EV Digest 6255
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Controllers
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Controllers
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: How much flex in battery interconnects
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Series-Parallel batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Controllers
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Pulse Charger follow up
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EVs in Russia
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Series-Parallel Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: Pulse Charger follow up
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: How much flex in battery interconnects
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Series-Parallel Batteries
by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Series parallel batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: EV Milestones for 2006
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Pulse Charger follow up
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re:Current Eliminator news
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Final tally: 2.3 years; 7,128 miles before murder. New strategies for
next USB pack
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: How much flex in battery interconnects
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Pulse Charger follow up
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Series parallel batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Considering Warp11 for 85 MR2 Direct Drive
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AltairNano Completes ORDER to Phoenix Motorcar
by Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re:Current Eliminator news
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
G'day Eduardo
At 08:56 PM 29/12/06 -0300, Eduardo K. wrote:
I have the car. I know where to get the motor.
What sort of motor?
I am having second thoughts with the controller.
I really want to build my own. Am I two crazy to plan to get a cheap
48/72 volt controller just to get the car running and then try and build
my own controller? I know just enough about controllers to get in trouble,
but have access to a willing to help friend.
I know I will never be able to build zilla, I just want to build something
simple around a PIC and a 400 amp IGBT...
I looked very hard at building a controller a year or four ago, even built
a few low power prototypes. If you want to build a 400A 75% duty cycle
controller you will need 800 to 1000A worth of power devices. If you are
going to be under 200VDC maximum (i.e. below 156V battery) then you are
best off to use MosFets or MosFet modules. For the home builder the way to
go seems to be two or three modules that can share the full load, but each
module individually can handle the pulse load (so if your gate drives are
not identical you are less likely to blow a device). Careful layout and
buss bar design should minimise blowup risk. A PIC by itself is unlikely to
be capable of the within-pulse-cycle current limiting, so you'd use the PIC
for average current limit and normal throttle control, but add a discrete
circuit that takes care of instantaneous current limiting, that needs to be
fast and noise immune. That, or you rake your device size up and let your
PIC take care of average current whilst the peaks are horrible. Three 600A
modules in parallel should survive that treatment in a 400A system. Fins
them surplus on Ebay and you should be able to do it cheaper than a
secondhand controller - but only if you consider your time as hobby, not
with value.
Building your own controller is a tradeoff of engineering - yours or the
power device designers. People like Otmar who builds the Zilla controllers
have put a huge amount into engineering development, and select matched
sets of relatively economic devices from stock lots of thousands - placing
the value on their engineering rather than the power device designer. For
the home-builder who wants to build their own controller, you have a choice
- design and build a controller that uses the power devices right to their
useable limit, and by the time you have the design useable, you have gone
through a number of re-designs and blown up that many devices you can fill
a large coffee can. But you only want one controller, so that way is not
economic. So you turn to the power device engineers' skill, and select a
device that only needs two or three devices that combined are very
conservatively rated, and build something using conservative methods that
will (should) work first time.
If you want to design yourself a controller, there is the EVtech discussion
list that was set up for this reason.
Anybody want to sell a controller?
72V Alltrax controllers are onEbay all the time, new. Frustratingly there
have been quite a few Curtis controllers in the 36/48V 400A size that are
on Ebay, but the seller won't use PayPal so for anyone outside USA it is
almost impossible to get payment to the seller in time. I'm looking for a
36 or 48V Curtis to play with to see if I can upgrade it to 72V (100V or
better devices) for my Trike project that is now well underway. A faulty
Curtis controller was on Ebay here in Aus recently, that *FAULTY* sold for
more than the working ones that have sold in America!
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Crazy, just like myself. I'm building a 400 Amp IGBT based controller
>as well. Info here www.electric-lemon.com
I'm a bit crazy, too. I'm putting together a 300A IGBT based controller
except that it's a bit different then average - it's for an AC induction
or brushless DC motor so it uses three half-bridge IGBT modules.
IRMCK201 controller IC to take care of current control, PWM's, that
kind of thing, and a PIC18F2480 for a host processor. HCPL316's for
IGBT drive and optical isolation, HAIS-150's for current sensing. Since
it's for an AC drive, it'll do regenerative braking 'for free' - no
added components needed. IGBT's aren't as efficient as MOSFET's for low
voltages (<150V or so) - my system is right on the borderline at 168V.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim wrote
> The braid is simply finely stranded wire without the insulation molded to it.
