EV Digest 6257
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Pulse Charger follow up
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV Milestones for 2006
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Milestones for 2006
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) : Gens in EV's, Range, Eff
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Recycled 4/0, 0000 guage cables
by "Harry Houck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Recycled 4/0, 0000 guage cables
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: regen breaking
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV Milestones for 2006
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Controllers
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV Milestones for 2006
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: regen breaking
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Series-Parallel Batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Manzanita micro PCF-20 charger
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Gens in EV's, Re: Current Eliminator news
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: regen breaking
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: regen breaking
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Recycled 4/0, 0000 guage cables
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV Milestones for 2006
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Final tally: 2.3 years; 7,128 miles before murder. New strategies for
next USB pack
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV Milestones for 2006
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AltairNano Completes ORDER to Phoenix Motorcar
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Considering Warp11 for 85 MR2 Direct Drive
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Honda FCX available for purchase in 2008????
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Considering Warp11 for 85 MR2 Direct Drive
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
Seems to me -- in a very unscientific sense -- that it would be more
likely to have an effect if you alternated charging and discharging
high currents. Like +10 amps then -10 amps.
This was the subject of Podrazhonski's patented algorithm (sorry; I
don't recall the correct spelling). Basically, it applies a charging
pulse, then lets the battery rest, then a discharge pulse, then a rest,
and repeat. The theory was that these pulses could "rejuvenate" a
battery, and could tell if further charging was needed by how fast the
voltage dropped after a charging pulse and how fast it climbed again
after a discharging pulse.
As usual, great (marketing) claims were made for it, but little or no
independent testing was done.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
I am having second thoughts with the controller. I really want to
build my own. Am I crazy to plan to get a cheap 48/72 volt controller
just to get the car running, and then try and build my own controller?
No; I think that's a reasonable idea. If you get a good deal on a
"first" controller, you can use it and then sell it to the next guy
building an EV. There's an old song that goes...
The pump won't pump if it's lost its prime.
So leave a little water for the next in line.
You can also build your own first controller with contactors. Crude; but
simple and it works. Most of the parts will be needed anyway when you
change to a PWM controller (contactors, connectors, fuses, shunt, etc.)
I know I will never be able to build a Zilla; I just want to build
something simple around a PIC and a 400 amp IGBT...
As people have pointed out, this won't be as cheap or easy as it looks.
But if you keep your wits, you can still make it work.
You should start by finding a good, working design example to copy. It
could be a dead controller, or plans from a book or application note
somewhere. Resist the urge to make too many "improvements". There are
likely to be very good reasons why the designer used a 600amp transistor
for a 200amp controller (i.e. because the 200a and 400a ones he tried died!)
If it were me, I'd oversize the parts by 3:1 to give myself a good
safety margin. For example, 600v parts for a 200v pack, and use enough
in parallel to run them at 1/3rd their rated current.
I wouldn't use a microcomputer. I'd use one of many standard switching
regulator controller ICs that already have the hardware for undervoltage
shutdown, overvoltage lockout, single-pulse current limiting,
overtemperature protection, etc. That way, you have a pretty good chance
of it working.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wish we could put "EVAlbum hits 1000 posted EV's" on the list. Any chance we
could push for 47 more folks to post theirs by the
end of the year, who haven't yet?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I could get 3 maybe 4 as I found some puctures of my 2nd ,,, I've been so busy
I haven't kept up with putting them in the album ,,, new years revelation ,, do
it now :-)
steve clunn
>
> From: Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2006/12/30 Sat PM 09:53:50 EST
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: EV Milestones for 2006
>
> I wish we could put "EVAlbum hits 1000 posted EV's" on the list. Any chance
> we could push for 47 more folks to post theirs by the
> end of the year, who haven't yet?
>
> Mike,
> Anchorage, Ak
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Danny and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Gens in EV's, Re: Current Eliminator news
Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2006 18:24:52 -0600
>According to my rough calcs with a Robin RGV12100, you'd
>need to use no more than about 0.055KHW/mi to get this
>sort of mpg.
