EV Digest 6261
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: battery rebuilding, desulfating, additives,
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Hairball control wire sizing ( way OT - Wire cover composition)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Series-Parallel batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Series-Parallel batteries
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: battery rebuilding, desulfating, additives,
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Potbox variation for reverse
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: battery rebuilding, desulfating, additives,
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) GEM stolen then found with help from Yahoo.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 30k miles on SAFT 100 MRE NiCads
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Electric for diesel swap in sailboat.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Electric for diesel swap in sailboat.
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) A pleasant New Year's suprise
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) RE: Electric for diesel swap in sailboat.
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Circuit Breaker and Contactor
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electric Isuzu
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
17) AC Pulley Mod for Warp 9- Help!
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV Milestones for 2006
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: 3 wheelers stability issues
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AltairNano Completes ORDER to Phoenix Motorcar
by "Kaido Kert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: OT, Re: Gens in EV's, Re: Current Eliminator news
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
by "Adrian DeLeon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: AC Pulley Mod for Warp 9- Help!
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
GWMobile wrote:
What's the benefit of having a capacitor and battery combo?
As a rule, capacitors are good at delivering high peak current for very
short times. Batteries are good at delivering low currents for a long time.
So, there can be situations where the battery you chose (for long
discharge time) can't deliver enough peak current (for fast
accelleration). In this case, you could add a set of capacitors
sufficient to provide the high peak current needed for accelleration,
and then recharge them from the batteries once you are up to speed.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
What about battery rebuilding? I read about it, but are there actually
people who do this?
Most consumer batteries are meant to be recycled rather than rebuilt.
They drain, filter, and reuse the acid. They cut open the case, grind it
up, and make new plastic out of it. They melt down the plates, refine,
and recast new ones. Then put it all back together again.
Large industrial lead-acid batteries are rebuildable. You can replace
individual cells. On some, you can even take individual cells apart,
clean out the sludge, replace the acid, and put them back in service.
I am having a lot of sticker shock on a new set of T-875's. The
prices are about 3x what they were 5-7 years ago ....
They haven't gone up *that* much! Five years ago, golf cart batteries
were $40-$75. Today they are $70-$100. Other types have gone up similar
amounts.
Yes, the price for newly-mined lead has gone up considerably (the mines
are far away in war-torn countries, shipping is expensive, the dollar is
weak, etc.) But the lead for lead-acid batteries is >90% recycled, so
the price of new lead should have very little effect.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rush wrote:
packrats... eat the wiring... why?
My understanding is that the insulation has plasticisers in it to make
the plastic flexible. Plasticisers are oils. The cheapest plasticisers
are natural oils, like soybean and peanut oil. But to an animal, they
make the wire smell like food! So, better wire uses more expensive
plasticisers that smell or taste bad to animals.
The other problem is that wiring sometimes *looks* like food. A nice
bundle of green wires on our outdoor Christmas lights looks just like a
nice green vine to the yard rabbits!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
as it happens, the efficiency of *any* buck converter is
highest near 100% duty and decreases as the duty cycle drops.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
That doesn't make sense.
He's right, though. A buck converter's efficiency is best at its highest
duty cycle, and falls as duty cycle decreases. It makes sense when you
think about it.
Let's say you hold power input constant, and see how the losses change
as duty cycle changes. Battery voltage is fixed, so battery current is
fixed. Power out = power in, so the lower the duty cycle, the higher the
output current (and the lower the output voltage).
No matter what switching devices you use (MOSFET, IGBT, transistor,
SCR), higher current always means higher conduction losses. Switching
losses also go up as current goes up. So, losses in the controller go up
as duty cycle goes down.
Lower duty cycles also increase the ripple current on the battery input.
Higher ripple current increases losses in the battery and associated
wiring. You can reduce this with big enough input filter capacitors, but
no controller reduces it to zero.
So as duty cycle falls, everything goes in the wrong direction for
efficiency.
[Bradley] You get greater efficiency because this lowers performance.
No; even driving at a constant speed, switching to half pack voltage
lowered the battery amps needed to drive at that speed.
Though I'm sure you got more range by limiting accelleration rates as
well. Controller current limit was the same, but at half pack voltage
you could only get half power.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Roger Stockton wrote:
>>> as it happens, the efficiency of *any* buck converter is
>>> highest near 100% duty and decreases as the duty cycle drops.
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> That doesn't make sense.