> Similar cross section sizes should give similar electrical results. I.E. 00
> worth of braid should be the same performance as 00 wire. Along the same
> line of thought; if you have 00 wire why couldn't you make interconnects from
> it and simply slice the insulation along its length to give it more
> flexibility?? Or whatever gauge of wire you happen to be using....
>
> --
> Stay Charged!
> Hump
According to the chart at http://www.alphawire.com/pages/159.cfm a Tinned
Copper Flat Braid that is 1 3/4" x .080" has 1248 wires that are 30 AWG and is
the equivalent of 2/0 copper cable and will carry a max current of 280 amps (no
voltage or distance given)
According to
https://weldingsupply.securesites.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?Next::1:UNDEF:OR:terms::PA,
2/0 Welding Cable is made from 30 gauge copper strands and at 600V has a
capacity of 400 Amps for a 50 ft length.
So it looks like welding cable will carry more amps...
Check out the cable prices, seems pretty good to me, even the orange 2/0 at
$2.76 per foot, min 25 feet.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If we ignore efficiency:
Power in = power out
Power = Volts * Amps
Voltage out = Voltage in * Pulse Percentage on time
So 100% duration; V out = V In & Amps out = Amps in
50% Duration; V out = V In / 2 & Amps out = Amps in * 2
remember power in = power out
25% Duration; V out = V in / 4 & Amps out = Amps in * 2
Also, for a given RPM and mechanical load on a DC motor, the voltage and
current (at the motor) will be the same regardless of how you get it to
the motor.
So reducing the input voltage by 1/2 and doubling the input current gains
you basically nothing. Yes the input current is higher, but the output
current is the same.
To get the same RPM you need the same effective voltage at the motor so
you'd need twice the pulse duration. Same voltage out means same current
out (as you'd get without battery switching).
You appear to be working on an older SCR controller, does it have
freewheeling diodes? Are you using low ESR input capacitors?
Without the caps and diode(s) you won't get the current multiplication.
Also, the thyristor/SCR has basically a fixed voltage drop (ok it
increases a bit as it gets hot). THis means that if you reduce the input
voltage, you effective INCREASE the percentage of power lost in the
thyristor.
I.e. if your battery voltage is 70V, the SCR drops 1% (ignoring switching
losses)
switch the batteries to 1/2 voltage (35V) and your SCR now drops 2%.
> I realise I only told you half the story, for the full picture I'm
> building
> a Thyristor PWM controller, because I already have everything I need for
> that, and was wondering if there was a direct benefit to switching to
> higher
> current-lower voltage for smaller pulse durations, it seemed to stand out
> that
> the smaller pulses woudl provide more torque because the current was
> higher. It
> sounds almost the same as saying that a longer PWM pulse would do the same
> thing....but does it ? If I'm looking for torque isn't it current that
> gets
> things going ?
>
> Lee Hart replied.......
> <Roland is right that the contacts arc. Whether this causes a "lot" of
> <maintenance depends on how often you switch them. Contactors built <for
> <this service are designed to switch their full rated current and voltage
> <for 100,000 cycles. This is many years for a typical EV that is driven
> <perhaps 1 hour a day.
>
>
> I'll watch for the contactor arcing if I need. I'll be working the PWM
> directly so I could time the contactor changeover to occur in a non-pwm
> period....actually lose a few pulses if I have to.
>
> It's only got in my head that this might be something for me to try
> because
> I tried variable PWM the other day and got some interesting results., for
> example......
> WIth a fixed 1kHz frequency I modulated the PWM widths. At lower settings
> every third pulse was three times the length of the first and every second
> pulse
> was twice the size of the first.....the fourth pulse is the same as the
> second. At about 1/3 throttle the thrid pulses are at 100% duty cycle and
> the
> other pulses are minimal but climbing. At 2/3rds throttle the second and
> fourth
> pulses are almost 100% and finally at full throttle all pulses are 100% ,
> though in practice 95% is the maximum limit and I intend to use a bupass
> controller for 100%.
> What I found by dong this was that there was a 300Hz full torque pulsing
> at
> 1/3 throttle which seemed to produce momre starting force in my motor , so
> I
> want to establish the best way to get the most from my pulses and thought
> that
> more current for the longer pulses would gie a good drive from zero
> speed.