The calcs EVA did for the Freedom EV gave it 60 to
130 wthrs/mile from 30 mph to 75 mph. And data from my
similar size but higher drag Ewoody from the wall plug
agrees. So by your calcs it should do it easily with a 100
mile battery range.
My calc's, 1 gallon of gas is about 6.5lbs
x.45lb/hphr I believe the 9 hp Robin's consumption at 8hp if
I remember right, equals about 14.5 hphrs/gal. That x's 600
wt each hp makes equals about 8.7kw so runs about 2 hrs on a
gallon of gas. That's where the pent roof, angle valves,
high compression, ignition advance, ect, comes in. It's
about a 5kw gen, not 10 kw.
Then he says, Ah Ha!! 5kw won't let you go 75mph!!
But it doesn't have to, just keep going steady and the
80-160 mile range battery pack will make up the rest,
charging going downhill, in traffic, while eating, taking a
break, stretching, ect. will easily handle it even for long
cross country trips. I'm thinking about delivering them
with themselves by one towing another to save delivery, fuel
costs, controlling both from the front one.
So the question becomes, can I go 100 miles on 8.7kw
a gal generates? And I think so at 55mph or less, and higher
speeds with the excellent battery range ;^D. And that range
increases as the gen takes much of it's load, allowing more
battery range.
Later I'll try to make it more eff and if I sell
enough, have Robin build a special high eff, lower emissions
engine for me or find a lighter, better engine. Until then
I'll do it myself as we use to make euro cars pass the EPA
test to come in the country, it's not that hard, especially
at 1 speed. You don't even have to idle as the gen can spin
it up to full speed in a second!!
>
>I see the Freedom EV is a tadpole car and somewhat closer
>to a motorcycle.
It's much closer to a compact car than a MC. Actually
closer to the most expensive Ferrari's, aircraft, with it's
composite monocoque construction!!
I'm looking at
>http://eiclub.students.mtu.edu/presentations/freedom_ev.pdf
Distrubingly accurate!! Except the wthr/mile. Correct
for over 70 mph but how much I'm or anyone going to be
driving that speed without slowing, stopping. With 5kw, the
battery bank, you could go 70 mph steady for 2.5 hrs, 60 mph
for about 7 hrs? 55 mph forever. Few trips average more
than 60 mph, many less than 50 mph. I do inbetween those.
Though one of my customers is going to do just that
with a very long commute on battery. Average wthr/mile will
be between 80-100wthr/mile and probably on the lower side.
They added battery cost though on it's rating and not
engine maintance, ect so that wasn't really fair but got the
electrcity, batts cost correct.
Also disturbing is how much on the internet about me I
don't even know about like this!! Though I'm glad I'm giving
some students something to think, write about which helps
spread the word as obviously someone there likes the Freedom
EV business plan.
Jerry Dycus
>and it shows a consumption of 0.120 KWh/mi. That would
>place fuel consumption at around 46 mpg. This is of
>course a good mpg for a sedan, but for a super-small
>minicar I'd consider that somewhat poor.
>
>What did you base your calcs on? I just pulled the specs
>on a 10kw continuous output Robin generator, 11.6 ga
>capacity, 8.2 hrs runtime on a tank, and 80% efficiency
>due to controller, any battery cycling, and motor losses.
>
>Danny
>
>jerryd wrote:
>
>> I'll use a shunt version of the ADC A89/D+D ES21
>>for my gen saving all that electronics with good eff with
>>a 9hp Robin and I expect over 100mpg in the Freedom EV on
>>long trips.
>> But Dennis is probably just using it when a plug
>>isn't available or gets stuck. With my 100 mile range, I'l
>>rarely use mine.
>> The other poster is right about installing it
>>permanently as it makes things very difficult
>>EPA/emissions wise. Mine will be plug in and probably
>>rarely even in it, only for long trips. And I'll tune it
>>with emissions equipment for very low emissions
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have about fifteen 4/0, 12.5 foot long cables for sale. They're pulled
from mid '80's BMW's found in our dry California salvage yards. See pics
at http://picasaweb.google.com/Neverbody/BMWCables.
