EV Digest 6304
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Stan Ovshinsky
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Garden tractor question or DC/AC yet again
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Stan Ovshinsky
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Stan Ovshinsky
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Left Coast...
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Selecting a DC/DC to Support and E-Meter/Link 10. Additional questions
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Stan Ovshinsky
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Selecting a DC/DC to Support and E-Meter/Link 10. Additional questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Age Old AC vs DC
by "Matthew Drobnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV costs, production, Re: Conversion costs never change?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: BBS?
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Selecting a DC/DC to Support and E-Meter/Link 10. Additional questions
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) more EVs
by Sharon G Alexander <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: PWM Module for fan
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Stan Ovshinsky
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Who will post the 1000th ev on the Photo Album.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Impaled on a Spit
by "Sean Korb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: GVWR limitation for EV conversions in Canada
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Solar Cell prices
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Aviation batteries
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Stan Ovshinsky
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Trijan AGMs
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Batteries from Johnson Controls any good
by "Marty Escarcega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Up and running again
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by Jurgen Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Age Old AC vs DC
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: EV costs, production, Re: Conversion costs never change?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: EV costs, production, Re: Conversion costs never change?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Roger
I believe Stan is still alive. His wife though did recently pass away.
Don
In a message dated 1/15/2007 2:55:16 PM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
GWMobile wrote:
> Got the quote below off another list. Someone with access to
> a pc please check this guys name in free patentsonline.com
> and lets see if we can get the date of the earliest nimh patent.
> He apparently is in california. Anyone from the list know him?
> Wonder what he thinks of chevron not letting anyone build car
> size nimh batteries.
>
> Stan Ovshinsky, father of the NiMH battery: (circa 2005, Quoted in the
> > >Orange County Weekly)
Stan Ovshinshky (sp?), is deceased. He and his wife were the
founders/owners of Ovonics, which was sold to GM/Chevron and is now
known as Cobasys.
Ovonics was enforcing/defending its large-format NiMH patents even
before the sale.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might want to check the inverter you are planning on using. As I
recall many of them need to be significantly derated if you use them with
an inductive load (like a motor)
Also, unless we are talking about a tiny go-kart size tractor, it's going
to need a huge inverter to drive the motor, at least something big enough
to power a house, possibly larger.
The modified squarewave inverters (the cheap ones) don't handle inductive
loads very well, so you'd probably have to buy a "true sinewave" inverter.
A 2.4 kw inverter is only good for about 2.5 hp and that's if you DON'T
have to derate it.
Run that 2.5 hp through a hydrostatic transmission and you might have 2hp
left...if you're lucky.
Take a look at the prices for 2400 watt true sinewave inverters. I think
it will be significantly cheaper to buy a series wound motor and
controller and a smaller or cheaper inverter.
For a tractor you can probably ditch the transmission and use a single
speed chain drive.
> Hi all,
>
> I'm wanting to build a garden tractor for various jobs around my place.
> One of it's jobs will be to provide a roving AC power supply, thus
> requiring an inverter. Many of the donors I'm finding have a
> hydrostatic transmission, which would seem to need only a contactor,
> not a controller. In light of these conditions, is there any advantage
> to use AC motors (both traction and implement) rather than DC? It would
> seem that at a minimum, the switching would be a lot easier/cheaper.
> Motors may also be more readily available.
>
> Thanks, Ken
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
> with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stan's wife died in August, 2006.
Stanford R. Ovshinsky (1923- ) is a self-taught Jewish
American-Lithuanian engineer, inventor, and physicist.
He has invented amorphous semiconductor materials,
which gave rise to a whole new segment of material
engineering, aiding in the construction of
semiconductors, solar energy, and electric cars. These
materials are used in photocopy machines, fax machines
and LCD displays.
Ovshinsky was granted numerous patents in the 1970s
and '80s for amorphous semiconductor materials.
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> GWMobile wrote:
>
> > Got the quote below off another list. Someone with
> access to
> > a pc please check this guys name in free
> patentsonline.com
> > and lets see if we can get the date of the
> earliest nimh patent.
> > He apparently is in california. Anyone from the
> list know him?
> > Wonder what he thinks of chevron not letting
> anyone build car
> > size nimh batteries.
