EV Digest 6259
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) OT: Auto museums listed in Google Directory listings
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Hairball control wire sizing
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Electric Isuzu
by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) battery rebuilding, desulfating, additives,
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Electric for diesel swap in sailboat.
by "Paul Hannah" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: [EV] EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electric for diesel swap in sailboat.
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [EV] Re: [EV] EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EV Milestones for 2006
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) 30k miles on SAFT 100 MRE NiCads (was: Final tally: 2.3
years; 7,128 miles before murder.)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by dale henderson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Hairball control wire sizing ( way OT - Wire cover composition)
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) rest of story on electric squirrel nickname
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: [EV] EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Hairball control wire sizing
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Seems to me most of the EV record is still "history" ( BE, or Before
EVDL) . I just stumbled across a link to a Google Directories for Auto
Museums... dozens of auto museums. `Spect some or most will have EV
content. You know, `case anyone is travelling, for example. :)
http://www.google.com/Top/Reference/Museums/Transportation/Automobiles/
or tiny:
http://tinyurl.com/y4tnzp
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human-Electric Hybrid Pedestrian
"...unique collection of...humble vehicles...reminders of a way of life
that is rapidly disappearing."
http://www.bammot.org.uk/elec.asp
"Built in Hawaii, the 1986 Sunray was representative of the electric
cars that proliferated after the 1973 fuel crisis."
http://www.petersen.org/default.cfm?DocID=1014&cat=Alternative%20Power&ExhibitID=482&index=5
or tiny:
http://tinyurl.com/yy8bmp
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--- Begin Message ---
Roland, thanks for the info.
Certainly a circuit breaker is designed to switch OFF under load.
As an on/off switch for an EV it would not switched ON under load when
used with a precharge circuit that only switches it on once a precharge
completes, and thus no load.
The kind of breaker I'm talking about is for example the one sold by
evparts, http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?code=cb2410
which is $220. The 400amp for 22 seconds seems a bit low, but maybe
not. Electromotive has an Airpax unit
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/circtbkr.shtml that does 400amp for 5
minutes. $219. What circuit breaker is commonly used in EVs?
But perhaps what I have overlooked is these breakers will wear out when
turned on/off a few times a day.
Requiring some digging, I found the specs on what looks like the Airpax
unit sold by Electromotive,
http://www.airpax.net/site/utilities/eliterature/pdfs/Airpax_PPP_JLE_1205.pdf
and it indicates an "endurance" spec of minimum 5,000 mechanical
operations. 365 * 4 = 1460, which is a lifetime of about 3.4 years.
Not too bad, replace it when you replace batteries..
Jack
Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello Jack,
A circuit breaker is not normally switch under load. The circuit breaker is
turn on first to energize a circuit. A load is then switch on to this
circuit with its own switching devices that are rated for the load.
They are many different types of circuit breaker for different types of
loads. The circuit breaker in a home is normally a thermal type that is use
mainly for resistance loads. This type of breaker will not stand up to many
on off cycles under load.
Then there are circuit breakers for conductive load, lighting ballist,
motors with motor starters, transformers etc. Again these are normally
switch on first before a load is apply. These are normally the magnetic
type.
There are special switching type cases that look just like a circuit breaker
that provide no overload or low level fault protection, but the only
protects the unit itself. We use these as switches to turn on 277/480V high
ampere inductive lighting.
Then we get the specialty breakers that can take a very high Ampere
Interrupting Rating which get up to 250,000 AIR. Some of these types limit
the starting surge of a inductive load. These breakers are call Limitron
breakers.
I use a Limitron 400 amp fuse in my EV that has a 250,000 AIR.
A welder that we have, is a 100 amp 208 volt 3 phase rotary type, would not
hold on a 100 amp circuit breaker or even a standard magnetic trip circuit
breaker. On start up the Duty Cycle of a 100 amp motor is about 400 amp
where a 400 amp standard circuit breaker would hold.
The 400 amp circuit breaker will not hold up under constant turning on and
off, before it will trip open. The magnetic contactors at the load with
overload relays are design to start up this unit.
A circuit breaker call a MAG-GARD - Motor Circuit Protector is a circuit
breakers with instantaneous trip magnetic that have adjustments to set the
magnetic trip level. This is the type you would use for a motor.