I sell the kits to ICE modifyers but have some with corroded ends that
EV people can slice and dice for their projects. The insulation seems to
be molded on, very tough. Stiffer than welding cable. I'd rather it go
to EV people than the local recycler.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How many $ each?
They look much more flexible than what my EV has; I may be interested.
- Arthur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 2006-12-30 at 19:52 -0800, Harry Houck wrote:
> I have about fifteen 4/0, 12.5 foot long cables for sale. They're pulled
> from mid '80's BMW's found in our dry California salvage yards. See pics
> at http://picasaweb.google.com/Neverbody/BMWCables.
> I sell the kits to ICE modifyers but have some with corroded ends that
> EV people can slice and dice for their projects. The insulation seems to
> be molded on, very tough. Stiffer than welding cable. I'd rather it go
> to EV people than the local recycler.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't agree. Although I have tried it that way. It's way too
difficult to hold my foot for long periods of time in one position when
the terrain and traffic varies. Especially during testing. It's way
easier to just use the shifter and put the truck into a different regen
range. My regen is set to close to 0% in D, 50% in 2nd, and 100% in
1st.
Mike
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> THere is no need to set 0% regen if you have good control
> over your right foot.
> I know that many US behemoths invite on/off type acceleration
> but with a trained right foot it is easy to keep my truck
> rolling at (almost) no current, you just need to find the
> right spot by listening to the gearbox noise or having a
> feel for acceleration/deceleration, or have a meter that shows it.
>
> This way I can drive on freeway and in city without
> reprogramming for a different braking profile.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 4:10 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: regen breaking
>
>
> The regen in my truck is variable from zero too 100%. I can drive all
> day without touching the brakes, and often do. Zero % may be helpful
> on
> the freeway. Have yet to test that theory.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > does any one have some info on how much braking is done by regen
> > breaking? what is the percentage done by regen and what is the
> > percentage done by regular breaks [i.e. disk, drum]
> >
> >
> > check out my blog:
> >
> > http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rod;
Heres a few;
The Tesla production, a EV outfit with the bux and balls to dive in!
Who Killed the Electric Car, the film that has brought 100's of folks out
of the woodwork, and out in their garages doing converions.
The Other flick; Inconvenient Truth, waking up a sleeping America to
Global Warming, and people seeing EV's as a part of the solution.
Battery Progress; Small start up Co's doing battery research for us and
our cars.
Our EV List as it gets to a mail box choking size. Or more newbees,
coming out and on. DOING something as EVERY EV out there is a statement.
OK let's talk about 07. Good stuff coming I think.Cars, batteries,
thousands of EV's taking to the roads, not only here, but Russia, Europe
China ,India, Hell! EVerywhere!Somebody was talking about showing WKtEC in
Moscow? Hope they can dub it in Russian, so EVerybody there can understand
it?Alot of technology there, engineers, etc. Should be some production of
EV's in Russia? Must be a hellova lot of aero space engineers looking for a
challanging thing to do, since the Cold War is pretty much over?Same folks
that built MIGs and subs??
Seeya
Bob----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 2:31 PM
Subject: EV Milestones for 2006
> I thought it might be good if we could use the collective consciousness of
> the EV List to come up with a list of the top ten EV milestones for 2006.
> Also maybe a wish list for 2007. What do you folks think? You must have
some
> idea of what you think would be on this list.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> EV Parts, Inc.
> www.evparts.com
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.29/608 - Release Date:
12/29/2006
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.29/608 - Release Date: 12/29/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>If it were me, I'd oversize the parts by 3:1 to give myself a good
>safety margin. For example, 600v parts for a 200v pack, and use enough
>in parallel to run them at 1/3rd their rated current.
I'd look seriously at the Powerex intelligent power modules. So long
as you ensure your snubbers are correct, the remainder of the part
tends to protect itself (at least you seem to get fewer explosions).
If you ever get repeated FAULT signals, you need to fix something.
Read all of the application notes and heed all of the warnings and
hints. The modules are expensive but probably in development (and
for a one-off) would probably result in fewer blow-ups. I'd probably
try to get one rated for the full amount of current rather than
paralleling a few smaller ones.
