EV Digest 6260
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Which ATV is a good donor?
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) 3 wheelers stability issues
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hairball control wire sizing
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Recycled 4/0, 0000 guage cables
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: [EV] EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Considering Warp11 for 85 MR2 Direct Drive
by "Kip C Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Electric Isuzu
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 30k miles on SAFT 100 MRE NiCads
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Series-Parallel batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Joe Sixpack Geo: controlling motor with only 2 terminals
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Considering Warp11 for 85 MR2 Direct Drive
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Series-Parallel batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: [EV] Re: [EV] EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Use 4x4 Transfer Case as 2-speed EV Transmission?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Series-Parallel batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: [EV] EV Album Updates (was Re: EV Milestones for 2006)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Final tally: 2.3 years; 7,128 miles before murder. New strategies for
next USB pack
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: [EV] Re: Final tally: 2.3 years; 7,128 miles before murder. New
strategies for next USB pack
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Recycled 4/0, 0000 guage cables
by "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Electric Isuzu
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello
I currently own a 2002 Honda Fourtrax ATV.
This ATV has the tranny and engine as one component.
Are there any older type 4x4 ATVs that have a separate
engine that can be removed, and then be easily
replaced with an electric motor?
If not does anyone suggest where I can do the research
to find out?
Thanks
Michael Golub
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i guess this settles the issue for me :
"Consequently, the single rear wheel layout is usually considered the
superior platform for a high-performance consumer automobile"
from this page : "Three-Wheel Vehicle Handling Characteristics.htm"
on rqriley.com
now the issue of which wheel(s) the EV power pack should drive :
the ONE rear wheel
OR
the TWO front wheels ?
..peekay
___________________________________________________________
Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New
Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would like to add that the wire size is the minimum of the electrical
and mechanical requirements. With the vibration in a car the hairball
wires will be larger than their electrical needs. ( I have found 18
guage to be about the smallest you want to go in a high vibration
environment. And It goes without saying stranded, fine stranded is best)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Circuit breakers aren't designed for use as a switch. I believe they will
wear out fairly quickly.
Also, what happens if you have a failure and the contacts weld shut? With
everything in one device you have no backup for emergencies.
If you have a controller failure, they usually fail full on. Trying to
interupt full power can sometimes weld contactors, so many folks use the
circuit breaker as an emergency off switch.
> I've been looking at contactors, fuses, and circuit breakers, and had
> the idea of using a circuit breaker as a contactor by creating a setup
> that can switch the breaker on and off. This would eliminate the
> contactor as well as reduce the continuous power draw of the coil to it.
>
> I'm surprised this hasn't been done before or is offered as a product,
> so there must be some downside to it.
>
> It would turn on-off much slower than a contactor, so my guess is that
> might be an issue in general, but for a car, I don't see that as a
> problem.
> In fact, I see a combination of a power-turn-on device that does a
> pre-charge to the controller and once complete will turn on the breaker.
> The breaker will still break if over-current, but then can be turned off
> electrically.
>
> Is there some issue I'm missing?
>
> Thanks,
> Jack
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale wrote:
i uploaded mine a few days ago but have not heard anything about it?
Dale, yours is entry 1000, the first one to show the image
issue. Now that Jerry has made his corrections, it has been posted
to the Album. You can find it at:
http://evalbum.com/1000
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might try the USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate box. I believe its something
like $7.85 for anything you can pack in the box, to anywhere in the US, IE no
weight limit. Seasons greetings, David Chapman.
Quoting Harry Houck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> $15 each plus shipping costs, 7-8 lb. box from zip code 93721.
>
> -Harry
>
> >>> "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12/30/06 8:26 PM >>>
> How many $ each?
>
> They look much more flexible than what my EV has; I may be interested.
>
> - Arthur
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> On Sat, 2006-12-30 at 19:52 -0800, Harry Houck wrote:
> > I have about fifteen 4/0, 12.5 foot long cables for sale. They're
> pulled
> > from mid '80's BMW's found in our dry California salvage yards. See
> pics
> > at http://picasaweb.google.com/Neverbody/BMWCables.
> > I sell the kits to ICE modifyers but have some with corroded ends that
> > EV people can slice and dice for their projects. The insulation seems
> to
> > be molded on, very tough. Stiffer than welding cable. I'd rather it go
> > to EV people than the local recycler.
>
-------------------------------------------------
FastQ Communications
Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan wrote:
Hi all...
Thanks to the Austin EVList for the resources they
provide to users, the industry, the sport, racers,
converters, builders, designers, OEMs, and the planet.