Assuming the maximum motor amp rating for a EV would be at 400 amps, lets
see what a 400 amp motor breakers would cost at wholesale:
This size circuit breaker is a LAL 400 amp frame with interrupting trips
range from 500 to 4000 amp. The cost of this circuit breaker is $2932.00
You can add a motorize unit and remote electrical or cable operator,
indicators, micro switches to these types of circuit breakers.
Again, the circuit breaker specifications call for these circuits breakers
to be use in conjunction with a contactor which is using for starting a
motor.
We could also use a Limitron breaker which does limit the starting surge of
a motor, we use these on 100 amp 240 v three phase rotary welders that take
400 amp starting surge, but a 1000 amp Zilla is cheaper then this unit.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 11:20 AM
Subject: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
I've been looking at contactors, fuses, and circuit breakers, and had
the idea of using a circuit breaker as a contactor by creating a setup
that can switch the breaker on and off. This would eliminate the
contactor as well as reduce the continuous power draw of the coil to it.
I'm surprised this hasn't been done before or is offered as a product,
so there must be some downside to it.
It would turn on-off much slower than a contactor, so my guess is that
might be an issue in general, but for a car, I don't see that as a
problem.
In fact, I see a combination of a power-turn-on device that does a
pre-charge to the controller and once complete will turn on the breaker.
The breaker will still break if over-current, but then can be turned off
electrically.
Is there some issue I'm missing?
Thanks,
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>If you have the ten 100 Farad capacitors in series, isn't the total
>capacitance equal to 100F / 10 or 10 Farads?
Yes, that's right.
Can someone explain how you convert from Farads at a certain voltage to
Watt-Hours?
E = 1/2 * C * (V^2)
so for a single capacitor (14V, 100F)
E = 1/2 * 100F * (14 * 14)
E = 50 * 196 J
E = 9800 J
E = 2.72 W*h
To convert from J to W*h, divide by 3600.
One J is a watt * second.
So one of those capacitors (100 Farads) at 14 volts holds 9800J of energy
or 2.72 W*h. You can't draw out all of that energy because that assumes
the termination of discharge is at zero volts.
If you can charge to 14V and discharge to 6V, you can ge 8000 J out or
2.2 W*h. To hold the equivalent amount of charge of, say, a 50 Ah lead-acid
battery, you'd need something like 200 or so of these capacitors.
Victor's capacitor stack holds something like 370 W*h - just over half of
that in a 50 Ah lead-acid battery which holds somewhere between 500 and
600 W*h. Good for a reserve 'sponge' but not a lot of driving range here.
It's a pretty expensive form of energy storage, at $250 a piece. To hold
the equivalent amount of energy that a single Optima or Orbital holds,
you'd need around $50,000. To get the energy equivalent of two of these
batteries, you could buy an already-engineered Li*Ion pack, and a really
nice looking car to go around it (if you don't mind waiting until 2008
for it).
You can either multiply the energy per cell times the number of cells,
OR calculate the total capacitance and total voltage and feed them into
the formula. The result will be the same.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Um...capacitance divides in series...it's the opposite of resistance...
Replies should *add* knowledge to the topic, not *subtract* it...
10F is correct for (10) 100F capacitors in series.
If it seems like something is disappearing by that theory, just remember
that the energy stored in a capacitor goes up with the *square* of
voltage. The ^2 cancels with the ^-1 to become ^1.
- Arthur
On Sun, 2006-12-31 at 12:53 -0800, Lawrence Harris wrote:
> No 10 in series is 100 F at 160 volts, 10 in parallel would be 1000 F at
> 16v.
>
> Lawrence
>
> Bruce wrote:
> > If you have the ten 100 Farad capacitors in series, isn't the total
> > capacitance equal to 100F / 10 or 10 Farads?
> >
> > Don't get me wrong, I think its a great idea to experiment with using car
> > audio capacitors to power an EV. But at $250 per capacitor, the cost is
> > twice that of a battery and it holds only a fraction of the Watt-Hours.
> >
> > Can someone explain how you convert from Farads at a certain voltage to
> > Watt-Hours?
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> > Matt Milliron wrote:
> >
> >> How about it? Will this work in an EV? The only comparison that I can
> >>
> > find is the MetricMind car. It only has 17 farads worth. For $2500 you
> > could have a 1000 farad cap pack. One per battery.
