EV Digest 6287
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: The LONG and SHORT of the Chevy Volt Story
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Controllers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Chevy VOLT
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: chargers
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Controllers
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) $500-million for battery R&D
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EV patent on eBay
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) saft Li-ion batteries
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: $500-million for battery R&D
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: saft Li-ion batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: $500-million for battery R&D
by "Darin - MetroMPG.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: direct drive (basic questions)
by "David Hrivnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: a way to lower aerodynamic drag
by Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) speedometer problem
by Doug Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Contactor Wiring
by "Brian M. Sutin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) PFC charger question
by John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Chevy Volt
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: contacter and circuit breaker
by "Erik Bigelow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) DCP 600 quirk question
by "Erik Bigelow" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Chevy Volt
by "Tim Gamber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
i think GM R&D board had a spare toy motorcycle geared electric motor to use
and so put it in the Volt
After all, it was only required to move itself front of media, not to be a
tire burner...
>From N°2 in the USA, what a shame !
seems to me this car is only beautiful vaporware...but it can become
true...maybe one day.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 09, 2007 8:33 AM
Subject: Re: The LONG and SHORT of the Chevy Volt Story
> PS: Steve you do have a point about the way the lady takes off. It was
more
> painful to watch than paint drying.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steven Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR" <[email protected]>;
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 10:25 PM
> Subject: The LONG and SHORT of the Chevy Volt Story
>
>
> > Many Thanks to Rodric Wilde, and his POST on the GM-Web Cast. It was
> > 18 minutes of pure ...what I have been hoping to hear for 15 years.
> >
> >
http://www.gm.com/company/gm_exp_live/events/naias_2007/index_flash.html?navID=3.0.1.1
> >
> > Too bad I am of near retirement age now... NOW that GM, who we were
> > associated with (through our GMC dealership ) for 45 years...
Finally....
> > ( Maybe....) has seen the LIGHT.
> >
> > There are several other worthy ( but shorter) videos you can all enjoy
by
> > merely typing into google VIDEO.... ( GM VOLT )
> >
> > They are all worth seeing... especially the cut-a-ways of the vehicle
> > architecture, and interviews with designers and engineers, ets...
> >
> > I DO HAVE O N E PROBLEM... however... there is this video clip
of
> > a gal pulling the Chevy VOLT out of a garage, un-plugging it, and
> > driving away down the street AS IF SHE IS IN A NEV WITH dead
> > batteries... and a lot of gear noise too... This is NOT good PR !!!
> > She should have accelerated out of the garage, as if Roderic was driving
> > his Maniac Mazda...!!!!!!!!11
> > --
> > Steven S. Lough, Pres.
> > Seattle EV Association
> > 6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
> > Seattle, WA 98115-7230
> > Day: 206 850-8535
> > Eve: 206 524-1351
> > e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > web: http://www.seattleeva.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.7/619 - Release Date: 1/7/2007
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.7/619 - Release Date: 1/7/2007
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Myers wrote:
1. I've seen some DC series motor controller designs in an article,
and books; Richard Valentine's "DC Motor Control for Electric
Vehicles" 1993; Motor Control Electronics Handbook, 1988).
However, as these are 1990's literature, does anyone know of
anything more current?
Nothing has really changed. Despite the often-claimed "rapid" progress
of technology, the changes have really been very gradual -- evolutionary
rather than revolutionary. No big performance improvements; no big price
reductions.
Compared to 10 years ago: There are lots more microcomputers, but mostly
tweaks of designs that were around 10 years ago (more memory, more
speed, more on-chip peripherals). IGBTs are a little bit better, and so
tending to replace MOSFETs (which are almost unchanged). There is a
larger selection of both, mainly from more packages and more sorting
options. Capacitors are slightly better, with a few more being built
specifically for motor drivers. LEDs are brighter and cheaper, and blue
and white ones are more available. Most other parts have changed so
little that it's hard to tell the difference.
A basic design is also listed in that EV cult favorite, "Build your
own Electric Vehicle" by Bob Brant, 1994). BYOEV mentions checking
Motorola's website for white papers on such designs - has anyone
found such papers there?
Motorola is a cellphone manufacturer today. They have largely gotten out
of the semiconductor business, and sold most of it to ON Semiconductor.
