EV Digest 6305
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Batteries from Johnson Controls any good
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Age Old AC vs DC
by "Matthew Drobnak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: BBS?
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Battery Beach Burnout Attendees
by "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Batteries from Johnson Controls any good
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: BBS?
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) KillaCycle on the cover "RC Driver Magazine" March 2007
by Bill Dube <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Todd PC40
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Up and running again
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BBS?
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: BBS?
by Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: BBS?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by Jurgen Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The rule I've noticed about batteries is, If you find a battery that seems
perfect or too good to be true, it is. I would suggest checking to make
sure these are deep cycle batteries and check the Ah capacity. If you would
like to compare to other available batteries, I would recommend looking
through the list I've compiled.
Google viewer (latest updates):
http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=p5Q1FF4gnxsiKy0y_uGEbIA
HTML page (updated randomly): http://bmk789.dyndns.org/batteries.html
Good luck,
Brandon
On 1/15/07, Marty Escarcega <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Anyone have any comments on the huge 6 volt batteries made by Johnson
Controls? My local Costco is selling them for $61 each. When I am ready,
I'll need 8. I understand I am better off with 6V batteries VS. 8 or 12
volt?
TIA
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, as I said, I have a complete lack of data on DC. Thanks for the quick
rundown, I had an idea of what you wrote, but nothing in numbers to make it
easily visible, if you know what I mean. I like graphs. :-)
The AC - yes. The AC55 will go up to 7k RPMs at which point the TQ is half
of that at 5k RPMs. The AC55 max is around 5k RPMs. These are the numbers
Azure Dynamics give.
The 55s are 200 LBs each, the 90 is 415 LBs! These are big suckers. With the
right controller, I can see them doing MUCH more. I priced the AC90 with the
-645 controller..the middle ground. The next one, the -845 (I think) makes
it go from 479 ft*lb at 500 RPMs to 589 ft*lb!
If I had some more data on the 11" DC, I'd have more to go on which I should
actually do. I like the idea of regen. But I like quick acceleration too :-)
I had a 2003 Mustang Cobra - that thing was fast - 4 - 5 second
0-60...Ah...anyway. Practicality won over on me, and I couldn't justify
spending mucho $$$ on gas and the resulting emissions (though mine was
completely stock, and therefore while not the greatest, I was quite
emissions compliant)...
I digress.
Back to data.
Average TQ over powerband (all of data, not just "useful part")
ICE: 221.08
AC90: 193.09
2 AC55: 188
2 9" 2k: 327.5
1 11" 1k: 195.2 <-- From 72V #s * 5 - I think it's off a bit
1 11" 2k: 292.8 ^^^ See above - 1.5 * above #s
Thus, the 2 9" wins...but that's at 300V and 2k A...Which is a lot! I don't
think I want to do dual motors (hence why I'm thinking of shying away from
the dual AC55s), so next comes in the 2k 11" from my crazy data, then 1k
11", then AC 90, and finally the AC55s.
I have this in OpenOffice, I'll throw it up on my server for download in
Excel format..
http://www.drobnak.com/ev/tq-compare.xls
(It's 10:16 PM EST now, give me about 10 mins.)
-Matt
On 1/15/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Your data seems a bit off for both AC and DC.
I'm pretty sure the AC setup can go up to 10,000 rpm. Possibly even
higher, but I'm sure it can do at least 10,000.
The DC setup:
With a series wound DC motor, torque is maximum at zero RPM. Using a 240V
pack, it should have good torque up to 5,000 rpm. 5,000 is the safe
limit, it can spin faster, but it might go into self-disassembly mode.
Torque will be flat from zero RPM until the controller comes out of
current limit. The 2K will have more torque at low RPMs, but come out of
current limit sooner and torque will drop until it matches the torque from
the 1K which should be about the same point the 1K comes out of current
limit. After that torque will drop off at the same rate for both
controllers until you hit the RPM limit.
Quick leasson on series wound motors. Torque is related to current, more
current = more torque. At a given RPM, current is related to input
voltage, more voltage = more current = more torque.
Motors (pretty much all motors) produce something called Back EMF,
basically the motor is operating as a generator at the same time as it
works as a motor. THe back emf opposes the applied voltage and reduces
current flow. At higher RPMS you get more Back EMF and less current flow
for a given voltage.
At very low RPMS the motor produces very little back EMF and will draw
HUGE amounts of torque. Because of this the controller needs to limit
current to a safe level to avoid buring out it's transistors.
At low RPMS the controller (effectively) limits the output voltage to the
motor to keep current at or below it's maximum current limit. The
controller comes out of current limit when the input voltage into the
controller equals the output voltage to the motor (i.e. 100% duty cycle),
at RPMS above this point the current will drop off because there isn't
enough voltage to push any more current.
