EV Digest 6235
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: I need to fix my EV
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Help id controller.
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: What is the potential for using mass produced car alternaters as
motors.
by Steven Ciciora <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: I need to fix my EV
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Excited about Excitation
by Bill Dennis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
have replaced several packs having driven Electric since '92. That
has taught me to be acutely aware of my pack's life. And I have
found, when the pack starts to lose range, replacing just a few
batteries is a costly temporary work-around. The true solution is
to order a new set of batteries and plan to replace your pack.
I have found US Batteries are the best bang-for-the-$. To find:
-a battery http://www.usbattery.com/pages/6vgolf.htm
-a dealer http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbdealers.htm
Once in the past, I decided to replace just the batteries that were
very dead to extend the life of my pack. I gave my pack a full
charge and after letting my pack sit for an hour, then I recorded
the surface voltage readings of each battery.
I found four batteries to replace, but the other batteries were
tired and at their end. Replacing those four batteries got me by
for a few weeks, but my pack still had a reduced range from all the
other tired batteries.
I found the best solution is to start making checks of your pack as
soon as the pack starts showing signs that it is tired or at the
end of its cycle life.
First make sure you are charging the pack correctly. Under charged
pack not only gives less range, it also prematurely ages the pack.
This is why I constantly ensure my finishing voltage matches the
outside temperature changes (when it is colder, the pack finishing
voltage goes up. See http://www.usbattery.com/pages/usbspecs.htm )
Once you know the pack is being charged properly, map out the
battery's voltage as I stated above. Also look for excessive water
use (dying batteries tend to use more water). When watering the
cells, if the electrolyte looks murky, or is churning up gray/black
muck, the cell is basically on its last leg.
If the pack is at its end, order a new pack and plan to change your
pack out ASAP. I like to plan to use a weekend to do the swap-out:
map the pack's cables on Friday night; pull the old batteries out
on Saturday morning and clean the battery racks/boxes Saturday
evening; then install the new batteries Sunday morning, and
re-cable the pack Sunday afternoon.
After a full charge, water your cells using distilled-water.
Remember that a new pack will need breaking in before you deeply
discharge them with a long trip. I go 10% of my range capacity,
recharge, then 15%, recharge, etc.).
You have the advantage of being able to drive other vehicle while
your EV is down. I hope you can replace your pack and get your EV
grin back :-)
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Can you help me id the controller on ebay auction id 190064023758 ?
It looks like it has a different connectos as the one in Curtis manuals...
thanks.
--
Eduardo K. |
http://www.carfun.cl | "World domination, now"
http://e.nn.cl | Linus Torvalds
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just thought I would comment on one statement that has been made on this
thread, "Texas and some like Ct don't allow 2f1r types at all but almost all
states do."
My wife recently purchased a 2f1r EV right here in Austin, Texas. It has been
registered, insured, inspected and she took her motorcycle license test in it.
The only thing difficult was dispersing the crowd of officers that wanted their
pictures taken with it. So, either Texas is unaware that they do not allow
such vehicles, or perhaps they don't really have a problem with them.
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:21 AM
Subject: RE: Zebra Purchase Warning
Mark,
Why are you keeping things a secret? Before any misinformation or innuendo
is published can you please clarify what your concerns with this vehicle?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
Sent: December 20, 2006 5:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
This info was not meant to be an open discussion, as I mentioned in the post
If you are contemplating the purchase of this vehicle you may contact me off
list as the issue relates to this model specifically.
Thanks
M
On Dec 20, 2006, at 4:50 PM, jerryd wrote:
>
> Hi Mark and All,
> First thing is states make up these laws for each
> state and the FDot has very loose laws now, basicly anything with 3
> wheels is a MC. Then from there states add more regs if they want, Fla
> follows the FedDOT mostly and almost anything goes as long as it goes
> 50 mph, has lights, horns and brakes and stuff isn't falling off it.
> The 50 mph minimum interstate speed, up from 40 mph in Fla and maybe
> FedDOT recently which is where the Zebra ZAP , ect could hit problems
> making them NEV's since that's really what they are under US law and
> they will not be safe at 50mph if one tries to increase their speeds.
> Some states have 1500 lb limits, Cal, some requires saddle seats,
> Texas and some like Ct don't allow 2f1r types at all but almost all
> states do.
> I'd like to hear as many on this list just what you
> heard Mark, which state or fed, off list or preferably on.