> It's probably not too differnet to a variable frequency PWM system with a
> few
> odd harmonics thrown in I suppose, but it's fun to play, and good to make
> mistakes before you actually build the car !
>
> Chris
>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Building controllers is VERY difficult. Even the folks that do it for a
living burn up a lot of parts developing a new design.
Buying the components in small quantities is expensive, burning up
expensive components is doubly expensive.
Most likely result is that you spend MORE money building your own
controller and end up with one that either doesn't work, or doesn't work
as well as what you could have purchased for less money.
>
> I have the car. I know where to get the motor.
>
> I am having second thoughts with the controller.
>
> I really want to build my own. Am I two crazy to plan to get a cheap
> 48/72 volt controller just to get the car running and then try and build
> my own controller? I know just enough about controllers to get in trouble,
> but have access to a willing to help friend.
>
> I know I will never be able to build zilla, I just want to build something
> simple around a PIC and a 400 amp IGBT...
>
>
> Anybody want to sell a controller?
>
>
> --
> Eduardo K. |
> http://www.carfun.cl | "World domination, now"
> http://e.nn.cl | Linus Torvalds
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 29 Dec 2006 at 9:48, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> not the kHz pulsing that shakes crystals from the plates ...
I would say - at best - "ALLEGEDLY shakes crystals [of lead sulfate] from
the plates." IMO, this is one of the many claims of "desulfator"
manufacturers that are not sufficienctly supported by evidence.
> On -period is adjustable from 0.2 to 5 seconds, off period is adjustable from
> 0.5 to 10 seconds....or thereabouts.
What is the purpose of these pulses? This sounds a lot like what simple
cycle-dropping charge controllers have been doing - with straightforward
analog circuitry - for many decades. Their objective is to provide more or
less constant [average!] voltage for the final 20% of the charge, by acting
as a simple voltage regulator.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I took a peek at it since, yes, don't need translation :-)
It's good to have something in Russia, forward thinking.
The site is rather similar to John Moore's EV World site
(far from being as rich on material though) in the sense that
mainly advocacy and world news are main focus, not technical
things. Nevertheless, good to know.
Rod, if you need to to translate particular spot, just holler ...
As far as showing WKTEC in Moscow, it would be good if movie
can be dubbed at least with subtitles in Russian, or better,
have voice over. But, having it shown as is is certainly still
much better than nothing.
Victor
Roderick Wilde wrote:
I have met a guy named Igor through the internet, of course, who is a
fellow EVer. He is promoting the use of EVs in Russia. Here is his web
site: www.ebiker.ru If you put it in a Google web page translator you
can surf around and get a fairly decent idea of what it is about. Of
course Victor probably doesn't need a translation :-) I am going to try
to see if he can do a showing of Who Killed the Electric Car at the
University in Moscow. I'll let you all know if that happens.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G responded with......
On Dec 29, 2006, at 1:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/post?postID=3KJK9zb8XHc0zdnh8EEuPxw1YGJoyyUYj-ecdSYK-kHaIBb7kP3_O2udGQ9NO
-tzQKfdepUe) wrote:
> Is there any benefit to having a battery pack split so that you can
> either
> conect the batteries at half voltage but double current for starts
> and then
> switching to full voltage and regular current for speed ? There must a
> be a
> simple reason not to do this but I can't quite see it !
Any modern high switching speed motor controller is effectively doing
this for you already. At a 50% duty cycle the motor current is 2x the
battery current and the motor voltage is 1/2 the pack voltage. A modern
controller is an efficient buck converter.
Paul "neon" G.
>>>> End of QUote >>>>>>>
That's interesting Paul, where would I start to work out the best frequency
for switching though. I have slow Thyristors (100uS turnoff and turn on
time).....DO I need to go into root-pi LC and so on ? I don't enough about my
motor for that at this moment, but I could try optimising frequency on the run
once it's all in the vehicle.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Other explanations are that it dissolves the sulfate out of the lead.
Not very well documented.
Seems to me- in a very unscientific sense- that it would be more likely
to have an effect if you alternated charging and discharging high
currents. Like +10 amps then -10 amps. There should be no
overcharging. Well, it's different, this sort of thing never happens in
normal use. It's not like any other type of cycling, it should be
particularly effective at doing something to the plate's surface (if
anything does).
Battery "pulsers" never claimed that a pulse of 0.2 to 5 sec was useful
that I saw. They talked about KHz or higher, maybe MHz range. In some
places they talk about batteries resonating at a particular frequency
too and this was desirable. However, I suspect that was actually just
the ringing of the cables interconnecting them.