> >
> > Stan Ovshinsky, father of the NiMH battery: (circa
> 2005, Quoted in the
> > > >Orange County Weekly)
>
> Stan Ovshinshky (sp?), is deceased. He and his wife
> were the
> founders/owners of Ovonics, which was sold to
> GM/Chevron and is now
> known as Cobasys.
>
> Ovonics was enforcing/defending its large-format
> NiMH patents even
> before the sale.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
He's still listed as president of ovonics so I doubt he's dead.
On 1/15/07, Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
> Got the quote below off another list. Someone with access to
> a pc please check this guys name in free patentsonline.com
> and lets see if we can get the date of the earliest nimh patent.
> He apparently is in california. Anyone from the list know him?
> Wonder what he thinks of chevron not letting anyone build car
> size nimh batteries.
>
> Stan Ovshinsky, father of the NiMH battery: (circa 2005, Quoted in the
> > >Orange County Weekly)
Stan Ovshinshky (sp?), is deceased. He and his wife were the
founders/owners of Ovonics, which was sold to GM/Chevron and is now
known as Cobasys.
Ovonics was enforcing/defending its large-format NiMH patents even
before the sale.
Cheers,
Roger.
--
www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what happened with the lithium batteries? I recall it was with great
fanfare the announcement was made
http://biz.yahoo.com/iw/061011/0171396.html
Jack
Reverend Gadget wrote:
I'm sure some of you have noticed that the Left Coast
Conversions site is down. Things seldom go as smoothy
as planned. We are now Left Coast Electric inc. The
new site should be up in a week or so. We have changed
the name to reflect our broader vision for the
companies future. Our second round of funding is
almost complete at which point we will be producing
controllers and a battery and BMS for NiMH. That will
all be announced on our site. We are back to shopping
for a Lithium ion battery since things at Advanced
Battery did not work out.
Rather than just supplying the DYI and conversion
business we will also be supplying other manufactures
as well. Hence the name change. The new site will be
updated often and will give all the info on our
products and when they will be available.
We are also updating the Reverend Gadget sites and all
of them will be linked together. We are developing
some content to put up on YouTube. I will notify the
list when it is available.
Here are some of the new products that will be
available when the new site is up.
Motor to Bellhousing Adapter Plates
We now have the ability to stamp bellhousing adaters
from 1/4 aluminum plate with 1 inch offset. They will
be available two ways: one is a blank that is
predrilled for your motor but otherwise just a
rectangle that you cut and drill to suit your
application. The other is a complete adapter, with all
cutting and drilling done for you.
Clutchless Transmission Adapters
For this all you have to do is send us your old clutch
disc. The hub is removed from the disc and is fitted
to a special clamp on adapter with a keyway to match
your motor.
Flywheel Modification
Send in your old flywheel and we will insert a hub
with a taperlock bushing to fit your motor. We also
can remove the ring gear and lighten it. The flywheel
is then balanced and sent back to you.
Battery Cables
You will be able to order your cables already
assembled with Vutron cable. The cable is orange to
comply with current DOT regs on high voltage cables.
we crimp the fitting on with a conductive grease and
shrink red or black color coded tubing over the joint.
They are then tested for resistance and load tested
and checked for tempurature rise.
These are just a few of the things we are working on.
The new products will be up on the website with
pictures when it is up and running. 2007 will be a
great year for electric cars.
Gadget
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> If he will be using an ISOLATED charger, then high isolation in the
> DC/DC is not necessary. Just about any small isolated DC/DC will do.
>
I'm not sure where I fit in this model, but I think I'm safe. My traction pack
charger is not
isolated, but I do have an isolated trickle charger that tops off the accesory
battery whenever
the car is plugged in. I'm building a simple dc-dc solution based on Vicor
bricks, and I believe
they are isolated too. I have my eMeter hooked directly to the accessory
battery for power and I'm
using a prescaler to hook the eMeter to the traction pack. So far so good, but
I don't want to
push my luck.
But I have a questions about this configuration. Does a prescaler provide any
isolation? Are there
different ways to build a prescaler, and some might not provide isolation? If
my dc-dc, the
prescaler and the 12v charger provide isolation, (and the controller is the
only thing connected
to the traction pack) is there still a high probability of letting the smoke
out of my eMeter?
Thanks
Dave COver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
> He's still listed as president of ovonics so I doubt he's dead.
Yes; as others have pointed out, it is his wife who passed away and I
misremembered the passing as Stan's instead.