> Thanks,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>>
>> GWMobile wrote:
>>> Whooaaa
>>>
>>> Changing the 3 wheel rule would be HUGE.
>>>
>>> I can only assume some auto company lobbiests are hard at work
>>> trying to stop a budding home builder industry in its tracks.
>>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, MARK DUTKO wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wanted to give a warning to all who are considering
>>>> the purchase of a Zebra. I have been contemplating
>>>> this post but felt it would be in the best interest to
>>>> bring it to the attention of those interested to
>> provide them some more information on their potential
>>>> purchase decision. Without being too specific on the
>>>> list ( you may contact me off list) I can tell you
>>>> that there is a good possibility of the DOT
>> prohibiting the sale of this vehicle in the future and also
>>>> de- classifying any existing models as being registered
>>>> as a motorcycle as it does not meet the requirements
>>>> just because it has three wheels. The various issues
>>>> here and others I have not mentioned could result in a
>>>> vehicle that will not be able to be insured or
>> registered. I have no personal interest in this matter in
>>>> either direction but I can not sit back without
>>>> informing list members that a purchase of this vehicle
>>>> could be potentially risky. You may contact me
>>>> directly only if you are SERIOUSLY contemplating a purchase and I
>>>> will give you some further information.
>>>> M
>>>
>>>
>>> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes,
>>> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>>>
>>> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few years back at woodburn, I rode a go-cart that
ran on two automotive alternators. It had a
home-brew, analog controller, and controlled by a
joystick. I herd a rumor that it use to be a wireless
joystick?!? Anyway, talking with the builder, he said
he had trouble getting it to work, until he tried the
right alternator. I can't remember exactly what he
said, but I think it was ford alternators worked best
for him? It was a lot of fun, but not nearly as much
fun as Brian Hall's go-cart I rode around the hotel
parking lot. It had a single BLDC motor, much smaller
than just one of the other go-cart's alternators.
Much faster off the line, too.
- Steven Ciciora
--- James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 09:24 PM 21/12/06 -0500, Martin K wrote:
> >James,
> >I understand that all of your other points are
> valid about low
> >efficiency and whatnot.
> >What voltage did you run the alternator at? At 60Hz
> it doesn't seem like
> >it would have much power. I don't know how many
> poles an alternator has
> >though.
>
> They have a lot of poles, so it ran slowly - I can't
> remember how slowly,
> from memory an alternator is something like 18
> poles, so it would have been
> running at something like 330RPM (here we are 50Hz).
> I think he tried 12V
> delta from the transformer secondary then when he
> hadn't enough power star
> connected to be around 20V, then cranked up the
> field volts and amps and
> burnt out the field (field drew 4A or so @ 12V, IIRC
> Len ran it at
> something like 10 or 15A trying to get decent
> power). We were
> reconditioning alternators as part of what Lens'
> business did, and this was
> a "theory says, lets' try" job, done with junk that
> was laid around. I
> haven't worked with car alternators in nearly 20
> years, so I'm no longer
> familiar with them.
>
> To get decent RPM (a few thousand RPM) you'd need to
> run the alternator
> with several hundred hertz (about 500Hz if my memory
> of the number of poles
> is correct) possibly as far as a couple of kHz, at
> at least 120 or maybe a
> couple of hundred volts, but the materials that the
> stator is made from
> will likely become very lossy at that frequency.
> This is starting to get
> away from what I have experience with, and knowlege
> about.
>
> This is one of those things that someone, somewhere
> has probably done, just
> to prove a point ("said it couldn't be done, I
> showed 'em"), but that does
> not mean it is a good solution, particularly for a
> full-size EV. You can
> power a full size EV with a stack of small motors of
> any type, with enough
> of them, but the practicalities of using,
> controlling and efficiency point
> to one or two motors that are big enough to do the
> job.
>
> Regards
>
> [Technik] James
>
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip>"Texas and some like Ct
don't allow 2f1r types at all but almost all states do."
Jerry,
I know of at least one sparrow and a few other 3 wheelers here in texas. In
fact I am in Texas and was hoping to get a 2F1R FreedomEV?? Where did you hear
that Texas won't allow them?
I know Connecticut was an issue which is why I never got a sparrow while I live
there. The whole no enclosed motorcycle a 3 wheeler is a motorcycle issue up
there, doesn't mean you couldn't have an unenclosed 3 wheeler though.