But you can still find some of Motorola's old Application notes on the
web. Quite a few dealt with motor controllers, though most just sketched
out the basics and left out a lot of details.
You may have better luck with the power semiconductor manufacturer's
application notes. I like International Rectifier's, but there is also
IXYS, Powerex, and sometimes the microcontroller makers like Microchip,
Atmel, and TI.
Please understand that Application Notes are primarily SALES TOOLS to
sell parts. They don't present fully worked-out circuits. Often they
just illustrate an idea, and were never built or tested. When they have
been built, it is often just a quickie breadboard that received little
testing. You should expect to have to add more parts and more work to
get a workable circuit from an application note.
1a. Bob Brant's book also mentions how
- Motorola SMARTMOS and SMALLBLOCK intelligent modules
- dsp chips
- fuzzy logic
will lead to better controllers in the future. Any sight of
these in modern EV controllers?
I think these comments were wishful thinking from Motorola's marketing
department. Intelligent power modules are a good idea, and there are a
few on the market. But manufacturers have taken a "let's make it a
custom, proprietary part that locks customers into our design" approach.
Designers have thus found them too expensive, and shunned them for a
"roll you own" approach.
Intelligent power modules will do better when manufacturers decide to
make them simple, inexpensive, and generic. A solid state relay is an
example of this. You can buy them from a dozen manufacturers, they are
all mechanically and electrically interchangeable, and though expensive,
are still cheaper and better than building your own.
Yes, there are some intelligent power modules on the market; but they
have an insignificant market share. Designers have largely decided they
cost too much for the features offered, and so prefer to "roll their own".
Any ideas about where fuzzy logic might help optimize controller
design?
Fuzzy logic is an interesting field. It can solve problems that prove
difficult or intractable for traditional digital solutions. It is quite
useful for things like battery chargers or induction motor controllers
so you don't have to meticulously characterize them and calculate exact
solutions.
Unfortunately, it is not fashionable (at least in the US). The herd
instinct is strong. "Everyone knows" you have to use DSPs, megabytes of
memory, and complex C programs. :-)
2. Any specific links on these types of devices, (or price info)
for an EV controller project wannabe?
The application notes and easy-to-find on-line information will give you
basic information; but no one is likely to post a completely perfected
and fully documented design for free. You'll have to do a lot more
digging for them!.
For more information, look at actual controllers. Reverse-engineer them;
take them apart, trace out the circuits, and figure out how they work.
Sometimes you can find doctoral theses where a student built and tested
some EV controller. I've gotten many good ideas and learned a lot from them.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just read this
_http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/09/detroit-auto-show-bob-lutz-holds-cour
t-with-bloggers/_
(http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/09/detroit-auto-show-bob-lutz-holds-court-with-bloggers/)
I disagree. I have been driving up to 65 miles on one charge using NiMH
batteries in the S-10 and Ranger trucks that weigh 4500 pounds.
40 miles in a 3000 pound car would be a much smaller battery pack. This can
be made now not 2 to 5 years.
Don
In a message dated 1/9/2007 8:18:21 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Some very pointed questions were asked from GM reps by AutoblogGreen
intreviews. First up, Dave Barthmuss, questions by ABG
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/09/detroit-auto-show-autobloggreen-qanda-
with-dave-barthmuss/
The spicy one is with Bob Lutz, questions by various bloggers:
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/09/detroit-auto-show-bob-lutz-holds-court
-with-bloggers/
Pointed questions about previous IP investments in battery technology
.. which he denied.
-kert
On 1/9/07, Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Think about it:
>
> The tremendous successful and shaming-all-US-automakers Prius
> from Toyota was kick-started because of rumors and announcements
> by US law makers and US car manufacturers, so Toyota was afraid
> they would be too late if they did not quickly allocate a good
> team of engineers to develop clean car technology.
>
> GM c.s. succeeded in killing the EV mandate eventually, while
> Toyota successfully rolled out the Hybrid cars....
>
> Today we have a new ZEV mandate by CARB (for California and 10
> other states) also allowing requirements for PZEVs, such as
> Hybrids. US car makers are showing prototypes of cars that
> could become available in 3 to 5 years....