These desulfators have been brought up before. One note is that it does
not seem to even claim to be able to clean up bits of lead sulfate which
have flaked off the plates and this is supposed to be a major cause of
battery death. Nor can it heal a damaged separator or overcharging
damage. People have questioned whether the type of sulfation people
claim it fixes is even a problem in well-maintained batteries in the
first place.
Danny
David Roden wrote:
On 29 Dec 2006 at 9:48, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
not the kHz pulsing that shakes crystals from the plates ...
I would say - at best - "ALLEGEDLY shakes crystals [of lead sulfate] from
the plates." IMO, this is one of the many claims of "desulfator"
manufacturers that are not sufficienctly supported by evidence.
On -period is adjustable from 0.2 to 5 seconds, off period is adjustable from
0.5 to 10 seconds....or thereabouts.
What is the purpose of these pulses? This sounds a lot like what simple
cycle-dropping charge controllers have been doing - with straightforward
analog circuitry - for many decades. Their objective is to provide more or
less constant [average!] voltage for the final 20% of the charge, by acting
as a simple voltage regulator.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve wrote
> Bill - do you know how many amps each strand of braid can handle? I'm trying
> to figure this out for my current project and I can't seem to find good data.
> I used six layers per connection for my last project and it seemed like
> overkill - they never even got slightly warm, even under some pretty heavy
> amp draws.
>
Here is a link to a company in the UK http://www.alphawire.com/pages/159.cfm
that has a table giving the copper braid size and amp capacity.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In it's original configuration, the Bradley GT Electric using the GE EV1 SCR
controller and 16 six volt batteries (96 Volts) is configured with a
series/parallel 96 Volt/48 Volt dash mounted switch. In the 96 Volt series
configuration faster acceleration and top speed 60 mph and "limited" range;
in the 48 volt parallel configuration-slower acceleration and a top speed of
only about 40 mph but extends range between charges. Of course, must
remember to have the switch in "96 volt series" position when charging.
Don B. Davidson III
www.elecars.spaces.live.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 4:10 AM
Subject: Series-Parallel Batteries
> Paul G responded with......
>
> On Dec 29, 2006, at 1:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
(http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev/post?postID=3KJK9zb8XHc0zdnh8EEuPxw1Y
GJoyyUYj-ecdSYK-kHaIBb7kP3_O2udGQ9NO
> -tzQKfdepUe) wrote:
>
> > Is there any benefit to having a battery pack split so that you can
> > either
> > conect the batteries at half voltage but double current for starts
> > and then
> > switching to full voltage and regular current for speed ? There must a
> > be a
> > simple reason not to do this but I can't quite see it !
>
> Any modern high switching speed motor controller is effectively doing
> this for you already. At a 50% duty cycle the motor current is 2x the
> battery current and the motor voltage is 1/2 the pack voltage. A modern
> controller is an efficient buck converter.
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
> >>>> End of QUote >>>>>>>
>
> That's interesting Paul, where would I start to work out the best
frequency
> for switching though. I have slow Thyristors (100uS turnoff and turn on
> time).....DO I need to go into root-pi LC and so on ? I don't enough
about my
> motor for that at this moment, but I could try optimising frequency on
the run
> once it's all in the vehicle.
>
> Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerVal wrote...
Re: Series-Parallel batteries
If we ignore efficiency:
Power in = power out
Power = Volts * Amps
Voltage out = Voltage in * Pulse Percentage on time
So 100% duration; V out = V In & Amps out = Amps in
50% Duration; V out = V In / 2 & Amps out = Amps in * 2
remember power in = power out
25% Duration; V out = V in / 4 & Amps out = Amps in * 2
>>>> End of Quote >>>>>>>>>
Okay I see what you're saying for 100% and 50%, that the same power output
will be observed and so the same power input will be observed, P=IV .
But at 25% you have Volts/4 and Amps * 2, is that a typo ?
The thing I don't fully see to understand is that a 25% pulse dissipates the
same power as a 50% pulse...the whole point of modulating pulse lengths in
the first place is surely to take control over the ammount of power being
dissipated.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 12/29/2006 3:04:49 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Subj: Re: EV Milestones for 2006
> Date:12/29/2006 3:04:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
> From:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Reply-to:[email protected]
> To:[email protected]
> Received from Internet:
>
>
>
> How about Dennis Berube and the Current Eliminator's outstanding results
> racing against gasser dragsters? I don't remember the name of the
> big-time event he earned the right to compete in, but doing so must
> certainly have been an "EV first".