----- Original Message ----
From: jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 6:50:42 PM
Subject: Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
Hi Mark and All,
First thing is states make up these laws
for each state and the FDot has very loose laws now, basicly
anything with 3 wheels is a MC. Then from there states add
more regs if they want, Fla follows the FedDOT mostly and
almost anything goes as long as it goes 50 mph, has lights,
horns and brakes and stuff isn't falling off it. The 50 mph
minimum interstate speed, up from 40 mph in Fla and maybe
FedDOT recently which is where the Zebra ZAP , ect could hit
problems making them NEV's since that's really what they are
under US law and they will not be safe at 50mph if one tries
to increase their speeds. Some states have 1500 lb limits,
Cal, some requires saddle seats, Texas and some like Ct
don't allow 2f1r types at all but almost all states do.
I'd like to hear as many on this list just
what you heard Mark, which state or fed, off list or
preferably on.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
>
>GWMobile wrote:
>> Whooaaa
>>
>> Changing the 3 wheel rule would be HUGE.
>>
>> I can only assume some auto company lobbiests are hard at
>> work trying to stop a budding home builder industry in
>> its tracks.
>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, MARK DUTKO wrote:
>>
>>> I wanted to give a warning to all who are considering
>>> the purchase of a Zebra. I have been contemplating
>>> this post but felt it would be in the best interest to
>>> bring it to the attention of those interested to
>provide them some more information on their potential
>>> purchase decision. Without being too specific on the
>>> list ( you may contact me off list) I can tell you
>>> that there is a good possibility of the DOT
>prohibiting the sale of this vehicle in the future and also
>>> de- classifying any existing models as being registered
>>> as a motorcycle as it does not meet the requirements
>>> just because it has three wheels. The various issues
>>> here and others I have not mentioned could result in a
>>> vehicle that will not be able to be insured or
>registered. I have no personal interest in this matter in
>>> either direction but I can not sit back without
>>> informing list members that a purchase of this vehicle
>>> could be potentially risky. You may contact me
>>> directly only if you are SERIOUSLY contemplating a
>>>purchase and I will give you some further information.
>>> M
>>
>>
>> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes,
>> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>>
>> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>>
>>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So, either Texas is unaware
> that they do not allow such vehicles, or perhaps they don't really have a
> problem with them.
I don't know whether they do or don't, but I wouldn't be surprised if the
cops didn't know either.
Here in Arizona, none of the cops I talked to were aware that you needed a
drivers license to ride a motorized bicycle/moped (prior to the new
federal regs)
Not only that, but those that did know about mopeds, didn't know what the
speed limit was for them.
When I registered my electric truck, they tried to charge me the "Clean
Air Tax" because "everyone has to pay that". Well, everyone that doesn't
drive an "electric or solar powered vehicle" has to pay it.
To be fair, the vehicle code for any given state is huge, you can't really
expect beat cops and DMV clerks to know the details on the more esoteric
parts of it.
If it is in fact not legal, and you got it registered anyway, good on you!
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, I think you guys are reading out of Jerry's intended context here.
I believe he is saying that Texas requires a saddle, and CT doesn't allow
2F1R.
Sloppy punctuation looks to be the problem here.
> <snip>"Texas and some like Ct
> don't allow 2f1r types at all but almost all states do."
>
> Jerry,
> I know of at least one sparrow and a few other 3 wheelers here in
> texas. In fact I am in Texas and was hoping to get a 2F1R FreedomEV??
> Where did you hear that Texas won't allow them?
> I know Connecticut was an issue which is why I never got a sparrow while I
> live there. The whole no enclosed motorcycle a 3 wheeler is a motorcycle
> issue up there, doesn't mean you couldn't have an unenclosed 3 wheeler
> though.
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 6:50:42 PM
> Subject: Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
>
>
> Hi Mark and All,
> First thing is states make up these laws
> for each state and the FDot has very loose laws now, basicly
> anything with 3 wheels is a MC. Then from there states add
> more regs if they want, Fla follows the FedDOT mostly and
> almost anything goes as long as it goes 50 mph, has lights,
> horns and brakes and stuff isn't falling off it. The 50 mph
> minimum interstate speed, up from 40 mph in Fla and maybe
> FedDOT recently which is where the Zebra ZAP , ect could hit
> problems making them NEV's since that's really what they are
> under US law and they will not be safe at 50mph if one tries
> to increase their speeds. Some states have 1500 lb limits,
> Cal, some requires saddle seats, Texas and some like Ct
> don't allow 2f1r types at all but almost all states do.
