EV digest 6280

Sun, 07 Jan 2007 08:15:57 -0800 

                            EV Digest 6280

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) RE: Charger Interlock/Contactor/DC COnv Question
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  2) Re: Two motor questions
        by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  3) Re: Precharge light bulb
        by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  4) RE: Two motor questions
        by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  5) Re: How to test a motor?
        by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  6) Re: Rolands Ebike
        by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  7) Re: How to test a motor?
        by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  8) Looking for Kapton heaters
        by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  9) Re: How to test a motor?
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 10) Re: Two motor questions
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 11) Re: How to test a motor?
        by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 12) Re: Precharge light bulb
        by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 13) Re: Two motor questions
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 14) Re: How to test a motor?
        by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 15) Re: Big Red Panic Button
        by "Ev Performance (Robert Chew)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 16) Chevy VOLT
        by "EVdave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 17) 2007 Detroit Auto Show & PHEV
        by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 18) Re:Currenteliminator dragster news!
        by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 19) Re: 2007 Detroit Auto Show & PHEV
        by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 20) Re: 2007 Detroit Auto Show & PHEV
        by "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 21) GM+Media+Online
        by "Tom Carpenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 22) Re: How to test a motor?
        by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message --- 
Dave,

Correct - you connect the 110V charger to Neutral and one hot.
(And ground, if it has a 3-wire cord).

Your adapter cord can only power the Schumacher and PFC if 
it connects the Neutral to the house Neutral and one of the
house 'hot' wires, the one that is NOT connected to the 
Schumacher, so the Schumacher will see 110 always through
the other hot and the neutral, while the PFC will see 110
from the adapter's connection of the first hot to Neutral
and the other hot to 110 and it will see 240 if the house
is plugged into a Nema 14-30 power source.

NOTE that all circuits in your vehicle may be affected
by this - if you have a 240V device that will break or
malfunction at 110 then be very careful to disable it
before plugging in the adapter.
Also the power draw is a concern, but I assume you are
aware of that one.

Hope this clarifies,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Dave Cover
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 8:21 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charger Interlock/Contactor/DC COnv Question


Roland, and everyone;

I'm trying do the same thing, and I have some wiring questions. I'm charging
off 220 and I believe
I can run the Schumacher off just one leg. This will keep the house battery
fresh any time the car
is plugged in. The other wrinkle is that I want to be able to run the PFC-30
off 110 or 220.

I have a NEMA 14-30 4 prong twist lock connector in the car. Normally I just
plug in the big
extension cord from my 220 outlet. But I also want to make a short adapter
cord so I can plug the
car into 110 for opportunity charging.

So how do I wire the 110 Schumacher charger to the 4 wires (2 hot, one
neutral, one ground) inside
the car? Just use one hot leg and the neutral?

How do I make the adapter that will go between a 110 extension cord on one
end and the 14-30 4
prong receptacle on the car side? Will I be able to keep the Schumacher
connected? Am I asking for
too much? It is probably simple for some of you, but not obvious to me.

Thanks for the help.

Dave Cover

--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello Mike,
> 
> It is easier to use a small on board 12 volt smart charger that is
connected 
> to you AC input for your main battery charger.  Every time you you have
the 
> main AC plug on, your 12 volt charger can come on at the same time.
> 
> This is what I do,  The AC from the main 50 amp input goes to a on board
20 
> amp circuit breaker which the 12 volt charger is connected to.
> 
> I am use a Solid State Schumacher Model WM-5000A.  Current select of 2, 
> 10-30 amp.  It has digital voltage and state of charge indicators. It will

> auto stop the balk charge and then go into a maintainer cycle.
> 
> It will charge standard, deep cycle, AGM or Gel batteries.
> 
> I purchase my unit from Wal-Mart or from www.walmart.com.
> 
> Roland
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mike Harvey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, January 05, 2007 11:34 AM
> Subject: Charger Interlock/Contactor/DC COnv Question
> 
> 
> > Hey All,
> >
> > I have a quick question on modifying my charging operation to allow for 
> > charging of the aux battery at the same time the pack is charging.
> >
> > I was wondering how I could provide charger interlock functionality
while 
> > still allowing the DC to DC converter to charge the aux battery while
the 
> > pack is charging and not pull it off thew main pack during operation. 
> > Since the main contactor in my setup feeds the DC conv through only when