> >
> >> LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
> >> Amplifier Style Hybrid Capacitor
> >> Capacitance : 100,000,000 micro farad (100 Farad)
> >> Working Voltage : 16DC
> >> LNZOPTICAP1000Regular price: $650.00Sale price: $249.95
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can get these Airpax AIR-250A-160V for $30 ea at
http://www.solarseller.com/dc_circuit_breakers__dc_circuit_breaker_ul_listed_to_125_volts_dc.htm
says 59 in stock.
Last year he had a deal where I was able to buy a six pack for $20 ea. I have
parallel breakers in my 192V rig. They'll hold
1000A easy for several seconds. I only had them pop once after several hard
accelerations during 0-60mph testing. The 4 I have
extra will go in future projects.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Jack Murray
> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 12:55 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
>
>
> Roland, thanks for the info.
>
> Certainly a circuit breaker is designed to switch OFF under load.
> As an on/off switch for an EV it would not switched ON under load when
> used with a precharge circuit that only switches it on once a precharge
> completes, and thus no load.
> The kind of breaker I'm talking about is for example the one sold by
> evparts, http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?code=cb2410
> which is $220. The 400amp for 22 seconds seems a bit low, but maybe
> not. Electromotive has an Airpax unit
> http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/circtbkr.shtml that does 400amp for 5
> minutes. $219. What circuit breaker is commonly used in EVs?
>
> But perhaps what I have overlooked is these breakers will wear out when
> turned on/off a few times a day.
> Requiring some digging, I found the specs on what looks like the Airpax
> unit sold by Electromotive,
> http://www.airpax.net/site/utilities/eliterature/pdfs/Airpax_PPP_JLE_1205.pdf
> and it indicates an "endurance" spec of minimum 5,000 mechanical
> operations. 365 * 4 = 1460, which is a lifetime of about 3.4 years.
> Not too bad, replace it when you replace batteries..
>
> Jack
>
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Jack,
> >
> > A circuit breaker is not normally switch under load. The circuit breaker is
> > turn on first to energize a circuit. A load is then switch on to this
> > circuit with its own switching devices that are rated for the load.
> >
> > They are many different types of circuit breaker for different types of
> > loads. The circuit breaker in a home is normally a thermal type that is use
> > mainly for resistance loads. This type of breaker will not stand up to many
> > on off cycles under load.
> >
> > Then there are circuit breakers for conductive load, lighting ballist,
> > motors with motor starters, transformers etc. Again these are normally
> > switch on first before a load is apply. These are normally the magnetic
> > type.
> >
> > There are special switching type cases that look just like a circuit breaker
> > that provide no overload or low level fault protection, but the only
> > protects the unit itself. We use these as switches to turn on 277/480V high
> > ampere inductive lighting.
> >
> > Then we get the specialty breakers that can take a very high Ampere
> > Interrupting Rating which get up to 250,000 AIR. Some of these types limit
> > the starting surge of a inductive load. These breakers are call Limitron
> > breakers.
> >
> > I use a Limitron 400 amp fuse in my EV that has a 250,000 AIR.
> >
> > A welder that we have, is a 100 amp 208 volt 3 phase rotary type, would not
> > hold on a 100 amp circuit breaker or even a standard magnetic trip circuit
> > breaker. On start up the Duty Cycle of a 100 amp motor is about 400 amp
> > where a 400 amp standard circuit breaker would hold.
> >
> > The 400 amp circuit breaker will not hold up under constant turning on and
> > off, before it will trip open. The magnetic contactors at the load with
> > overload relays are design to start up this unit.
> >
> > A circuit breaker call a MAG-GARD - Motor Circuit Protector is a circuit
> > breakers with instantaneous trip magnetic that have adjustments to set the
> > magnetic trip level. This is the type you would use for a motor.
> >
> > Assuming the maximum motor amp rating for a EV would be at 400 amps, lets
> > see what a 400 amp motor breakers would cost at wholesale:
> >
> > This size circuit breaker is a LAL 400 amp frame with interrupting trips
> > range from 500 to 4000 amp. The cost of this circuit breaker is $2932.00
> >
> > You can add a motorize unit and remote electrical or cable operator,
> > indicators, micro switches to these types of circuit breakers.