The higher the voltage you use, the higher the RPM before the controller
comes out of current limit. Like I said earlier, torque is flat until you
hit current limit.
Back to your questions:
With a car that heavy, and your performance goals, I think the 2k is the
only way to go
I'm not sure what the points are where the controllers will come out of
current limit, Otmar can probably tell you.
Though, if you can reprogram the tranny, I might be inclined to set the
shift points at about 4500-5000 rpm and see how it works. Set the low rpm
points for whatever feels right.
Unless you can afford Li=Ion batteries, your range is going to suck, so
you might as well make it perform well. Of course driving it for
performance is going to cut your range even more, but it aught to turn
heads for the first 10 miles...maybe.
> Or...Not quite.
>
> Here's what I'm looking at...
>
> I'm converting a 2000 Lincoln LS, which has a 5 speed automatic
> transmission. I plan on keeping this. I have access to the computer, and
> therefore can recalibrate the shift pattern as needed. I know I will be
> losing some efficiency, but I'm trying to do this while preserving as
much
> of the car as possible. The car has a weighs about 3800 LBs (with about
1
> gallon of fuel in it).
>
> Here's the at-the-wheels data of the existing engine (this is actually
> from
> a 2002, so it's about 10-20 hp lower):
>
> RPM TQ ICE HP
> 500 100 9.52 1000 201 38.27 1500 220 62.83 2000 225 85.68 2500 228
> 108.53 3000 229 130.81 3500 250 166.6 4000 255 194.21 4500 265
227.06
> 5000 251 238.96 5500 232 242.96 6000 218 249.05 6500 200 247.52
>
> RPM,TQ,HP
> 500,100,9.52
> 1000,201,38.27
> 1500,220,62.83
> 2000,225,85.68
> 2500,229,130.81
> 3000,229,130.81
> 3500,250,166.6
> 4000,255,194.21
> 4500,265,227.06
> 5000,251,238.96
> 5500,232,242.96
> 6000,218,249.05
> 6500,200,247.52
>
> (Second copy for putting into spreadsheet easily, if the first doesn't
> come
> out.)
>
> Here's the configurations I've been looking at:
>
> $7,350 Warp 11" + 300 V 2K Zilla ( @ 240 V)
> $5,450 Warp 11" + 300 V 1K Zilla ( @ 240 V)
> $9,800 Azure Dynamics / Solectrica AC90 (@ 312 - 360 V)
> 2 Azure Dynamics AC55s (@ 312 - 360V) - Price unknown
>
> I've got data on the AC90 and the AC55 in terms of torque / power...The
> problem is the only dyno data I can find is from the timeslip of
> www.jouleinjected.com but that's for 2 Warp 9"s...So I'm not sure how
that
> compares.
>
> I've come to the conclusion that comparing HP is useless. The problem is
> the
> electrics (all of them seemingly) peak out way before 5,000 RPMs,
> therefore
> none of them get a good HP number...But, if you compare torque, then
> they're
> great..Except, as you can see, with the ICE it's got pretty good torque
> from
> 2000-6000 RPMs. So a 4K RPM usable band. If you compare that to the
> electrics..it seems to be from about 500 RPMs to 3000 RPMs...or a 2500
RPM
> band, which means it'll be shifted more often.
>
> Soooooo....Which setup would you look at given I want the car to meet or
> exceed it's original 0-60 time of 7.2 - 8 seconds...(Seems closer to 7
to
> me.)
> http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/2000/solo9949.html <
> Quick reviews of the car.
> http://www.forbes.com/2000/12/05/1205lifestyle.html
>
>
> I'm looking at some 'advanced technology' batteries -- either the NiMH
> batteries that were talked about on this list, those that Reverend
Gadget
> mentioned in the WKtEC vid, or Altairnano batts (any idea on timeframe
for
> general public on these?)....
>
> and I want to start the conversion in 3 months.
>
> Thoughts, suggestions, donations? ;-)
>
> -Matt
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You guys do what you want but a lot of us like email lists because you
can get them on almost any modern device phone blackberry palm etc
anywhere you happen to be.
You can't do that with bbs's. Its you and your hulking computer in a
dark room somewhere.
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 3:48 pm, David Hrivnak wrote:
As a possibility of BBS look at www.chevyavalanchefanclub.com. It is
normally updated within a minute of the post, much faster than this
list, it is well organized and easy to add topics.
They have a current topics list on the front page that shows the most
active discussions and then you can jump to the forums that are easy to
search. I would love it if there were a similar EV on line club. I am
willing to try and find more if you want. It is the best such
discussion site I have ever seen. Check it out.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John G. Lussmyer
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:28 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: BBS?