> > the keyswitch relay sees ignition, the DC converter has no voltage
during 
> > charge and therefore doesnt charge the aux battery.
> >
> > I was thinking of a second contactor on the (-) side of the pack to 
> > disable the controller when the charger interlock is engaged but would 
> > prefer it be a normally closed contactor so there is only a 12 load
during 
> > charge.
> >
> > Any experience, thoughts or ideas that can help me get at a safe and 
> > reliable solution?
> >
> > TIA, Mike
> >
> >
> > Mike Harvey
> > Harvey Coachworks
> > "They Killed It". We're Bringing It Back to Life"
> >
> > 
> 
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- Silicon is expensive, but is a requirement over a modest power level on a bike.
We briefly tried series/parallel with SVR motorcycle batteries. We are planning to try this again soon. Right now, we are simply running the motors in parallel.
As I said earlier, because they are series-wound motors, they parallel very nicely. This is because the back EMF of the motor is dependent on the current. Thus, if the current is less in motor A, then the voltage in that motor drops significantly, causing it to draw more current. If the current is higher in motor A, then the voltage goes up quite a bit, causing the current to reduce. The effect is quite a bit stronger than simple resistance alone. 

Bill Dube'


At 06:39 PM 1/6/2007, you wrote:

Dale,
Are you saying a motor on the front wheel and another on the back? I think I've heard of this once, but as I recall, the results weren't pretty. Two controllers would be effective if a single controller couldn't deliver the amps you needed. I've run twin motors in a series/parallel configuration on my drag bike. Chained back to a common jackshaft. Contactor control. Silicon Sucks! 


Bill,
Do you run the motors series at launch and then parallel when the zilla decides it best, or just parallel? I guess if it's a zilla 2K, that may be enough amps even in full parallel. Would advancing/retarding the timing share the load between motor more closely? 


Darin
BadFishRacing

See you at BB

----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Dube" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Two motor questions


We run two motors on the KillaCycle.
http://www.KillaCycle.com

They are coupled via chain. They are wired in
parallel. They don't fight each other.

They are series-wound motors, so the back EMF
depends on current. This makes them load share
very nicely on the same controller.

I would imagine that two series-wound motors
would load share nicely, even if they were connected to different wheels.

Bill Dube'

At 03:45 PM 1/6/2007, you wrote:
If anyone has any knowledge or insight on how to best configure two motors [identical motors oriented in the same direction] on an motorcycle [I'm sure that configuring two motors on a car should be similar in a lot of ways]. If these answers can be found in the 'archives', that I've heard mentioned, please let me know how to search them, otherwise:
Please think about how much stress [fighting against each other, etc.], loss of efficiency, and other issues are expected with the following scenarios: 


   One motor can be put on the front and one on the back.
both motors on the rear, but each one on separate chain/belt drives on either side of the wheel both motors on the rear, but both on the same chain/belt drive, for this scenario what is the best way to place the two motors?
Furthermore I would like to consider the three above scenarios with either both motors running off of one controller or each motor off of separate controllers [the controllers will be identical also] 



check out my blog:

http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
From: JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> A previous owner wired a 7 watt 120v light bulb across the contactor
> to precharge the Curtis 1231C controller. I have never seen a
> reference to this approach.  It leaves the controller wired to 132 volts
> peak from the Zivan ng3 charger through the bulb. Pros and Cons?

Yes, it's been discussed before. I use a 75w light bulb as a precharge resistor 
in my own EV, in fact.

Pros: It's simple, inexpensive, and works.

Cons: Light bulbs can be fragile, especially the little 7w one you have. A 
"rough service" 130v bulb would be a better choice.

You don't want to leave the bulb in the circuit all the time, or you're leaving 
the controller "on" as you said. I have a small relay contact in series with my 
bulb; when I turn on the key, this relay pulls in and connects the bulb. When 
the controller has precharged, its voltage pulls in a second relay, whose 
contacts enable the main contactor to close.
--
Lee Hart
 good choice.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Dale,

If you place the two motors above each other, in front of
the rear wheel, with their shaft and sprocket in the same 
direction and in the same plane as the rear wheel's sprocket,
then you would only need 1 chain, each motor is in a 90 deg
of the chain (give the bottom motor a bit more than the top
one, as any slack in the chain will reduce the length of chain
on the sprocket of the bottom motor.
You may need a large rear wheel sprocket, but it is a very 
simple setup.
You can calculate the sprocket ratio by calculating the max
revs at top speed of the rear wheel and divide the motor
redline revs by this number.