> >
> > Again, the circuit breaker specifications call for these circuits breakers
> > to be use in conjunction with a contactor which is using for starting a
> > motor.
> >
> > We could also use a Limitron breaker which does limit the starting surge of
> > a motor, we use these on 100 amp 240 v three phase rotary welders that take
> > 400 amp starting surge, but a 1000 amp Zilla is cheaper then this unit.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 11:20 AM
> > Subject: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
> >
> >
> >
> >>I've been looking at contactors, fuses, and circuit breakers, and had
> >>the idea of using a circuit breaker as a contactor by creating a setup
> >>that can switch the breaker on and off. This would eliminate the
> >>contactor as well as reduce the continuous power draw of the coil to it.
> >>
> >>I'm surprised this hasn't been done before or is offered as a product,
> >>so there must be some downside to it.
> >>
> >>It would turn on-off much slower than a contactor, so my guess is that
> >>might be an issue in general, but for a car, I don't see that as a
> >>problem.
> >>In fact, I see a combination of a power-turn-on device that does a
> >>pre-charge to the controller and once complete will turn on the breaker.
> >>The breaker will still break if over-current, but then can be turned off
> >>electrically.
> >>
> >>Is there some issue I'm missing?
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>Jack
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack Murray wrote:
I've been looking at contactors, fuses, and circuit breakers, and had
the idea of using a circuit breaker as a contactor by creating a setup
that can switch the breaker on and off. This would eliminate the
contactor as well as reduce the continuous power draw of the coil to it.
Is there some issue I'm missing?
Contactors are built to break power vastly more times; from 100,000 to
1,000,000 times at rated load (again, depending on the contactor and
current being broken).
Circuit breakers are only built to break power a limited number of
times. It could be 100, or even 1 cycle, depending on the breaker and
the amount of current being broken. So, if you use a circuit breaker as
a switch, you can expect it to wear out rather quickly. So, they make a
pretty expensive switch!
Circuit breakers make sense as switches when you only switch them on/off
at zero current, and only do so perhaps once a day (such as to turn your
EV on/off, or as a service disconnect).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce wrote:
>> If you have the ten 100 Farad capacitors in series, isn't the
>> total capacitance equal to 100F / 10, or 10 Farads?
Lawrence Harris wrote:
No; 10 in series is 100 F at 160 volts. 10 in parallel would be
1000 F at 16v.
No; Bruce is right, Lawrence. The capacitance of N equal-value
capacitors in series is 1/N. The general equation is:
Ctotal = 1 / (1/C1 + 1/C2 + 1/C3 + 1/Cn)
This means ten 100 farad capacitors in series have a capacitance of
100F/10 = 10 farads.
Can someone explain how you convert from Farads at a certain
voltage to Watt-Hours?
Certainly. The energy stored in a capacitor is
E = 0.5 x C x V^2 where E = energy in joules or watt-seconds
C = capacitance in farads
V = voltage in volts
So, if the 100 farad capacitor mentioned in this thread was charged up
to 16 volts, it would store
E = 0.5 x 100 x 16^2
= 12800 watt-seconds
= 12800 / 3600 = 3.55 watt-hours
For reference, a 1.5v 1ah AA battery would store
E = 1.25v * 1amphour = 1.25 watt-hours
Kind of tells you why we don't use capacitors to replace batteries,
doesn't it?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What's the benefit of having a capacitor and battery combo?
On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 2:08 pm, Lock Hughes wrote:
Heck of a price each ya got there...
Wonder at least how hard it'd be to strap just two into a personal
electric vehicle running 36v of SLA? Didn't see a weight anywhere, but
might be able to shed a pound by getting rid of the hinged wooden
blocks? :)
tks
Lock
Toronto
Human-Electric Hybrid Pedestrian
--- Matt Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:36 PM
Subject: Hairball control wire sizing
> What gage wire do folks use for control wires that feed into the
> Zilla's hairball, as well os other wiring for relays and such?
>
Hello John,
The wire size depends on the ampere and the length of run of the circuit.
I normally use No. 18, 16 and 10 AWG copper stranded 600 volt rated Machine
Tool Wire. Wire will be mark MRW on it. I do not use the nylon cover wire
which is a type THHN-MTW or TF fixture wire. These are too stiff and does
not lay and form nice.