>
> He's right, though. A buck converter's efficiency is best at its highest
> duty cycle, and falls as duty cycle decreases. It makes sense when you
> think about it.
>
> Let's say you hold power input constant, and see how the losses change
> as duty cycle changes. Battery voltage is fixed, so battery current is
> fixed. Power out = power in, so the lower the duty cycle, the higher the
> output current (and the lower the output voltage).
Since we are feeding a motor and not a constant power sink, lower voltage
means LOWER current.
Though I see you point, if the power remained the same.
However, in this particular case we are talking about driving a vehicle,
presumably at the same speed, and comparing two different input voltages.
Since the speed stays the same, the output voltage and current also
remains the same.
>
> No matter what switching devices you use (MOSFET, IGBT, transistor,
> SCR), higher current always means higher conduction losses. Switching
> losses also go up as current goes up. So, losses in the controller go up
> as duty cycle goes down.
So how does lowering our input voltage (and therefor INCREASING out input
current) help reduce losses? How does increasing duty cycle reduce losses
due to I2R if the only change in current (in this case) is to INCREASE the
input current?
>
>> [Bradley] You get greater efficiency because this lowers performance.
>
> No; even driving at a constant speed, switching to half pack voltage
> lowered the battery amps needed to drive at that speed.
How exactly? Since the power required to move the vehicle remains the
same, where are you saving this huge amount of power to get a significant
difference in range?
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> They haven't gone up *that* much! Five years ago, golf cart batteries
> were $40-$75. Today they are $70-$100. Other types have gone up similar
> amounts.
>
> Yes, the price for newly-mined lead has gone up considerably (the mines
> are far away in war-torn countries, shipping is expensive, the dollar is
> weak, etc.) But the lead for lead-acid batteries is >90% recycled, so
> the price of new lead should have very little effect.
Yeah, I think the major reason for the increase in cost (besides
inflation) is the fact that they are heavy and the cost of fuel required
to ship them has gone up 300% in the last 7 years. Remember this cost
also applies to returning the used batteries to the recycling plant, and
then shipping the lead to the battery manufacturer, etc., etc.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:42 PM 12/31/2006, Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> The manual does say: "Any potbox that provides a nominal 0-5k
> ohm output (controller output begins at 300 ohms, full output
> is 4400 ohms) will work with the standard throttle input."
The Curtii usually have logic to lock out the controller if the throttle
is depressed when you enable the controller ("high pedal lockout",
IIRC). Make sure that your pot is set near 0 ohms before powering up
the controller. It may also disable itself if it sees a resistance much
greater than 4500 ohms (detecting this as an open circuit fault
condition), so ensure you have the pot connected and adjusted the the 0
ohm end for low speed when starting up.
Hmm, I just realized that this description might mean I have an easy
way to fix a problem with my Sparrow.
It's REALLY hard to start gently in reverse - on a gravel surface (my
driveway).
So, it sounds like I could hook up a relay (controlled by the fwd/rev
switch) to put a small resistor (2K or so) in parallel with the pot
box. This would reduce the range of the potbox, and give me finer
speed control when in reverse. I wouldn't be able to go 70mph in
reverse, but who wants to?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Yes, the price for newly-mined lead has gone up considerably (the mines
> are far away in war-torn countries, shipping is expensive, the dollar is
> weak, etc.) But the lead for lead-acid batteries is >90% recycled, so
> the price of new lead should have very little effect.
New lead sold on Dec 29 for $0.8051 per lb
(http://www.metalprices.com/#tables), so a Trojan T-125 battery, 72 lbs so lets
say ~60 lbs of lead, made out of new lead would cost $48.
Recycled lead varies from $0.35/lb for a truck load (-40,000 lbs) to $0.58/lb
for a full truck load (+40,000 lbs), http://www.scrapindex.com/metal.html, so
recycled lead in the above battery would cost between $21 and $34
Happy New Year EVerybody,
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like the first GEM Joyride. Congrats Robert. Maybe you need an
alarm. I would charge and equalize as soon as possible. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
SEE BELOW
1b. Re: Stolen GEM
Posted by: "goelectric13" [EMAIL PROTECTED] goelectric13
Date: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:28 am ((PST))
Thank you for all of your comments and concerns!
About 50 people in Venice CA have a Yahoo group that we use for various
community
issues so I posted a message there. I got an email early this morning that a
GEM was seen
in an alley about a mile away. I went over and there it was.