Just to clarify things, Aaron Choate of AustinEV is the web host of
the EV Photo Album. He has been wonderful in providing me space for
it to have a home, but while it is in a folder on the AustinEV
server, it isn't really their website. We have been discussing going
ahead and resetting the domain server to make the URL display
evalbum.com and reduce the confusion.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
and
EV Tradin' Post
http://evtradinpost.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 30, 2006 10:55 AM
Subject: Re: Considering Warp11 for 85 MR2 Direct Drive
I think you are over estimating some weights here. Of course it all
depends on your chosen transaxle, but an older porsche 911/914 transaxle
only weighs about 70 lbs.
Perhaps a little, it's still in the car, so I can only guess at this point,
however the flywheel, clutch, and supporting mechanicals are probably good
for 25 lbs alone. I doubt the transaxle by itself is any less than 70 lbs.
We'll see on that eventually though.
ALso torque is pretty much directly related to current, not voltage.
Doubling the voltage allows you to force more current into the motor which
is where you get more torque. If you are limiting yourself to 500 amps of
current, then your torque will remain the same regardless of voltage.
In this case the only thing the higher voltage allows you, is to continue
to supply the same current at higher RPMs before BEMF startts to reduce
the current draw.
Ok, I've found other sources corroburating this. I assumed a relationship
between electrical power with field forces and torque. I'm not sure I
follow why higher voltage doesn't translate to torque, but that's not
important for design purposes. Color me a tick more informed now. ;)
And your BIGGEST mistaken assumption. If you do go with a single
reduction ratio, you need a BIGGER controller not a cheaper one.
Remember torque is related to CURRENT. To get the high starting torque
and hill climbing torque, you need a high current controller.
Makes perfect sense.
Thanks for setting me straight.
- Kip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom;
I'll take a stab at your battery life estimate. I ran a 120 volt Rabbit,
with a ADC 9" motor ans DCP Rapture controller, used to pull 150-200 amps to
go down the freeway at 60-70 mpg, every day on a 26 mile each way commute. I
got about 20 thousand miles on a pak of T 145's, about 21K on a pak of
105's. I beat the shit out of them, though, with 4-500 amp turnpike
launches. I WILL NOT come on a freway at 25-30 mph and expect ANYBODY to let
me in!!Ya hafta cram it into 4th and floor it to get on at 50-60 mph or
better.Toward the end of the batteries life I was replacing individual
batteries that just died of old age, or cell reversal. Believe me, ya sure
find the bum ones driving like that. EVerything from a warm one to a full
blown "Trojan Teakettle" Boiling ,frothing ,reversed cell! Battery is junk,
at this point!But as they all aged together, failure is almost contagious!?
"well, if HE can go, so can I" and they start to go in sympathy. The animate
perversity of inanimate objects, one of the more obscure Murphy Laws<g>!
But as you are discovering; the short trips with frequent charging, EVen
if it is only 10 amps for an hour here an' there, will almost double your
range!If EV's EVer become common enough, and 240 volt 50 amp outlets are put
out for us, and ya have one of Rich's chargers, you could go on forever!EV
touring EVen!
Seeya at Battery Beach Burnout!
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 6:00 PM
Subject: Electric Isuzu
> I have been just looking at my records over the past year and reading
others post. Since I put my Electric Isuzu on the road 3rd March 2006 I
have driven it almost every day over 20 miles per day and on the weekend I
will drive it over 100 miles at times. Of course not all in one trip. But
if you charge when you get home from the store and then go again and plug in
again you would be surprized at how many miles you can go in one day. So
any how I have driven a total of 6000 mile the first year and that was not a
full 12 months.
>
> I have not had any trouble except one day I forgot to plug the inverter in
and the contactor kept dropping out on me. The 12v battery was going dead.
After I pluged it back in and used my ball point pen to get it started
everything was ok.
>
> I guess the question I have is when I read about alot of the posts they
say that after 2 years of driving they now have 6,000 miles on their vehicle
or so. If I am putting on 6 or more thousand miles per year how long will
my batteries last?
>
> I am using a Zivan charger and a 120 volt pack of Interstate us2200
batteries. I have to water them every 50 days or so and it is nice to just
come home and plug in the batteries and not worry about what is happening.
This has been about the best thing I have ever done.
>
> It was not that hard to convert and I don't do alot of fussing with it.
It was just about plug and play.