At current levels less than, say, 50 amps, things are pretty forgiving
but above that, things go from bad to explosions very quickly. Wear
hearing protection. The sound of a 'small' TO-247 IGBT popping is
somewhere around that of a .303 rifle going off. Been there, done
that. Most of my day-job work is below 50 amps, so going to the
300A level is new territory for me, though.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Clooney gets a Tango
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*All* my braking (except emergency ones) is done entirely by regen.
This is the reason my disks are rusty and pads the same as installed on
2002 - they never really get a chance to work.
The only exception to this is when I roll down hill (I leave at some
elevation) after fully charged pack. By the end of the hill I gradually
loose regen and so have good chance to clean out the rust from the disks.
Now, how much energy do you recover using regen (even for 100% of all
braking needs) is entirely different question. It really depends.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
dale henderson wrote:
does any one have some info on how much braking is done by regen breaking?
what is the percentage done by regen and what is the percentage done by regular
breaks [i.e. disk, drum]
check out my blog:
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Paul G responded...
>> Any modern high switching speed motor controller is effectively
>> doing this for you already. At a 50% duty cycle the motor current
>> is 2x the battery current and the motor voltage is 1/2 the pack
>> voltage. A modern controller is an efficient buck converter.
>
> True enough. A buck converter can be 98% efficient when cutting the
> voltage in half and doubling the current. But switching the batteries
> from series to parallel is 100% efficient. It can still gain you a
> couple percent efficiency, if that's important.
Yes, but not if you intend to run it through a controller anyway. Then
the lower voltage will most likely lead to lower efficiency in the
controller/
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"bruce parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> My real-life experience:
> According to http://www.usbattery.com/pages/6vgolf.htm
> a US125 delivers 75amps for 140min, that is ( 75 * (140/60) = )
175
> ahr pack.
Bruce,
Did you load test a pack, and if so do you have the data?
I load tested my pack last fall and registered about 128A-hr.
The spreadsheet is up on the internet if you are interested (I
will have to find the URL). I rarely see a battery deliver its
rated A-hr.
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry doesn't bother with calculations, or measurements.
Instead he bases his statements on his "vast amount of experience"
Anyone who is concerned with measurements and calculations, will probably
have to make them on their own.
> According to my rough calcs with a Robin RGV12100, you'd need to use no
> more than about 0.055KHW/mi to get this sort of mpg.
>
> I see the Freedom EV is a tadpole car and somewhat closer to a
> motorcycle. I'm looking at
> http://eiclub.students.mtu.edu/presentations/freedom_ev.pdf and it shows
> a consumption of 0.120 KWh/mi. That would place fuel consumption at
> around 46 mpg. This is of course a good mpg for a sedan, but for a
> super-small minicar I'd consider that somewhat poor.
>
> What did you base your calcs on? I just pulled the specs on a 10kw
> continuous output Robin generator, 11.6 ga capacity, 8.2 hrs runtime on
> a tank, and 80% efficiency due to controller, any battery cycling, and
> motor losses.
>
> Danny
>
> jerryd wrote:
>
>> I'll use a shunt version of the ADC A89/D+D ES21 for
>>my gen saving all that electronics with good eff with a 9hp
>>Robin and I expect over 100mpg in the Freedom EV on long
>>trips.
>> But Dennis is probably just using it when a plug
>>isn't available or gets stuck. With my 100 mile range, I'l
>>rarely use mine.
>> The other poster is right about installing it
>>permanently as it makes things very difficult EPA/emissions
>>wise. Mine will be plug in and probably rarely even in it,
>>only for long trips. And I'll tune it with emissions
>>equipment for very low emissions.
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*All* my braking (except emergency ones) is done entirely by regen.
This is the reason my disks are rusty and pads the same as installed on
2002 - they never really get a chance to work.
The only exception to this is when I roll down hill (I leave at some
elevation) after fully charged pack. By the end of the hill I gradually
loose regen and so have good chance to clean out the rust from the disks.
Now, how much energy do you recover is entirely different
question. It depends.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
dale henderson wrote:
does any one have some info on how much braking is done by regen breaking?
what is the percentage done by regen and what is the percentage done by regular
breaks [i.e. disk, drum]
check out my blog:
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, that is the difference:
With the conversion from Dolphin to WaveDriver controller,
this truck lost the 2nd and 1st gears, so I only have [D]
besides [P], [R] and [N].