For example at a speed of 75 MPH (120 km/h) your rear wheel
moves about 6500ft (2000m) every minute. If the diameter is
a little over 2ft, it moves about 6.5ft (2m) per rev, so it
will turn at 1000 RPM.
If your motor redline is 5000 RMP then the rear sprocket
needs 5 times as many teeth as the front sprockets on the
motors, which is actually not too bad.

Regards,

Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water    IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel:   +1 408 542 5225     VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax:   +1 408 731 3675     eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks
Take your network further  http://www.proxim.com


-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of dale henderson
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 5:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Two motor questions


Yes one motor one each wheel is one of the possible configurations I'm
inquiring about, I'm just brain storming for my next bike.
   
  Those of you who have used two motors, can I get a little more detail on
the setup?  Like the rear wheel is driven by chain from the jackshaft, the
jackshaft has two other chains on it one from each motor, or one motor is
higher than the other, etc...
   
  I'm considering using two controllers not to reach high amps but to
maximize the batteries.  If say 8 12 volt batteries where divided into two
separate 4 12 volt battery packs [48 volts] then it would seem that two
controllers drawing from their own battery pack would yield 20-30% more
range than one controller drawing from all 8 batteries [the 8 batteries
would also be 48 volt, serial/parallel configuration]  
   
  thanks for the help
   
  
BFRListmail <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Dale,

Are you saying a motor on the front wheel and another on the back? I think 
I've heard of this once, but as I recall, the results weren't pretty.
Two controllers would be effective if a single controller couldn't deliver 
the amps you needed.
I've run twin motors in a series/parallel configuration on my drag bike. 
Chained back to a common jackshaft. Contactor control. Silicon Sucks!


Bill,

Do you run the motors series at launch and then parallel when the zilla 
decides it best, or just parallel? I guess if it's a zilla 2K, that may be 
enough amps even in full parallel.
Would advancing/retarding the timing share the load between motor more 
closely?


Darin
BadFishRacing

See you at BB

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Bill Dube" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 6:49 PM
Subject: Re: Two motor questions


We run two motors on the KillaCycle.
http://www.KillaCycle.com

They are coupled via chain. They are wired in
parallel. They don't fight each other.

They are series-wound motors, so the back EMF
depends on current. This makes them load share
very nicely on the same controller.

I would imagine that two series-wound motors
would load share nicely, even if they were connected to different wheels.

Bill Dube'

At 03:45 PM 1/6/2007, you wrote:
>
> If anyone has any knowledge or insight on how to best configure two 
> motors [identical motors oriented in the same direction] on an motorcycle 
> [I'm sure that configuring two motors on a car should be similar in a lot 
> of ways]. If these answers can be found in the 'archives', that I've 
> heard mentioned, please let me know how to search them, otherwise:
>
> Please think about how much stress [fighting against each other, etc.], 
> loss of efficiency, and other issues are expected with the following 
> scenarios:
>
>
> One motor can be put on the front and one on the back.
> both motors on the rear, but each one on separate chain/belt drives on 
> either side of the wheel
> both motors on the rear, but both on the same chain/belt drive, for 
> this scenario what is the best way to place the two motors?
>
> Furthermore I would like to consider the three above scenarios with 
> either both motors running off of one controller or each motor off of 
> separate controllers [the controllers will be identical also]
>
>
>
>check out my blog:
>
>http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
> __________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com



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check out my blog:

http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
 __________________________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
I read your website.

First off 2 ohms is not a short. V = R * I, so at 12 V your field will
draw 6 amps. Your battery is capable of supplying about 1000 amps. So
just hook up the field to one battery and the armature to another and
it should spin. Use some good battery clamps though, starter cables
should work.

Good luck



On 1/6/07, Aaron Quinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I'm new to EV's, but I really want to build at least one EV to show
people that it can be done. I was waiting to send this out question
until I had built my little website about it so that if anyone has
any questions about the pieces and parts, you could check there.
Here's the link for the site:

http://www.quintonet.com/qev1/

I'm using that as my "diary" or "weblog" of the build, for anyone
else that might try to do something like it in the future. One of the
sections I came up with is "Roadblocks." This is where I'm going to
list all of the problems I run into and how I either resolved them,
or got around them. So, at this point, I'm at roadblock # 2, which is
"Will the motor run?" This is where I need some help from the more
experienced EV'rs.