> What would happen if GM did NOT pursue their electric drivetrain?
>
> Yep - Toyota is approximately on par with GM as biggest car maker
> so with a new mistake from GM, Toyota could be the world leader
> in car manufacturing and give all gas guzzler builders their niche.
>
> I have the feeling that GM cannot afford to make the same mistake.
>
> Also I doubt that the CARB mandate will be killed again.
>
> Time will tell, as always. We live in interesting times.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Mike Willmon
> Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 1:50 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Chevy VOLT
>
>
> Cor,
> I followed up my e-mail with the reply below. It just hasn't made it yet.
> I suspect if they don't want to build them they will
> continue with the "batteries are not there yet" excuse; no matter what
their
> poll says. It is public however so this bodes well
> for the message. However I kinda think they can't afford to miss the boat
> this time. But I still don't think they care about an
> oil free or pollution free interest.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mike Willmon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Monday, January 08, 2007 12:07 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: Chevy VOLT
> >
> >
> > I stand corrected, they do show the results.
> > I voted Yes and Yes BTW...weelll I would consider it.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking if you had 120v ac mains and needed to
do a bad boy to charge 60-72volts, you coukd use a 2:1
transformer, probably one of those power converters
(240v to 120v ) would work since they are mass
produced.
If you only have 220v, you'll need a 3:1 or 4:1
transformer, which are not as common, and will cost
you lots more money.
You still need to have another coil for your bad boy,
so you might want to research the availability of
broken/used transformers from large industrial boxes
or welders, even microwave ovens.
Michael Golub
--- Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I have only one design item missing from my future
> EV: the charger.
>
> I plan on using 48 or 72V in 8volt Trojan Floodeds.
> I can live with a
> 'badboy' or 'uglybox' type of home made charger. I
> have 220/10amp to
> hookup to always (no 110volt in Chile and 220/16amp
> are scarse)
>
> What would you recomend? I was hoping I could build
> my own and make
> it at least semi-automatic.
>
> thanks,
>
>
> --
> Eduardo K. |
> http://www.carfun.cl | I'm white and nerdy
> http://e.nn.cl | Weird Al
> |
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a source note to add to Lee's:
Freescale is the Old Motorola SPS sector. It was
branded off by selling stock to become a separate
entity. Things such as the 68000 CPU which was until
recently the heart of Mac's is made by Freescale. They
also make the Chips for Motorola Cell Phones. The make
chips that control ABS controllers for many different
companies. They make micro controllers. On
Semiconductor was I believe the Resistors, Power
transistor, rectifier portions of Motorola. So you may
desire to go to www.freescale.com and look at their
white papers and engineering notes. I believe all the
patents transfered with Freescale. FYI I work for
Freescale and was initially employed by Motorola.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Seth Myers wrote:
> > 1. I've seen some DC series motor controller
> designs in an article,
> > and books; Richard Valentine's "DC Motor
> Control for Electric
> > Vehicles" 1993; Motor Control Electronics
> Handbook, 1988).
> > However, as these are 1990's literature, does
> anyone know of
> > anything more current?
>
> Nothing has really changed. Despite the
> often-claimed "rapid" progress
> of technology, the changes have really been very
> gradual -- evolutionary
> rather than revolutionary. No big performance
> improvements; no big price
> reductions.
>
> Compared to 10 years ago: There are lots more
> microcomputers, but mostly
> tweaks of designs that were around 10 years ago
> (more memory, more
> speed, more on-chip peripherals). IGBTs are a little
> bit better, and so
> tending to replace MOSFETs (which are almost
> unchanged). There is a
> larger selection of both, mainly from more packages
> and more sorting
> options. Capacitors are slightly better, with a few
> more being built
> specifically for motor drivers. LEDs are brighter
> and cheaper, and blue
> and white ones are more available. Most other parts
> have changed so
> little that it's hard to tell the difference.
>
> > A basic design is also listed in that EV cult
> favorite, "Build your
> > own Electric Vehicle" by Bob Brant, 1994). BYOEV
> mentions checking
> > Motorola's website for white papers on such
> designs - has anyone
> > found such papers there?
>
> Motorola is a cellphone manufacturer today. They
> have largely gotten out
> of the semiconductor business, and sold most of it
> to ON Semiconductor.