This means that I only have 1 regen profile to choose from.
I have never really understood the need for a Neutral gear
on an EV, but that is probably just me. (this is an AC
system, before some one starts yelling about runaway due
to a short-circuit controller).
I will probably dive into reverse-engineering the gear switch
one day, as my controller faults out and drops the contactor
if I jiggle the drive selector a bit while the accelerator is
depressed. This gets my wife every time and it happened to me
only twice in 5000 miles, but it is still unnerving to drive
down a road, accidentally hit the gear selector with a finger
while steering and see the fault light on the dash come on
while the truck is coasting to a halt (which can take a few
blocks if I do not hit the brakes).
I have the impression that the gear selector can be in between
gears, not in [D] and also not in [N], so the controller
detects an "Invalid gear selected" and faults.
With a bit of logic or maybe with just a pull-up resistor,
I may be able to have a default [D] selection when neither
[P], [R] or [N] is engaged. We'll see.
Ah, the joy of having a one-off unique vehicle, due to the
conversion of the US Electricar conversion...
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 8:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: regen breaking
I don't agree. Although I have tried it that way. It's way too
difficult to hold my foot for long periods of time in one position when
the terrain and traffic varies. Especially during testing. It's way
easier to just use the shifter and put the truck into a different regen
range. My regen is set to close to 0% in D, 50% in 2nd, and 100% in
1st.
Mike
--- Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> THere is no need to set 0% regen if you have good control
> over your right foot.
> I know that many US behemoths invite on/off type acceleration
> but with a trained right foot it is easy to keep my truck
> rolling at (almost) no current, you just need to find the
> right spot by listening to the gearbox noise or having a
> feel for acceleration/deceleration, or have a meter that shows it.
>
> This way I can drive on freeway and in city without
> reprogramming for a different braking profile.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 4:10 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: regen breaking
>
>
> The regen in my truck is variable from zero too 100%. I can drive all
> day without touching the brakes, and often do. Zero % may be helpful
> on
> the freeway. Have yet to test that theory.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > does any one have some info on how much braking is done by regen
> > breaking? what is the percentage done by regen and what is the
> > percentage done by regular breaks [i.e. disk, drum]
> >
> >
> > check out my blog:
> >
> > http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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Is there a a voltage rating printed on the jacket?
Harry Houck wrote:
I have about fifteen 4/0, 12.5 foot long cables for sale. They're pulled
from mid '80's BMW's found in our dry California salvage yards. See pics
at http://picasaweb.google.com/Neverbody/BMWCables.
I sell the kits to ICE modifyers but have some with corroded ends that
EV people can slice and dice for their projects. The insulation seems to
be molded on, very tough. Stiffer than welding cable. I'd rather it go
to EV people than the local recycler.
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For me a mile stone happened just this week ,, Don brought his s 10 with the 13
" net gain motor to my "shop in the woods" . The motor sits about 1 foot in
front of the big 9" ford rear ,, ( the rear has disk brakes and has been
shortened and a 4.7 gear put in ) . Everything was done except for the wiring
.. This was my first time hooking up the series parellel and the
forward/reverse contactors. It wasn't so hard , had to reset the hair ball and
toggle on the s/p and f/r . The 13" motor has extra coils in the field so the
field coils could be s/p . Don has the 2k 348v controller inside the cab ,
not something I'd do but with the dash gone there is a lot of room and I think
he's going to build somthing around it ... With the truck on jack stands and 1
battery we could see a big difference with switching the field in s / p ,.He
has 28 hawker oddessey 1500 batteries which are a little smaller than orbitals
. Got to do a little test driving ,, batteries not broken in bu!
t it will go ... Now if I could get my Porsche 12 with the two 9" doing the s/
p dance before the new year ,,
Happy new year all and lets make this the " Year of the Electric Car "
Steve Clunn
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Bob Bath wrote Wednesday, December 27, 2006 7:06 AM:
> Well it's time. The current pack is needing way too
> much charge current, and sagging waaaay too hard on
> hill pulls and moderate acceleration.