At 05:50 PM 1/14/2007, Brian M. Sutin wrote:
> This listserv really should be changed over to a BBS. I think I'm
gonna
> opt out given the volume to topic ratio without any way to
categorize
> the topics.
I agree. In fact, I would be happy to create to create a domain and
put
up a forum, which would take a few days at most and cost nothing. On
the
other hand, I suspect that many of the people who read this won't
switch
over, and the only result would be to dilute the community. Unless the
You got it.
Lets see, I can have an Email list that comes to me as it happens,
OR a web forum that is slow, requires me to explicitly check things,
and will end up cluttered with lots of cute icons.
Which do you think I (and many others) would prefer?
Hint: Time is Precious
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily images about hurricanes, globalwarming
and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake images.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK. I'll be departing in just under 9 days.
Bringing the Piranha and the scooter for scootercross - name still under wraps
Who else is going?
I'm sure the entire Florida area of EVers.
Looking forward to seeing Cliff's Electric Imp
See you there!
Darin
BadFishRacing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2007-01-15 at 19:55 -0700, Roland Wiench wrote:
> Hello Jurgen,
>
> You cannot charge a battery at the same time you are using it. You cannot
> make electricity go both ways at the same time.
Whaaa? Why? What does a normal automotive alternator do? The
alternator charges, the headlights (etc.) discharge. This setup works
well because the voltage is regulated at around 14.4V, so the battery
won't overcharge. The batteries in this case would act as an extension
of the controller's bus capacitors, in the situation where the generator
puts out the same power that the car needs to move.
So Jurgen, for this setup to work, the charger should try to put out a
constant voltage and simply reduce that voltage to keep the power within
the generator's limit if necessary. I think Rich Rudman's PFC series
can do this. They will keep your generator's electrical section cooler
as well (as opposed to a non-PFC charger), because less current has to
flow in order to produce the same power - I can detail this more if
necessary. PFC = Power Factor Correction.
Your charger shouldn't really need to start going until you've driven a
few miles, but if the voltage is well-regulated at 14V maximum each
battery, then there shouldn't be a problem. I would suggest trying to
maintain a 70-80% charge while driving in order to reduce gassing. Just
try to copy what the ICE vehicles do, except reduce your voltage just a
tad since you have the capacity to make a lot more hydrogen gas. Do
make sure there is a venting system running at all times, especially in
this case. By my definition, you'll certainly have a plug-in hybrid
when you're done. The gas mileage may not be so hot though.
- Arthur
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jurgen Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:19 PM
> Subject: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
>
>
> > I have a portable generator (Dewalt 4300, puts out 15A at 240V) that I
> > would like to use as an emergency extender/backup for my pickup EV I'm
> > designing. Ideally, I would just load the generator in the bed and plug
> > in the on-board charger, when needed.
> >
> > Questions: Can a typical EV be charged while it is driving? Does this
> > require a special charger, or any modifications to the circuitry?
> >
> > I realize this will not be a true hybrid, or plug-in hybrid, I just want
> > to be able to extend the range a little when necessary.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Jurgen Schmidt
> > San Antonio, TX
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I run Johnson Control Group 31 12 volt batteries in my EV. Granted these are
"blems" that I pickup at a big discount (40 bucks a piece)(Buget Battery,
Tacoma,WA). I didn't want my first pack to be expensive in case I murdered
them. I can tell you that I have had no problems to speak of. From my year
and half experience with these batteries I would say Johnson Controls makes
a good battery. I would buy them again. But I would try to do a check on the
date code for when the battery was made if possible. Oh, I would stick with
the 6 volt if I had a choice.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/915
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
"THE Stone Age did not end for lack of stone, and the Oil Age will end long
before the world runs out of oil."
Quotation is from Sheikh Zaki Yamani, a Saudi Arabian who served as his
country's oil minister three decades ago.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marty Escarcega" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 5:42 PM
Subject: Batteries from Johnson Controls any good
Anyone have any comments on the huge 6 volt batteries made by Johnson
Controls? My local Costco is selling them for $61 each. When I am ready,
I'll need 8. I understand I am better off with 6V batteries VS. 8 or 12
volt?
TIA
Marty
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2007-01-15 at 19:38 -0800, GWMobile wrote:
> You guys do what you want but a lot of us like email lists because you
> can get them on almost any modern device phone blackberry palm etc
> anywhere you happen to be.
>
> You can't do that with bbs's. Its you and your hulking computer in a
> dark room somewhere.
Actually, the enormous traffic on this list is one of the reasons I'm
forced to use a webmail client on my Nokia 770 web tablet -- it does
have an IMAP email client, which dies a horrible death when subjected to
the quantity of email I receive from the EVDL.