Thanks to everyone for the correction.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> I'm not sure where I fit in this model, but I think I'm safe.
NOPE!
> I have my eMeter hooked directly to the accessory battery
> for power and I'm using a prescaler to hook the eMeter to
> the traction pack. So far so good, but I don't want to
> push my luck.
This is the big no-no. The E-Meter internally connects the traction
pack ground to its 12V supply power ground. If you powre the E-Meter
from the 12V battery, you *MUST* provide isolation between the E-Meter
and the 12V battery.
All that Lee is pointing out is that if you are using an isolated
charger, then the isolator you use between the battery and E-Meter need
not have as high isolation as otherwise since the charger provides the
isolation between the battery and AC line.
The prescaler does not provide any isolation at all.
Your present configuration is introducing a serious ground fault (dead
short) from the traction pack -ve to the vehicle chassis thorugh the
E-Meter.
If you have no DC/DC between the 12V battery and the traction pack, and
use an isolated 12V charger to charge the 12V battery, then you can get
away with one of the inexpensive and readily available 12V<->12V
isolated DC/DCs (such as EV Parts, etc.) sell for use with the E-Meter.
I think that if you use Vicor modules for your DC/DC between the
traction pack and 12V battery, you will be OK continuing to use this
little DC/DC between the 12V battery and E-Meter even with a
non-isolated charger, since the Vicor modules are intended to provide
isolation between the AC line and their output. However, I'll defer to
Lee's opinion in the matter ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or...Not quite.
Here's what I'm looking at...
I'm converting a 2000 Lincoln LS, which has a 5 speed automatic
transmission. I plan on keeping this. I have access to the computer, and
therefore can recalibrate the shift pattern as needed. I know I will be
losing some efficiency, but I'm trying to do this while preserving as much
of the car as possible. The car has a weighs about 3800 LBs (with about 1
gallon of fuel in it).
Here's the at-the-wheels data of the existing engine (this is actually from
a 2002, so it's about 10-20 hp lower):
RPM TQ ICE HP
500 100 9.52 1000 201 38.27 1500 220 62.83 2000 225 85.68 2500 228
108.53 3000 229 130.81 3500 250 166.6 4000 255 194.21 4500 265 227.06
5000 251 238.96 5500 232 242.96 6000 218 249.05 6500 200 247.52
RPM,TQ,HP
500,100,9.52
1000,201,38.27
1500,220,62.83
2000,225,85.68
2500,229,130.81
3000,229,130.81
3500,250,166.6
4000,255,194.21
4500,265,227.06
5000,251,238.96
5500,232,242.96
6000,218,249.05
6500,200,247.52
(Second copy for putting into spreadsheet easily, if the first doesn't come
out.)
Here's the configurations I've been looking at:
$7,350 Warp 11" + 300 V 2K Zilla ( @ 240 V)
$5,450 Warp 11" + 300 V 1K Zilla ( @ 240 V)
$9,800 Azure Dynamics / Solectrica AC90 (@ 312 - 360 V)
2 Azure Dynamics AC55s (@ 312 - 360V) - Price unknown
I've got data on the AC90 and the AC55 in terms of torque / power...The
problem is the only dyno data I can find is from the timeslip of
www.jouleinjected.com but that's for 2 Warp 9"s...So I'm not sure how that
compares.
I've come to the conclusion that comparing HP is useless. The problem is the
electrics (all of them seemingly) peak out way before 5,000 RPMs, therefore
none of them get a good HP number...But, if you compare torque, then they're
great..Except, as you can see, with the ICE it's got pretty good torque from
2000-6000 RPMs. So a 4K RPM usable band. If you compare that to the
electrics..it seems to be from about 500 RPMs to 3000 RPMs...or a 2500 RPM
band, which means it'll be shifted more often.
Soooooo....Which setup would you look at given I want the car to meet or
exceed it's original 0-60 time of 7.2 - 8 seconds...(Seems closer to 7 to
me.)
http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/2000/solo9949.html <
Quick reviews of the car.
http://www.forbes.com/2000/12/05/1205lifestyle.html
I'm looking at some 'advanced technology' batteries -- either the NiMH
batteries that were talked about on this list, those that Reverend Gadget
mentioned in the WKtEC vid, or Altairnano batts (any idea on timeframe for
general public on these?)....
and I want to start the conversion in 3 months.
