EV Digest 6258
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Honda FCX available for purchase in 2008????
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) stators: 110mm/48slot or 84mm/36, 58mm/24, 35mm/18, 16mm/9
by "Ron van Sommeren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Final tally: 2.3 years; 7,128 miles before murder. New strategies for
next USB pack
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: [EV] Re: Final tally: 2.3 years; 7,128 miles before murder. New
strategies for next USB pack
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Series Parallel Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Series Parallel Batteries and switching frequency of controls
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) GE Controller switching freq (was Re: Series Parallel Batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Honda FCX available for purchase in 2008????
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Series Parallel Batteries and switching frequency of controls
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Honda FCX available for purchase in 2008????
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Tax Time
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Honda FCX available for purchase in 2008????
by Tony Hwang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Recycled 4/0, 0000 guage cables
by "Harry Houck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV Milestones for 2006
by "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Circuit Breaker and Contactor
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) OT, Re: Gens in EV's, Re: Current Eliminator news
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV Milestones for 2006, EV Album Submissions
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: [EV] EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: [EV] EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Hairball control wire sizing
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by Lawrence Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Honda has a device that will go with the car, which
hooks up to your natural gas line. It provides your
house with hot water, electricity, and hydrogen for
the car; releases the leftover CO2;
http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060108FCX/04.html
--- Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> According to Newsweek, December 18, 2006, Page 86,
> it will be. Is this true? Where are people going
> to get the fuel to run that thing?
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Goedendag,
Pontus Claesson (a.ka. runnjarn in www.yahoogroups.com/group/lrk-torquemax)
ordered 'some' stators. The NO18 sheet is expensive so he also has smaller
sizes made:
48 slot OD 110 mm
36 slot OD 84 mm
24 slot OD 58 mm
18 slot OD 35 mm
9 slot OD 16 mm
More information and ordering
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=612543#post6638977
Vriendelijke groeten ;-) Ron van Sommeren
14th.int. electric fly-in, Aug 26, the Netherlands
http://home.hetnet.nl/~ronvans/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
7000 mi./30 mpg = 233 gal. 233.3 = $583 at 2.50 gal
avg. Toss in an oil change or two for $40 is $621.
Divide by 2.3 years = $270/yr. if the Civvy was still
an ICE.
Batts. were 1270 at the time, + $72*2.3 for
electricity. That's 1435.60/2.3 years = $624 for the
EV. I stand corrected!
On the other hand, the Odyssey needed a rear mainseal
and a new manifold over the same period of time; that
was over $2000 to replace. Amortize things like that,
plus my time gassing up, which is also precious, and
it's still worth it...
> I would like to know why you say cost-effective
> compared with
> ICE. If you got 7000 miles, and you have, if I
> recall, 16 8V
> batteries for a 144V pack, and if each one of those
> batteries is
> costing, $80-100, then you're paying $1300-1600 for
> your pack.
> That's roughly 20-23 cents / mile, battery cost
> alone, on top of
> your electricity, tires, brakes, battery pack
> transportation and
> install, etc. I think the battery cost has got to
> be on the
> order of 10 cents / mile to make an EV reach parity
> with an ICE.
> Some, like Roland, are claiming much lower cost/mile
> (I recall
> Roland was getting something like 2-4 cents/mile,
> which is
> phenomenal). I admit, however, that there is a lot
> of hand
> waving when talking these #s up, as it seems rather
> hard to
> really compare the costs of running an EV vs an ICE
> vehicle.
> >
> > USB says to hold 2.587VPC for 2 hrs. to get
> bubbling
> > and complete mixing of the electrolyte.
> > Successful listers say charge until you get 2.65
> SG
> > and (within reason) ignore the dang voltage. If
> > you've done so, you'll have had bubbling and mixed
> the
> > electrolyte. I've also heard that this is almost
> an
> > equalizing charge every time.
