrid escape drivers.
There are quite a few driving techniques that will improve the mileage.
I almost bought a prius - but the dealer wouldn't take my offer. I found
that keeping an eye on the battery pack was pretty educational as far as
training myself to drive it better.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 8:34 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: OT question for Prius owners
My wife recently bought a new 2006 Prius. Recently she's been getting
concerned about the mileage
and is questioning whether her car is working right, or has Toyota been
selling us a bill of
goods. Now, I never expected to get the 55-60 mgp the sticker reported,
but sometimes the mileage
is in the low 40's. This is my wife driving, no hotrodding, country
driving, little highway.
But even more disconcerting is the disparity between the cars reported
mileage and actual milage.
The trip computer told us we got 49 mpg on the last tank full. But by
calculating it ourself, it's
closer to 40. That's almost a 25% error in the cars calculations, what
gives?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.26/594 - Release Date:
12/20/2006 3:54 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
Why are you keeping things a secret? Before any misinformation or innuendo
is published can you please clarify what your concerns with this vehicle?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: December 20, 2006 5:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
This info was not meant to be an open discussion, as I mentioned in the post
If you are contemplating the purchase of this vehicle you may contact me off
list as the issue relates to this model specifically.
Thanks
M
On Dec 20, 2006, at 4:50 PM, jerryd wrote:
>
> Hi Mark and All,
> First thing is states make up these laws for each
> state and the FDot has very loose laws now, basicly anything with 3
> wheels is a MC. Then from there states add more regs if they want, Fla
> follows the FedDOT mostly and almost anything goes as long as it goes
> 50 mph, has lights, horns and brakes and stuff isn't falling off it.
> The 50 mph minimum interstate speed, up from 40 mph in Fla and maybe
> FedDOT recently which is where the Zebra ZAP , ect could hit problems
> making them NEV's since that's really what they are under US law and
> they will not be safe at 50mph if one tries to increase their speeds.
> Some states have 1500 lb limits, Cal, some requires saddle seats,
> Texas and some like Ct don't allow 2f1r types at all but almost all
> states do.
> I'd like to hear as many on this list just what you
> heard Mark, which state or fed, off list or preferably on.
> Thanks,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>>
>> GWMobile wrote:
>>> Whooaaa
>>>
>>> Changing the 3 wheel rule would be HUGE.
>>>
>>> I can only assume some auto company lobbiests are hard at work
>>> trying to stop a budding home builder industry in its tracks.
>>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, MARK DUTKO wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wanted to give a warning to all who are considering
>>>> the purchase of a Zebra. I have been contemplating
>>>> this post but felt it would be in the best interest to
>>>> bring it to the attention of those interested to
>> provide them some more information on their potential
>>>> purchase decision. Without being too specific on the
>>>> list ( you may contact me off list) I can tell you
>>>> that there is a good possibility of the DOT
>> prohibiting the sale of this vehicle in the future and also
>>>> de- classifying any existing models as being registered
>>>> as a motorcycle as it does not meet the requirements
>>>> just because it has three wheels. The various issues
>>>> here and others I have not mentioned could result in a
>>>> vehicle that will not be able to be insured or
>> registered. I have no personal interest in this matter in
>>>> either direction but I can not sit back without
>>>> informing list members that a purchase of this vehicle
>>>> could be potentially risky. You may contact me
>>>> directly only if you are SERIOUSLY contemplating a purchase and I
>>>> will give you some further information.
>>>> M
>>>
>>>
>>> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes,
>>> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>>>
>>> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:24 PM 21/12/06 -0500, Martin K wrote:
James,
I understand that all of your other points are valid about low
efficiency and whatnot.
What voltage did you run the alternator at? At 60Hz it doesn't seem like
it would have much power. I don't know how many poles an alternator has
though.
They have a lot of poles, so it ran slowly - I can't remember how slowly,
from memory an alternator is something like 18 poles, so it would have been
running at something like 330RPM (here we are 50Hz). I think he tried 12V
delta from the transformer secondary then when he hadn't enough power star
connected to be around 20V, then cranked up the field volts and amps and
burnt out the field (field drew 4A or so @ 12V, IIRC Len ran it at
something like 10 or 15A trying to get decent power). We were
reconditioning alternators as part of what Lens' business did, and this was
a "theory says, lets' try" job, done with junk that was laid around. I
haven't worked with car alternators in nearly 20 years, so I'm no longer
familiar with them.