They took the steering column apart and then took the lock out. There were
two wires
hanging out that when twisted together hot wire the car. They drove it
until the batteries
ran down. The batteries are about two years old so the range has dropped to
less then
fifteen miles on a charge. They didn't get too far.
If you let a lead acid battery sit for a while they will recover slightly so
with a little pushing
and a little driving I was able to get it home.
I had reported the car stolen so I had to call the police after I found it
and wait for them to
show up, but they were very pleasant and everything is fine. The only damage
seems to be
the lock and battery damage. When you completely drain a lead acid battery
their life is
shortened and they will never again hold a charge as well. You should
always leave about
a 20% charge in the batteries. All in all, I'm very happy to have the car
back with so little
damage.
Does anyone know a GEM repairperson in LA to fix the lock for me?
One more unexpected use for a Yahoo Group".... stolen property recovery ;-)
Robert
> >
> > --- goelectric13 <bhava13@> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm just putting the word out that my 2001 GEM that
> > > I've been happily driving for the last
> > > two and a half years has been stolen. It was taken
> > > from a locked parking lot a few days
> > > ago in Venice CA. I think they must have used a
> > > truck to take it away. The batters were
> > > about two years old so the range was down to about
> > > fifteen miles.
> > >
> > > I drive it almost everyday.
> > >
> > > The GEM community is kind of small so I was
> > > wandering if any of you would have any
> > > ideas of were I could look?
> > >
> > >
> > > Robert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:28 PM 12/31/2006, you wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The Wabbit now has 30,000 miles on the SAFT 100 MRE flooded NiCad
batteries. So far, so good. We shall see how they do as time and
miles click by. I drive 28 miles each way to work every day.
Sorry Bill, I envy your car. Compared to NiCDs even AGMs make me
just say yuck. Even with the hand-watering 252 cells I have to say
lead makes me go yuk.
The central watering/venting system makes watering the SAFT 100 MRE
batteries a ten minute job. I pull off the end cap, then connect a
chunk of hose to the end battery. I then syphon in distilled water
until it comes out the other end. Blow out the excess water,
disconnect the hose, and replace the end cap and I'm done. I have
four places I do that. About ten minutes.
Aside from attempting to murder them with an outrageous overcharge
one night, they haven't lost any noticeable capacity. (About a year
ago, I lost about 10 to15 A-hrs by overcharging them with an extra
120 A-hrs at 20 amps.) Any other battery would have been DOA with
such abuse. They are at about 85 to 90 A-hr capacity right now.
How did that happen out of curiosity? I've found that when the
BB600's are full, they just don't accept any more charge and sit
there at voltage.
The acceptance voltage is inversely dependant on
temperature. When the batteries are warm, they will suck overcharge
amps at as low as 180 volts. When cold, you might need to go as high
as 210 volts.
I put water in them about every 2000 miles.
How do you know they need water? Does the profile change at all?
At about 2000 miles, it takes about 3 to 4 gallons to top
them all off. This seems like a reasonable time to top them off. It
is likely that could wait a little longer. The spec sheet say that
you should fill them after 1000 a-hrs of overcharge.
http://www.e-m-w.com/manuals/ Since I put in about 20 to 25 amps of
overcharge every 56 miles, 2000 miles is about when they are due.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are going electric for your sailboat the primary use is getting you
to and from your anchorage. You can't possibly charge under way unless you
use wind chargiing or drag a hydrocharger along while under sail. If you
ever get into trouble and need to power out of a dangeous situation you will
know your limitations. Personally I'd go on vegetable oil with the Perkins
but that's me. I use a veggie car for long distance and an EV for in town.
Please don't litterly throw the Perkins overboard. I'm sure someone will
buy it from you. (have you ever done a diesel purge? It can restore power)
What you might do for power on your ev system is see what charging solutions
for crusing boats are available and use that voltage for your motive power.
That way you won't need many conversions to different voltage levels.
Running to waterline speed shouldn't be too hard. You might be suprised
what you can do with different props. I suspect a 48v system might work for
you. What will you do about your cabin lights and such. You need to
consider that too. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Hannah" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 3:25 PM
Subject: Electric for diesel swap in sailboat.
> Hi,
>
> First of all happy 2007!
>
> I just joined the list because I'd love to swap out my aging diesel
> for an electric motor on my sailboat. We're sick of the diesel, the
> oil and the noise... So we've decided to try and make our Christmas
> present to heave the motor overboard and drop in an electric!