The motor I'm using is a separately excited one from a forklift and I
want to make sure that it will run under battery power before I
continue to buy a controller. I've tried to make note of everything
I've done so far on the website, but basically, here's my question to you:

What do I need to do to get a sepex motor running directly from a
battery? The book I have says that I need to install some type of
resistance in-line with the windings and the armature, but what do I
use for the resistance? I thought about maybe just getting a cheap
headlight and adding that in-line, but then I figured it would
probably blow because of the current of the motor. I tried wiring the
two fields in series, but that didn't do anything. What do you guys
suggest as a means of testing the motor to make sure I can get it to
actually spin?


Aaron Quinto
aaron at quintonet.com





--
www.electric-lemon.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Hi Rod,
I wish I could afford a $600 hub motor. That's quite a lot of money for me. I paid $150 for mine, just a plain old chinese brushed motor that looked like it could take about 30 amps. I resold it because I figured I could use the exercise anyway. 
It would be fun to put together a new ebike when I get a paying job though.
--
Martin K

Roderick Wilde wrote:
I do agree that hub motors offer the most elegant solution so don't write them off on 26 inch wheels just yet. I am running one of the new Phoenix series hub motors on a 26 inch wheel on my tandem. It will haul 2 people with a combined weight of over 375 pounds up a good hill. When going up this hill on my own I pedal to make it look like I am powering the bike and I pass guys on other bicycles like they are standing still. Since they can't see or hear my motor or see my batteries they think that I am Superman. It is hilarious! I am totally sold on them. They are also very efficient. I am running mine on 48 volts with a 40 amp controller. My friend Brian from Thunderstruck Motors says some people he knows are running them on as much as 90 volts. Pictures of my tandem here: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/1006 I plan on running my Schwinn Spoiler chopper tandem, (girl in back) on 72 volts. 

Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2006 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: Rolands Ebike
The double reduction is always an issue on bikes with large wheels. I built a bike with 20" wheels that had double reduction. They look like major hacks to me. Hub-motors are the most elegant but probably only practical on wheels 20" or smaller. I had a 26" chinese brushed hub-motor that worked decent once you were moving, on flat ground, but has insufficient torque to really get you moving from stop or go up any hills. Like the author writes, I think high torque BLDC motors have the most promise for ebikes. 
--
Martin K

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
One more thing. Your battery terminals are a lot more fragile than the
motor terminals so connect the cables to the battery terminals first
and then to the motor terminal, there will be some arcing, this is
normal.


On 1/6/07, Aaron Quinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

I'm new to EV's, but I really want to build at least one EV to show
people that it can be done. I was waiting to send this out question
until I had built my little website about it so that if anyone has
any questions about the pieces and parts, you could check there.
Here's the link for the site:

http://www.quintonet.com/qev1/

I'm using that as my "diary" or "weblog" of the build, for anyone
else that might try to do something like it in the future. One of the
sections I came up with is "Roadblocks." This is where I'm going to
list all of the problems I run into and how I either resolved them,
or got around them. So, at this point, I'm at roadblock # 2, which is
"Will the motor run?" This is where I need some help from the more
experienced EV'rs.

The motor I'm using is a separately excited one from a forklift and I
want to make sure that it will run under battery power before I
continue to buy a controller. I've tried to make note of everything
I've done so far on the website, but basically, here's my question to you:

What do I need to do to get a sepex motor running directly from a
battery? The book I have says that I need to install some type of
resistance in-line with the windings and the armature, but what do I
use for the resistance? I thought about maybe just getting a cheap
headlight and adding that in-line, but then I figured it would
probably blow because of the current of the motor. I tried wiring the
two fields in series, but that didn't do anything. What do you guys
suggest as a means of testing the motor to make sure I can get it to
actually spin?


Aaron Quinto
aaron at quintonet.com





--
www.electric-lemon.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- We need about 25 stick-on type Kapton heaters about 10" x 12" for the battery pack of the KillaCycle.
The max dimensions would be 12" x 14". However, we could use several smaller heaters to cover the same area instead. Looking for a good deal on something surplus because new ones are darn expensive. 