To get decent RPM (a few thousand RPM) you'd need to run the alternator
with several hundred hertz (about 500Hz if my memory of the number of poles
is correct) possibly as far as a couple of kHz, at at least 120 or maybe a
couple of hundred volts, but the materials that the stator is made from
will likely become very lossy at that frequency. This is starting to get
away from what I have experience with, and knowlege about.
This is one of those things that someone, somewhere has probably done, just
to prove a point ("said it couldn't be done, I showed 'em"), but that does
not mean it is a good solution, particularly for a full-size EV. You can
power a full size EV with a stack of small motors of any type, with enough
of them, but the practicalities of using, controlling and efficiency point
to one or two motors that are big enough to do the job.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:25 PM 17/12/06 -0500, steve clunn wrote:
> >
I would start with a 120 or 144 blown curtis not a working 36v golf cart
controller .
I'm keeping an eye out for a 24 to 48V (or higher, but I haven't seen a
higher voltage one for what I want to pay) controller to play with (cheap,
dead or alive) - if I can upgrade it to be able to do the planned 72V
trike, well and good, otherwise 48V to replace the SCR controller on my
forklift that won't come to full power and I don't know why (not a GE-EV1).
But I will take the advice and not try and turn a 12V controller into a
156V one.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks, sorry to interrupt, but please remember that this is a list for EVs.
The
Prius is NOT really an EV (unless it has been modified to plug in). This
thread is off topic. Please do not respond to or continue off-topic threads.
More importantly, there are many, many far better places to discuss the
Prius, places which are heavily populated by exceedingly knowledgable
people. One of the best I know of is the Prius Tech Yahoo Group :
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius_Technical_Stuff/
There is also endless discussion of Prius MPG on the Prius-2g group :
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Prius-2G/
Not to mention the interminable chatter about colors, accessories, trim,
interior options, tires, cleaning, collision repair, dealer experiences, and
every
other issue that might apply to every other modern gas-fueled car.
All the "hybrid" cars presently offered to the general public get all their
energy
from liquid fuel (gasoline). They are not EVs. They should be discussed on
the EVDL only in limited ways.
Converting them to plug hybrids? Fine. That's a whole cottage industry with
Prius, and at least one of our members is involved.
Converting them to pure battery EVs? Great! The Insight is a prime
candidate. Let's hear about your plans.
Using their principles to illustrate engineering that we can use in pure
battery
EVs? That's good too.
And let's talk about how we can borrow components from these cars to use
in our EVs.
But chat about Prius MPG has no place on the EVDL. Please kill this thread.
Thanks.
David
EV List Assistant Administrator (and Topic Cop ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Craigslist find:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/zip/252220681.html
See contact info below (copy of Craigslist posting)
BTW - SoMa means South of Market, the area between
Market street and the SF Bay, this is in SouthEast SF.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
Free Crown forklift (SOMA / south beach)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Date: 2006-12-21, 5:18PM PST
Free Crown forklift. Battery operated. Works
goes up to 11 feet and can move 1.5 tons easily
cALL STEVE AT 415-602-6181 Need to giveaway now.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think we're agreed that running an engine in an enclosed space,
burning charcoal for heat indoors, or a leaking furnace is a serious
situation and you should not mess around with it in any way. Duh. I
saw a pretty funny criticism of bad housing construction showing they'd
put a second story window not too far above and not too far away from an
exhaust vent coming off the garage. OK that one is a bad idea but I'm
not going to run screaming from the scene.
Never being near an engine is just a hysterical response. In that case,
never walk down the street. The CO of traffic may kill you. Of course
you should never own a house with a street in front either, and owning a
house on a corner with a stop sign is suicide. Just a few PPM and
you're history. We should apparently get rid of all gas generators too,
total national ban.
Danny
GWMobile wrote:
Umm,
You guys kind of miss the point. The difference between almost
instantly fatal is millions of parts .
The headache only shows up in a window so small that you can't depend
on it at all.
Never burn gasoline engines standing still.
Why are you guys trying to convince yourselves to do something so
dangerous?
Would you put a few drops of arsenic in you water and hope you can
detect symptoms before you die?
Don't burn gasoline engines unles they are in motion.
Never idle them in one place. The neighbor you may kill me!