>
> I'd really appreciate any comments on the requirements. I've done
> some reading and there seem to be very few people mentioning
> converting their boat over, but those that have rave about it.
>
> Currently it's got a 50hp Perkins diesel, but it's about 20 years old
> and probably putting out half that, and is probably still overpowered
> for my requirements.
>
> The one other person who I've got some details about was using a 36
> volt motor and used the amp meter as a 'tacho', mainly running it at
> about 50amp. Theirs was a smaller lighter sailboat, so I'm guessing
> that more up around 75-100amp is more likely for our situation. This
> will bring our speed down from ~5knots under power to 2-3, but it's a
> price we're more than willing to pay.
>
> (We would probably also look at overpowering our tender outboard a
> little and storing that 10-15hp outboard on the back of the sailboat
> on a lifting rack that will allow us to use this as a backup or extra
> kick if it's ever required.)
>
> Some of the things I'm interested in knowing are:
>
> * Is 36v the right option?
>
> * There will be some charging from 240v, but it will have to be able
> to charge from solar/wind primarily. How would this be achieved, do
> we have a separate solar/wind charging circuit for 36v and one
> (already there) for 12v, or can they be combined in some way? Could
> we invert the 12v charging to 240v and pass it into the shore power
> charger or is the double conversion cost too high? Could I/should I
> charge the engine bank/s at 36v, and the charge the house gear from
> that? Could I/should I do away with the house power and run them off
> the 36v via a voltage reducer of some kind?
>
> * How exactly do I calculate running time? I'm working on the fact
> that the batteries are 6v/220Ah (from memory) which I think gives us
> approx. 2hr at 100amp at 36v for a bank of 6 in series. Twice that
> for two banks, we would have storage room for 2 banks..
>
> * Is this the kind of motor I'm looking for (Advanced DC Motor
> #A00-4009 --
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=519&product_id=1102)
> or am I on the wrong track there.
>
> * I'm probably likely to leave the charging circuit on 24/7 through a
> regulating (smart?) charger of some kind, does this have implications
> for battery choice? I'm expecting that I'd run the motor approx 30-45
> minutes in a 'normal' anchorage entry/exit, and the likelyhood of
> running down the battery to flat is unlikely and would only happen in
> a emergency of some kind.
>
> * How do I control this? This I have no idea about except I would
> want variable speed with reverse.
>
> * What have I forgotten?
>
> Sorry about the very long first post, but I'm very excited about the
> possibility of getting this done! It'd be a long-time dream realised!
>
> Thanks,
> Paul.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wind, solar and hydro aren't the only ways to recharge underway.
And on a sailboat, may not come close to the alternatives.
If you can get by with 2HP or less, a Honda 2kw genset will deliver 1.6kw
continuously to a charger.
I use that on my boat, along with enough onboard chargers to deliver 40amps
to my 36v pack while underway. While that's only enough for my 4000#
bargeboat to do a bit over 4knots, a similar size/weight sailboat hull would
do even better. So at under 1/4gallon per hour for those emergency
situations, a genset/charger arrangement can get you to port. If I'm going
more than 25miles in a day, I always bring mine along.
Go ahead, throw the noisy diseasel overboard...or get a much smaller diesel
genset to replace it with when you go electric.
As mentioned by Rod, those interested in boat conversions might do well to
check out the Electric Boats list on Yahoo.
-Myles Twete, moderator, Electric Boats list
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, it wasn't the Rose Parade. As I walked by the TV for coffee I saw
Ed Begley. As the parade coverage ended on HGTV they did a half hour
preview of 'Living with Ed' which starts next Sunday.
Very entertaining! Watch
it!
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Myles and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Electric for diesel swap in sailboat.
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 10:29:15 -0800
>Wind, solar and hydro aren't the only ways to recharge
>underway. And on a sailboat, may not come close to the
>alternatives.
Hydro is the way on a sailboat by using the prop as a
rotor to turn the shunt/PM motor to use it as a gen. Are you
all not doing this yet? I mentioned it 10 yrs ago and
several times since.
Especially using PM or AC motors, you can just use a
regn controller like the Sevcon to buck up the gen output to
the battery voltage. It works especially well with flat
pitched sailboat props.
So while sailing or anchored in a current, you can
charge all you want ;^D While this isn't eff, there is so
much power available, most boats will need to keep it turned
off most of the time. And recharge while sailing too.
It should work great in SF bay for powerboats,
anchor in the tide going the wrong way recharging, then go
with the tide and tidal powered EV charge you could travel
from Maine to Key West using no other fuel!!