Thoughts, suggestions, donations? ;-)
-Matt
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing has grabbed my attention over a number of different threads.
The same idea is in this thread too.
Why the 13 inch motor??
A motor converts electrical power into shaft horsepower. Nothing more
or less except for a *slight* difference in efficiency. Large motors
tend to make more torque per amp, but in turn less rpm per volt (and
cost much more.) The racing crowd has enough trouble getting the launch
torque of a single 8 inch ADC at 2000 amps to the ground without broken
parts (something around 350 ft/lb. of torque at 0 rpm.) Unless the EV
is very heavy a 9 inch motor around 150 lb. will handle the power
without overheating (even the 4300 lb. Red Beastie only used a single 9
inch ADC motor.)
I see around $3000 more motor than most EVs will ever need.
Ryan wrote,
My yet to be bought items:
$4900 * 13" WarP
$4850 * Zilla
$1550 * PFC-20 (minimum, PFC40/50+ likely, 75 even..)
$2250 * Odyssey PC680 (30ct) ($5040 for 60, 2 strings @
360V total) ---------
$13,550
Will these prices never be any lower?
Paul "neon" G.
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jan 14, 2007, at 5:50 PM, Brian M. Sutin wrote:
I agree. In fact, I would be happy to create to create a domain and
put
up a forum, which would take a few days at most and cost nothing. On
the
other hand, I suspect that many of the people who read this won't
switch
over, and the only result would be to dilute the community.
This comes up regularly, and the list generally says NO. I belong to a
number of bulletin boards and to two lists. I generally visit the
bulletin boards only once a week, only more if there is a particular
thread I'm following (part of.) They generally get most answers from
only a tiny fraction of the members (so I suspect many others read then
like I do.) If you want me to not answer go bulletin board.
Paul
WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
George Orwell, "1984"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I'm not sure where I fit in this model, but I think I'm safe.
>
> NOPE!
>
Roger, thanks for saving me from letting out the smoke. I thought I might be
safe, but I know what
I don't know. And I'm finding more and more things I don't know every day.
That's why I rely so
heavily on the list. I guess my pack voltage level is low enough that nothing
has fried yet, but
sooner or later I'm going to add more cells, and then I would have found the
smoke point.
I've been looking for a dc-dc to power my eMeter, but didn't know where to
look. This thread has
the info I've been looking for. It will be money well spent.
On the brighter side, my pack finally feels pretty solid. I solved a voltage
leak and the NiCads
are behaving themselves. I'm in the last stages of preparation for getting on
the road. Maybe I'll
be able to drive down to Bob's for the next NEEAA meeting (after BBB?). Maybe.
Thanks again for all the help,
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, just to say hello after a long time away, we have done another EV, sent it
to KC. doing one more in the shop now, and have one more comeing next week.
Seems like its going to be a good year again. 27 so far. Sharon
www.ev-blue.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> I tested one a few years ago. Yes, the HAM does work on DC. However,
> there are some peculiarities.
Thanks, as usual, for the useful information.
Out of curiousity, did you test the HAM or HAMD module (the HAMD lacks
the internal diode bridge of the HAM module and should therefore run
cooler on DC, just in case the power limit you observed is thermal)?
Also, was it the HAM[D] or HI-HAM[D] flavour? (I expect the HI- and
plain versions would exhibit similar characteristics, but you never
know...) From the 600W value you mention (rather than the 675W of the
HI-HAM) it sounds like you tested one of the plain HAM versions.
Thanks,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't thing Stan Ovshinsky is dead. His older brother & wife died. Not
he. His wife was also a Dr. so that might be where the confusion lies.
Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 2:45 PM
Subject: RE: Stan Ovshinsky
> GWMobile wrote:
>
> > Got the quote below off another list. Someone with access to
> > a pc please check this guys name in free patentsonline.com
> > and lets see if we can get the date of the earliest nimh patent.
> > He apparently is in california. Anyone from the list know him?
> > Wonder what he thinks of chevron not letting anyone build car
> > size nimh batteries.
> >
> > Stan Ovshinsky, father of the NiMH battery: (circa 2005, Quoted in the
> > > >Orange County Weekly)
>
> Stan Ovshinshky (sp?), is deceased. He and his wife were the
> founders/owners of Ovonics, which was sold to GM/Chevron and is now
> known as Cobasys.