> But you can still find some of Motorola's old
> Application notes on the
> web. Quite a few dealt with motor controllers,
> though most just sketched
> out the basics and left out a lot of details.
>
> You may have better luck with the power
> semiconductor manufacturer's
> application notes. I like International Rectifier's,
> but there is also
> IXYS, Powerex, and sometimes the microcontroller
> makers like Microchip,
> Atmel, and TI.
>
> Please understand that Application Notes are
> primarily SALES TOOLS to
> sell parts. They don't present fully worked-out
> circuits. Often they
> just illustrate an idea, and were never built or
> tested. When they have
> been built, it is often just a quickie breadboard
> that received little
> testing. You should expect to have to add more parts
> and more work to
> get a workable circuit from an application note.
>
> > 1a. Bob Brant's book also mentions how
> > - Motorola SMARTMOS and SMALLBLOCK intelligent
> modules
> > - dsp chips
> > - fuzzy logic
> > will lead to better controllers in the future.
> Any sight of
> > these in modern EV controllers?
>
> I think these comments were wishful thinking from
> Motorola's marketing
> department. Intelligent power modules are a good
> idea, and there are a
> few on the market. But manufacturers have taken a
> "let's make it a
> custom, proprietary part that locks customers into
> our design" approach.
> Designers have thus found them too expensive, and
> shunned them for a
> "roll you own" approach.
>
> Intelligent power modules will do better when
> manufacturers decide to
> make them simple, inexpensive, and generic. A solid
> state relay is an
> example of this. You can buy them from a dozen
> manufacturers, they are
> all mechanically and electrically interchangeable,
> and though expensive,
> are still cheaper and better than building your own.
>
> Yes, there are some intelligent power modules on the
> market; but they
> have an insignificant market share. Designers have
> largely decided they
> cost too much for the features offered, and so
> prefer to "roll their own".
>
> > Any ideas about where fuzzy logic might help
> optimize controller
> > design?
>
> Fuzzy logic is an interesting field. It can solve
> problems that prove
> difficult or intractable for traditional digital
> solutions. It is quite
> useful for things like battery chargers or induction
> motor controllers
> so you don't have to meticulously characterize them
> and calculate exact
> solutions.
>
> Unfortunately, it is not fashionable (at least in
> the US). The herd
> instinct is strong. "Everyone knows" you have to use
> DSPs, megabytes of
> memory, and complex C programs. :-)
>
> > 2. Any specific links on these types of devices,
> (or price info)
> > for an EV controller project wannabe?
>
> The application notes and easy-to-find on-line
> information will give you
> basic information; but no one is likely to post a
> completely perfected
> and fully documented design for free. You'll have to
> do a lot more
> digging for them!.
>
> For more information, look at actual controllers.
> Reverse-engineer them;
> take them apart, trace out the circuits, and figure
> out how they work.
>
> Sometimes you can find doctoral theses where a
> student built and tested
> some EV controller. I've gotten many good ideas and
> learned a lot from them.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377,
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seen here:
http://www.globeauto.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070109.wcatolive09/GAStory/specialGlobeAuto/home
or tinyURL here:
http://tinyurl.com/yd488z
Jeremy Cato, the Globe and Mail's senior writer for the weekly auto
section is in Detroit for media previews of the North American
International Auto Show and will take reader questions about the
world's most influential auto convention this afternoon.
<SNIP>
Mr. Cato was online earlier today to answer questions about what to
expect from the show. Your questions and Mr. Cato's replies appear at
the bottom of this page.
<SNIP>
Jeremy Cato: ...The most creative idea I saw on the show floor these
past few days came from GM -- the Volt plug-in hybrid. GM's Bob Lutz,
the product god at GM, says his engineers are treating this like a
production platform due to go on sale in 2010. Bob is not a liar, so I
am going to take him at his word on this. The problem is the battery
technology to make it all work needs development. However, Detroit's
auto makers have asked Washington, D.C. for $500-million for battery
research and development.
tks
Lock
Toronto
human-electric hybrid
Previously, back on December 3, from Bruces excellent EVLN:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/81598
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> EVLN(European & American carmakers overslept the hybrid trend)-long
>
http://www.playfuls.com/news_09_1016--Automakers-Bet-On-The-Next-Generation-Of-Hybrid-Vehicles.html
> Automakers Bet On The Next Generation Of Hybrid Vehicles
> 03:08 AM, December 2nd 2006 by News Staff
><SNIP>
> Europe is strengthening its research efforts. The French
> government is to invest 158 million dollars next year in Peugot's
> hybrid diesel research.