That's how my next boats fuel, house power will
work and will even have AC for the Fla summer!! As soon as
the Freedom is launched, I'm selling my home, building a new
cat or outrigger and moving back onboard ;^D
But back to his problem, without knowing what boat
he is using, it's performance, his sailing skill and how he
plans to use it, not much can be recommended that means
anything. Maybe he will tell us?
And for a gen, I would never use any but a DC gen
for battery charging, preferably a diesel.
Jerry Dycus
If you can get by with 2HP or less, a Honda
>2kw genset will deliver 1.6kw continuously to a charger.
>I use that on my boat, along with enough onboard chargers
>to deliver 40amps to my 36v pack while underway. While
>that's only enough for my 4000# bargeboat to do a bit over
>4knots, a similar size/weight sailboat hull would do even
>better. So at under 1/4gallon per hour for those emergency
>situations, a genset/charger arrangement can get you to
>port. If I'm going more than 25miles in a day, I always
>bring mine along. Go ahead, throw the noisy diseasel
>overboard...or get a much smaller diesel genset to replace
>it with when you go electric.
>
>As mentioned by Rod, those interested in boat conversions
>might do well to check out the Electric Boats list on
>Yahoo.
>
>-Myles Twete, moderator, Electric Boats list
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:20 AM 12/31/2006, you wrote:
I've been looking at contactors, fuses, and circuit breakers, and
had the idea of using a circuit breaker as a contactor by creating a
setup that can switch the breaker on and off. This would eliminate
the contactor as well as reduce the continuous power draw of the coil to it.
I'm surprised this hasn't been done before or is offered as a
product, so there must be some downside to it.
It would turn on-off much slower than a contactor, so my guess is
that might be an issue in general, but for a car, I don't see that
as a problem.
In fact, I see a combination of a power-turn-on device that does a
pre-charge to the controller and once complete will turn on the breaker.
The breaker will still break if over-current, but then can be turned
off electrically.
Is there some issue I'm missing?
Something no one else has mentioned is the Curtis deadman switch. If
you are using a Curtis controller and you wire it up PROPERLY as the
factory intends, the microswitch on the potbox operates as a deadman
safety switch. Every time you lift your foot off the throttle, the
contactor opens. Some people worry about this wearing out the
contacts. It does not. We have had contactors in service for 10-15
years like this with no noticeable wear. Some people claim this
constant opening and closing is annoying. It would be even more
annoying (to say the least) to encounter a runaway condition or some
other problem in motion and not be able to cut power quickly
enough. THAT'S why it is there. We have had one customer with a
runaway condition in all these years, but wouldn't you know, he was
one who had wired around the microswitch. He did manage to get the
car stopped, but had to change his shorts.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Bob -
Good practical feed back on what to expect out the floodies.
Just up and running as of July 06 with 18 - T-890's.
I'm gentle with them but always looking for clues on just how much abuse they
can tolerate and what to expect from them.
The recent discussions about the limits on voltage sag was also very helpful.
This helps.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hi Tom;
>
> I'll take a stab at your battery life estimate. I ran a 120 volt Rabbit,
> with a ADC 9" motor ans DCP Rapture controller, used to pull 150-200 amps to
> go down the freeway at 60-70 mpg, every day on a 26 mile each way commute. I
> got about 20 thousand miles on a pak of T 145's, about 21K on a pak of
> 105's. I beat the shit out of them, though, with 4-500 amp turnpike
> launches. I WILL NOT come on a freway at 25-30 mph and expect ANYBODY to let
> me in!!Ya hafta cram it into 4th and floor it to get on at 50-60 mph or
> better.Toward the end of the batteries life I was replacing individual
> batteries that just died of old age, or cell reversal. Believe me, ya sure
> find the bum ones driving like that. EVerything from a warm one to a full
> blown "Trojan Teakettle" Boiling ,frothing ,reversed cell! Battery is junk,
> at this point!But as they all aged together, failure is almost contagious!?
> "well, if HE can go, so can I" and they start to go in sympathy. The animate
> perversity of inanimate objects, one of the more obscure Murphy Laws<g>!
>
> But as you are discovering; the short trips with frequent charging, EVen
> if it is only 10 amps for an hour here an' there, will almost double your
> range!If EV's EVer become common enough, and 240 volt 50 amp outlets are put
> out for us, and ya have one of Rich's chargers, you could go on forever!EV
> touring EVen!