>
> Ovonics was enforcing/defending its large-format NiMH patents even
> before the sale.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/ 981 only 19 to go to 1000 EV's. Many home
built. Lawrence Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I put the Austin on a rotisserie today. What fun! Unfortunately, some 18
year old gasoline poured out. It was only a pint, but it's so vile
smelling! I suppose I won't have to worry about that sort of thing when I
replace the tank with batteries. I wish I could get 20 6V in there, but I
just don't have the room. I'm liking the Trojan T1275, and I'll have room
for 7 in the back. 3 in the front. I'll probably grab a lightweight gel
cell for the 12V system. Those Trojans are HEAVY! 80lbs apiece. My target
weight is going up a bit... probably 2300lbs when I'm done. I found a 9"
monster MG Midget front disk system that could work. I think I can adapt
leaf springs from a double axle trailer for the back and some subframe
connectors. Hmmmmm... better make that 2400lbs :)
Pic at http://farm1.static.flickr.com/137/358697233_e598eb6331.jpg
More pics: http://www.flickr.com/photos/[EMAIL PROTECTED]/
--
Sean Korb [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.spkorb.org
'65, '68 Mustangs, '68 Cougar, '78 R100/7, '71 Pantera #1382
"The more you drive, the less intelligent you get" --Miller
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers." -P. Picasso
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sections 5.2, 6, 7, and 9 include a 'vehicle modifier', compliance
labelling, record keeping, etc.
What has been *removed* are the exemptions for non-OEM modifiers (ie
modifying your personal vehicle). This was pointed out to me by an engineer
who keeps track of these laws.
For sure you need to have a 70kg weight per seat in the vehicle as a
passenger weight. As for load carrying capacity, it doesn't appear to say
what you need to do exactly.
To be fully legal, you need to be registered as a vehicle OEM, and that
means that a GVWR change needs to be analyzed fully (by an engineer) and a
report filed away in case someone checks, and the CMVSS sticker needs to be
updated with a 'modified by' label. Note that these regulation updates on
labelling and analyzing GVWR's is set up primarily for motorhomes - I read
the act through and that's who they are aimed at.
Now, you can probably get away without any difficulties if you modify things
but if you are in an accident - or even if you are not in an accident - your
insurance coverage may be void. The insurance company is insuring a vehicle
and they are 'trusting' that you haven't messed with it, unless you tell
them. If you mess with it, tell them about it, and they decide to cover you
anyways, then you should be ok. When I talked to my insurance company, the
GVWR needed to be respected according to the CMVSS standard, and it needed
to have the full safety inspection that a kit car or homebuilt car would
have to go through.
Also, make sure you check out section technical publication 305 which
includes electrolyte spillage and battery isolation requirements for EV's.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I remember correctly the blank size for the PV silicon wafers is 6" in dia,
the old standard that CPU's were made from. In 1998 the blanks for the CPU
wafers increased to 10" Dia, a 300% increase in surface area. I was working at
Applied Materials in Austin TX at the time and the change over to the bigger
PVD machines was only about a 20% increase in price.
Why doesn't the PV industry use the larger wafers?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Zener regs use 2 diodes of 6.8V (or one 6.2, one 6.8) to
consume some of the charging current on 12V batteries.
It is not difficult to make regs for 24V, the challenge
may be in the mechanical setup: use 2x 13V zeners or
4x 6.8V and find a way to cool the middle two?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jennifer Herzberg
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 6:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Aviation batteries
Thanks for the info, Eric. I am an EV rookie and balancing is
something I didn't consider and don't have the knowledge to do. Could
you inform me further? When you wrote regs I am assuming you meant a
capacity the car currently has to regulate and balance individual 12
volt battery power.
So what you are telling me is that when I use 24 volt batteries I
should expect some difficulties in getting the batteries to charge
evenly, is this correct?
My main concern is not to do any damage to the equipment in my 93 Geo
Metro Force, because tentative future plans are to get a new battery
bank. But, yes, these batteries are free and I only need 6 to reach 144
volt.
Thanks, Alan Herzberg
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> These are listed as "turbine starter" batteries, and are not really
> suited to EV (deep discharge) usage.
>
> You might get some cycles out of them. If they're free, it might be
> worth it; of course, you have to deal with the weird connector, plus
> balancing, as any regs you have won't work, unless they're 24V.