>
> Tom Carpenter
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.16.1/611 - Release Date: 12/31/06
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The Wabbit now has 30,000 miles on the SAFT 100 MRE flooded NiCad
batteries. So far, so good. We shall see how they do as time and miles
click by. I drive 28 miles each way to work every day.
Sorry Bill, I envy your car. Compared to NiCDs even AGMs make me just
say yuck. Even with the hand-watering 252 cells I have to say lead makes
me go yuk.
Aside from attempting to murder them with an outrageous overcharge one
night, they haven't lost any noticeable capacity. (About a year ago, I
lost about 10 to15 A-hrs by overcharging them with an extra 120 A-hrs at
20 amps.) Any other battery would have been DOA with such abuse. They
are at about 85 to 90 A-hr capacity right now.
How did that happen out of curiosity? I've found that when the BB600's
are full, they just don't accept any more charge and sit there at voltage.
I put water in them about every 2000 miles.
How do you know they need water? Does the profile change at all?
Stale charge is a major issue. You can lose about 1/3 of the capacity
(probably more) if you let them sit a few days and then attempt a full
discharge. You must cycle them the day before to get the full capacity.
This can be a problem if you don't drive the car every day. It can also
make the Monday commute a bit stressful if you didn't drive the car on
the weekend, especially in the winter.
I've noticed this with the BB600's, though not quite as bad. Best range
is to drive them down, charge them up, then drive off.
Right now, I think that a 144 volt pack like mine would cost $13,000 or
more. The pack holds about 14 kW-hrs and weighs about 740 lbs.
If you consider the labor cost of changing the battery pack, they
probably are the best deal for long-term use in an EV.
$26,000 to fuel my truck or the Prizm. I'm going to have to replace the
pack in said Prizm soon anyway, if I pull 5 years on it that will be
amazing. And at 5k for a new pack....
Anyone got 50 surplus SAFT MREs?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> If we ignore efficiency:
> Power in = power out
> Power = Volts * Amps
But we can't ingnore it for this discussion, as switching the pack
between 1/2 and full voltage would largely be done for efficiency
reasons in this case.
I have read your reasoning that since the SCR voltage drop is roughly
fixed, the % loss it represents doubles when the input voltage is
halved, however, as it happens the efficiency of *any* buck converter is
highest near 100% duty and decreases as the duty cycle drops.
So, when you are driving around at relatively low speed, and therefore
need a low voltage at the motor, it is quite likely to be *more*
efficient to provide the controller with 1/2 pack voltage so that it
will run at 2x the duty cycle.
As has been noted elsewhere, the Bradley's provided the ability to run
feed their EV-1 controllers half or full pack voltage (48/96V) for
greater efficiency at low speeds. Of course, the EV-1s switched so
slowly (50-300Hz, with the 300Hz peak at about 50% duty) and had no
input/bus caps, so some of the efficiency gains will have also been due
to more efficicent use of the batteries (less ripple) and motor in
addition to any reduction in controller losses.
Feeding the controller lower voltage can also result in better
driveability. There will be some minimum duty cycle that the controller
can provide (> 0%), so feeding it a higher input voltage will result in
more abrupt starts.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Darin,
> Just thought to ask: does the pot have to be a certain style
> or size, or should any 0-5k pot work? (The one I'm testing
> with is a small dial pot, not the usual "PB-5" lever style
> that's usually hooked up to a throttle cable).
>
> The manual does say: "Any potbox that provides a nominal 0-5k
> ohm output (controller output begins at 300 ohms, full output
> is 4400 ohms) will work with the standard throttle input."
The Curtii usually have logic to lock out the controller if the throttle
is depressed when you enable the controller ("high pedal lockout",
IIRC). Make sure that your pot is set near 0 ohms before powering up
the controller. It may also disable itself if it sees a resistance much
greater than 4500 ohms (detecting this as an open circuit fault
condition), so ensure you have the pot connected and adjusted the the 0
ohm end for low speed when starting up.
Also, standard practice for testing a motor controller is to connect it
up with a light bulb in place of the motor; the controller is little
more than a very big light dimmer, and if it is working properly you
should be able to vary the brightness of the light by varying the
throttle.
If the controller is functional it should have no problem spinning up
your motor. The EV-1 controller will also be fine driving your
2-terminal motor. As you note, the field connections are only required
if you are planning on using FWD/REV contactors to allow reversing the
motor electrically. The 8" in my car is connected to my EV-1 as a
2-terminal motor also; although the field connections are available
externally, they are simply connected such that the controller connects
to one armature terminal and one field terminal - the other pair of
terminals are connected together to place the armature and field in
series in the appropriate orientation for FWD motion of the car.