The control wires should be at the highest value of any wire that may be
higher than the other wires. If you bundle 12 volt wires with a 200 volts
wires, the insulation all wires shall be at the same voltage rating.
Note the word SHALL. We use shall in all our electrical specifications so
now it becomes mandatory to do for circuit safety.
I use the No 16 AWG wire on Pin# 1 to 5.
Pin# 6 & 7 is the shield cable that comes with the throttle potentiometer,
this looks like a No 18 tin AWG strand wire.
Pin# 9 to 18 could be either No. Awg 18 or 16.
The Speed Sensor Pin# 19 to 22 is a shield cable with either No. Awg 18 or
16.
For the Pre-Charger circuit Pin# 25 and 27, I use a No. AWG 10 wire. This
wire to the contactors are only protected by the main circuit breaker or
main fuse. The No. Awg 10 wire will with stand a short circuit better than
a smaller one.
The length of wire circuit is about the same as the ampere rating for a 1 to
3% voltage drop.
Example: If a wire ampere rating is 10 amps than the maximum length of this
wire should be held to 10 feet. The length of circuit is proportional. If
you only draw 5 amps on a 10 amp rated wire, then the maximum length could
be 20 feet.
Here is the ampere rating of these size wires rated at 60 degree C.
Wire Size Ampere
No. 18 5
No. 16 10
No. 14 15
No. 12 20
No. 10 30
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been just looking at my records over the past year and reading others
post. Since I put my Electric Isuzu on the road 3rd March 2006 I have driven
it almost every day over 20 miles per day and on the weekend I will drive it
over 100 miles at times. Of course not all in one trip. But if you charge
when you get home from the store and then go again and plug in again you would
be surprized at how many miles you can go in one day. So any how I have driven
a total of 6000 mile the first year and that was not a full 12 months.
I have not had any trouble except one day I forgot to plug the inverter in and
the contactor kept dropping out on me. The 12v battery was going dead. After
I pluged it back in and used my ball point pen to get it started everything was
ok.
I guess the question I have is when I read about alot of the posts they say
that after 2 years of driving they now have 6,000 miles on their vehicle or so.
If I am putting on 6 or more thousand miles per year how long will my
batteries last?
I am using a Zivan charger and a 120 volt pack of Interstate us2200 batteries.
I have to water them every 50 days or so and it is nice to just come home and
plug in the batteries and not worry about what is happening. This has been
about the best thing I have ever done.
It was not that hard to convert and I don't do alot of fussing with it. It was
just about plug and play.
Tom Carpenter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
smooth the waters... for acceleration, to take the strain off the SLA,
which take over after the caps sag. SLA for distance, caps for kick?
tks
L
--- GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What's the benefit of having a capacitor and battery combo?
>
> On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 2:08 pm, Lock Hughes wrote:
> > Heck of a price each ya got there...
> > Wonder at least how hard it'd be to strap just two into a personal
> > electric vehicle running 36v of SLA? Didn't see a weight anywhere,
> but
> > might be able to shed a pound by getting rid of the hinged wooden
> > blocks? :)
> > tks
> > Lock
> > Toronto
> > Human-Electric Hybrid Pedestrian
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm sure many have tried various things to bring their old batteries back to
life. Do any of these things actually work?
What about battery rebuilding? I read about it, but are there actually
people who do this? I am having a lot of sticker shock on a new set of
T-875's. The prices are about 3x what they were 5-7 years ago ....
Steve
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
First of all happy 2007!
I just joined the list because I'd love to swap out my aging diesel
for an electric motor on my sailboat. We're sick of the diesel, the
oil and the noise... So we've decided to try and make our Christmas
present to heave the motor overboard and drop in an electric!
I'd really appreciate any comments on the requirements. I've done
some reading and there seem to be very few people mentioning
converting their boat over, but those that have rave about it.
Currently it's got a 50hp Perkins diesel, but it's about 20 years old
and probably putting out half that, and is probably still overpowered
for my requirements.
The one other person who I've got some details about was using a 36
volt motor and used the amp meter as a 'tacho', mainly running it at
about 50amp. Theirs was a smaller lighter sailboat, so I'm guessing
that more up around 75-100amp is more likely for our situation. This
will bring our speed down from ~5knots under power to 2-3, but it's a
price we're more than willing to pay.