> I'd like to hear as many on this list just
> what you heard Mark, which state or fed, off list or
> preferably on.
> Thanks,
> Jerry Dycus
>
>>
>>GWMobile wrote:
>>> Whooaaa
>>>
>>> Changing the 3 wheel rule would be HUGE.
>>>
>>> I can only assume some auto company lobbiests are hard at
>>> work trying to stop a budding home builder industry in
>>> its tracks.
>>> On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, MARK DUTKO wrote:
>>>
>>>> I wanted to give a warning to all who are considering
>>>> the purchase of a Zebra. I have been contemplating
>>>> this post but felt it would be in the best interest to
>>>> bring it to the attention of those interested to
>>provide them some more information on their potential
>>>> purchase decision. Without being too specific on the
>>>> list ( you may contact me off list) I can tell you
>>>> that there is a good possibility of the DOT
>>prohibiting the sale of this vehicle in the future and also
>>>> de- classifying any existing models as being registered
>>>> as a motorcycle as it does not meet the requirements
>>>> just because it has three wheels. The various issues
>>>> here and others I have not mentioned could result in a
>>>> vehicle that will not be able to be insured or
>>registered. I have no personal interest in this matter in
>>>> either direction but I can not sit back without
>>>> informing list members that a purchase of this vehicle
>>>> could be potentially risky. You may contact me
>>>> directly only if you are SERIOUSLY contemplating a
>>>>purchase and I will give you some further information.
>>>> M
>>>
>>>
>>> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes,
>>> globalwarming and the melting poles.
>>>
>>> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jeff Shanab
> After 5 months of driving electric, I am driving my gasser because I
> don't have enough range. It looks like I have 3 batteries that are under
> capacity and I had an idea today i wanted to run past you guys.
>
>What if I swapped 1 of the weak batteries with the aux battery? It is
>the same size and has some use on it.
I did this on my EV. I bought twelve batteries, and used 11 for propulsion and
1 for my accessory battery. Years later, when one of my propulsion batteries
got weak, I swapped it with the accessory battery. The weak battery was still
good enough to work in the less stressful accessory battery position, and the
replacement propulsion battery was the same type and same age as the rest of
the propulsion batteries, so it stayed in balance better.
BUT... I also had a battery balancing system (see below).
> Then take the other two that are weak and buddy pair those two only. I will
> loose 12V off my system voltage, but that is no problem. Any reason that
> won't work?
If you don't have a battery balancing system, then you are depending on all
batteries to be the same. The more they differ, the more problems you have.
When driving, the weakest battery gets more deeply discharged, which further
damages it. On charge, the best batteries reach "full" first, and then are
damaged by overcharging while waiting for the rest to catch up. These effects
make the differences between batteries get even worse, leading to further
failures.
Doing what you propose will work for a while. But the two paralleled batteries
will not reach "full" during charging at the same time as the rest. While
driving, they will not discharge at the same depth of discharge as the rest. So
in general, they will not be at the same state of charge
To make this work, you'd have to add a separate charger for the two parallelled
batteries. This charger would have to be set up to match whatever the main
charger is doing for the rest of the cells, so they all end up at the same
state of charge each day.
If you *do* have a balancing system, it is possible to hold mismatched
batteries in balance. This extends battery life, by letting you keep using
batteries that would otherwise not pull together as a team. The balancer needs
to be able to handle enough power to overcome the differences betwee the best
and worst battery. For example, if your best battery is 100ah and your worst is
80ah, then the balancer needs to be able to supply up to 20ah of difference.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I need some schooling about regen and excitation in series DC motors.
My question is this: Let's say you're going down road and want to use
regen to slow down. For this discussion, let's disregard residual
magnetism unless it somehow applies to the answer. If you disconnect
from the batteries and hook a resistor across the whole motor, will
electric current flow through the resistor? Or do you need to somehow
apply a little voltage across the field to get the current flowing
initially?
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ken and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006 08:41:42 -0500
>Just thought I would comment on one statement that has been
>made on this thread, "Texas and some like Ct don't allow
>2f1r types at all but almost all states do."
Texas requires 'saddle' seats and some other stuff
but they do allow 2f1r which I believe was fairly clear in
the whole post.
The point is each state is different but the thread
was about importing them to the US where I think it's stuff
like Fed DOT approved brake lines, ect that is the problem.
Jerry Dycus
My wife
>recently purchased a 2f1r EV right here in Austin, Texas.