Cheers and good luck!
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Ok, I've found other sources corroburating this. I assumed a relationship
> between electrical power with field forces and torque. I'm not sure I
> follow why higher voltage doesn't translate to torque, but that's not
> important for design purposes. Color me a tick more informed now. ;)
>
Your almost there, electrical power translates to mechanical power. I.e.
power in equals power out (less losses).
Power in = Volts * Amps
Power out = RPM * Torque.
Roughly speaking, with DC motors, voltage equates to RPM and Current to
Torque.
Generally speaking, if you keep current the same and double voltage, then
you end up with about double the RPM.
If you keep voltage the same and double the current, then you get double
the torque.
This is an oversimplification because the motor pretty much determines how
much current it will draw based on applied voltage and mechanical load.
If you apply more voltage to the motor, it will draw more current, but
only up to the point the controller will allow.
Motor controllers limit current by cutting back on the duty cycle, which
effectively lowers the voltage applied to the motor. Less applied voltage
means the motor will draw less current and vice versa.
So in order to push high current into the motor (at higher RPMs) you need
a high voltage controller, BUT it also has to be a high current controller
or it will limit the output current, and therefor torque, to a low level.
High voltage, high current controllers are expensive. In order to survive
the high currents for any amount of time you also need a bigger motor (or
two motors).
If high performance is your main criteria and cost is no object, then
single reduction ratios are attractive.
However, if cost is a driving factor, keep the transmission. The weight
is negligible compared to the total vehicle weight, and it makes a huge
improvement in performance if you are using the cheaper controllers and
smaller motors.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
>> If we ignore efficiency:
>> Power in = power out
>> Power = Volts * Amps
>
> But we can't ingnore it for this discussion, as switching the pack
> between 1/2 and full voltage would largely be done for efficiency
> reasons in this case.
>
> I have read your reasoning that since the SCR voltage drop is roughly
> fixed, the % loss it represents doubles when the input voltage is
> halved, however, as it happens the efficiency of *any* buck converter is
> highest near 100% duty and decreases as the duty cycle drops.
That doesnt make sense. I mean it makes sense for a MOSFET controller
because the MOSFET losses are probably lower than the freewheel diodes.
But with an SCR controller, the diodes and SCRs have about the same loss.
Switching losses (the losses when changing states) depend on frequency not
duty cycle.
I don't see any other losses in the PWM controller, except perhaps the
input capacitors. Of course if you have any significant amount of input
cap, then you will run into a little bit of a problem when switching the
pack voltage, what happens to the extra voltage in the caps?
> As has been noted elsewhere, the Bradley's provided the ability to run
> feed their EV-1 controllers half or full pack voltage (48/96V) for
> greater efficiency at low speeds.
You get greater efficiency because this lowers performance. I.e. you
can't drive as fast or accelerate as quickly.
If you could restrain yourself and drive at slower speeds and accelerate
at the lower rate, you'd end up with about the same range at 96V as you
get at 48V.
Remember aerodynamic losses go up at the square of your speed, so it takes
twice as much power to cover the same distance.
> Of course, the EV-1s switched so
> slowly (50-300Hz, with the 300Hz peak at about 50% duty) and had no
> input/bus caps, so some of the efficiency gains will have also been due
> to more efficicent use of the batteries (less ripple) and motor in
> addition to any reduction in controller losses.
That too, plus lower peukerts effect due to the lower current draw from
the lower performance. Again, you can get the same effect by self
limiting the performance, i.e. keep your foot out of it.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> eh!
> mine made it in 2006! :)
Mine too (1911 Hupp-Yeats under construction) made #1018:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1018
Looks like a lot of us got 'em updated today!
-MT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was not exactly a transfer case, but old Dodge Colts had a high/low range. I
had read it was about 6 pounds and an addition to an existing transmission. It
was easier and cheaper than making it into a 5 speed.
For the original poster, old Honda Civics used to have a 2 speed automatic
transmission.
Probably the best bet is to just run with the car's existing transmission, and
then if you get ambitious remove unneeded gears.
----- Original Message ----
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, December 28, 2006 9:25:14 PM
Subject: Re: Use 4x4 Transfer Case as 2-speed EV Transmission?
...
I'm not aware of transfer cases being used on FWD vehicles. I've only
seen them on 4WD or AWD vehicles.
Every one I've seen has separate differentials on the front and rear axle.