(We would probably also look at overpowering our tender outboard a
little and storing that 10-15hp outboard on the back of the sailboat
on a lifting rack that will allow us to use this as a backup or extra
kick if it's ever required.)
Some of the things I'm interested in knowing are:
* Is 36v the right option?
* There will be some charging from 240v, but it will have to be able
to charge from solar/wind primarily. How would this be achieved, do
we have a separate solar/wind charging circuit for 36v and one
(already there) for 12v, or can they be combined in some way? Could
we invert the 12v charging to 240v and pass it into the shore power
charger or is the double conversion cost too high? Could I/should I
charge the engine bank/s at 36v, and the charge the house gear from
that? Could I/should I do away with the house power and run them off
the 36v via a voltage reducer of some kind?
* How exactly do I calculate running time? I'm working on the fact
that the batteries are 6v/220Ah (from memory) which I think gives us
approx. 2hr at 100amp at 36v for a bank of 6 in series. Twice that
for two banks, we would have storage room for 2 banks..
* Is this the kind of motor I'm looking for (Advanced DC Motor
#A00-4009 --
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=519&product_id=1102)
or am I on the wrong track there.
* I'm probably likely to leave the charging circuit on 24/7 through a
regulating (smart?) charger of some kind, does this have implications
for battery choice? I'm expecting that I'd run the motor approx 30-45
minutes in a 'normal' anchorage entry/exit, and the likelyhood of
running down the battery to flat is unlikely and would only happen in
a emergency of some kind.
* How do I control this? This I have no idea about except I would
want variable speed with reverse.
* What have I forgotten?
Sorry about the very long first post, but I'm very excited about the
possibility of getting this done! It'd be a long-time dream realised!
Thanks,
Paul.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Jerry jumped right on it and the image issue has been fixed. I have
approved a bunch of new entries in the last 20 minutes.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Paul, welcome to the list. I'm sure you will get some feedback here but
I'm sure you will get even more over at the Electric Boat List on Yahoo,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/electricboats/ Our own list member Myles Twete
is the moderator. Here is a list of boat links you might find useful
http://www.suckamps.com/index.php?page=links#boats You failed to mention
your length and displacement of your boat. The A00-4009 motor you mentioned
would work well at 36 volts for a boat of about 30 foot long and 11,000
pound displacement. The basics of your conversion would include a motor,
motor speed controller, potentiometer for the throttle input to the
controller, a main contactor or high amp switch, a reversing contactor, a
fuse and cabling, some form of instrumentation, and a battery charger.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Hannah" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:25 PM
Subject: Electric for diesel swap in sailboat.
Hi,
First of all happy 2007!
I just joined the list because I'd love to swap out my aging diesel
for an electric motor on my sailboat. We're sick of the diesel, the
oil and the noise... So we've decided to try and make our Christmas
present to heave the motor overboard and drop in an electric!
I'd really appreciate any comments on the requirements. I've done
some reading and there seem to be very few people mentioning
converting their boat over, but those that have rave about it.
Currently it's got a 50hp Perkins diesel, but it's about 20 years old
and probably putting out half that, and is probably still overpowered
for my requirements.
The one other person who I've got some details about was using a 36
volt motor and used the amp meter as a 'tacho', mainly running it at
about 50amp. Theirs was a smaller lighter sailboat, so I'm guessing
that more up around 75-100amp is more likely for our situation. This
will bring our speed down from ~5knots under power to 2-3, but it's a
price we're more than willing to pay.
(We would probably also look at overpowering our tender outboard a
little and storing that 10-15hp outboard on the back of the sailboat
on a lifting rack that will allow us to use this as a backup or extra
kick if it's ever required.)
Some of the things I'm interested in knowing are:
* Is 36v the right option?
* There will be some charging from 240v, but it will have to be able
to charge from solar/wind primarily. How would this be achieved, do
we have a separate solar/wind charging circuit for 36v and one
(already there) for 12v, or can they be combined in some way? Could
we invert the 12v charging to 240v and pass it into the shore power
charger or is the double conversion cost too high? Could I/should I
charge the engine bank/s at 36v, and the charge the house gear from
that? Could I/should I do away with the house power and run them off
the 36v via a voltage reducer of some kind?