>
>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Well then we should be able to find the first patents and figure the
expiry date under his name.
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 3:48 pm, Roger Stockton wrote:
GWMobile wrote:
Got the quote below off another list. Someone with access to
a pc please check this guys name in free patentsonline.com
and lets see if we can get the date of the earliest nimh patent.
He apparently is in california. Anyone from the list know him?
Wonder what he thinks of chevron not letting anyone build car
size nimh batteries.
Stan Ovshinsky, father of the NiMH battery: (circa 2005, Quoted in the
> >Orange County Weekly)
Stan Ovshinshky (sp?), is deceased. He and his wife were the
founders/owners of Ovonics, which was sold to GM/Chevron and is now
known as Cobasys.
Ovonics was enforcing/defending its large-format NiMH patents even
before the sale.
Cheers,
Roger.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another question on batteries.
There is no 12 volt flodded deep cycle battery for sale down here. I
asked for Optima Yellow Tops and they are trying to sell me Trojan
27.AGMs. (of course Optimas are NLA. importing them would make them US$300 )
Would that be a usable battery for my intended proyect (72 volts 2000lbs
car?)
thanks.
--
Eduardo K. | Roses are #FF0000
http://www.carfun.cl | Violets are #0000FF
http://e.nn.cl | All my base Are belong to you
http://ev.nn.cl |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone have any comments on the huge 6 volt batteries made by Johnson
Controls? My local Costco is selling them for $61 each. When I am ready,
I'll need 8. I understand I am better off with 6V batteries VS. 8 or 12
volt?
TIA
Marty
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--- Begin Message ---
It turns out the controller was the issue. Fortunately, I saved a lot of parts
from the 4 other EVs, so I was able to debug it and get it working in about 2
1/2 hours this evening. The Festiva now runs - at least in neutral on only 24
V. All the parts are still all over the place. I now need to re-mount
everything.
I ended up back where I started 18 months ago. The Festiva with 9" ADC motor
and GE EV-1B controller with bypass running at only 84 V on 7 x 12 AGM Deka
Group 36 batts. It should do my 4 mile round trip to work and back. I don't
know what the performance will be like, but at least it is running.
Side note. What I really wanted was Logisystems to rebuild my Curtis 1221B
to higher voltage / higher current. Talked to them today. The story is they
aren't rebuilding any more of these until their new design is done. They are
only going to use the Curtis shell and bus bars. Everything else will be new.
And of course, the price will be (probably significantly although they didn't
specify) higher. So, don't bother calling until at least the end of March.
They have nothing to sell in terms of a Curtis rebuild, even if you supply the
core. They just aren't rebuilding them any more. And, I was the 5th person to
ask for a waiting list, and they aren't making one of those either.
Anyone else a Curtis expert want to take a crack at fixing / rebuilding my
1221B? Contact me off list. I'd really like to get that EV-1 out of there and
up the voltage to 144, where it needs to be. 144 V / 600 A min is what I
"need" to get me to swap out the EV-1. I just can't get any range with only 7
batts at 84 V, and 14 batts is too many to fit in the car ... 12 x 12 is what
I need in terms of weight and power.
Steve
---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
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--- Begin Message ---
I have a portable generator (Dewalt 4300, puts out 15A at 240V) that I
would like to use as an emergency extender/backup for my pickup EV I'm
designing. Ideally, I would just load the generator in the bed and plug
in the on-board charger, when needed.
Questions: Can a typical EV be charged while it is driving? Does this
require a special charger, or any modifications to the circuitry?
I realize this will not be a true hybrid, or plug-in hybrid, I just want
to be able to extend the range a little when necessary.
Thanks,
Jurgen Schmidt
San Antonio, TX
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your data seems a bit off for both AC and DC.
I'm pretty sure the AC setup can go up to 10,000 rpm. Possibly even
higher, but I'm sure it can do at least 10,000.
The DC setup:
With a series wound DC motor, torque is maximum at zero RPM. Using a 240V
pack, it should have good torque up to 5,000 rpm. 5,000 is the safe
limit, it can spin faster, but it might go into self-disassembly mode.
Torque will be flat from zero RPM until the controller comes out of
current limit. The 2K will have more torque at low RPMs, but come out of
current limit sooner and torque will drop until it matches the torque from
the 1K which should be about the same point the 1K comes out of current
limit. After that torque will drop off at the same rate for both
controllers until you hit the RPM limit.