>
> Seeya at Battery Beach Burnout!
>
> Bob
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 6:00 PM
> Subject: Electric Isuzu
>
>
> > I have been just looking at my records over the past year and reading
> others post. Since I put my Electric Isuzu on the road 3rd March 2006 I
> have driven it almost every day over 20 miles per day and on the weekend I
> will drive it over 100 miles at times. Of course not all in one trip. But
> if you charge when you get home from the store and then go again and plug in
> again you would be surprized at how many miles you can go in one day. So
> any how I have driven a total of 6000 mile the first year and that was not a
> full 12 months.
> >
> > I have not had any trouble except one day I forgot to plug the inverter in
> and the contactor kept dropping out on me. The 12v battery was going dead.
> After I pluged it back in and used my ball point pen to get it started
> everything was ok.
> >
> > I guess the question I have is when I read about alot of the posts they
> say that after 2 years of driving they now have 6,000 miles on their vehicle
> or so. If I am putting on 6 or more thousand miles per year how long will
> my batteries last?
> >
> > I am using a Zivan charger and a 120 volt pack of Interstate us2200
> batteries. I have to water them every 50 days or so and it is nice to just
> come home and plug in the batteries and not worry about what is happening.
> This has been about the best thing I have ever done.
> >
> > It was not that hard to convert and I don't do alot of fussing with it.
> It was just about plug and play.
> >
> > Tom Carpenter
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.409 / Virus Database: 268.16.1/611 - Release Date: 12/31/06
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just place my motor in the car and I have some space left for a
pulley for my AC, the problem is I need a pulley that can work on the
shaft with the keyway portion more toward the end of the shat since
the car body is about 1" above the shaft end. If the pulley were
positioned close to the motor it should fit in the space. Here are
some pics to see what it looks like.
http://web.mac.com/markdutko/iWeb/Pictures/Photos.html
I've seen aftermarket performance pulleys that work with the ribbed
belt but I need to find one that can work with the warp 9 or have one
that can be machined to work. I have about 1.25" clearance from the
motor housing to the car unibody- I could make some more room with a
hammer of course. The other option is to abandon this option and look
at a aux motor down the road, or have the system discharged and
remove the compressor and heat exchanger from the engine compartment.
Thanks,
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: LANZAR OPTICAP1000 100 Farad Capacitor
Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2006 21:08:19 -0500
The payback is negligible. If you sag your battery from 12.5v to 10.5v,
your dV is 2 volts. The energy you get out of a 100F capacitor in the act
of pulling it down 2 volts is 1/2*c*v^2 which is 200 joules, or 200
watt*seconds. If you drag the battery down over 1 second time period you
will be able to draw 16 extra amps (avg 11.5v)
You can't use the equation that way to calculate changes in energy.
You have to calculate the energy in the capacitor with the voltage at 12.5
volts ( 1/2 x 100 x 12.5^2 = 7812 watt-seconds) , and then subtract from
that the remaining energy at 10.5 volts ( 1/2 x 100 x 10.5^2 = 5513
watt-seconds). So, if you draw down the capacitor from 12.5 volts to 10.5
volts, you get (7812-5513 = ) 2300 watt-seconds. ( about a factor of 10
more than your calculation).
So, now, we get about 180 amps during a 1 second boost. Still, not a lot,
but not quite as neglible.
A much easier ( and, more direct) way to do that calculation would be to use
the relationship between charge and voltage on a capacitor. Charge ( in
coulombs, or amp-seconds) = voltage change x capacitance.
This relationship holds for any voltage change; it doesn't depend on the
specific starting or ending voltage.
So, with a two volt drop in a 100F capacitor, you get 200 amp-seconds (or,
two hundred amps for a period of one second). Exactly. There are no
assumptions about average voltage required if you do it this way.
You would get this same 200 amp-s current boost with a drop from 12.5 V to
10.5V, or from 3V to 1 V.
Phil
_________________________________________________________________
The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the scoop.
http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two affordable EVs for any buyer selling well in London, with upgraded
models following up. Vectrix is also finally done, at a steep price
but still there.
These are actual practical production vehicles that you can go and buy
and own and save money and environment with, no lease-take back-crush
tricks this time around.