>
> The longevity I got, while cost-effective compared
> with ICE, was not enough compared to others on the
> list. So I've compiled my findings. Feel free to
> add:
Don't feel too bad. I stuck my foot in my pack about a year ago,
when it was only a few months old, and put too much water in it,
near as I can tell. I now have about 5300 miles on the pack, and
a 100-point sg spread. I am running the electrolyte levels back
down, primarily on Roland's advice from a few months ago, and
after extensive discussion with Roger. Last month, one of the
cells that had been coming up on sg was 1285, and I think my
other cells are starting to move up, although it will be a haul
to pull the low one up from 1185, and some others that are down
near 1200. I hope they all pull back into a line over the next
several months, while I water the hot ones enough to keep the
electrolyte from going below the tops of the plates. In the
meantime, I am still effectively using the car to get to and from
work and errands over all these hills around here.
I would like to know why you say cost-effective compared with
ICE. If you got 7000 miles, and you have, if I recall, 16 8V
batteries for a 144V pack, and if each one of those batteries is
costing, $80-100, then you're paying $1300-1600 for your pack.
That's roughly 20-23 cents / mile, battery cost alone, on top of
your electricity, tires, brakes, battery pack transportation and
install, etc. I think the battery cost has got to be on the
order of 10 cents / mile to make an EV reach parity with an ICE.
Some, like Roland, are claiming much lower cost/mile (I recall
Roland was getting something like 2-4 cents/mile, which is
phenomenal). I admit, however, that there is a lot of hand
waving when talking these #s up, as it seems rather hard to
really compare the costs of running an EV vs an ICE vehicle.
>
> USB says to hold 2.587VPC for 2 hrs. to get bubbling
> and complete mixing of the electrolyte.
> Successful listers say charge until you get 2.65 SG
> and (within reason) ignore the dang voltage. If
> you've done so, you'll have had bubbling and mixed the
> electrolyte. I've also heard that this is almost an
> equalizing charge every time.
I think this 2.587 is too high for every charge cycle, given my
experience with this pack I'm on now. Next pack, if there is
one, will go to 14.80V/12V of cells, or 2.47VPC on the typical
charge, per Roland's advice. Equalizing charge @6A till no
voltage increase once a week or about every 50-75 miles. (I am
running US125 6V'ers, by the way.)
>
> Some say to charge as often as possible.
> Successful LISTers say that charging is hard on the
> batteries.
> Solution: I'll charge when I pull more than 2.5 kWh
> from the pack.
I've never been able to make up my mind on this one. Since I'm
about 1/3 to 1/2 way through my pack every work night commute,
and with my steep hill climb at the end, I think best to charge
every night. I also don't think that it is a good idea to leave
Pb-acid batteries partially discharged for more than a few days.
So even if I decided to follow the plan of not charging every
night till I reach 50% discharged (that is 50% of my usable
amp-hours being gone), and I was only doing short trips, like
maybe taking 10% of the amp-hours, and then not use the car for
several days - I don't think I'd let the car sit without a charge
past day five or so. However, Roland seems to be saying maybe
two weeks is ok. I also don't know how the high amp draw of my
hill plays into this, as I'm sure that 300-350A will build up the
lead sulfate in a hurry. (Incidentally, my new rule when I come
home from work at night, since about half the time there is no
one else coming up the hill at that time, is to try to hold the
battery amps to a rough max of 250. I'll only be going 12 mph or
so, and it drags the hill out for a longer length of time, but I
think it may be worth it, to hold it down. It's about 30-45
seconds up the steep, hi-amp portion of the hill. Other hills, I
have no choice, since I'm out in traffic, so 300-350A for 30
seconds to a minute can happen at least once a day.)
>
> In general, I'll be relying more on SG than voltage
> from now on.
>
> I will start my charge at C/10, not the max I can pull
> from the charger.
>
> I'll be using 165Ah, not the high-capacity 178 Ah for
> less messiness.
8V'ers aren't going to last as long as 6V'ers, although Lynn
Adams in CO did some phenomenal things with his 8V'ers. Your own
8V mileage may not be that far off the "average" mark.