Put your life in the hands of 1000 part percentage of the mix of co in
air that you can't control is just silly.
On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 3:36 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
Hey some real data!!!
Note the Headache.....
There's yer Sign!.
In all cases except the last and instantly fatal.
High flow O2 is what we were trained to do. AFTER we got them out of
the CO
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 1:33 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
>From a well-written and well-referenced Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
"Prolonged exposure to fresh air (or pure oxygen) is required for the
CO-tainted hemoglobin (carboxyhaemoglobin) to clear. Carbon monoxide
detectors for homes are now readily available and are increasingly
being
required by municipal building codes." (My parents have at least two
detectors in the home.)
"Hemoglobin acquires a bright red colour when converted to
carboxyhemoglobin, so a casualty of CO poisoning is described in
textbooks as looking pink-cheeked and healthy. However, this "classic"
cherry-red appearance is very uncommon - it has only been noted in
2% of
cases so care should be taken not to overlook the diagnosis even if
this
colour is not present." (So the blue color of blood is only in the
lack
of oxygen, such as in drowning.)
"- 35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight
hours of
constant exposure.
- 100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours.
- 200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours.
- 400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours.
- 800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45
minutes.
Insensible within two hours.
- 1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes.
Death in less than two hours.
- 3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
- 6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes.
Death
in less than 20 minutes.
- 12,800 ppm (1.28%) Death in less than three minutes."
"A significant controversy in the medical literature is whether or not
hyperbaric oxygen actually offers any extra benefits over normal high
flow oxygen in terms of increased survival or improved long term
outcomes...The authors suggested a large, well designed, externally
audited, multicentre trial to compare normal oxygen with hyperbaric
oxygen."
- Arthur
On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 12:59 -0800, GWMobile wrote:
> And another thing.
> Co is completely orderless.
>
> Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so
many
> people tragically die.
>
> YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
>
> You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if
you got
> to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any
red
> blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
>
> AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other
componenets
> of the smoke not the co.
>
>
> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > I don't buy this at all.
> >
> > CO is dangerous..But not that scarry..
> >
> > Even reasonable air flow is all you need.
> > I have run all sorts of power equipment and Had no issues,
Unless it
> > was in
> > a confined place with zero airflow.
> >
> > Clearly it matters how large the combustion is. Smoke of all
sorts has
> > CO in
> > it. Smokey camp fires, Brush fires, and such, But the airflow is
> > sufficient.
> > I don't know how many times I have gotten a headache from various
smoke
> > and
> > flames and engines, The only scarrey thing was a large trash
pump in a
> > basment 32 years ago In a hurricane in Pennsylviana.
> >
> > If you can smell exhaust, to be aware is the point. No sleeping
> > allowed
> >
> > Hey I started this thread.. and now we are in the Panic and Fear
> > compition.
> > Bull, everybody who works with power equipment knows what they
can and
> > can't
> > get away with.
> >
> > AND your assement of what to do with a CO victim is FLAT ASS
WRONG!
> >
> > You VERY quickly get them to fresh air.
> > Monitor vital signs,
> > Look for Blue lips or any other funny skin colors,
> > THEN call 911.
> > Note here get to fresh air BEFORE calling 911.
> >
> > The advanced resquer administers 02 at the Fastest rate
possible and
> > Calls
> > for support and transport.
> > After that he looks out for his own and other Resquers saftey and
shuts
> > off
> > the CO source and or leaves the sean to not become a victim
yourself.
> >
> > You can take a LOT of CO and still function if you plain have
to in
> > dire
> > circumstances.
> > You have to be personally aware of the signs and effects on
your own
> > body.
> >
> > It's not a simple death sentace... it prudence and experience.
> >
> > Your body DOES exchange the CO for C02 and 02 if it has time.
It's the
> > time
> > factor that most don't know about.
> > It's hours not minutes, and you feel sick for the most part of
a day.
> > It takes hours in a HyperBaric chamber with high O2 levels,
that we
all
> > hear
> > about, This is a life saver for sure. It saves the other wise
Dead.
> >
> > The walking Zombies.. just get them to fresh air... and help them
> > recover.
> > They will.. if they have not had too much.
> >
> > I have a just a tad of First Aid and training.. and years of
working
> > with
> > power equipment.. and a couple of close calls in my early Teens.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