> cheers,
> Andrew
>
I raced in the race of champions at the division 7 finals for the nhra summit
racing finals top 4.I also won more races in the nhra summit series at
speedworld than any other racer.I was also in the final round for the nhra
wally at
speedworld.We ended up in 2nd place by 1 round in the nhra summit super pro
class
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One effect of some chargers, is that some emit a mechanical pulse which my
old charger did, was that it mix the water and acid through out the cell.
My old charger when turn up full blast, like a kid with very large speakers
with a 1000 watt amp that can blow down concrete block walls, like my nephew
has, would virabrate the whole car and ripple the electrolyte.
My old charger was so big and heavy, that I had to use a engine hoist to put
it in the EV. The charger transformer had to weigh over 150 lbs and the 1
Henry choke weigh close to 100 lbs. The laminations on both these units
would cause the whole EV to pulsate.
Try this as a test: Let one battery set for a month, and another battery
setting on some time of pulsating mechanism and/or pulse charger. Take a SG
reading and you will find that the battery without mechanical pulsating, the
electrolyte reading off the top of the cell will be much weaker than at the
bottom of the cell. The heaver acid settles to the bottom of the cell,
leaving the top of the electrolyte weaker.
The other battery which was subjected to a mechanical pulsating of a charger
that was on the same platform that the batteries was setting, had a better
mix of electrolyte through out the cell.
I could do these test, because I was working with a clear plastic one cell
case, that had a plastic tubes going down the inside corners of these
industrial traction cells call Tudor Cells.
At the present, I am doing another test of mixing the electrolyte in my 6
volt Trojans, is driving the EV or a very rough road with tire pressures at
65 psi about 4 miles, four times a day. This also provides a low frequency
pulsating of the whole car which should keep the electrolyte mix.
I have been doing this type of rough road driving for 5 years now. The
electrolyte is still clear as water, the voltage difference is only 0.02
between four batteries and 0.01 between 26 others and has very dry tops.
About every 6 months I would charge each battery separately with a
Schumacker Smart charge that has a desulfation cycle in it.
If I'am able to get another 5 years out of these batteries and if the
electrolyte is still clear and no settlement on the bottom, then this
pulsation technique may work.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: Pulse Charger follow up
> Other explanations are that it dissolves the sulfate out of the lead.
> Not very well documented.
>
> Seems to me- in a very unscientific sense- that it would be more likely
> to have an effect if you alternated charging and discharging high
> currents. Like +10 amps then -10 amps. There should be no
> overcharging. Well, it's different, this sort of thing never happens in
> normal use. It's not like any other type of cycling, it should be
> particularly effective at doing something to the plate's surface (if
> anything does).
>
> Battery "pulsers" never claimed that a pulse of 0.2 to 5 sec was useful
> that I saw. They talked about KHz or higher, maybe MHz range. In some
> places they talk about batteries resonating at a particular frequency
> too and this was desirable. However, I suspect that was actually just
> the ringing of the cables interconnecting them.
>
> These desulfators have been brought up before. One note is that it does
> not seem to even claim to be able to clean up bits of lead sulfate which
> have flaked off the plates and this is supposed to be a major cause of
> battery death. Nor can it heal a damaged separator or overcharging
> damage. People have questioned whether the type of sulfation people
> claim it fixes is even a problem in well-maintained batteries in the
> first place.
>
> Danny
>
> David Roden wrote:
>
> >On 29 Dec 2006 at 9:48, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>not the kHz pulsing that shakes crystals from the plates ...
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I would say - at best - "ALLEGEDLY shakes crystals [of lead sulfate] from
> >the plates." IMO, this is one of the many claims of "desulfator"
> >manufacturers that are not sufficienctly supported by evidence.
> >
> >
> >
> >>On -period is adjustable from 0.2 to 5 seconds, off period is adjustable
> >>from
> >>0.5 to 10 seconds....or thereabouts.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >What is the purpose of these pulses? This sounds a lot like what simple
> >cycle-dropping charge controllers have been doing - with straightforward
> >analog circuitry - for many decades. Their objective is to provide more
> >or
> >less constant [average!] voltage for the final 20% of the charge, by
> >acting
> >as a simple voltage regulator.