>
> I will add a small section of tubing to my filler
> bottle, so that my levels of electrolyte will now be
> lower than they have been in the past. It needs to be
> 1/4" below the plastic tab in the well on 80% complete
> charge; just covering the plates pre-charge, and the
> bottle allows it to get higher than that.
>
> Other ideas welcomed.
>
> In summary I'm still stunned that battery care and
> feeding has required more effort and reading than
> building the car in the first place. Hopefully this
> will be my next floodie pack, before that "next
> battery technology... right around the corner" comes
> out!
I'm right with you on the feeling stunned. I am hopeful that
I'll get my 10-12K miles on this pack, but if I don't, and the
pack goes over the edge like at or before 8-9K miles, I'm very
likely to abandon my EV efforts. Especially with the price of
batteries now, it just seems like a big crapshoot. I feel like
I'm walking on a picket fence, charging too hard or not enough.
There's too many variables, too many gotchas. Walking or riding
a bike is a lot cheaper, although this hill back up to the apt
will be brutal, especially if I have to ride it at night and in
the rain (at night is when my work shift ends). And I wouldn't
wait for that magic next chemistry. I was telling myself on pack
1 back in the mid 90s that I was hoping this was going to be my
one and only Pb-acid pack, and that I was looking forward to a
nice NiMH pack. Well I'm on pack 3 some ten years later, and
NiMH, Lithium, and all the other magic stuff is as far off on the
horizon as it ever was. And even if you do a magic pack into
your EV, you're still likely going to have to have a fairly
sophisticated BMS to go with it, which is big bucks and more
work.
Tomorrow's (Sunday) monthly battery maintenance session may be
pivotal. If I see that I haven't any cells "go to water" and
that things are starting to move in a positive direction, I'll
feel like I've got one step up the steep slope to that 10K summit
ridge; otherwise, it will probably be a rather disparing scene
slithering down into the crevasse of battery death - yes, I just
did see the DVD of "Touching the Void", an Andean climbing epic,
after reading the book - I highly recommend it.
Best of luck on your battery journeys,
Chuck
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Maybe not milestones but significant events:
1. "Who killed electric Car?" debut
2. Monster Garage Episode and using portable handtool
batteries.
3. AS A WHOLE the increased visibility of blogs
regarding electric vehicle builds
Now expect the usual "Make-a-wish" battery suggestions
and "Insert-name-of-protohype" vehicles from other
listers.
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I thought it might be good if we could use the
> collective consciousness of
> the EV List to come up with a list of the top ten EV
> milestones for 2006.
> Also maybe a wish list for 2007. What do you folks
> think? You must have some
> idea of what you think would be on this list.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> EV Parts, Inc.
> www.evparts.com
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.15.29/608 -
> Release Date: 12/29/2006
>
>
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On 30 Dec 2006 at 12:11, Peter Eckhoff wrote:
> If $45K is their price point and the chassis is Korean made, Kia has
> SUV's in the low to mid 20's (with an ICE).
Phoenix apparently aren't saying, but from the appearance of their gliders,
I'm pretty sure that they are sourced from Ssanygyong Motor. Our European
correspondents will probably recognize the name from the Musso SUV.
Ssangyong's SUVs have been very popular in Korea, particularly the Musso, so
I expect that they are fairly competitive in price.
I recall that a couple of years ago someone here in the US was selling (or
trying to sell) a Musso conversion as an NEV. Probably it hadn't passed
FMVSS, but an NEV like that would be a pretty hard sell. If Phoenix gets
them approved by the feds, they can probably sell them if the price is
reasonable for the vehicle's capabilities.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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** Reply to message from "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Sat, 30
Dec 2006 09:30:28 -0800
I am also buying parts for my first EV. I am taking a similar approach to what
you have described.
An 11 inch motor with no tranny.
144 volt pack
5.38 rear axle ratio. (I may change this to 6.13)
As this is intended as a city car, I will rarely ever go faster than 40 mph.
The top speed would be easily over 70.
For a controller, I like the contactor type circuit that lets you select
between 72 and 144 volt.