>
> I think this 2.587 is too high for every charge
> cycle, given my
> experience with this pack I'm on now. Next pack, if
> there is
> one, will go to 14.80V/12V of cells, or 2.47VPC on
> the typical
> charge, per Roland's advice. Equalizing charge @6A
> till no
> voltage increase once a week or about every 50-75
> miles. (I am
> running US125 6V'ers, by the way.)
> >
> > Some say to charge as often as possible.
> > Successful LISTers say that charging is hard on
> the
> > batteries.
> > Solution: I'll charge when I pull more than 2.5
> kWh
> > from the pack.
>
> I've never been able to make up my mind on this one.
> Since I'm
> about 1/3 to 1/2 way through my pack every work
> night commute,
> and with my steep hill climb at the end, I think
> best to charge
> every night. I also don't think that it is a good
> idea to leave
> Pb-acid batteries partially discharged for more than
> a few days.
> So even if I decided to follow the plan of not
> charging every
> night till I reach 50% discharged (that is 50% of my
> usable
> amp-hours being gone), and I was only doing short
> trips, like
> maybe taking 10% of the amp-hours, and then not use
> the car for
> several days - I don't think I'd let the car sit
> without a charge
> past day five or so. However, Roland seems to be
> saying maybe
> two weeks is ok. I also don't know how the high amp
> draw of my
> hill plays into this, as I'm sure that 300-350A will
> build up the
> lead sulfate in a hurry. (Incidentally, my new rule
> when I come
> home from work at night, since about half the time
> there is no
> one else coming up the hill at that time, is to try
> to hold the
> battery amps to a rough max of 250. I'll only be
> going 12 mph or
> so, and it drags the hill out for a longer length of
> time, but I
> think it may be worth it, to hold it down. It's
> about 30-45
> seconds up the steep, hi-amp portion of the hill.
> Other hills, I
> have no choice, since I'm out in traffic, so
> 300-350A for 30
> seconds to a minute can happen at least once a day.)
> >
> > In general, I'll be relying more on SG than
> voltage
> > from now on.
> >
> > I will start my charge at C/10, not the max I can
> pull
> > from the charger.
> >
> > I'll be using 165Ah, not the high-capacity 178 Ah
> for
> > less messiness.
>
> 8V'ers aren't going to last as long as 6V'ers,
> although Lynn
> Adams in CO did some phenomenal things with his
> 8V'ers. Your own
> 8V mileage may not be that far off the "average"
> mark.
> >
> > I will add a small section of tubing to my filler
> > bottle, so that my levels of electrolyte will now
> be
> > lower than they have been in the past. It needs
> to be
> > 1/4" below the plastic tab in the well on 80%
> complete
> > charge; just covering the plates pre-charge, and
> the
> > bottle allows it to get higher than that.
> >
> > Other ideas welcomed.
> >
> > In summary I'm still stunned that battery care and
> > feeding has required more effort and reading than
> > building the car in the first place. Hopefully
> this
> > will be my next floodie pack, before that "next
> > battery technology... right around the corner"
> comes
> > out!
>
> I'm right with you on the feeling stunned. I am
> hopeful that
> I'll get my 10-12K miles on this pack, but if I
> don't, and the
> pack goes over the edge like at or before 8-9K
> miles, I'm very
> likely to abandon my EV efforts. Especially with
> the price of
> batteries now, it just seems like a big crapshoot.
> I feel like
> I'm walking on a picket fence, charging too hard or
> not enough.
> There's too many variables, too many gotchas.
> Walking or riding
> a bike is a lot cheaper, although this hill back up
> to the apt
> will be brutal, especially if I have to ride it at
> night
=== message truncated ===
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> On the other hand, the Odyssey needed a rear mainseal
> and a new manifold over the same period of time; that
> was over $2000 to replace. Amortize things like that,
> plus my time gassing up, which is also precious, and
> it's still worth it...
>
Maintenance issues are one of the main things that steer
me towards EVs. I mantain my own vehicles but grease under
my fingernails and oily smell is starting to bug me.