> So is the US government, with plans for 96 million dollars for
> research on plug-ins over the next two years, one US department
> of energy official said.
> The Japanese government is spending more than 100 million dollars
> on plug-in research, said Hillebrand.
> By Juergen Baetz, Dpa © 2006 DPA
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
cool i want to make a fake patent and make a quick 10 million bucks!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV patent on eBay
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 22:08:36 -0800
Unless I am mistaken, this item for sale on eBay appears to be a patent for
perpetual motion:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120072860714
_________________________________________________________________
Your opinion matters. Please tell us what you think and be entered into a
draw for a grand prize of $500 or one of 20 $50 cash prizes.
http://www.youthographyinsiders.com/R.aspx?a=116
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
just looked at saft site and just found another good battery option 6 or 7
of the saft vle 10.8 volt 84 AH modules in series would give me a 65 volt or
76 volt 84 amp/h pack. Does anyone know how much this would cost i couldn't
find it on their website.
_________________________________________________________________
Your opinion matters. Please tell us what you think and be entered into a
draw for a grand prize of $500 or one of 20 $50 cash prizes.
http://www.youthographyinsiders.com/R.aspx?a=116
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tesla? T-zero? All they guys here on the list using Lithium (or NiMH for
that matter)? $500,000,000? 2010? Prius? Insight? Huh? Seems as though a lot
of R+D is in progress already....
Seems to me as though this is setting Toyota up (or maybe Honda or Mercedes)
to come out with the same thing in 2007.5 or 2008 (not 2010), without US
government assistance... or am I cynical?
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I talked to them and if your going to order 10,000 or more per year they
will sign you up. Great looking battery though.
Don
In a message dated 1/9/2007 3:27:35 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
just looked at saft site and just found another good battery option 6 or 7
of the saft vle 10.8 volt 84 AH modules in series would give me a 65 volt or
76 volt 84 amp/h pack. Does anyone know how much this would cost i couldn't
find it on their website.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting, Lock. Thanks.
Also interesting, further down in that article is this question
submitted by a reader:
D J from vancouver Canada writes:
> Hi Jeremy,
I want to buy electric! Where and what can I buy now? What
> does the future look like for electric vehicles?
Neat!
His answer: Look at the ZENN car, or wait for battery tech/economics to
mature. (Ironically, he omits the Vancouver-built "IT" NEV, a
competitor to the ZENN.) The writer, a dyed in the wool "traditional"
auto journalist, predicts the world will run on electric cars by the
time he retires if battery issues are resolved.
Darin
---
Lock Hughes wrote:
Seen here:
http://www.globeauto.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070109.wcatolive09/GAStory/specialGlobeAuto/home
or tinyURL here:
http://tinyurl.com/yd488z
auto makers have asked Washington, D.C. for $500-million for battery
research and development.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes there is. You may want to check out this company.
http://www.neugartusa.com/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Suren Balendran
Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 12:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: direct drive (basic questions)
Hi All,
Is it not possibe to design a gear box that sits inbetween the motor
and wheel drive flange that increases the output torque? i am looking to
do somthing similar with two Lynch 200mm motors. Specs can be found
here:
http://www.agnimotors.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id
=5&Itemid=36
I plan to use the motor at 96V. It is more complicated that is true
but just think, one of these motors in each wheel will give more then
enough power and all the space saved in the car can be used to house
batteries...
try this link and look under technology....http://www.eliica.com/
Suren
Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Jonathan,
If putting the power plant in each wheel is such a great idea, why don't
they put gas engines in each wheel? Seems like the logical place to put
it. Electric motors, like ICEs, present difficulties when applied to the
wheel. Many have tried it. You often can see articles where GM or
Mitsubishi has a prototype. But try to find where you can buy such a
motor or motor-wheel package. So, how much work is involved? Plenty. And
it is costly. It is a product everybody would love to have but nobody
can deliver.