> >
> >
> >David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> >EV List Assistant Administrator
> >
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> >or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> >To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> >the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> >= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I will start racing the CE again on jan.1 07 at speedworld in Witman Az.Its a
gambler race that should have a good payoff.
I will again be racing in
the super pro class all year with the CE dragster,both for the ADRA and for
the NHRA Summit series.The ADRA series starts jan.6th at speedworld.
The CE ran over 650 qt.mile
passes in 06.Total winings against the super pro gassers $3700.00 for the year!
I am picking up my S10 truck today up in prescot az.The full cage is
now completed as is the battery and control containment.Nhra and Nedra rules
will put this s10 in the pro street catorgy.It will be a daily driver here in
phoenix.Some of the features,a 2khv zilla,a 13 inch ge motor direct drive into
a
9 inch ford rear with air lockup and 40 spline axel..Air front suspension and
ladder bar rear.The truck will also carry the pfc20 charger,a dc to dc step
up to 13.8 volt sli.,and 2 12volt chargers 1 for the reverse and 1 for the
sli.These are also multi input chargers.There is a honda 2000 watt emergency
genset mounted in the underhood compartment.Manual steering and manual brakes.I
will be building the 13 inch ge in january while the truck will be in the paint
shop.The truck will use a 9inch dot slick in the rear.It should be on the road
in april 07.Advance plans include a larger ge motor that I will build in the
summer of 07. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The professional type bottle filler made by PLEWS / Edeimann Division, Stant
> Corportion No. 75030 , has a two stage telescoping spout that recesses to a
> first stop for standard batteries and than to a second stop for deep cycle
> batteries that works good. It fills to about 1/8 to 1/16 inch below the
> filling neck.
Here is a link to the filler bottle Roland was talking about -
http://www.plews-edelmann.com/brochure.cfm?brochure=2296&location_id=2757
no price.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This table does not show the length of braid. So looking this up in a
engineering handbook, the ampere ratings may be for a 1 meter length. A 1/8
flat braid has a amp rating of 15 amps at 1 meter, so that data is close for
this table with a maximum 1 percent volt drop at 60 degrees C.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: How much flex in battery interconnects
> Steve wrote
>
> > Bill - do you know how many amps each strand of braid can handle? I'm
> > trying to figure this out for my current project and I can't seem to
> > find good data. I used six layers per connection for my last project
> > and it seemed like overkill - they never even got slightly warm, even
> > under some pretty heavy amp draws.
> >
>
> Here is a link to a company in the UK
> http://www.alphawire.com/pages/159.cfm that has a table giving the copper
> braid size and amp capacity.
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
> www.Airphibian.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We've been over this pulse charging issue before.
I wrote to Nawaz, who works for US Battery, and asked him about sulfated
batteries and if there was any documentation that proved that pulse charging
helped them, this is his response -
Friday, July 29, 2005 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Desulfating batteries
Nawaz wrote -
> Hello Rush:
>
> Thanks for contacting me. Here is my take on it, FWIW.
>
> I have been in the lead acid battery science and technology since 1967.
> I still fail to understand why people keep talking about sulfation and
> as a result desulfation of batteries. I inform everyone that sulfation
> is a pathological condition that exists only on long shelf stand (6
> months or more) batteries or operating undercharged batteries and that
> it does not exist in normal operating batteries. Forming lead sulfate
> is a normal discharge process without which the battery cannot ever work.
> So desulfation is a solution to a problem that is very rare indeed.
> People start believing in it because if you give a strong charge to a
> dead battery from a junk pile or otherwise, with or without adding
> anything to it, chances are good that it will recover some capacity (10
> to 75%) , albiet for a very few cycles, before it dies. This fools our
> garage inventors into believing in their inventions. It is unfortunate.
>
> Only pulsing during charge techniques helps the healing process when
> this rare problem is encountered as mentioned above.
>
> Most additives will do more harm than good as they get oxidized into
> harmful compounds. Compounds that dissolve lead, destroying the active
> material.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Nawaz Qureshi
So he is saying that if you chronically undercharge your batteries, then pulse
charging might help. I would think that properly charging your batteries or
getting a better charger would be more helpful in the long run.
Check out the battery regulators on the list, or Lee Harts battery balancer,
which regulates the battery as it is discharging also, not just charging.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dooh! <smacks forehead>
Yup, that's a typo. SHould have said "Amps * 4"
> But at 25% you have Volts/4 and Amps * 2, is that a typo ?