* How exactly do I calculate running time? I'm working on the fact
that the batteries are 6v/220Ah (from memory) which I think gives us
approx. 2hr at 100amp at 36v for a bank of 6 in series. Twice that
for two banks, we would have storage room for 2 banks..
* Is this the kind of motor I'm looking for (Advanced DC Motor
#A00-4009 --
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=519&product_id=1102)
or am I on the wrong track there.
* I'm probably likely to leave the charging circuit on 24/7 through a
regulating (smart?) charger of some kind, does this have implications
for battery choice? I'm expecting that I'd run the motor approx 30-45
minutes in a 'normal' anchorage entry/exit, and the likelyhood of
running down the battery to flat is unlikely and would only happen in
a emergency of some kind.
* How do I control this? This I have no idea about except I would
want variable speed with reverse.
* What have I forgotten?
Sorry about the very long first post, but I'm very excited about the
possibility of getting this done! It'd be a long-time dream realised!
Thanks,
Paul.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
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--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.16.1/611 - Release Date: 12/31/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, Dec 31, 2006 at 06:04:26PM -0600, Mike Chancey wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> Jerry jumped right on it and the image issue has been fixed. I have
> approved a bunch of new entries in the last 20 minutes.
eh!
mine made it in 2006! :)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey
> Webmaster
> EV Photo Album
> http://evalbum.com
--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
| Yo.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gas hits $3 / gal, interest in EVs surges.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>
> What's the benefit of having a capacitor and battery combo?
>
This is the idea that I was trying to put forward the first time. For those
with regen this could be a great idea. Like the cap pack/battery combo that
metricmind has. Something that can take large amounts of regen and then dish
it back out as fast as the motor can digest it. Less sag in the battery side
of the pack, on accelleration? For those like me with just a series motor,
better accelleration?
Matt Milliron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Wabbit now has 30,000 miles on the SAFT 100 MRE flooded NiCad
batteries. So far, so good. We shall see how they do as time and
miles click by. I drive 28 miles each way to work every day.
Aside from attempting to murder them with an outrageous overcharge
one night, they haven't lost any noticeable capacity. (About a year
ago, I lost about 10 to15 A-hrs by overcharging them with an extra
120 A-hrs at 20 amps.) Any other battery would have been DOA with
such abuse. They are at about 85 to 90 A-hr capacity right now.
I put water in them about every 2000 miles.
They prefer being warmer rather than colder. (The internal resistance
is a bit higher when they get really cold.)
Stale charge is a major issue. You can lose about 1/3 of the capacity
(probably more) if you let them sit a few days and then attempt a
full discharge. You must cycle them the day before to get the full
capacity. This can be a problem if you don't drive the car every day.
It can also make the Monday commute a bit stressful if you didn't
drive the car on the weekend, especially in the winter.
They need about 12% overcharge to be fully charged.
Right now, I think that a 144 volt pack like mine would cost $13,000
or more. The pack holds about 14 kW-hrs and weighs about 740 lbs.
If you consider the labor cost of changing the battery pack, they
probably are the best deal for long-term use in an EV.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i uploaded mine a few days ago but have not heard anything about it?
Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi folks,
Yes, I was hoping to get to the 1000 entry point before the end of
the year, but that looks like it isn't going to happen. We actually
have 1006 entries at the moment, but about 35 are still waiting for
their owners to upload pictures There are also 9 entries that have
been retired. Right now we are having some sort of process error so
the thumbnails aren't loading for entries higher than 999. I have
passed the issue on to Jerry Halstead, he is the code guru that
really made the updated Album work. Hopefully he can get the problem
resolved soon.
BTW, if anyone has a problem loading pictures to their existing
pages, feel free to email them to me directly and I will try to get
them posted for you.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
At 08:53 PM 12/30/2006, you wrote:
>I wish we could put "EVAlbum hits 1000 posted EV's" on the
>list. Any chance we could push for 47 more folks to post theirs by the
>end of the year, who haven't yet?
>
>Mike,
>Anchorage, Ak
check out my blog:
http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
This is way off subject, but since it is wire I thought I'd ask -
Here in the desert, we have packrats. They love to nest in engine compartments
of cars/trucks and eat the wiring. Here is an incredible picture of a nest in
my Audi that I left unused for about 2 months
http://www.ironandwood.org/audirat.htm and they attacked my F-250 wires and
cost me about $800 in rewiring.