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like this e wheeler...
http://www.carver-worldwide.com/Movies/LoadMovie.asp?S_ID=64&nc=1
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of peekay
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:12 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: 3 wheelers stability issues
i guess this settles the issue for me :
"Consequently, the single rear wheel layout is usually considered the
superior platform for a high-performance consumer automobile"
from this page : "Three-Wheel Vehicle Handling Characteristics.htm"
on rqriley.com
now the issue of which wheel(s) the EV power pack should drive :
the ONE rear wheel
OR
the TWO front wheels ?
..peekay
___________________________________________________________
Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New
Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A commenter on the Energy Blog set the record straight on the cost of
the batteries:
http://thefraserdomain.typepad.com/energy/2006/12/altairnano_comp.html
quote:
NO, the battery packs do NOT cost $75,000
apiece. They cost approximately $14,000 each.
Most of the $750,000 was for engineering service fees performed by
Altair in engineering the batteries and packs for the vehicles Phoenix
is using. So far, every single forum has committed this confusion.
Isn't the internet just grand? It can spread more ignorance in less
time than a boatload of gossipy old maids ever could. Just like TV. It
was going to make every citizen well informed. Over 80% of these folks
think we've been visited by aliens. And you want these bozos sitting
on a jury and deciding your fate?
/quote
-kert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good point. A squared term is not linear...
I was indeed mixing up charge and energy.
--
Martin K
Phil Marino wrote:
> You can't use the equation that way to calculate changes in energy.
>
> You have to calculate the energy in the capacitor with the voltage at
> 12.5 volts ( 1/2 x 100 x 12.5^2 = 7812 watt-seconds) , and then
> subtract from that the remaining energy at 10.5 volts ( 1/2 x 100 x
> 10.5^2 = 5513 watt-seconds). So, if you draw down the capacitor from
> 12.5 volts to 10.5 volts, you get (7812-5513 = ) 2300 watt-seconds.
> ( about a factor of 10 more than your calculation).
>
> So, now, we get about 180 amps during a 1 second boost. Still, not a
> lot, but not quite as neglible.
>
>
>
> A much easier ( and, more direct) way to do that calculation would be
> to use the relationship between charge and voltage on a capacitor.
> Charge ( in coulombs, or amp-seconds) = voltage change x capacitance.
> This relationship holds for any voltage change; it doesn't depend on
> the specific starting or ending voltage.
>
> So, with a two volt drop in a 100F capacitor, you get 200 amp-seconds
> (or, two hundred amps for a period of one second). Exactly. There are
> no assumptions about average voltage required if you do it this way.
>
> You would get this same 200 amp-s current boost with a drop from 12.5
> V to 10.5V, or from 3V to 1 V.
>
> Phil
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> The MSN Entertainment Guide to Golden Globes is here. Get all the
> scoop. http://tv.msn.com/tv/globes2007/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>Jerry doesn't bother with calculations, or measurements.
>
> That would be a good line if it were true which by now
> you know is not as my calc's were already posted first, at
> least in my e mail. ;^D Maybe next time you could give me a
> little time to respond than an hr or 2?
Sorry Jerry, I was just trying to help you out. WHat I said has been your
standard response to me when ever I questioned your postings.
Like for example, how it is you use the weight of the batteries in your
Freedom EV to lower the center of gravity of the whole vehicle below the
center of gravity of the batteries. That doesn't make sense to me.
When I've asked how you measured or calculated your posted extreemly low
CoG and Cd for the Freedown EV, you've always stated that you don't need
to measure these items and can state them with certainty based on your
"Vast Amount of Experience"
FWIW I don't doubt your skills as a fabricator, the Freedom EV looks great.
I just wish yo'd either stop making questionable claims about it, or back
them up with something other that your "Vast Amount of Experience". Maybe
some actual facts and measured figures.
> As you know I'm not great at higher math but that
> doesn't mean I can't figure out things. I, like the
> boatbuilders, other craftsmen of old, design by rules of
> thumb, %, and known working examples, ratio's.
I have no problem with rules of thumb, or even crafting items using
nothing but the old mark 1 eyeball. I have great admiration for these
types of craftsmen.
My only issue is with posting concrete numbers and then refusing to back
them up with measurements or even decent calculations.
> To me this is
> more accurate most times than strict calculations as you
> have to verify them anyways which means I just save a step
> over pure calcs.
This is my problem, you don't bother to verify figures, so you believe
that makes them acurate.
My grandfather (who was a tool and die maker) used to have a joke about
this. He said it was better to only measure once, since that way the
measurement would always agree with itself. If you measure twice, then
the measurements might not agree and you've now introduced error into your
measurements.