I want as grease free as possible a car...
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
| Yo.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal writes.....
Actually, as long as it's not really slow (i.e. sub audio) the motor
doesn't really care much about the switching frequency. THis is usually
determined by the controllers components.
Most modern controllers shoot for very high frequencies, i.e. over 15 khz,
but that is for ergonomic reasons.
The motor will vibrate at the applied frequency, sort of like a large
speaker. If the frquency is low enough you can here it. THis is the
infamous "whine" or "whistle" that some folks associate with older EV
designs.
Some folks actually make use of this.
I have a couple of electric RC helicopters. The brushless motor
controllers on these use the motors as a speaker for playing beeps and
tunes to tell you certain status information.
My truck uses an older GE controller that switches in the audio range and
varies the frequency to maximize efficiency and torque.
It varies switching frequency depending on duty cycle and output current.
> > > > End of Quote > > > > > >
Alright Peter, about your controller, what sort of frequency range does it
spread it's control over ? Do you know off the top of your head ?
I'm stuck with some SCR's for now, purely for financial reasons, and they
turn off in about 100uS. The maximum switching frequency I can use is therefore
about 10kHZ , but this doesn't even allow any time for duty cycle
control....I'm only guessing but I'm thinking of running with a maximum
frequency of
about 2kHZ and down to about 800Hz at slower speeds for maximum torque....does
anyone have much experience with this or be able to offer any pointers ?
The service manual for the forklift the 10kW controller panel came off had
every detail except the frequencies and didn't even list scope test routines to
verify proper operation, but I reckon just by listening to them they operate
in this sort of range. !
Happy New Year to everyone BTW,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Alright Peter, about your controller, what sort of
> frequency range does it
> spread it's control over ? Do you know off the top
> of your head ?
I think Peter has an EVT-15 control which changes it's
switching frequency from 2kHz to 4kHz.
The older GE SCR controls change from 50 to 300 Hz and
have a bell shaped duty cycle curve where it ramps at
low duty cycle at 50Hz up to a max of 300 Hz at 50%
duty and then the frequency decreases as the duty
cycle increases from 50%.
One of my first motor controls was a bipolar
transistor for Caterpillar forklift back in 1990 (it
typically ran at 750Hz). Just for fun I wrote a
program that changed PWM duty cycle with accelerator
input position. This was very interesting and could
almost be described as a musical instrument. I never
was very good with the electric guitar, but I didn't
sound half bad with the acoustic motor!!
Rod
>
> I'm stuck with some SCR's for now, purely for
> financial reasons, and they
> turn off in about 100uS. The maximum switching
> frequency I can use is therefore
> about 10kHZ , but this doesn't even allow any time
> for duty cycle
> control....I'm only guessing but I'm thinking of
> running with a maximum frequency of
> about 2kHZ and down to about 800Hz at slower speeds
> for maximum torque....does
> anyone have much experience with this or be able to
> offer any pointers ?
>
> The service manual for the forklift the 10kW
> controller panel came off had
> every detail except the frequencies and didn't even
> list scope test routines to
> verify proper operation, but I reckon just by
> listening to them they operate
> in this sort of range. !
>
> Happy New Year to everyone BTW,
> Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> My truck uses an older GE controller that switches in the audio range and
> varies the frequency to maximize efficiency and torque.
> It varies switching frequency depending on duty cycle and output current.
>
>> > > > End of Quote > > > > > >
>
> Alright Peter, about your controller, what sort of frequency range does it
> spread it's control over ? Do you know off the top of your head ?
I don't know for sure, but it sounds like it's around 1khz to 2khz
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
According to Newsweek, December 18, 2006, Page 86, it will be. Is this true? Where are people going to get the fuel to run that thing?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
From
http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/business/16346558.htm
In September, Japan's third-largest automaker unveiled its FCX Concept
fuel-cell car, which is planned for limited marketing in Japan and the
U.S. in 2008. Honda declined to say what the vehicle will cost.