Jeff
Jonathan Perret wrote:
I'm curious to understand how much work is involved in
converting an ICE car (VW Beetle for instance) into an electric vehicle
that has the wheeels driven directly by motors on each wheel
rather than via the existing transaxle...
for example how do you mate the motor shaft to the wheel hubs for say
the
front wheels which previously (as an ICE car) weren't driven, just
rolled.
thanks,
Jonathan
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 04:23:20 -0700, you wrote:
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: a way to lower aerodynamic drag
From: Geopilot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, January 08, 2007 11:29 pm
To: [email protected]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED],
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.fraunhofer.de/fhg/EN/press/pi/2006/12/ResearchNews12-2006-Topic4.jsp
> As fast as a shark in water
>
> With the help of tiny ridge-like structures in their scales, sharks
> are able to minimize drag when swimming. A new coating system takes
> advantage of this riblet effect to improve the aerodynamics of
> vehicles and aircraft.
>
> Scales have a beneficial effect on the speed at which fish swim: tiny
> ridges arranged parallel to the swimming direction, known as
> riblets, reduce drag in water. This riblet effect, which has been
> known to scientists and engineers for more than 50 years, can also be
> utilized by ships and other means of transport: Films with a suitable
> structure can be applied to their outer surfaces to reduce frictional
> resistance and thus bring down fuel consumption.
>
> The problem is that these films can only be applied to flat or convex
> surfaces, but bodies whose aerodynamic or hydrodynamic properties
> have been optimized tend to have a more complex shape. The
> alternative to coating with a film is to texture the surface itself
> with riblets. However, none of the laser or milling techniques which
> have been employed so far are suitable for components that have to be
> painted, as the paint would immediately flow into the tiny grooves
> and fill them.
>
> Dr. Volkmar Stenzel of the Fraunhofer Institute for Manufacturing
> Engineering and Applied Materials Research IFAM thus came up with the
> idea of integrating the riblet pattern into the lacquer itself. That
> meant we had to look for a tool which didnt adhere to the lacquer,
> so that it could impress the required structure onto it, explains
> Stenzel. A prototype has now been created, combining a suitable
> lacquer and the technology for applying it. The novelty is that an
> approximately 20 cm wide transparent silicone film with a riblet
> pattern serves as a stamp. This is capable of printing patterns
> with a resolution of a few nanometers, similar to those found in
> holograms, onto surfaces. The film runs over three flexible rollers
> and can thus adapt its shape to hug uneven surfaces. >From the front,
> a new type of resin lacquer is continuously sprayed onto the film and
> transferred with the help of the rollers onto the surface to be
> treated. A UV lamp then hardens the resin in a fraction of a second.
> Because of the extremely fast application and hardening process, the
> riblet structure is retained.
>
> Our trial lacquer is based on the chemistry used in aviation paints.
> It is mechanically very durable and, Stenzel hopes, should also be
> resistant to strong UV radiation at high altitude. A field trial
> will soon show whether the lacquer fulfills its promise in practice.
> However, applications for the new coating system are not restricted
> to the aviation industry, as Stenzel stresses: With this technology
> we can apply any other micro and nano structures to lacquered
> surfaces.
These also sound like vortex generators.
http://www.mitsubishi-motors.com/corporate/about_us/technology/review/e/pdf/2004/16E_03.pdf
They are also used to clean up airflow around the wings of small
airplanes.
http://www.microaero.com/
R. Matt Milliron
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 1999 Solectria Force. It is based on a 1999 Geo Metro.
I just finished replacing the original gearbox because it had been
totally trashed by prior owners. The replacement went well except...
the new stock Solectria Gearbox does not have a fitting for a
mechanical speedometer cable. So I now have to convert to electronic.
So far I seem to have a couple of ideas. I really would like to keep
the speedometer and odometer functions.
One could involve the Brusa AMC325 Controller. According to the
User's manual, pin 22 in the control cable provides a 'mileage
indicator (1 impulse/100m)'. I suspect that there is a way to
utilize this but I haven't the knowledge to figure it out.
I could also possibly use one of those magnetic pickups that attach
to the drive shaft.