>
> The thing I don't fully see to understand is that a 25% pulse dissipates
> the
> same power as a 50% pulse...the whole point of modulating pulse lengths
> in
> the first place is surely to take control over the ammount of power being
> dissipated.
No, no, no. We are not talking about the absolute amount of power
availabe, we are talking about the RELATION between input power and output
power. (Ignoring losses) these are ALWAYS equal. They have to be, we
can't possibly have more power going out than the power coming into the
controller.
You are thinking about it as if the controller were the only part of the
equation. The MOTOR is there too. Ideally the controller doesn't
dissapate any power (unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world)
In the real world the output power is somewhat smaller than the input
power because the controller (or motor, or whatever) has some loss. The
actual equation is
Power in = power out + losses
The MOTOR determines how much power is USED, the controller controlls how
much is AVAILABLE.
The controller is capable of delivering however much current it's rated
for regardless of duty cycle. Changing the input voltage has NO effect on
how much current the controller can source. This is determined by the
designer of the controller.
The motor determines how much current it will pull depending on RPM,
applied load and applied voltage.
If the motor needs 400 amps when 24V is applied, and the controller is
running at 25% duty cycle, then the batteries will be sourcing 100 amps.
The duty cycle does not SET the current at a certain point. The duty
cycle only sets the voltage. The motor determines the current needed.
The current the batteries source depends on the motors current * the duty
cycle.
It's entirely possible to run at a fixed duty cycle and have the current
go up and down depending on the load. I.e. if we are running at a fixed
25% duty cycle, and our vehicle goes from flat land to climbing a hill,
the current requirement will increase dramatically even though the duty
cycle, and the motor voltage, remains the same.
However, even though the current at the motor fluctuates, the relationship
between the motor current and battery current remains the same.
I.e. at 25% duty cycle the motor current will always be 4 times the
battery current.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, I've seen enough talk about why direct drive generally is not the
preferred alternative using the smaller motors, but the tradeoff in weight
and performance seems reasonable for people willing to upsize the motor.
In general, I'm assuming a few things here:
#1, Weight difference is only a minor increase overall of less than 50 lbs
or so given that the differential from the transaxle (guessing -150lbs
there) will need a suitable rear drive style replacement, reducing that
weight reduction by about half. Plus an 11" motor simply weighs 80 lbs more
than the 9" I would use with a transaxle, making it probably pretty close to
a wash.
#2, Torque nearly doubles with voltage, so a 144V pack should provide nearly
300 lb-ft output from the 11" motor while keeping it under 500 amps maximum
draw. Direct driven through a 4.11:1 rear end, that's roughly 1200 lb-ft to
the axles. Working that backwards through the first gear ratio of the
outgoing transmission of 13.66:1 overall, that should give me performance
off the line equivalent to having about 88 lb-ft of input vs. the stock 105
lb-ft. Considering that it's instantaneous, it should feel at least as
strong as stock and have plenty of hill climbing power for all but the
steepest inclines. (But for autocross and my short flat commute, it's
unlikely to see any hill duty.)
I'm assuming that for commuting, I'd rarely need to exceed even 100-150 amps
for reasonable acceleration with no highway travel.
#3, My cost difference is about $1000 more, assuming salvage parts for the
rear end can be found at a reasonable price, and I can defer some expense of
a transmission adapter by using the Turbo 400 yoke supplied by EV Parts.
I'm also assuming that I can get by with a less robust controller like the
Curtis 1231c (so maybe just a 120V pack), knocking some of the expense off
of what it would cost to get similar direct drive performance out of a
smaller motor.
The goal of this project is to have:
- Stock-like acceleration
- 20-30 mile maximum working range
- Under 500 lb weight penalty vs. stock (total curb weight under 3000 lbs
post conversion)
- Highway speed capability up to 75 mph or so
I'm willing to compromise range somewhat in order to meet the other
conditions. From what I've read here and elsewhere, these seem reasonable
targets to shoot for.
So can anyone punch any serious holes in my assumptions and expectations?