You've taken this a step further and eliminated the first measurement.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The payback is negligible. If you sag your battery from 12.5v to 10.5v,
your dV is 2 volts. The energy you get out of a 100F capacitor in the
act of pulling it down 2 volts is 1/2*c*v^2 which is 200 joules, or 200
watt*seconds. If you drag the battery down over 1 second time period you
will be able to draw 16 extra amps (avg 11.5v)
Actually, the energy is negligible * 10.
At 12.5V, you have 1/2 * 100F * 12.5V^2 = 7812.5J
At 10.5V, you have 1.2 * 100F * 10.5V^2 = 5512.5J
Useable energy is 7812.5J - 5512.5J = 2300J or 2300 wattseconds or 0.639
watthours. Enough to go 13 feet at 250WH/mile.
To buffer a 156V pack, put a 100F cap across each battery for 13*2300J =
29,900J of useable juice. Then crank up the Zilla 1K to 800 battery amps.
With an average cap voltage of 11.5V:
11.5V * 13 (# of caps) * 800A = 119,600 watts. 29,900J/119,600W = 0.25s of
acceleration! Wooohooo!
OK, not so useful. But if you put 12 caps across each battery you would
have 3 seconds of blistering acceleration to pass the car in front of you,
get up to speed on the on-ramp, etc. At $38,000 for 156 caps that's a
steal!
Would it really help the batteries much? Obviously the cap will drain
quickly under sustained heavy loads. But what about draws UNDER 133A? (2V
battery sag / 15mOhm battery ESR = 133A max recharge current to the cap)
Say you're cruising at 100A. Instead of 800A (WAG) current spikes at 15KHz
the battery would see a relatively constant 100A draw. MAYBE Peukert would
give you a few more AH from that battery...
Adrian
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
The size of pulley that is use on a motor shaft could be about the same size
that was on a engine. My drive pulley on a engine was 6 inches in diameter.
At 6000 rpm, the drive pulley on the A/C is 5 inches in diameter which is
turning about 7200 rpm. At 500 rpm motor speed, then the A/C would be about
400 rpm which is about the minimum for the compressor to work.
A Dodge Power Transmission Inc. 6 inch pulley, call a 3V QD Sheave for
1-groove is 0.81 inch wide.
I could not install this size pulley on the motor shaft, because I had only
1.5 inch clearance from the motor shaft to a frame member.
So I install a shaft extender, which is just a solid coupler with a short
piece of drive shaft coming out of the coupler for installing a pulley.
In my later mod, I install a 6 inch shaft that is connected to the motor
pilot shaft with a Dodge D-Flex coupler. The other end of this shaft is
connected to a Dodge Shaft Mounted Electric Clutch which a output shaft is
held in place with face bearings and a multi groove pulley for industrial V3
3/8x5/16 cog belts which also comes gang together that looks like the flat
tooth belts.
This accessory drive units drive, a A/C, Power Steering, Alternator-Inverter
and a vacuum pump which are all GMC units mounted on a GMC aluminum mounting
plate, that is normally attach to a Semi diesel engine. The accessory
units are mounted independent on engine rubber mounts in four places.
Any time, I let up on the accelerator, a micro switch engages the clutches
to the accessory drive, which gives me a mechanical regen to which slows the
EV down a long steep icy hill.
As I press on the accelerator, the clutch disengages the pilot shaft of the
motor and a 5 hp Honeywell motor that comes off the main battery pack drives
all the accessories.
I am in the process of replacing this 5 hp motor with two smaller motors and
a electric power steering unit.
This can give you many different accessory drive options.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "MARK DUTKO" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 01, 2007 2:08 PM
Subject: AC Pulley Mod for Warp 9- Help!
> I just place my motor in the car and I have some space left for a
> pulley for my AC, the problem is I need a pulley that can work on the
> shaft with the keyway portion more toward the end of the shat since
> the car body is about 1" above the shaft end. If the pulley were
> positioned close to the motor it should fit in the space. Here are
> some pics to see what it looks like.
>
> http://web.mac.com/markdutko/iWeb/Pictures/Photos.html
>
>
> I've seen aftermarket performance pulleys that work with the ribbed
> belt but I need to find one that can work with the warp 9 or have one
> that can be machined to work. I have about 1.25" clearance from the
> motor housing to the car unibody- I could make some more room with a
> hammer of course. The other option is to abandon this option and look
> at a aux motor down the road, or have the system discharged and
> remove the compressor and heat exchanger from the engine compartment.
>
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