Do you (or anyone else) know of a FWD vehicle that uses a transfer case,
or even a 4WD vehicle that is normally FWD rather than RWD?
...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> That doesnt make sense. I mean it makes sense for a MOSFET
> controller because the MOSFET losses are probably lower than
> the freewheel diodes.
> But with an SCR controller, the diodes and SCRs have about
> the same loss.
>
> Switching losses (the losses when changing states) depend on
> frequency not duty cycle.
If you want the motor to spin at a given [low] speed you need to feed it
some [low] average voltage, but you need some amount of power to move
the car at that [low] speed. If you feed the controller a high voltage,
it has to run at a low duty cycle to keep the motor voltage/speed as
desired, which means that the peak current during the on time will be
proportionately higher than if you feed it half the voltage, in order
that the motor receives the same power. I2R comes into play.
> I don't see any other losses in the PWM controller, except
> perhaps the input capacitors. Of course if you have any
> significant amount of input cap, then you will run into a
> little bit of a problem when switching the pack voltage,
> what happens to the extra voltage in the caps?
The GE EV-1 that the Bradleys used has no input/bus capacitors so this
was not a problem. The original poster is contemplating using an SCR
panel out of a lift truck which most likely also does not have any
input/bus capacitance (and at the low switching frequencies used by the
EV-1, adding enough input caps to reduce the battery ripple
significantly is cost-prohibitive).
> You get greater efficiency because this lowers performance.
> I.e. you can't drive as fast or accelerate as quickly.
> If you could restrain yourself and drive at slower speeds and
> accelerate at the lower rate, you'd end up with about the same
> range at 96V as you get at 48V.
While there is truth to what you say, it is not the whole story here.
The EV-1 controller varies both duty cycle *and* switching frequency
with throttle position. Feeding the controller a lower voltage allows
it to operate at a higher duty cycle *and* higher frequency, which
reduces the ripple current seen by the battery and motor and improves
system efficiency in a way and to a degree that is simply not possible
when feeding it full pack voltage no matter how disciplined one's right
foot is.
Even at 1/2 pack voltage the controller will still push its full rated
current into the motor at low speeds, so low-speed performance is not
affected to nearly the extent that you imply.
> Remember aerodynamic losses go up at the square of your
> speed, so it takes twice as much power to cover the same
> distance.
This is irrelevant to the discussion. The point is not that operation
at low speeds is more efficient than operation at high speeds, but
rather that operating the controller at half pack voltage is more
efficient than operating it at full input voltage at the *same* speeds.
This may be true to a greater or lesser extent depending on the
components in use (e.g. high frequency MOSFET controller vs low/variable
freq SCR controller, or flooded vs AGM batteries, etc.), but it was
certainly the case with the GE EV-1 controller that *overall* efficiency
was improved at low speeds this way. If the original poster is
considering building a low-fequency SCR control, then he *may* realise
similar advantages to allowing the controller to run on lower input
voltages when low speed operation is desired.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Happy New Year all EVers!,
We will be happy to provide free webspace to the list
or other EV related history, data, spreadsheets,
conversions, etc. We are still providing free
websites to EV List members too. For an example, look
at:
EV-Blue.com
or
StoreMenu.com
Here's for a better EV YEAR in 2007!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
or
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1017
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ryan wrote:
> >Hi all...
> >Thanks to the Austin EVList for the resources they
> >provide to users, the industry, the sport, racers,
> >converters, builders, designers, OEMs, and the
> planet.
> Just to clarify things, Aaron Choate of AustinEV is
> the web host of
> the EV Photo Album. He has been wonderful in
> providing me space for
> it to have a home, but while it is in a folder on
> the AustinEV
> server, it isn't really their website. We have been
> discussing going
> ahead and resetting the domain server to make the
> URL display
> evalbum.com and reduce the confusion.
> Thanks,
> Mike Chancey Webmaster, EV Photo Album
> http://evalbum.com
> and
> EV Tradin' Post
> http://evtradinpost.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob,
As I was thinking in the shower about my post regarding your
vehicle costs, I realized I made a mistake in calculating the #
of batteries you have: it would be either 16 8V for 128V or 18
for 144V. I don't recall which it is w/o digging through the
archives. So batteries have gone up a bunch the last couple of
years. Have you priced them recently? I was quoted about $75
for a new 6V battery by Jim Ramos, our USB man in the Bay Area.
That is really, like "Ouch!". My first set of batteries were at
$50 each. At that price, ok, if I blow a pack early, I'll just
kick myself and hand over the cash. Now I'm having trouble
digesting that possibility.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Final tally: 2.3 years; 7,128 miles before murder.