- Kip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Steve and others,
I've seen price per vehicle quotes of $45K for the SUT. (Ref:
http://news.com.com/Revving+up+for+the+all-electric+SUV/2100-11389_3-6139703.html?tag=news.1
Granted 10 packs into $750K is slightly above $45K by about $30K but I
assume that these are hand built packs and the cost will come down as
mass production kicks in. There are plans for 100K units in 2010. (Ref:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/10/31/ed-begley-jr-promotes-phoenix-sut-encourages-aftermarket-invol
)
If $45K is their price point and the chassis is Korean made, Kia has
SUV's in the low to mid 20's (with an ICE). (A Cadallac Escalade EXT
SUT lists for about $54K.) This would make the pack cost below $30K or
less than $1 per Wh. The warranty is listed as 250K miles/12+ years.
(http://www.phoenixmotorcars.com/index.html) That works out to be less
than $0.12/mile. Deduct ICE maintenance costs and your down under
$0.10/mile.
Add about $0.04/mile for electricity, recharging losses, and road tax.
A 30 mile trip would cost you less than $4.00. A 20 mpg equivalent
vehicle with gasoline at $2.20 / gallon would cost $3.30 just for the
fuel. Add $0.03/mile for maintenance and you are up at $4.20 for 30
miles. Basically, break even.
From Victor Tikhonov's http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/battery.htm
"I chose to use 96 Lithium-Ion cells 90 Ah each. 3.6V nominal each,
making it 345V pack." The cost of the pack was just under $9K for a
31kWh pack or about $0.30/Wh. The Altair pack is roughly a $1.00/Wh.
Mass producing the Altair packs has the potential for much lower costs.
All in all, the economics is looking good.
Peter
Steve wrote:
Marketwire reports Altair Nanotechnologies Inc. (NASDAQ: ALTI) announced today
that it
shipped ten rapid charge, high power NanoSafeT battery packs to Phoenix
Motorcars, Inc. on
schedule.
Phoenix Motorcars is building an electric Sport Utility Truck (SUT).
As reported in http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/12/phoenix_ev_truc.php:
"Using
lithium ion batteries, Phoenix has developed two normal-looking, normal-sized
electric
vehicles that they plan on releasing sometime in 2007. Their Sport Utility
Truck (room for
five with a flatbed)... . Pheonix's 120 mile range vehicles will be available
soon, they
plan on producing at least 500 SUT's in 2007. I hate to point out the obvious
but, wow,
that's not very many. No word on the sticker price, but it's going to be pretty
darned
expensive."
Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:37 PM
Subject: AltairNano Completes ORDER to Phoenix Motorcar
A little pricy... but a beginning. Ten 35kwh Bat.Packs
As reported to me from Google News Feed:
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=198524
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dennis,
Make sure that the genset (and its fuel tank) can be easily
and completely removed. You need to do this for two reasons:
1) When you register the car, it can't be in place or it will be
classified as a gasoline-powered car that will have to pass
emissions. (The genset has no hope of doing this.)
2) The NEDRA rules require that there be no fuel tank and no engine.
Also, hybrids aren't allowed.
I know that they are difficult to find, but a small diesel
genset might be a better choice if you want to maintain the "green"
theme of the vehicle. You can run it on biodiesel.
Just a suggestion,
Bill Dube'
At 08:20 AM 12/30/2006, you wrote:
I will start racing the CE again on jan.1 07 at speedworld in Witman Az.Its a
gambler race that should have a good payoff.
I will again be
racing in
the super pro class all year with the CE dragster,both for the ADRA and for
the NHRA Summit series.The ADRA series starts jan.6th at
speedworld.
The CE ran over 650 qt.mile
passes in 06.Total winings against the super pro gassers $3700.00
for the year!
I am picking up my S10 truck today up in prescot az.The full cage is
now completed as is the battery and control containment.Nhra and Nedra rules
will put this s10 in the pro street catorgy.It will be a daily driver here in
phoenix.Some of the features,a 2khv zilla,a 13 inch ge motor direct
drive into a
9 inch ford rear with air lockup and 40 spline axel..Air front suspension and
ladder bar rear.The truck will also carry the pfc20 charger,a dc to dc step
up to 13.8 volt sli.,and 2 12volt chargers 1 for the reverse and 1 for the
sli.These are also multi input chargers.There is a honda 2000 watt emergency
genset mounted in the underhood compartment.Manual steering and
manual brakes.I
will be building the 13 inch ge in january while the truck will be
in the paint
shop.The truck will use a 9inch dot slick in the rear.It should be
on the road
in april 07.Advance plans include a larger ge motor that I will build in the
summer of 07. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