"In 2018, I believe the development (of a fuel-cell car) will have been
very advanced," Fukui was quoted as saying by Kyodo in the interview in
Tokyo on Dec. 25.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOL, I've tried that with my controller. It plays sort of like a slide
whistle that doesn't shut off and has a bit of delay.
> One of my first motor controls was a bipolar
> transistor for Caterpillar forklift back in 1990 (it
> typically ran at 750Hz). Just for fun I wrote a
> program that changed PWM duty cycle with accelerator
> input position. This was very interesting and could
> almost be described as a musical instrument. I never
> was very good with the electric guitar, but I didn't
> sound half bad with the acoustic motor!!
>
> Rod
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cool, I want one. Now where did I leave the million dollars....
> Honda has a device that will go with the car, which
> hooks up to your natural gas line. It provides your
> house with hot water, electricity, and hydrogen for
> the car; releases the leftover CO2;
> http://world.honda.com/news/2006/4060108FCX/04.html
>
> --- Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> According to Newsweek, December 18, 2006, Page 86,
>> it will be. Is this true? Where are people going
>> to get the fuel to run that thing?
>> __________________________________________________
>> Do You Yahoo!?
>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
>> protection around
>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>
>>
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about it? Will this work in an EV? The only comparison that I can find
is the MetricMind car. It only has 17 farads worth. For $2500 you could have
a 1000 farad cap pack. One per battery.
LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
Features:
Amplifier Style Hybrid Capacitor
Chrome Plated Case
Capacitance : 100,000,000 micro farad (100 Farad)
Working Voltage : 16DC
Surge Voltage : 18DC
E.S.R. (Equivalent Series Resistance) : 0.0015 ohm @120hz/ 25°C
Capacitance Tolerance : ±10%
Silver Brushed Anodized Aluminum Top
Dual Blue LED Digital Display
Flashing Blue LED Light Diodes
Amplifier Style Badge
Packaged in a hinged wooden block
Dimensions: 13.4" W x 10.2" D x 2.95" H
Availability: Usually ships the same business day.
LANZAR OPTICAP1000
100 Farad Capacitor
LNZOPTICAP1000Regular price: $650.00Sale price: $249.95
Matt Milliron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For income tax reference:
Qualified electric vehicle
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f8834.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I love the look of that car, so futuristic yet not too "concepty" looking.
Looks like great aerodynamics and usage of available space. It was my favorite
car at the LA auto show.
- Tony
JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Steve Powers wrote:
> According to Newsweek, December 18, 2006, Page 86, it will be. Is this true?
> Where are people going to get the fuel to run that thing?
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
From
http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/business/16346558.htm
In September, Japan's third-largest automaker unveiled its FCX Concept
fuel-cell car, which is planned for limited marketing in Japan and the
U.S. in 2008. Honda declined to say what the vehicle will cost.
"In 2018, I believe the development (of a fuel-cell car) will have been
very advanced," Fukui was quoted as saying by Kyodo in the interview in
Tokyo on Dec. 25.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale Ulan wrote:
I'd look seriously at the Powerex intelligent power modules.
Yes; they look pretty good to me, too. You get the IGBTs, diodes,
snubber caps, gate drivers, and related control circuitry, all prebuilt
and tested.
What I don't know are their prices. Also, their data sheets on the web
leave a lot to be desired. For instance, they describe single phase and
PWM modules for DC motor drives; but all the data seems to be on full
bridge units for 3-phase AC motors.
Do you have any experience with these Powerex modules? I could see
whipping up a good control section to use one of them.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Heck of a price each ya got there...
Wonder at least how hard it'd be to strap just two into a personal
electric vehicle running 36v of SLA? Didn't see a weight anywhere, but
might be able to shed a pound by getting rid of the hinged wooden
blocks? :)
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human-Electric Hybrid Pedestrian
--- Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> How about it? Will this work in an EV? The only comparison that I
> can find is the MetricMind car. It only has 17 farads worth. For
> $2500 you could have a 1000 farad cap pack. One per battery.