Thanks in advance,

Bill Dube'

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
> What do I need to do to get a sepex motor running directly from a
> battery? The book I have says that I need to install some type of
> resistance in-line with the windings and the armature, but what do I
> use for the resistance? I thought about maybe just getting a cheap
> headlight and adding that in-line, but then I figured it would
> probably blow because of the current of the motor.

Ok think about this, what is the worse case on the motor?  SHort circuit
right?  Ok what happens when you wire a light up to a battery through a
short circuit (think wire)?  It lights up.  The resistance in the light is
enough to limit the current to a safe amount for the light.

Anyway, the light is a good idea.

Second problem.  SepEx motors need to have the coils wired in parallel,
not series (That would be a Series wound motor).

It was suggested to skip the light and use jumper cables and connect them
to the motor last.  This WILL cause arcing and possibly damage the threads
on the motor terminals.  Best bet would be to use an extra set of cables
and a piece of sacrificial metal,  connect to the metal last so any arcing
damages it and not the motor or battery.

Try the light fist, it should limit the current to a pretty low level and
minimise arcing.

It's really hard to measure the resistance of a motor.  Motors typically
have less than 1 ohm of resistance, you need a special meter that can
measure super low resistance.  Even then it's hard to measure, you need to
rock the shaft back and forth to find the lowest resistance.

> I tried wiring the
> two fields in series, but that didn't do anything. What do you guys
> suggest as a means of testing the motor to make sure I can get it to
> actually spin?
>
>
> Aaron Quinto
> aaron at quintonet.com
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
When you connect two motors together they won't "fight against each other"
unless they are trying to turn in opposite directions.
Unless they are very closely matched, one might draw slightly more current
and produce slightly more power than the other, but they won't fight.

Efficiency also won't be effected unless you are running the motors
outside their desired operating envelope.
I.e. if one motor can produce 1 hp at 85% efficiency, then two motors can
produce 2 hp at 85% efficiency.
You might loose a little bit in belt/chain connecting them though.

Trying to connect two motors, one to each side of a wheel, will probably
require a custom wheel.  Not only this, but unless the motors are mounted
on the swing arm, the front motor is going to be a LONG way from the pivot
point, this can lead to problems with too much slack and the chain coming
off.

Two motors on the same chaindriving the rear wheel present some problems.
With a chain/belt drive system you normally want close to 180 degree wrap
around your drive sprocket.  If it is significantly less than this you
might end up with slippage, especially on bumps. You can solve this to an
extent with an idler sprocket, but that lowers efficiency somewhat. There
are other potential problems with two motors one one chain/belt to the
wheel.  Like suspension travel and associate chain length and sprocket
wrap.

Best bet would probably be to have both motors connected to each other
with a short chain/belt, and then a second sprocket on the rear motor
driving a second belt/chain to the rear wheel.

>
>   If anyone has any knowledge or insight on how to best configure two
> motors [identical motors oriented in the same direction] on an
> motorcycle [I’m sure that configuring two motors on a car should be
> similar in a lot of ways].  If these answers can be found in the
> ‘archives’, that I’ve heard mentioned, please let me know how to search
> them, otherwise:
>
>   Please think about how much stress [fighting against each other, etc…],
> loss of efficiency, and other issues are expected with the following
> scenarios:
>
>
>    One motor can be put on the front and one on the back.
>    both motors on the rear, but each one on separate chain/belt drives on
> either side of the wheel
>    both motors on the rear, but both on the same chain/belt drive, for
> this scenario what is the best way to place the two motors?
>
>   Furthermore I would like to consider the three above scenarios with
> either both motors running off of one controller or each motor off of
> separate controllers [the controllers will be identical also]
>
>
>
> check out my blog:
>
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
>  __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Thanks for your web page.

I, too, have a sepex motor. It is a never used Kostov. I'm about the same place 
you are, motor is still not in the car! Here are my observations:

I found the field had about 1 ohm. I forget what the armature had. Resistance 
between the field and armature was very high.

I tried hooking up in series for the fun of it, but the motor would not turn on 
12 Volts.

I hooked up in parallel, and the motor would spin, I think about 500 rpm. I 
tried a speed gauge with a flourescent light, but the marks weren't very stable.

The motor drew about 30 amps (roughly 10 on the field and 20 on the armature) 
to idle on 12 Volts.

It was fun to hook up the field to a battery charger, and the armature to a 12 
V battery. Then by switching the charger between 6 and 12 Volts, and 2 and 6 
Amps, you could plainly hear the motor change speeds.