>It has been registered, insured, inspected and she took her
>motorcycle license test in it. The only thing difficult
>was dispersing the crowd of officers that wanted their
>pictures taken with it. So, either Texas is unaware that
>they do not allow such vehicles, or perhaps they don't
>really have a problem with them.
>
>Ken
>
>
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: [email protected]
>Sent: Thu, 21 Dec 2006 12:21 AM
>Subject: RE: Zebra Purchase Warning
>
>
>Mark,
>
>Why are you keeping things a secret? Before any
>misinformation or innuendo is published can you please
>clarify what your concerns with this vehicle?
>
>
>
>
>Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
>see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
>---------------------------------------------------
>"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points
>out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds
>could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who
>is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and
>sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes
>up short again and again, because there is no effort
>without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great
>enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a
>worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the
>triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he
>fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his
>place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who
>knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of MARK DUTKO
>Sent: December 20, 2006 5:14 PM
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: Re: Zebra Purchase Warning
>
>This info was not meant to be an open discussion, as I
>mentioned in the post If you are contemplating the purchase
>of this vehicle you may contact me off list as the issue
>relates to this model specifically.
>
>
>Thanks
>
>
>M
>
>
>On Dec 20, 2006, at 4:50 PM, jerryd wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi Mark and All,
>> First thing is states make up these
>> laws for each state and the FDot has very loose laws now
>> , basicly anything with 3 wheels is a MC. Then from
>> there states add more regs if they want, Fla follows the
>> FedDOT mostly and almost anything goes as long as it goes
> 50 mph, has lights, horns and brakes and stuff isn't
>> falling off it. The 50 mph minimum interstate speed, up
>> from 40 mph in Fla and maybe FedDOT recently which is
>> where the Zebra ZAP , ect could hit problems making them
>> NEV's since that's really what they are under US law and
>they will not be safe at 50mph if one tries to increase
>> their speeds. Some states have 1500 lb limits, Cal, some
>> requires saddle seats, Texas and some like Ct don't
>> allow 2f1r types at all but almost all states do.
>> I'd like to hear as many on this list just
>> what you heard Mark, which state or fed, off list or
>> preferably on. Thanks,
>> Jerry Dycus
>>
>>>
>>> GWMobile wrote:
>>>> Whooaaa
>>>>
>>>> Changing the 3 wheel rule would be HUGE.
>>>>
>>>> I can only assume some auto company lobbiests are hard
>>>> at work trying to stop a budding home builder
>>>> industry in its tracks. On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm,
>>>>MARK DUTKO wrote:
>>>>> I wanted to give a warning to all who are considering
>>>>> the purchase of a Zebra. I have been contemplating
>>>>> this post but felt it would be in the best interest
>>>>> to bring it to the attention of those interested to
>>> provide them some more information on their potential
>>>>> purchase decision. Without being too specific on the
>>>>> list ( you may contact me off list) I can tell you
>>>>> that there is a good possibility of the DOT
>>> prohibiting the sale of this vehicle in the future and
>>>>> also de- classifying any existing models as being
>>>>> registered as a motorcycle as it does not meet the
>>>>> requirements just because it has three wheels. The
>>>>> various issues here and others I have not mentioned
>>>>> could result in a vehicle that will not be able to
>>> be insured or registered. I have no personal interest in
>>>>> this matter in either direction but I can not sit
>>>>> back without informing list members that a purchase
>>>>> of this vehicle could be potentially risky. You may
>>>>> contact me directly only if you are SERIOUSLY
>>>>> contemplating a purchase and I will give you some
>>>>> further information. M
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes
>>>> , globalwarming and the melting poles.
>>>>
>>>> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake
>>>>images.
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>___________________________________________________________
>_____________ Check out the new AOL. Most comprehensive
>set of free safety and security tools, free access to
>millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free
>AOL Mail and more.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Agreed all.
But in the field you can't directly measure Carboxyhemoglobin..
You administer O2 and get good air, and if you can CALL 911.
In the boonies or in our case... 911 won't help much since the trucks can't
drive through a Dozzen 2nd growth Fir trees.
Get em away from the CO source and keep in mind that they may be messed up
for hours.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
> [Despite being OT, I feel this discussion is relevant enough to warrant
> a proper understanding and conclusion.]