New strategies for next USB pack
> 7000 mi./30 mpg = 233 gal. 233.3 = $583 at 2.50 gal
> avg. Toss in an oil change or two for $40 is $621.
> Divide by 2.3 years = $270/yr. if the Civvy was still
> an ICE.
>
> Batts. were 1270 at the time, + $72*2.3 for
> electricity. That's 1435.60/2.3 years = $624 for the
> EV. I stand corrected!
>
> On the other hand, the Odyssey needed a rear mainseal
> and a new manifold over the same period of time; that
> was over $2000 to replace. Amortize things like that,
> plus my time gassing up, which is also precious, and
> it's still worth it...
>
>
>
> > I would like to know why you say cost-effective
> > compared with
> > ICE. If you got 7000 miles, and you have, if I
> > recall, 16 8V
> > batteries for a 144V pack, and if each one of those
> > batteries is
> > costing, $80-100, then you're paying $1300-1600 for
> > your pack.
> > That's roughly 20-23 cents / mile, battery cost
> > alone, on top of
> > your electricity, tires, brakes, battery pack
> > transportation and
> > install, etc. I think the battery cost has got to
> > be on the
> > order of 10 cents / mile to make an EV reach parity
> > with an ICE.
> > Some, like Roland, are claiming much lower cost/mile
> > (I recall
> > Roland was getting something like 2-4 cents/mile,
> > which is
> > phenomenal). I admit, however, that there is a lot
> > of hand
> > waving when talking these #s up, as it seems rather
> > hard to
> > really compare the costs of running an EV vs an ICE
> > vehicle.
> > >
> > > USB says to hold 2.587VPC for 2 hrs. to get
> > bubbling
> > > and complete mixing of the electrolyte.
> > > Successful listers say charge until you get 2.65
> > SG
> > > and (within reason) ignore the dang voltage. If
> > > you've done so, you'll have had bubbling and mixed
> > the
> > > electrolyte. I've also heard that this is almost
> > an
> > > equalizing charge every time.
> >
> > I think this 2.587 is too high for every charge
> > cycle, given my
> > experience with this pack I'm on now. Next pack, if
> > there is
> > one, will go to 14.80V/12V of cells, or 2.47VPC on
> > the typical
> > charge, per Roland's advice. Equalizing charge @6A
> > till no
> > voltage increase once a week or about every 50-75
> > miles. (I am
> > running US125 6V'ers, by the way.)
> > >
> > > Some say to charge as often as possible.
> > > Successful LISTers say that charging is hard on
> > the
> > > batteries.
> > > Solution: I'll charge when I pull more than 2.5
> > kWh
> > > from the pack.
> >
> > I've never been able to make up my mind on this one.
> > Since I'm
> > about 1/3 to 1/2 way through my pack every work
> > night commute,
> > and with my steep hill climb at the end, I think
> > best to charge
> > every night. I also don't think that it is a good
> > idea to leave
> > Pb-acid batteries partially discharged for more than
> > a few days.
> > So even if I decided to follow the plan of not
> > charging every
> > night till I reach 50% discharged (that is 50% of my
> > usable
> > amp-hours being gone), and I was only doing short
> > trips, like
> > maybe taking 10% of the amp-hours, and then not use
> > the car for
> > several days - I don't think I'd let the car sit
> > without a charge
> > past day five or so. However, Roland seems to be
> > saying maybe
> > two weeks is ok. I also don't know how the high amp
> > draw of my
> > hill plays into this, as I'm sure that 300-350A will
> > build up the
> > lead sulfate in a hurry. (Incidentally, my new rule
> > when I come
> > home from work at night, since about half the time
> > there is no
> > one else coming up the hill at that time, is to try
> > to hold the
> > battery amps to a rough max of 250. I'll only be
> > going 12 mph or
> > so, and it drags the hill out for a longer length of
> > time, but I
> > think it may be worth it, to hold it down. It's
> > about 30-45
> > seconds up the steep, hi-amp portion of the hill.
> > Other hills, I
> > have no choice, since I'm out in traffic, so
> > 300-350A for 30
> > seconds to a minute can happen at least once a day.)
> > >
> > > In general, I'll be relying more on SG than
> > voltage
> > > from now on.
> > >
> > > I will start my charge at C/10, not the max I can
> > pull
> > > from the charger.
> > >
> > > I'll be using 165Ah, not the high-capacity 178 Ah
> > for
> > > less messiness.