Arcing was definitely a problem. It was strong enough I was afraid it was going 
to damage the threads, as it was damaging the jumper cables and a screwdriver. 
I put nuts on the motor posts, so they would be damaged rather than the 
threads. I also learned to not be shy and move quickly. Hooking up the jumper 
cable slowly gave big, metal damaging arcs.

I couldn't get the battery charger alone to spin the motor, it would flip its 
circuit breaker.

----- Original Message ----
From: Aaron Quinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2007 6:35:40 PM
Subject: How to test a motor?

I'm new to EV's, but I really want to build at least one EV to show 
people that it can be done. I was waiting to send this out question 
until I had built my little website about it so that if anyone has 
any questions about the pieces and parts, you could check there. 
Here's the link for the site:

http://www.quintonet.com/qev1/

I'm using that as my "diary" or "weblog" of the build, for anyone 
else that might try to do something like it in the future. One of the 
sections I came up with is "Roadblocks." This is where I'm going to 
list all of the problems I run into and how I either resolved them, 
or got around them. So, at this point, I'm at roadblock # 2, which is 
"Will the motor run?" This is where I need some help from the more 
experienced EV'rs.

The motor I'm using is a separately excited one from a forklift and I 
want to make sure that it will run under battery power before I 
continue to buy a controller. I've tried to make note of everything 
I've done so far on the website, but basically, here's my question to you:

What do I need to do to get a sepex motor running directly from a 
battery? The book I have says that I need to install some type of 
resistance in-line with the windings and the armature, but what do I 
use for the resistance? I thought about maybe just getting a cheap 
headlight and adding that in-line, but then I figured it would 
probably blow because of the current of the motor. I tried wiring the 
two fields in series, but that didn't do anything. What do you guys 
suggest as a means of testing the motor to make sure I can get it to 
actually spin?





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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
This sounds good.  Two details I could use advice on are:

1) The "small relay contact in series with the bulb" - Specifically what
relay or contactor would be suitable for this?  Rating / manufacturer /
source?

2) "When the controller has precharged, its voltage pulls in a second
relay" - How do you tell when the controller has precharged?  Where does
this second relay get its input from?

            Thanks!

            Bruce
____________________________________________________________________________
____________________

Lee Hart wrote:
You don't want to leave the bulb in the circuit all the time, or you're
leaving the controller "on" as you said. I have a small relay contact in
series with my bulb; when I turn on the key, this relay pulls in and
connects the bulb. When the controller has precharged, its voltage pulls in
a second relay, whose contacts enable the main contactor to close.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
>   I’m considering using two controllers not to reach high amps but to
> maximize the batteries.  If say 8 12 volt batteries where divided into
> two separate 4 12 volt battery packs [48 volts] then it would seem that
> two controllers drawing from their own battery pack would yield 20-30%
> more range than one controller drawing from all 8 batteries [the 8
> batteries would also be 48 volt, serial/parallel configuration]

Why would you think that?
The current will be exactly the same either way.
If you need 5kw to go a certain speed, the it works out to ~52 amps per
battery.  If you use two controllers, then each string needs to produce
52amps.  If you use buddy pairs, then the pairs have to produce 104 amps,
which is 52 amps per battery.

Power equals volts * amps. It ALWAYS works out to the same current per
battery no matter how you stack the batteries.

I.e. 5kw / 8 = 625 watts per battery, that works out to 12V @ ~52 amps.

Please note: for simplicity I've assumed an ideal battery that has no sag
and produces exactly 12V.  IRL the battery's voltage will sag under load
and it need to produce MORE current to make up for it, but the end result
STILL works out to exactly the same power per battery, which means the
same current.