>
> LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
>
> Features:
>
> Amplifier Style Hybrid Capacitor
> Chrome Plated Case
> Capacitance : 100,000,000 micro farad (100 Farad)
> Working Voltage : 16DC
> Surge Voltage : 18DC
> E.S.R. (Equivalent Series Resistance) : 0.0015 ohm @120hz/ 25°C
> Capacitance Tolerance : ±10%
> Silver Brushed Anodized Aluminum Top
> Dual Blue LED Digital Display
> Flashing Blue LED Light Diodes
> Amplifier Style Badge
> Packaged in a hinged wooden block
> Dimensions: 13.4" W x 10.2" D x 2.95" H
>
> Availability: Usually ships the same business day.
>
> LANZAR OPTICAP1000
> 100 Farad Capacitor
> LNZOPTICAP1000Regular price: $650.00Sale price: $249.95
>
>
> Matt Milliron
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$15 each plus shipping costs, 7-8 lb. box from zip code 93721.
-Harry
>>> "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12/30/06 8:26 PM >>>
How many $ each?
They look much more flexible than what my EV has; I may be interested.
- Arthur
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Sat, 2006-12-30 at 19:52 -0800, Harry Houck wrote:
> I have about fifteen 4/0, 12.5 foot long cables for sale. They're
pulled
> from mid '80's BMW's found in our dry California salvage yards. See
pics
> at http://picasaweb.google.com/Neverbody/BMWCables.
> I sell the kits to ICE modifyers but have some with corroded ends that
> EV people can slice and dice for their projects. The insulation seems
to
> be molded on, very tough. Stiffer than welding cable. I'd rather it go
> to EV people than the local recycler.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes,here is mine.happy new year
On 12/30/06, Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I wish we could put "EVAlbum hits 1000 posted EV's" on the list. Any
chance we could push for 47 more folks to post theirs by the
end of the year, who haven't yet?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been looking at contactors, fuses, and circuit breakers, and had
the idea of using a circuit breaker as a contactor by creating a setup
that can switch the breaker on and off. This would eliminate the
contactor as well as reduce the continuous power draw of the coil to it.
I'm surprised this hasn't been done before or is offered as a product,
so there must be some downside to it.
It would turn on-off much slower than a contactor, so my guess is that
might be an issue in general, but for a car, I don't see that as a problem.
In fact, I see a combination of a power-turn-on device that does a
pre-charge to the controller and once complete will turn on the breaker.
The breaker will still break if over-current, but then can be turned off
electrically.
Is there some issue I'm missing?
Thanks,
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Peter and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Gens in EV's, Re: Current Eliminator news
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 00:53:54 -0700 (MST)
>Jerry doesn't bother with calculations, or measurements.
That would be a good line if it were true which by now
you know is not as my calc's were already posted first, at
least in my e mail. ;^D Maybe next time you could give me a
little time to respond than an hr or 2?
>
>Instead he bases his statements on his "vast amount of
>experience"
vs what? Not having experience? I'm sorry I've done
things Peter.
As you know I'm not great at higher math but that
doesn't mean I can't figure out things. I, like the
boatbuilders, other craftsmen of old, design by rules of
thumb, %, and known working examples, ratio's. To me this is
more accurate most times than strict calculations as you
have to verify them anyways which means I just save a step
over pure calcs.
>
>Anyone who is concerned with measurements and calculations,
>will probably have to make them on their own.
Yet I've already posted it probably before you wrote
your post. No? And why don't you ask him to explain his
calc's?
If you want to catch me Peter, at least wait till I
make a mistake!! ;^D
Jerry Dycus
>
>> According to my rough calcs with a Robin RGV12100, you'd
>> need to use no more than about 0.055KHW/mi to get this
>>sort of mpg.