> >
> > 8V'ers aren't going to last as long as 6V'ers,
> > although Lynn
> > Adams in CO did some phenomenal things with his
> > 8V'ers. Your own
> > 8V mileage may not be that far off the "average"
> > mark.
> > >
> > > I will add a small section of tubing to my filler
> > > bottle, so that my levels of electrolyte will now
> > be
> > > lower than they have been in the past. It needs
> > to be
> > > 1/4" below the plastic tab in the well on 80%
> > complete
> > > charge; just covering the plates pre-charge, and
> > the
> > > bottle allows it to get higher than that.
> > >
> > > Other ideas welcomed.
> > >
> > > In summary I'm still stunned that battery care and
> > > feeding has required more effort and reading than
> > > building the car in the first place. Hopefully
> > this
> > > will be my next floodie pack, before that "next
> > > battery technology... right around the corner"
> > comes
> > > out!
> >
> > I'm right with you on the feeling stunned. I am
> > hopeful that
> > I'll get my 10-12K miles on this pack, but if I
> > don't, and the
> > pack goes over the edge like at or before 8-9K
> > miles, I'm very
> > likely to abandon my EV efforts. Especially with
> > the price of
> > batteries now, it just seems like a big crapshoot.
> > I feel like
> > I'm walking on a picket fence, charging too hard or
> > not enough.
> > There's too many variables, too many gotchas.
> > Walking or riding
> > a bike is a lot cheaper, although this hill back up
> > to the apt
> > will be brutal, especially if I have to ride it at
> > night
> === message truncated ===
>
>
> Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
> has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
> Learn more at:
> www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the
steering wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Eduardo Kaftanski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent Sunday, December 31, 2006 7:20
AM:
> >
> > On the other hand, the Odyssey needed a rear mainseal
> > and a new manifold over the same period of time; that
> > was over $2000 to replace. Amortize things like that,
> > plus my time gassing up, which is also precious, and
> > it's still worth it...
> >
>
> Maintenance issues are one of the main things that steer
> me towards EVs. I mantain my own vehicles but grease under
> my fingernails and oily smell is starting to bug me.
>
> I want as grease free as possible a car...
That I can understand. One thing I noticed with my EV is that my
hands stay a lot cleaner than working with an engine or other
maintenance in an ICE car. The dirty part about my EV is the
original transmission, which, with MTL fluid, seems to do a bit
of leaking (just a bit of a drip hanging off the bottom of the
housing), although I'm not having to put hardly any fluid in.
Still, back behind the tranny (transaxle on a Rabbit) and the
occasional leaking CV joint, it has gotten rather grungy over the
years. Also, in areas I can't clean in certain corners, the dirt
has accumulated over the years from coming under the lip of the
hood. It's not too bad, but it's there.
Maintaining my gas car is actually easier. I finally found an
excellent trained-by-Toyota-in-Japan former-Toyota-engineer with
a heavy Japanese accent that does a real good job with my
4Runner, which I use for those longer drives (beyond the range of
the EV, up to the mountains, etc.). An oil change and lube every
three months or so, plus handling any other infrequent problems
that come up. I'm usually in and out in an hour or two in the
morning.
My EV's maintenance, on the other hand, is a problem. I thought
I had finally found someone good and understanding to handle
issues like replacing the brakes pads and dealing with worn out
shocks and such, but he seems to have faded away before we even
got started (give it another week for him to respond to my email
trying to decide what shocks to get). Most mechanics don't want
to hassle with its oddities, like the extra weight, which means
being extra careful when hoisting it off the floor and dealing
with different damping rates for shocks, amongst other things.
Living in an apartment means I can't handle many of those things
on my own. If I had my own shop, things would be a lot less
frustrating with the EV. Unfortunately, in the Bay Area, buying
my own house is impossible (means I'm likely to be leaving this
hypereconomy joint before much longer). Median house price is
about $900K-1MB here in Marin, and in the rest of the Bay Area,
you're probably looking at $700K; a fixer-up type of place is
about $500K. So I guess what I'm saying is that if you live in
an apt, aside from the charging issues, keeping your EV
maintained can be rather frustrating.
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correction - now $8.10 for two sizes of US Priority Mail, by weight for the
other two boxes.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 9:18 PM
Subject: Re: Recycled 4/0, 0000 guage cables
> You might try the USPS Priority Mail Flat Rate box. I believe its
something
> like $7.85 for anything you can pack in the box, to anywhere in the US, IE
no
> weight limit. Seasons greetings, David Chapman.