>
>
> GWMobile wrote (what's your name??):
> > Of course co is heavier than air so if you are in a low point or say
> > your child is in the basement that happens to be vented to the side of
> > the house next to the driveway the he will be dead before you even know
> > a thing.
>
> Whaaaat? Heavier than air? Only if you're in pure nitrogen (and then
> you've got other problems, like not being able to breathe anyway).
>
>
> >From a DOE "Ask a scientist" archive:
> http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03364.htm
>
> "Add them up for the molecular weights of pure gases:
> H2=(1+1)=2, very light
> He=(4)=4, very light
> N2=(14+14)=28, about neutral
> O2=(16+16)=32, slightly heavy
> CO2=(12+16+16)=44, heavy
> CO=(12+16)=28, about neutral
> CH4=(12+4*1)=18, light (majority part of natural gas)
> H2O=(2*1+16)=18, light (steam)
> C2H6=(2*12+6*1)=30, about neutral (minority part of natural gas)
> C3H8=(8+3*12)=42, heavy (propane)
> C4H10=(10+4*12)=58, (butane)
> C5H12=(12+5*12)=70, pentane, lightest part of gasoline"
>
> "For mixed gases just take a proportionate average:
> Air is 80% N2 + 20% O2.
> Air=0.8(28)+0.2(32)=29 (exactly neutral, by definition)"
>
>
> So CO is slightly lighter than air. From the same page:
>
> "High or low in a room; It makes no difference where you put the
> detector -- but not because carbon monoxide and air have approximately
> the same density. Both are gases and as a result, diffusion alone and
> the entropy effect will take care of mixing them. Any convection
> currents and/or forced-air turbulence present will also enable the gases
> to mix and affect the detector."
>
> "It is popularly misconceived that light (low-density) gases will
> somehow float atop heavy (higher density) gases. Indeed, if the higher
> density gas was admitted low in the room, and done so in a manner that
> would not cause much mixing, it would take a while for the gases to
> become thoroughly mixed by the mechanisms mentioned above. Even so, they
> would eventually mix."
>
> "That said, since time to detection may be of the essence, and in
> circumstances where the contaminant gas (such as radon -- a gas of very
> high density) gets into the room through entry points more or less at
> floor level, where one puts the detector can become important."
>
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > The light headedness, the headache the blue lips and other Cyanotic
> > skin effects are your signs and symptoms. You can have a nasty dose
> > and still live through it.
>
> As I referenced, blue lips will only occur due to a lack of oxygen. Of
> course, CO is caused from combustion due to a lack of oxygen - but this
> may not necessarily mean the entire area is free of oxygen. Blue lips
> apply if your building is on fire, but not if your furnace is leaking.
> They are a good thing to note in a victim, but they do not indicate that
> someone is surely poisoned. (So a lack of discoloration means the
> person could still be poisoned! A measurement of carboxyhemoglobin
> should be taken instead; above 25%, the person is at risk.)
>
> - Arthur
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Because GW.. we have used ICE power equipment for years, and have no lethal
effects.
Only very rarley does anyone get in trouble and even fewer people get
Killed.
You clearly are over stating the risks.
In all but very confined spaces and limited air flow is is very hard to get
a lethal dose of CO.
Not a chance.. I know the risks, I have done this kind of stuff for years.
Idle a car is no danger to anyone.
UNless it's locked up in a garage and your neighbor is locked in there with
it.
As somebody pointed out, With a modern Catalyitc emmisions system It might
not even kill you then!!
Why are you so Afraid??
What disaster have you come so close to that makes you Parnoid about CO???
That's the story I want to hear.
never burn Gas engines standing still??
What baloney.. all contractor generators, power saws and chain saws are
lethal??
Come on GW...Get a life!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
> Umm,
>
> You guys kind of miss the point. The difference between almost instantly
> fatal is millions of parts .
> The headache only shows up in a window so small that you can't depend on
> it at all.
>
> Never burn gasoline engines standing still.
>
> Why are you guys trying to convince yourselves to do something so
> dangerous?
>
> Would you put a few drops of arsenic in you water and hope you can
> detect symptoms before you die?
>
> Don't burn gasoline engines unles they are in motion.
> Never idle them in one place. The neighbor you may kill me!
>
> Put your life in the hands of 1000 part percentage of the mix of co in
> air that you can't control is just silly.
>
>
> On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 3:36 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
> > Hey some real data!!!
> >
> > Note the Headache.....
> > There's yer Sign!.
> > In all cases except the last and instantly fatal.