In place of the "starting resistor" I plan to use an alltrax 72 volt
controller.
Don't be discouraged. Build your car. I think that you will want lower gear
ratio though.
Dale Curren
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According to Newsweek, December 18, 2006, Page 86, it will be. Is this true?
Where are people going to get the fuel to run that thing?
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Peter has some good points ,,, I'll add that I had an 11 in my Mitsubishie PU
with a 2k 300v running at 284v and yes it did very will leaving it in 4th
,,,seen hear smoking the wheels in 4th http://www.grassrootsev.com/mits.htm
I then sold the 2k and put in a 1k the difference was big ,,, even in 2ed it
didn't have the off the line pick up that the 2k gave in 4th . I started using
2nd and 3 alot ... the 11 dose have 2 times the toqure as a 9 for the same amps
and volts ,, but this means 1/2 the rpm ...
Steve Clunn
>
> From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: 2006/12/30 Sat PM 01:55:17 EST
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Considering Warp11 for 85 MR2 Direct Drive
>
> I think you are over estimating some weights here. Of course it all
> depends on your chosen transaxle, but an older porsche 911/914 transaxle
> only weighs about 70 lbs.
>
> ALso torque is pretty much directly related to current, not voltage.
> Doubling the voltage allows you to force more current into the motor which
> is where you get more torque. If you are limiting yourself to 500 amps of
> current, then your torque will remain the same regardless of voltage.
> In this case the only thing the higher voltage allows you, is to continue
> to supply the same current at higher RPMs before BEMF startts to reduce
> the current draw.
>
> And your BIGGEST mistaken assumption. If you do go with a single
> reduction ratio, you need a BIGGER controller not a cheaper one.
> Remember torque is related to CURRENT. To get the high starting torque
> and hill climbing torque, you need a high current controller.
>
> > In general, I'm assuming a few things here:
> >
> > #1, Weight difference is only a minor increase overall of less than 50 lbs
> > or so given that the differential from the transaxle (guessing -150lbs
> > there) will need a suitable rear drive style replacement, reducing that
> > weight reduction by about half. Plus an 11" motor simply weighs 80 lbs
> > more
> > than the 9" I would use with a transaxle, making it probably pretty close
> > to
> > a wash.
> >
> > #2, Torque nearly doubles with voltage, so a 144V pack should provide
> > nearly
> > 300 lb-ft output from the 11" motor while keeping it under 500 amps
> > maximum
> > draw. Direct driven through a 4.11:1 rear end, that's roughly 1200 lb-ft
> > to
> > the axles. Working that backwards through the first gear ratio of the
> > outgoing transmission of 13.66:1 overall, that should give me performance
> > off the line equivalent to having about 88 lb-ft of input vs. the stock
> > 105
> > lb-ft. Considering that it's instantaneous, it should feel at least as
> > strong as stock and have plenty of hill climbing power for all but the
> > steepest inclines. (But for autocross and my short flat commute, it's
> > unlikely to see any hill duty.)
> >
> > I'm assuming that for commuting, I'd rarely need to exceed even 100-150
> > amps
> > for reasonable acceleration with no highway travel.
> >
> > #3, My cost difference is about $1000 more, assuming salvage parts for the
> > rear end can be found at a reasonable price, and I can defer some expense
> > of
> > a transmission adapter by using the Turbo 400 yoke supplied by EV Parts.
> > I'm also assuming that I can get by with a less robust controller like the
> > Curtis 1231c (so maybe just a 120V pack), knocking some of the expense off
> > of what it would cost to get similar direct drive performance out of a
> > smaller motor.
> >
> >
> > The goal of this project is to have:
> >
> > - Stock-like acceleration
> > - 20-30 mile maximum working range
> > - Under 500 lb weight penalty vs. stock (total curb weight under 3000 lbs
> > post conversion)
> > - Highway speed capability up to 75 mph or so
> >
> > I'm willing to compromise range somewhat in order to meet the other
> > conditions. From what I've read here and elsewhere, these seem reasonable
> > targets to shoot for.
> >
> > So can anyone punch any serious holes in my assumptions and expectations?
> >
> >
> > - Kip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
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