>
> Quoting Harry Houck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>
> > $15 each plus shipping costs, 7-8 lb. box from zip code 93721.
> >
> > -Harry
> >
> > >>> "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 12/30/06 8:26 PM >>>
> > How many $ each?
> >
> > They look much more flexible than what my EV has; I may be interested.
> >
> > - Arthur
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 2006-12-30 at 19:52 -0800, Harry Houck wrote:
> > > I have about fifteen 4/0, 12.5 foot long cables for sale. They're
> > pulled
> > > from mid '80's BMW's found in our dry California salvage yards. See
> > pics
> > > at http://picasaweb.google.com/Neverbody/BMWCables.
> > > I sell the kits to ICE modifyers but have some with corroded ends that
> > > EV people can slice and dice for their projects. The insulation seems
> > to
> > > be molded on, very tough. Stiffer than welding cable. I'd rather it go
> > > to EV people than the local recycler.
> >
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------
> FastQ Communications
> Providing Innovative Internet Solutions Since 1993
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.16.1/611 - Release Date: 12/31/2006
12:47 PM
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Let me see,
If Bob = 200 amps @ 52 mpd = 60 min = 20K miles = 1.09 year
If Tom = 200 amps @ 20 mpd = 60 min = 6K miles = 3.33 years
If Roland = 200 amps @ 3 mpd = 9 min = 1.1K miles = 18 years
So if this is true and I got 5500 miles on my T-145's in 5 years, then I
should be able to get 18-5= 13 more years on my batteries.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 11:22 PM
Subject: Re: Electric Isuzu
> Hi Tom;
>
> I'll take a stab at your battery life estimate. I ran a 120 volt
> Rabbit,
> with a ADC 9" motor ans DCP Rapture controller, used to pull 150-200 amps
> to
> go down the freeway at 60-70 mpg, every day on a 26 mile each way commute.
> I
> got about 20 thousand miles on a pak of T 145's, about 21K on a pak of
> 105's. I beat the shit out of them, though, with 4-500 amp turnpike
> launches. I WILL NOT come on a freway at 25-30 mph and expect ANYBODY to
> let
> me in!!Ya hafta cram it into 4th and floor it to get on at 50-60 mph or
> better.Toward the end of the batteries life I was replacing individual
> batteries that just died of old age, or cell reversal. Believe me, ya sure
> find the bum ones driving like that. EVerything from a warm one to a full
> blown "Trojan Teakettle" Boiling ,frothing ,reversed cell! Battery is
> junk,
> at this point!But as they all aged together, failure is almost
> contagious!?
> "well, if HE can go, so can I" and they start to go in sympathy. The
> animate
> perversity of inanimate objects, one of the more obscure Murphy Laws<g>!
>
> But as you are discovering; the short trips with frequent charging,
> EVen
> if it is only 10 amps for an hour here an' there, will almost double your
> range!If EV's EVer become common enough, and 240 volt 50 amp outlets are
> put
> out for us, and ya have one of Rich's chargers, you could go on forever!EV
> touring EVen!
>
> Seeya at Battery Beach Burnout!
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 6:00 PM
> Subject: Electric Isuzu
>
>
> > I have been just looking at my records over the past year and reading
> others post. Since I put my Electric Isuzu on the road 3rd March 2006 I
> have driven it almost every day over 20 miles per day and on the weekend I
> will drive it over 100 miles at times. Of course not all in one trip.
> But
> if you charge when you get home from the store and then go again and plug
> in
> again you would be surprized at how many miles you can go in one day. So
> any how I have driven a total of 6000 mile the first year and that was not
> a
> full 12 months.
> >
> > I have not had any trouble except one day I forgot to plug the inverter
> > in
> and the contactor kept dropping out on me. The 12v battery was going
> dead.
> After I pluged it back in and used my ball point pen to get it started
> everything was ok.
> >
> > I guess the question I have is when I read about alot of the posts they
> say that after 2 years of driving they now have 6,000 miles on their
> vehicle
> or so. If I am putting on 6 or more thousand miles per year how long will
> my batteries last?
> >
> > I am using a Zivan charger and a 120 volt pack of Interstate us2200
> batteries. I have to water them every 50 days or so and it is nice to
> just
> come home and plug in the batteries and not worry about what is happening.
> This has been about the best thing I have ever done.
> >
> > It was not that hard to convert and I don't do alot of fussing with it.
> It was just about plug and play.
> >
> > Tom Carpenter
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.16.1/611 - Release Date: 12/31/06
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