What I am asking is why they eat the cover of the wiring? Someone told me that
it is the salts in the wire cover. There can be many wires together and they
will only eat one of the wires...
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Final attempt - I've had nightmares posting from yahoo. I never got to post
the story on the nickname I picked, though I tried about 20 times.
Hopefully they won't ALL come through at once in a few days...
2 reasons for picking this - first, I used to work at Piper aircraft. They
always had a secret project going, and whatever it was that week was always
called the 'secret squirrel.'
second, I've always been considered a bit nutty, so it fit.
I also considered blue thunder, but it wasn't a racer, so it didn't quite fit.
If I get to later convert my green car, I'll call it green lightning, and
change this one to blue thunder, so I'll have thunder 'n' lightning in one
garage.
David Brandt
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The payback is negligible. If you sag your battery from 12.5v to 10.5v,
your dV is 2 volts. The energy you get out of a 100F capacitor in the
act of pulling it down 2 volts is 1/2*c*v^2 which is 200 joules, or 200
watt*seconds. If you drag the battery down over 1 second time period you
will be able to draw 16 extra amps (avg 11.5v)
--
Martin K
Matt Milliron wrote:
What's the benefit of having a capacitor and battery combo?
This is the idea that I was trying to put forward the first time. For those
with regen this could be a great idea. Like the cap pack/battery combo that
metricmind has. Something that can take large amounts of regen and then dish
it back out as fast as the motor can digest it. Less sag in the battery side
of the pack, on accelleration? For those like me with just a series motor,
better accelleration?
Matt Milliron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all...
Thanks to the Austin EVList for the resources they
provide to users, the industry, the sport, racers,
converters, builders, designers, OEMs, and the planet.
Let's see if we can get the evDaytona in the group
before midnight too! It's been uploaded already to
the EVAlbum for review & posting.
It's also available at:
www.evDaytona.com
We will get a lot of specs, charts, test results,
videos, and more photos posted soon too.
We resolve to speed-sleep each night in the new year
to allow for more waking hours.
Ryan & crew
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Alternatively, use automotive wire in these gauges.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:01 PM
Subject: Re: Hairball control wire sizing
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:36 PM
> Subject: Hairball control wire sizing
>
>
> > What gage wire do folks use for control wires that feed into the
> > Zilla's hairball, as well os other wiring for relays and such?
> >
>
>
> Hello John,
>
> The wire size depends on the ampere and the length of run of the circuit.
>
> I normally use No. 18, 16 and 10 AWG copper stranded 600 volt rated
Machine
> Tool Wire. Wire will be mark MRW on it. I do not use the nylon cover wire
> which is a type THHN-MTW or TF fixture wire. These are too stiff and
does
> not lay and form nice.
>
> The control wires should be at the highest value of any wire that may be
> higher than the other wires. If you bundle 12 volt wires with a 200 volts
> wires, the insulation all wires shall be at the same voltage rating.
>
> Note the word SHALL. We use shall in all our electrical specifications so
> now it becomes mandatory to do for circuit safety.
>
> I use the No 16 AWG wire on Pin# 1 to 5.
>
> Pin# 6 & 7 is the shield cable that comes with the throttle potentiometer,
> this looks like a No 18 tin AWG strand wire.
>
> Pin# 9 to 18 could be either No. Awg 18 or 16.
>
> The Speed Sensor Pin# 19 to 22 is a shield cable with either No. Awg 18 or
> 16.
>
> For the Pre-Charger circuit Pin# 25 and 27, I use a No. AWG 10 wire. This
> wire to the contactors are only protected by the main circuit breaker or
> main fuse. The No. Awg 10 wire will with stand a short circuit better
than
> a smaller one.
>
>
> The length of wire circuit is about the same as the ampere rating for a 1
to
> 3% voltage drop.
>
> Example: If a wire ampere rating is 10 amps than the maximum length of
this
> wire should be held to 10 feet. The length of circuit is proportional.
If
> you only draw 5 amps on a 10 amp rated wire, then the maximum length could
> be 20 feet.
>
> Here is the ampere rating of these size wires rated at 60 degree C.
>
> Wire Size Ampere
>
> No. 18 5
> No. 16 10
> No. 14 15
> No. 12 20
> No. 10 30
>
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.1/611 - Release Date: 12/31/2006
12:47 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