> >
> > High flow O2 is what we were trained to do. AFTER we got them out of
> > the CO
> >
> > Madman
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 1:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
> >
> >
> >> >From a well-written and well-referenced Wikipedia entry:
> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_monoxide_poisoning
> >>
> >> "Prolonged exposure to fresh air (or pure oxygen) is required for the
> >> CO-tainted hemoglobin (carboxyhaemoglobin) to clear. Carbon monoxide
> >> detectors for homes are now readily available and are increasingly
> >> being
> >> required by municipal building codes." (My parents have at least two
> >> detectors in the home.)
> >>
> >> "Hemoglobin acquires a bright red colour when converted to
> >> carboxyhemoglobin, so a casualty of CO poisoning is described in
> >> textbooks as looking pink-cheeked and healthy. However, this "classic"
> >> cherry-red appearance is very uncommon - it has only been noted in 2%
> >> of
> >> cases so care should be taken not to overlook the diagnosis even if
> >> this
> >> colour is not present." (So the blue color of blood is only in the
> >> lack
> >> of oxygen, such as in drowning.)
> >>
> >> "- 35 ppm (0.0035%) Headache and dizziness within six to eight hours
> >> of
> >> constant exposure.
> >> - 100 ppm (0.01%) Slight headache in two to three hours.
> >> - 200 ppm (0.02%) Slight headache within two to three hours.
> >> - 400 ppm (0.04%) Frontal headache within one to two hours.
> >> - 800 ppm (0.08%) Dizziness, nausea, and convulsions within 45
> >> minutes.
> >> Insensible within two hours.
> >> - 1,600 ppm (0.16%) Headache, dizziness, and nausea within 20 minutes.
> >> Death in less than two hours.
> >> - 3,200 ppm (0.32%) Headache, dizziness and nausea in five to ten
> >> minutes. Death within 30 minutes.
> >> - 6,400 ppm (0.64%) Headache and dizziness in one to two minutes.
> >> Death
> >> in less than 20 minutes.
> >> - 12,800 ppm (1.28%) Death in less than three minutes."
> >>
> >> "A significant controversy in the medical literature is whether or not
> >> hyperbaric oxygen actually offers any extra benefits over normal high
> >> flow oxygen in terms of increased survival or improved long term
> >> outcomes...The authors suggested a large, well designed, externally
> >> audited, multicentre trial to compare normal oxygen with hyperbaric
> >> oxygen."
> >>
> >> - Arthur
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, 2006-12-20 at 12:59 -0800, GWMobile wrote:
> >> > And another thing.
> >> > Co is completely orderless.
> >> >
> >> > Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so
> >> many
> >> > people tragically die.
> >> >
> >> > YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
> >> >
> >> > You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if
> >> you got
> >> > to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any
> >> red
> >> > blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
> >> >
> >> > AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other
> >> componenets
> >> > of the smoke not the co.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Wed, 20 Dec 2006 3:17 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
> >> > > I don't buy this at all.
> >> > >
> >> > > CO is dangerous..But not that scarry..
> >> > >
> >> > > Even reasonable air flow is all you need.
> >> > > I have run all sorts of power equipment and Had no issues, Unless
> >> it
> >> > > was in
> >> > > a confined place with zero airflow.
> >> > >
> >> > > Clearly it matters how large the combustion is. Smoke of all
> >> sorts has
> >> > > CO in
> >> > > it. Smokey camp fires, Brush fires, and such, But the airflow is
> >> > > sufficient.
> >> > > I don't know how many times I have gotten a headache from various
> > smoke
> >> > > and
> >> > > flames and engines, The only scarrey thing was a large trash pump
> >> in a
> >> > > basment 32 years ago In a hurricane in Pennsylviana.
> >> > >
> >> > > If you can smell exhaust, to be aware is the point. No sleeping
> >> > > allowed
> >> > >
> >> > > Hey I started this thread.. and now we are in the Panic and Fear
> >> > > compition.
> >> > > Bull, everybody who works with power equipment knows what they
> >> can and
> >> > > can't
> >> > > get away with.
> >> > >
> >> > > AND your assement of what to do with a CO victim is FLAT ASS
> >> WRONG!
> >> > >
> >> > > You VERY quickly get them to fresh air.
> >> > > Monitor vital signs,
> >> > > Look for Blue lips or any other funny skin colors,
> >> > > THEN call 911.
> >> > > Note here get to fresh air BEFORE calling 911.