Anybody have any other ideas? A contact for somebody who could help
would be great.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've got a seemingly dumb question. I was re-reading the data sheet for
my contactors, Kilovac EV200's, and noticed that the studs are labeled
"+A1" and "-A2". Should I be connecting the "+A1" to the negative battery
pole? I'm not even sure which way the contactors are in at the moment.
The data sheet does not speak to this, except to imply that reverse
polarity is bad.
Brian
Alfa Romeo EV Conversion
http://www/skewray.com/alfa/
--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am getting ready to wire up my traction pack and figured I would test
out my PFC-30 on an old 12 volt SLI battery before wrecking
my traction pack.
I've read the instructions and searched the archives for some info and
found the email I have copied below to which I believe Rich responded,
Correct.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2005 11:08 AM
Subject: PFC20 Charging Questions
My pack setup is 22 - 6 Volt flooded led acid. (Sam's Stowaway)
1. I'm doing an equalizing charge first, do I just turn the voltage
limit
up and monitor the batteries manually until they hit 7.5v per cell?
Unfortunately while experimenting with the charger I turned the voltage
pot a number of time in both directions, so I don't know where in its
range it currently is. Since I am
experimenting with a 12 volt battery can I turn the pot counter
clockwise until it wont turn any more and then turn it one full
rotation in the clockwise direction. Would this qualify as "turning the
voltage limit up"?
Then once I have the voltage pot set somewhere "up" what do I do with
the current knob during this equalization charge?
After I am comfortable with this process on my spare SLI should I
connect my traction pack batteries (6 volt interstate flooded lead
acid) in pairs and follow this same procedure before wiring up to the
full 144 volt pack?
Thanks.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't see why the battery technology matters. They could build the car with
yellowtops. If more suitable battery technology surfaces, then convert. The
range on battery is not critical to the concept. If they seriously wanted to
produce the car they would be taking orders for cars to be delivered in 2009.
Jeff Shanab said:
150mpg on all electric and 50mpg while the ice is running.
Nice concept but, where will Tesla and Phoenix be in ... 10 years??
In my driveway! I hope.
I too am skeptical for a few reasons. One they used the magical 10 year
number; again.
Then they had to try and take credit for starting the green revolution.
I think Lutz's heart is in it this time but the marketing wreaks. When I
see ads announcing it's release in two years all over the place, then
cars on lots and even more advertising and then we can buy them not
lease them. Maybe I will believe. But 10 years is about 8 years to late,
Toyota, for example, doesn't need that much time. It was accepted that
concept to production was 5 years, now the industry says 3 years to
change over a line.
How long would it take them to restart the EV1 with Lithium Ion? < 2
years I am sure.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
Your post raises some questions that I hadn't thought of before. You
mentioned having a contactor on each end of the battery pack to
completely disconnect the pack from the vehicle. As it is now, I have
one contactor between the B+ and controller. The charger I'm going to
install will have GFCI, but is not isolated. The GFCI will be a
generic catchall for shocks from leaks to ground right? In the wet
motor case the GFCI would just obnoxiously trip everytime I reset it
until the motor was dry right? So even without the second contactor to
completely separate the battery pack I'll be safe, but perhaps
annoyed.
As a side note, I'm considering installing a GFCI plug or breaker for
the circuit I plan to do the majority of charging from in my garage.
Is there any trouble with two GFCI circuits in series? Perhaps I'm
being paranoid, but to quote something I read here a long time ago -
what would it take to plug your car in and feel safe plugging it in
standing in the rain? Since my charger isn't isolated, if only the
charger has a GFCI there could still be a leak from the plug to the
body. The charger GFCI could trip, but the plug itself is upstream of
that and someone could get shock by touching it. Paranoid or sensible?
Thanks!
Erik
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2007 21:37:31 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: contacter and circuit breaker
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Tim Gamber wrote:
I was just wondering why some people say you need to have the circuit
breaker in your car on a certain side of the battery pack. Would it
matter? Can i use a circuit breaker on each side of my pack to
disconnect it completly while charging? Also how many contacters do i
need and where in the car?
Technically, you can break a circuit anywhere. It's just that some
locations may be easier, or better than others in certain circumstances.
If the circuit breaker is to be in the front for easy access, it's
convenient to have it break a wire that's already in the front.