>> I see the Freedom EV is a tadpole car and somewhat closer
>> to a motorcycle. I'm looking at
>>
>http://eiclub.students.mtu.edu/presentations/freedom_ev.pdf
>> and it shows a consumption of 0.120 KWh/mi. That would
>> place fuel consumption at around 46 mpg. This is of
>> course a good mpg for a sedan, but for a super-small
>>minicar I'd consider that somewhat poor.
>> What did you base your calcs on? I just pulled the specs
>> on a 10kw continuous output Robin generator, 11.6 ga
>> capacity, 8.2 hrs runtime on a tank, and 80% efficiency
>> due to controller, any battery cycling, and motor losses.
>>
>> Danny
>>
>> jerryd wrote:
>>
>>> I'll use a shunt version of the ADC A89/D+D ES21
>>>for my gen saving all that electronics with good eff with
>>>a 9hp Robin and I expect over 100mpg in the Freedom EV on
>>>long trips.
>>> But Dennis is probably just using it when a plug
>>>isn't available or gets stuck. With my 100 mile range,
>>>I'l rarely use mine.
>>> The other poster is right about installing it
>>>permanently as it makes things very difficult
>>>EPA/emissions wise. Mine will be plug in and probably
>>>rarely even in it, only for long trips. And I'll tune it
>>>with emissions equipment for very low emissions.
>>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have the ten 100 Farad capacitors in series, isn't the total
capacitance equal to 100F / 10 or 10 Farads?
Don't get me wrong, I think its a great idea to experiment with using car
audio capacitors to power an EV. But at $250 per capacitor, the cost is
twice that of a battery and it holds only a fraction of the Watt-Hours.
Can someone explain how you convert from Farads at a certain voltage to
Watt-Hours?
Bruce
Matt Milliron wrote:
> How about it? Will this work in an EV? The only comparison that I can
find is the MetricMind car. It only has 17 farads worth. For $2500 you
could have a 1000 farad cap pack. One per battery.
> LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
> Amplifier Style Hybrid Capacitor
> Capacitance : 100,000,000 micro farad (100 Farad)
> Working Voltage : 16DC
> LNZOPTICAP1000Regular price: $650.00Sale price: $249.95
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jack,
A circuit breaker is not normally switch under load. The circuit breaker is
turn on first to energize a circuit. A load is then switch on to this
circuit with its own switching devices that are rated for the load.
They are many different types of circuit breaker for different types of
loads. The circuit breaker in a home is normally a thermal type that is use
mainly for resistance loads. This type of breaker will not stand up to many
on off cycles under load.
Then there are circuit breakers for conductive load, lighting ballist,
motors with motor starters, transformers etc. Again these are normally
switch on first before a load is apply. These are normally the magnetic
type.
There are special switching type cases that look just like a circuit breaker
that provide no overload or low level fault protection, but the only
protects the unit itself. We use these as switches to turn on 277/480V high
ampere inductive lighting.
Then we get the specialty breakers that can take a very high Ampere
Interrupting Rating which get up to 250,000 AIR. Some of these types limit
the starting surge of a inductive load. These breakers are call Limitron
breakers.
I use a Limitron 400 amp fuse in my EV that has a 250,000 AIR.
A welder that we have, is a 100 amp 208 volt 3 phase rotary type, would not
hold on a 100 amp circuit breaker or even a standard magnetic trip circuit
breaker. On start up the Duty Cycle of a 100 amp motor is about 400 amp
where a 400 amp standard circuit breaker would hold.
The 400 amp circuit breaker will not hold up under constant turning on and
off, before it will trip open. The magnetic contactors at the load with
overload relays are design to start up this unit.
A circuit breaker call a MAG-GARD - Motor Circuit Protector is a circuit
breakers with instantaneous trip magnetic that have adjustments to set the
magnetic trip level. This is the type you would use for a motor.