Quick leasson on series wound motors. Torque is related to current, more
current = more torque. At a given RPM, current is related to input
voltage, more voltage = more current = more torque.
Motors (pretty much all motors) produce something called Back EMF,
basically the motor is operating as a generator at the same time as it
works as a motor. THe back emf opposes the applied voltage and reduces
current flow. At higher RPMS you get more Back EMF and less current flow
for a given voltage.
At very low RPMS the motor produces very little back EMF and will draw
HUGE amounts of torque. Because of this the controller needs to limit
current to a safe level to avoid buring out it's transistors.
At low RPMS the controller (effectively) limits the output voltage to the
motor to keep current at or below it's maximum current limit. The
controller comes out of current limit when the input voltage into the
controller equals the output voltage to the motor (i.e. 100% duty cycle),
at RPMS above this point the current will drop off because there isn't
enough voltage to push any more current.
The higher the voltage you use, the higher the RPM before the controller
comes out of current limit. Like I said earlier, torque is flat until you
hit current limit.
Back to your questions:
With a car that heavy, and your performance goals, I think the 2k is the
only way to go
I'm not sure what the points are where the controllers will come out of
current limit, Otmar can probably tell you.
Though, if you can reprogram the tranny, I might be inclined to set the
shift points at about 4500-5000 rpm and see how it works. Set the low rpm
points for whatever feels right.
Unless you can afford Li=Ion batteries, your range is going to suck, so
you might as well make it perform well. Of course driving it for
performance is going to cut your range even more, but it aught to turn
heads for the first 10 miles...maybe.
> Or...Not quite.
>
> Here's what I'm looking at...
>
> I'm converting a 2000 Lincoln LS, which has a 5 speed automatic
> transmission. I plan on keeping this. I have access to the computer, and
> therefore can recalibrate the shift pattern as needed. I know I will be
> losing some efficiency, but I'm trying to do this while preserving as much
> of the car as possible. The car has a weighs about 3800 LBs (with about 1
> gallon of fuel in it).
>
> Here's the at-the-wheels data of the existing engine (this is actually
> from
> a 2002, so it's about 10-20 hp lower):
>
> RPM TQ ICE HP
> 500 100 9.52 1000 201 38.27 1500 220 62.83 2000 225 85.68 2500 228
> 108.53 3000 229 130.81 3500 250 166.6 4000 255 194.21 4500 265 227.06
> 5000 251 238.96 5500 232 242.96 6000 218 249.05 6500 200 247.52
>
> RPM,TQ,HP
> 500,100,9.52
> 1000,201,38.27
> 1500,220,62.83
> 2000,225,85.68
> 2500,229,130.81
> 3000,229,130.81
> 3500,250,166.6
> 4000,255,194.21
> 4500,265,227.06
> 5000,251,238.96
> 5500,232,242.96
> 6000,218,249.05
> 6500,200,247.52
>
> (Second copy for putting into spreadsheet easily, if the first doesn't
> come
> out.)
>
> Here's the configurations I've been looking at:
>
> $7,350 Warp 11" + 300 V 2K Zilla ( @ 240 V)
> $5,450 Warp 11" + 300 V 1K Zilla ( @ 240 V)
> $9,800 Azure Dynamics / Solectrica AC90 (@ 312 - 360 V)
> 2 Azure Dynamics AC55s (@ 312 - 360V) - Price unknown
>
> I've got data on the AC90 and the AC55 in terms of torque / power...The
> problem is the only dyno data I can find is from the timeslip of
> www.jouleinjected.com but that's for 2 Warp 9"s...So I'm not sure how that
> compares.
>
> I've come to the conclusion that comparing HP is useless. The problem is
> the
> electrics (all of them seemingly) peak out way before 5,000 RPMs,
> therefore
> none of them get a good HP number...But, if you compare torque, then
> they're
> great..Except, as you can see, with the ICE it's got pretty good torque
> from
> 2000-6000 RPMs. So a 4K RPM usable band. If you compare that to the
> electrics..it seems to be from about 500 RPMs to 3000 RPMs...or a 2500 RPM
> band, which means it'll be shifted more often.
>
> Soooooo....Which setup would you look at given I want the car to meet or
> exceed it's original 0-60 time of 7.2 - 8 seconds...(Seems closer to 7 to
> me.)