>
> Bill,
>
> Do you run the motors series at launch and then parallel when the zilla
> decides it best, or just parallel? I guess if it's a zilla 2K, that may be
> enough amps even in full parallel.
> Would advancing/retarding the timing share the load between motor more
> closely?
>
>
> Darin
> BadFishRacing
>
> See you at BB
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bill Dube"
> To:
> Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2007 6:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Two motor questions
>
>
> We run two motors on the KillaCycle.
> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
> They are coupled via chain. They are wired in
> parallel. They don't fight each other.
>
> They are series-wound motors, so the back EMF
> depends on current. This makes them load share
> very nicely on the same controller.
>
> I would imagine that two series-wound motors
> would load share nicely, even if they were connected to different wheels.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 03:45 PM 1/6/2007, you wrote:
>>
>> If anyone has any knowledge or insight on how to best configure two
>> motors [identical motors oriented in the same direction] on an
>> motorcycle
>> [I'm sure that configuring two motors on a car should be similar in a
>> lot
>> of ways]. If these answers can be found in the 'archives', that I've
>> heard mentioned, please let me know how to search them, otherwise:
>>
>> Please think about how much stress [fighting against each other, etc.],
>> loss of efficiency, and other issues are expected with the following
>> scenarios:
>>
>>
>> One motor can be put on the front and one on the back.
>> both motors on the rear, but each one on separate chain/belt drives on
>> either side of the wheel
>> both motors on the rear, but both on the same chain/belt drive, for
>> this scenario what is the best way to place the two motors?
>>
>> Furthermore I would like to consider the three above scenarios with
>> either both motors running off of one controller or each motor off of
>> separate controllers [the controllers will be identical also]
>>
>>
>>
>>check out my blog:
>>
>>http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
>> __________________________________________________
>>Do You Yahoo!?
>>Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.6/617 - Release Date: 1/5/2007
>
>
>
>
> check out my blog:
>
> http://geocities.com/hendersonmotorcycles/blog.html
>  __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
>
> It's really hard to measure the resistance of a motor.  Motors typically
> have less than 1 ohm of resistance, you need a special meter that can
> measure super low resistance.  Even then it's hard to measure, you need to
> rock the shaft back and forth to find the lowest resistance.

Oops, sorry.  Need to edit better.  I meant to say Armature, not motor. 
Please substitute armature for motor above.


-- 
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message.  By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Yes i got the Albright emergency disconnect switch on my dash. Just hit it
and the battery circuit is interrupted. Its pretty neat.



On 06/01/07, Brian M. Sutin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


> By the way does anybody have a big red panic button on the dash?
> Roger

Is there a safe way to run 140V DC to the dash?  I vote no.  A rod
to a breaker behind the firewall, perhaps?

I have purchased a breaker for my car, but I have yet to find a place
to put it where it can be reached by the driver as an emergency stop.
Every good spot seems to be occupied by batteries!

--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D.     Space System Engineering and Optical Design
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Did anyone see the Chevy Volt on GMA this morning?  Concept plug-in
hybrid that boasts 40 EV miles per charge.

I googled this, but does anyone know any other sites? 

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42868


db

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
Sunday, January 7, 2006 
NBC "Today" Show just broadcast a segment from the Detroit Auto Show and 
featured were two PHEV (One Chevy; One Ford) Both capable of traveling 40+ 
miles before ice kicks in giving them 600+ miles between stops at the gas 
station and an overall 55 mpg.  Statement from these reps: "This is a "Plug In" 
society and car buyers want to plug in at home.
I wonder what gave them that idea?  About time they discovered the obvious

Don B. Davidson III
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.elecars.spaces.live.com

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
CE again for the 2nd time this year found itself in the money rounds.We went 
out in the qt.final when my competior had a .001 reaction time and .003 off 
his dial.Tough to beat.I had a fun day, earned a bunch of points,some more 
bucks 
for the war chest,and enlightend more folks about electrics.Any electric can 
bracket race,I encourage more of the nedra folk to do so,there are many more 
people at nhra bracket races then at nedra events so you will get the word 
out.I will however HEADS up RACE this year with my street driven S10 as proded 
by 
some of the folks at nedra.                        Dennis Berube

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
That was last year, surely it should be 2007 ?



--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sunday, January 7, 2006 
> NBC "Today" Show just broadcast a segment from the Detroit Auto 
Show and featured were two PHEV (One Chevy; One Ford) Both capable of 
traveling 40+ miles before ice kicks in giving them 600+ miles 
between stops at the gas station and an overall 55 mpg.  Statement 
from these reps: "This is a "Plug In" society and car buyers want to 
plug in at home.
> I wonder what gave them that idea?  About time they discovered the 
obvious
> 
> Don B. Davidson III
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> www.elecars.spaces.live.com
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
OOPS! Old habits are hard to break! Sunday, January 7, 2007 is what I meant
to say
Don B. Davidson III

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Don" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 07, 2007 9:46 AM
Subject: Re: 2007 Detroit Auto Show & PHEV