If you want to kill power in an electrical box so you can work on it,
the circuit breaker needs to be put in the wires that power that box.
If you have a non-isolated charger, it's best to break both sides of the
pack, so the battery pack is completely isolated from the rest of the
vehicle. Otherwise, leakage paths to ground in (for example) a wet motor
could create a shock hazard.
The number of contactors needed depends on what they need to. If all you
need is on/off, a single contactor may do. If you need to isolate the
pack (see above), you may need two. If you want to electrically reverse
the motor, you need an additional 1 or 2. If you have a contactor
controller that rearranges the batteries in series or parallel groups,
you need more yet.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I've got a DCP Raptor 600 that I got used, and it has a curious
behavior that I was hoping someone could shed some light on. My car
has trouble waking up many mornings, and sometimes after it's daily
nap while sitting while I'm at work. When my car is acting grumpy it
seems like the usable range of the accelerator pedal is shifted, the
first inch doesn't do much, and the second inch of travel it acts
normal. After 3 or 4 minutes of driving it's back to normal, I can peg
the 400 amp meter in 2nd. Before that, 75 amps and 40 mph is all
flooring the pedal gets me.
I know it sounds like a mechanical problem, somehow the linkage
doesn't have a consistent connection and after a few pedal presses it
works itself out. But today I noticed two things: Listening to NPR
today, which has enough quiet time to hear static from the controller,
pressing very lightly on the pedal made static audible on the radio.
If the linkage was shifting around, it shouldn't make any noise when I
barely touch the pedal.
The real kicker came when I noticed the grumpiness melting away. When
I'm limited to 75 amps cruising in 2nd and 120 in 3rd, I spend the
whole time floored. While I was on a straightaway with the pedal
floored in 2nd, I watched the amps rise from 75 to 200 as I had the
pedal floored. After that the car was back to normal. My guess is that
this usually happens while I'm at a stoplight and I don't notice.
Any ideas? Start saving for a Zilla? Honestly this is the only thing
that's keeping my from putting one of the "Electric" emblems from the
EV Tradin Post on my car. Before it warms up the acceleration is
really pokey after 20 mph.
Thanks!
Erik in Austin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes your right with that one, the magic the batteries are 10 years off
statement... I have seen this car on TV all day today and all of the GM
representitives keep claiming its a pure electric car...But wait it has an
ICE in it...what's with that? So much for pure electric, Its a hybrid. No
revolution here i'll stick with a prius or honda insight...
And about the EV1... I emailed GM about it a very long time ago way before
'who killed the electric car' came out and the the spokesperson emailed me
back saying that there was no demand for it. Then i read more about it on
the internet and find out that there were loads of people who wanted one but
GM made it very hard for them to be able to lease them out. Then when the
leases started expiring a group of lobbyist offered GM about 1.2 mill (i
think) for a few cars (can't remember exactly) and GM turned them down and
crushed them instead. From a buisness point of view this doesn't make any
sense... They destroyed there own product instead of selling it to willing
buyers... I hope Chevy is an exception...
From: Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: List EV <[email protected]>
Subject: Chevy Volt
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2007 20:52:44 -0800 (PST)
I don't see why the battery technology matters. They could build the car
with yellowtops. If more suitable battery technology surfaces, then
convert. The range on battery is not critical to the concept. If they
seriously wanted to produce the car they would be taking orders for cars to
be delivered in 2009.
Jeff Shanab said:
150mpg on all electric and 50mpg while the ice is running.
Nice concept but, where will Tesla and Phoenix be in ... 10 years??
In my driveway! I hope.
I too am skeptical for a few reasons. One they used the magical 10 year
number; again.
Then they had to try and take credit for starting the green revolution.
I think Lutz's heart is in it this time but the marketing wreaks. When I
see ads announcing it's release in two years all over the place, then
cars on lots and even more advertising and then we can buy them not
lease them. Maybe I will believe. But 10 years is about 8 years to late,
Toyota, for example, doesn't need that much time. It was accepted that
concept to production was 5 years, now the industry says 3 years to
change over a line.
How long would it take them to restart the EV1 with Lithium Ion? < 2
years I am sure.
_________________________________________________________________
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