Assuming the maximum motor amp rating for a EV would be at 400 amps, lets
see what a 400 amp motor breakers would cost at wholesale:
This size circuit breaker is a LAL 400 amp frame with interrupting trips
range from 500 to 4000 amp. The cost of this circuit breaker is $2932.00
You can add a motorize unit and remote electrical or cable operator,
indicators, micro switches to these types of circuit breakers.
Again, the circuit breaker specifications call for these circuits breakers
to be use in conjunction with a contactor which is using for starting a
motor.
We could also use a Limitron breaker which does limit the starting surge of
a motor, we use these on 100 amp 240 v three phase rotary welders that take
400 amp starting surge, but a 1000 amp Zilla is cheaper then this unit.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 11:20 AM
Subject: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
> I've been looking at contactors, fuses, and circuit breakers, and had
> the idea of using a circuit breaker as a contactor by creating a setup
> that can switch the breaker on and off. This would eliminate the
> contactor as well as reduce the continuous power draw of the coil to it.
>
> I'm surprised this hasn't been done before or is offered as a product,
> so there must be some downside to it.
>
> It would turn on-off much slower than a contactor, so my guess is that
> might be an issue in general, but for a car, I don't see that as a
> problem.
> In fact, I see a combination of a power-turn-on device that does a
> pre-charge to the controller and once complete will turn on the breaker.
> The breaker will still break if over-current, but then can be turned off
> electrically.
>
> Is there some issue I'm missing?
>
> Thanks,
> Jack
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just added my electric tandem Motobecane which is a very strange creature
indeed! It hasn't been posted yet though.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "ROBERT GOUDREAU" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 10:38 AM
Subject: Re: EV Milestones for 2006
Yes,here is mine.happy new year
On 12/30/06, Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I wish we could put "EVAlbum hits 1000 posted EV's" on the list. Any
chance we could push for 47 more folks to post theirs by the
end of the year, who haven't yet?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Yes, I was hoping to get to the 1000 entry point before the end of
the year, but that looks like it isn't going to happen. We actually
have 1006 entries at the moment, but about 35 are still waiting for
their owners to upload pictures There are also 9 entries that have
been retired. Right now we are having some sort of process error so
the thumbnails aren't loading for entries higher than 999. I have
passed the issue on to Jerry Halstead, he is the code guru that
really made the updated Album work. Hopefully he can get the problem
resolved soon.
BTW, if anyone has a problem loading pictures to their existing
pages, feel free to email them to me directly and I will try to get
them posted for you.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
At 08:53 PM 12/30/2006, you wrote:
I wish we could put "EVAlbum hits 1000 posted EV's" on the
list. Any chance we could push for 47 more folks to post theirs by the
end of the year, who haven't yet?
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce
The energy in a capacitor ( in joules, or watt-seconds) = 1/2 x C x
Voltage^2
(Or, 1/2 x C x Voltage x Voltage)
So, for example, a 100 farad, 16 volt capacitor could hold 1/2 x 100 x 16 x
16 joules= 12800 joules. That's 12800 watt-seconds, or about 3 1/2
watt-hours.
So, for $249.95 ( If I'm reading this right) an EV would go about 60 feet
(at 300 w-hr/ mile). And, that;s only if you can get ALL the energy out (
the last bit of energy is at close to zero voltage, so this is not simple to
do)
The maximum energy that can be stored in a given capacitor is the same,
regardless of how you combine them with others( in series or parallel
strings) .
Phil
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006
11:40:54 -0800
If you have the ten 100 Farad capacitors in series, isn't the total
capacitance equal to 100F / 10 or 10 Farads?
Don't get me wrong, I think its a great idea to experiment with using car
audio capacitors to power an EV. But at $250 per capacitor, the cost is
twice that of a battery and it holds only a fraction of the Watt-Hours.
Can someone explain how you convert from Farads at a certain voltage to
Watt-Hours?
Bruce
Matt Milliron wrote:
> How about it? Will this work in an EV? The only comparison that I
can
find is the MetricMind car. It only has 17 farads worth. For $2500 you
could have a 1000 farad cap pack. One per battery.
> LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
> Amplifier Style Hybrid Capacitor
> Capacitance : 100,000,000 micro farad (100 Farad)
> Working Voltage : 16DC
> LNZOPTICAP1000Regular price: $650.00Sale price: $249.95
_________________________________________________________________
Dave vs. Carl: The Insignificant Championship Series. Who will win?
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwsp0070000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://davevscarl.spaces.live.com/?icid=T001MSN38C07001
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> BTW, if anyone has a problem loading pictures to their existing
> pages, feel free to email them to me directly and I will try to get
> them posted for you.
>
Mike... I added my to be electrical Citroen and It got assigned
the number '1003'. I added a picture and I can see it when I click on
'Images' but the 'preview' does not show it.
I think they are getting uploaded ok, but the php script that
shows them is broken.
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
| Yo.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edwardo wrote:
>
> BTW, if anyone has a problem loading pictures to their existing
> pages, feel free to email them to me directly and I will try to get
> them posted for you.
>
Mike... I added my to be electrical Citroen and It got assigned
the number '1003'. I added a picture and I can see it when I click on
'Images' but the 'preview' does not show it.
I think they are getting uploaded ok, but the php script that
shows them is broken.
Yes, that is what I passed on to Jerry. He wrote the php scripts for
the site. Entries up to 999 work, but not higher.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What gage wire do folks use for control wires that feed into the
Zilla's hairball, as well os other wiring for relays and such?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Watt-hours is a measurement of energy
Energy (W-hr) = Energy (J) / 3600
Energy (J) = Voltage (V) * Charge (C)
Charge (C) = Capacitance (F) * Voltage (V)
ergo:
Energy (J) = Voltage (V) * Capacitance (F) * Voltage (V)
= V^2 * F
Energy (W-hr) = Energy (J) / 3600
Put it all together:
Energy (W-hr) = ( V^2 * F ) / 3600
= (12^2 * 100) / 3600
= 4 W-hr
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bruce
Sent: December 31, 2006 11:41 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
If you have the ten 100 Farad capacitors in series, isn't the total
capacitance equal to 100F / 10 or 10 Farads?
Don't get me wrong, I think its a great idea to experiment with using car
audio capacitors to power an EV. But at $250 per capacitor, the cost is
twice that of a battery and it holds only a fraction of the Watt-Hours.
Can someone explain how you convert from Farads at a certain voltage to
Watt-Hours?
Bruce
Matt Milliron wrote:
> How about it? Will this work in an EV? The only comparison that I
> can
find is the MetricMind car. It only has 17 farads worth. For $2500 you
could have a 1000 farad cap pack. One per battery.
> LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor Amplifier Style Hybrid
> Capacitor Capacitance : 100,000,000 micro farad (100 Farad) Working
> Voltage : 16DC LNZOPTICAP1000Regular price: $650.00Sale price: $249.95
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No 10 in series is 100 F at 160 volts, 10 in parallel would be 1000 F at
16v.
Lawrence
Bruce wrote:
If you have the ten 100 Farad capacitors in series, isn't the total
capacitance equal to 100F / 10 or 10 Farads?
Don't get me wrong, I think its a great idea to experiment with using car
audio capacitors to power an EV. But at $250 per capacitor, the cost is
twice that of a battery and it holds only a fraction of the Watt-Hours.
Can someone explain how you convert from Farads at a certain voltage to
Watt-Hours?
Bruce
Matt Milliron wrote:
How about it? Will this work in an EV? The only comparison that I can
find is the MetricMind car. It only has 17 farads worth. For $2500 you
could have a 1000 farad cap pack. One per battery.
LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
Amplifier Style Hybrid Capacitor
Capacitance : 100,000,000 micro farad (100 Farad)
Working Voltage : 16DC
LNZOPTICAP1000Regular price: $650.00Sale price: $249.95
--- End Message ---