>
> That was last year, surely it should be 2007 ?
>
>
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Sunday, January 7, 2006
> > NBC "Today" Show just broadcast a segment from the Detroit Auto
> Show and featured were two PHEV (One Chevy; One Ford) Both capable of
> traveling 40+ miles before ice kicks in giving them 600+ miles
> between stops at the gas station and an overall 55 mpg.  Statement
> from these reps: "This is a "Plug In" society and car buyers want to
> plug in at home.
> > I wonder what gave them that idea?  About time they discovered the
> obvious
> >
> > Don B. Davidson III
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > www.elecars.spaces.live.com
> >
>
>
>

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
http://media.gm.com/servlet/GatewayServlet?target=http://image.emerald.gm.com/gmnews/viewmonthlyreleasedetail.do?domain=74&docid=31656

--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message --- 
To test any DC motor, shunt or series, it is best to make up a small test 
unit.  I made my out of a auto 12 volt volt and amp meter, one of those 12 
volt big 500 amp red flag switches, 10 feet of black and red No. 10 awg 
stranded auto wire,  four each 30 amp alligator clips, a auto 30 amp circuit 
breaker, or you can use a fuse holder with a 30 amp fusetron which is design 
for motor surge, wire terminals to fit the meters and switches.

Got all this from a local auto parts store for about $20.00.  Also pick up 
one of those clear plastic storage boxes with snap on lid which is about a 
shoe box size.

Install the meters and switch in the cover of this box.  Run the red and 
black wire in and out of this box.  The positive going to the fuse or 
circuit breaker, than to the switch, to the amp meter, to the pos side of 
the volt meter and than exit out the other end of the box.

The negative also enters the box and goes to the neg side of the volt meter 
and all exits.

This test box is handy, because when you are done testing, you can coil up 
the leads and store them in the box.

Connection procedure:

Make sure the 12 volt switch is off.

First connect the output leads to the motor terminals.  If a series motor 
than connect the armature in series with the field windings for the motor 
direction you will normally run at.  If a shunt type motor, than parallel 
the field and armature circuit together.

Second, Connect to a 12 volt battery.  It is best to use a 12 volt deep 
cycle if you are going to run the motor for a extended period of time for 
brush break in.

        I have run a motor continuous for 8 hours with this rig for
        brush break in.

Third, Connect a 12 volt charger to the battery and then turn on the 12 
switch.

If you are going to run a extended period, and if the charger cannot keep up 
the ampere being use by the motor, than watch the voltmeter to make sure you 
get to about 10 volts, turn off the switch to see if this is just the 
voltage sag.  If it stays at 10 volts, then let the battery recharge before 
you resume the test.

In a 8 hour run, I was using a deep cycle 12 volt 135 AH battery, which I 
was using to break in a Warp 9.  Running with a battery alone, I had to 
charge it every 20 to 30 minutes.  Using a Schumacher 40 amp Smart charger, 
connected to the battery, I could run this test continuous.

Roland


> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Aaron Quinto <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Saturday, January 6, 2007 6:35:40 PM
> Subject: How to test a motor?
>
> I'm new to EV's, but I really want to build at least one EV to show
> people that it can be done. I was waiting to send this out question
> until I had built my little website about it so that if anyone has
> any questions about the pieces and parts, you could check there.
> Here's the link for the site:
>
> http://www.quintonet.com/qev1/
>
> I'm using that as my "diary" or "weblog" of the build, for anyone
> else that might try to do something like it in the future. One of the
> sections I came up with is "Roadblocks." This is where I'm going to
> list all of the problems I run into and how I either resolved them,
> or got around them. So, at this point, I'm at roadblock # 2, which is
> "Will the motor run?" This is where I need some help from the more
> experienced EV'rs.
>
> The motor I'm using is a separately excited one from a forklift and I
> want to make sure that it will run under battery power before I
> continue to buy a controller. I've tried to make note of everything
> I've done so far on the website, but basically, here's my question to you:
>
> What do I need to do to get a sepex motor running directly from a
> battery? The book I have says that I need to install some type of
> resistance in-line with the windings and the armature, but what do I
> use for the resistance? I thought about maybe just getting a cheap
> headlight and adding that in-line, but then I figured it would
> probably blow because of the current of the motor. I tried wiring the
> two fields in series, but that didn't do anything. What do you guys
> suggest as a means of testing the motor to make sure I can get it to
> actually spin?
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>

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