> >> > >
> >> > > The advanced resquer administers 02 at the Fastest rate possible
> >> and
> >> > > Calls
> >> > > for support and transport.
> >> > > After that he looks out for his own and other Resquers saftey and
> > shuts
> >> > > off
> >> > > the CO source and or leaves the sean to not become a victim
> >> yourself.
> >> > >
> >> > > You can take a LOT of CO and still function if you plain have to
> >> in
> >> > > dire
> >> > > circumstances.
> >> > > You have to be personally aware of the signs and effects on your
> >> own
> >> > > body.
> >> > >
> >> > > It's not a simple death sentace... it prudence and experience.
> >> > >
> >> > > Your body DOES exchange the CO for C02 and 02 if it has time.
> >> It's the
> >> > > time
> >> > > factor that most don't know about.
> >> > > It's hours not minutes, and you feel sick for the most part of a
> >> day.
> >> > > It takes hours in a HyperBaric chamber with high O2 levels, that
> >> we
> > all
> >> > > hear
> >> > > about, This is a life saver for sure. It saves the other wise
> >> Dead.
> >> > >
> >> > > The walking Zombies.. just get them to fresh air... and help them
> >> > > recover.
> >> > > They will.. if they have not had too much.
> >> > >
> >> > > I have a just a tad of First Aid and training.. and years of
> >> working
> >> > > with
> >> > > power equipment.. and a couple of close calls in my early Teens.
> >> > >
> >> > > Rich Rudman
> >> > > Manzanita Micro
> >>
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Dude.. We have some friends of mine, and this list that are staying
warm and fed.
Because they have a Generator powering thier house at this very moment.
That's why!!
And we care about our Fellow EVers and most if us Racers have pretty good
gensets to charge EVs at remote sites.
Hence we have the Skills and the means to help our Fellow EVers and
customers and friends, in times of weather related disasters.
Got It??
MADman
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
> Yes why are people posting things about co and idleing gas engines
> anyway.
>
> Electricity is safe.
> Leave the smelly silent killer stuff to the gasoline mailing lists.
>
>
> On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 3:36 pm, Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 20, 2006 12:59 PM
> > Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
> >
> >
> >> And another thing.
> >> Co is completely orderless.
> >>
> >> Your advice is EXCATLY the wrong thing to say and exactly why so many
> >> people tragically die.
> >>
> >> YOU GET NO WAENING. You can't RUn for fresh air when you feel woozy.
> >>
> >> You don't have any red blood cells left at that pont and even if you
> >> got
> >> to fresh air you would still suffacate because you don't have any red
> >> blood cells left to take up the oxygen.
> >>
> >> AND YOU DON'T FEEL WOOZY. You got a headache from some other
> >> componenets
> >> of the smoke not the co.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Yer full of it...
> >
> > Been there done that. You feel like crap, and have many signs and
> > symptoms.
> > Any fool knows that exhaust of any kind can and does contain CO
> >
> > Plan accordingly.
> >
> > Pure CO is not seen by anyone outside of a Lab or test cell. CO from
> > gensets
> > and Barbies Smells of Pistons and Kingsford.
> >
> > Your do get warnings..LOTs of them.
> > Pay attention to them and Live
> >
> > Get off your "The world is going to end!"... it makes me sick.
> >
> > I deal with this kind of stuff day in and out... So does anyone that
> > works
> > with power equipment.
> >
> > Square your hat and shoulders and get on with life.
> > And lets get off this Thread since it's no longer gaining us anything.
> >
> > Madman
>
> www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
> and the melting poles.
>
> www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "GWMobile" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 6:10 PM
Subject: Re: OT - 1.3 Million WO Electricity - now NO GAS
> Blue lips are not a sign of co posioning.
>
> That is wrong. You weren't getting co poision if you had blue lips.
> Co poisioning is not the save as oxygen depravation.
>
> Fresh air doesn't cure co poisioning.
> Your blood cells don't give up the co once attached. So getting into
> fresh air doenst make your blood absorb more oxtgen. You have to grow
> more blood
> Cells which takes days.
Nope not true.
It takes hours and the CO is released but slowly. A day later .. pretty much
no problem.
Come on man if you are going to Play CO safety NUT.. read your first aid,
and get some real knowledge about it.
Your lips may or may not turn blue.. but they sure do feel it!!!
Been there done that!.. Lived to tell the story.
Agreed end the thread.
Madman
--- End Message ---