> http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/2000/solo9949.html <
> Quick reviews of the car.
> http://www.forbes.com/2000/12/05/1205lifestyle.html
>
>
> I'm looking at some 'advanced technology' batteries -- either the NiMH
> batteries that were talked about on this list, those that Reverend Gadget
> mentioned in the WKtEC vid, or Altairnano batts (any idea on timeframe for
> general public on these?)....
>
> and I want to start the conversion in 3 months.
>
> Thoughts, suggestions, donations? ;-)
>
> -Matt
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> One thing has grabbed my attention over a number of different threads.
> The same idea is in this thread too.
>
> Why the 13 inch motor??
>
> A motor converts electrical power into shaft horsepower. Nothing more
> or less except for a *slight* difference in efficiency. Large motors
> tend to make more torque per amp, but in turn less rpm per volt (and
> cost much more.)
Hmm, not true. The torque per amp thing is inherent to design, not size.
You can get the same torque-per-amp in a 6.7 inch motor as the 13in, it
just can handle the high current for as long.
The racing crowd has enough trouble getting the launch
> torque of a single 8 inch ADC at 2000 amps to the ground without broken
> parts (something around 350 ft/lb. of torque at 0 rpm.) Unless the EV
> is very heavy a 9 inch motor around 150 lb. will handle the power
> without overheating (even the 4300 lb. Red Beastie only used a single 9
> inch ADC motor.)
>
> I see around $3000 more motor than most EVs will ever need.
Usually the point in using a larger motor is because it can handle more
power for longer periods of time before over heating.
If you are designing a single speed vehicle, or a performance vehicle, or
a heavy vehicle, then the larger motor makes sense.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul wrote:
The racing crowd has enough trouble getting the launch
torque of a single 8 inch ADC at 2000 amps to the ground without broken
parts (something around 350 ft/lb. of torque at 0 rpm.)
Slicks and a trans/drive shaft/differential that won't break.
If it can handle a 1400hp gas motor...
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jurgen,
You cannot charge a battery at the same time you are using it. You cannot
make electricity go both ways at the same time.
Charging is from negative plates of a battery to the positive plates and
discharge to a load is from the positive to the negative of a battery.
A on board generator can be use several ways:
One is to stop the vehicle, disconnect the battery from the load and then
charge it with a smaller generator.
Second, it is possible to charge the batteries, while the vehicle is
coasting down a long hill while the batteries are disconnected from
controller.
This is one of the methods I use with a on board alternator-inverter
that provides 120 VAC 60 HZ at 7KW, that is mechanical rotating by the
coasting force of the EV while the batteries are disconnected from the
controller.
Third, is a very large motor generator, that can provide the power to the
controller and motor and charge the batteries while they are disconnected
from the controller.
My EV call a Transformer I was transported over 600 miles using a 3
phase generator rated at 37.5 KW at 240 VAC Delta 60 HZ. This voltage was
fed into a 900 amp three phase full wave bridge that had a output of 280
volts at about 300 amps per phase.
The AC output was control by a Size 4 Magnetic 3 pole magnetic
contactor and the DC side was control by four CableForm 600 amp DC
contactors. Two contactors are use to disconnect from the generator and two
contactors (call safety contactors) are use to disconnect the batteries from
controller.
There is also another 2 pole 50 amp contactor to disconnect the
regular on board charger from this circuit.
The motor generator was in a stream line trailer that was pull with the EV.
It use a 8 wire aircraft power cable and 300 amp plug made my Power Anderson
that is 4/0 4 wire and four No. 10 awg control wires that is about 2.5 inch
in diameter.
So the only thing you can do with your 20 amp 120 generator, is to charge
the batteries while the batteries are not under load.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jurgen Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:19 PM
Subject: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
> I have a portable generator (Dewalt 4300, puts out 15A at 240V) that I
> would like to use as an emergency extender/backup for my pickup EV I'm
> designing. Ideally, I would just load the generator in the bed and plug
> in the on-board charger, when needed.
>
> Questions: Can a typical EV be charged while it is driving? Does this
> require a special charger, or any modifications to the circuitry?
>
> I realize this will not be a true hybrid, or plug-in hybrid, I just want
> to be able to extend the range a little when necessary.
>
> Thanks,
> Jurgen Schmidt
> San Antonio, TX
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