No matter what your opinion on mailing list vs. web forum, there is no
denying that a mailing list is by far a less efficient means to
disseminate information, when that information is not universally of
interest to everyone. This inefficiency isn't important for smaller
discussions, but for something the size of today's EVDL, it impacts
performance. Having to wait more than half an hour to get a post back
from the list isn't just irritating, it tells you how much bandwidth the
EVDL server is wasting all day every day, pushing messages out to folks
who might not be interested in every topic.
And yes indeed, if the EVDL were on a web forum, I'd be able to read it
quite naturally and far more conveniently on my 770, than in its present
form.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rehash of notes from previous observations:
1. Net MPG can be expected to be less than the original engine.
Generators are not nearly as well tuned for efficiency as modern car
engines and there is also charger, battery cycle efficiency, controller,
and motor losses that will apply.
2. Pollution from a gallon (or mile) of a generator with no computer
mixture controls, catalytic converter, EGR, or thermostat is far worse
than any post-70's emission controls vehicle on the road.
3. A generator is generally extremely loud (and often smelly). On one
hand welding on an auto muffer will help, but only some of the noise is
through the exhaust.
4. Be sure to run calculations to understand how much range this will
add. It is often quite a limited gain unless the ratio of driving time
to generator time is low. In fact the weight and volume required for
this system displaces space that could otherwise have been occupied by
batteries and in that sense may actually reduce your range in some
scenarios.
Danny
Jurgen Schmidt wrote:
I have a portable generator (Dewalt 4300, puts out 15A at 240V) that I
would like to use as an emergency extender/backup for my pickup EV I'm
designing. Ideally, I would just load the generator in the bed and
plug in the on-board charger, when needed.
Questions: Can a typical EV be charged while it is driving? Does this
require a special charger, or any modifications to the circuitry?
I realize this will not be a true hybrid, or plug-in hybrid, I just
want to be able to extend the range a little when necessary.
Thanks,
Jurgen Schmidt
San Antonio, TX
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Incorrect- The Alternator provides all the power to an
ICE electrical system. Once the Car is started it will
run without a battery. The Alternator provide a
recharge to the battery while providing power to run
the rest of the Vehicle. The Voltage regulator provide
the switch to recharge the battery and maintain it.
However the battery is only used during the initial
starting of the vehicle or when it is off. So to run a
generator to power the ev it has to be big enough to
power the EV and have enough over head to charge
batteries which are to be disconnected during the
charging.
--- "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-01-15 at 19:55 -0700, Roland Wiench
> wrote:
> > Hello Jurgen,
> >
> > You cannot charge a battery at the same time you
> are using it. You cannot
> > make electricity go both ways at the same time.
>
> Whaaa? Why? What does a normal automotive
> alternator do? The
> alternator charges, the headlights (etc.) discharge.
> This setup works
> well because the voltage is regulated at around
> 14.4V, so the battery
> won't overcharge. The batteries in this case would
> act as an extension
> of the controller's bus capacitors, in the situation
> where the generator
> puts out the same power that the car needs to move.
>
> So Jurgen, for this setup to work, the charger
> should try to put out a
> constant voltage and simply reduce that voltage to
> keep the power within
> the generator's limit if necessary. I think Rich
> Rudman's PFC series
> can do this. They will keep your generator's
> electrical section cooler
> as well (as opposed to a non-PFC charger), because
> less current has to
> flow in order to produce the same power - I can
> detail this more if
> necessary. PFC = Power Factor Correction.
>
> Your charger shouldn't really need to start going
> until you've driven a
> few miles, but if the voltage is well-regulated at
> 14V maximum each
> battery, then there shouldn't be a problem. I would
> suggest trying to
> maintain a 70-80% charge while driving in order to
> reduce gassing. Just
> try to copy what the ICE vehicles do, except reduce
> your voltage just a
> tad since you have the capacity to make a lot more
> hydrogen gas. Do
> make sure there is a venting system running at all
> times, especially in
> this case. By my definition, you'll certainly have
> a plug-in hybrid
> when you're done. The gas mileage may not be so hot
> though.
>
> - Arthur
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jurgen Schmidt"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:19 PM
> > Subject: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
> >
> >
> > > I have a portable generator (Dewalt 4300, puts
> out 15A at 240V) that I
> > > would like to use as an emergency
> extender/backup for my pickup EV I'm
> > > designing. Ideally, I would just load the
> generator in the bed and plug
> > > in the on-board charger, when needed.
> > >
> > > Questions: Can a typical EV be charged while it
> is driving? Does this
> > > require a special charger, or any modifications
> to the circuitry?
> > >
> > > I realize this will not be a true hybrid, or
> plug-in hybrid, I just want
> > > to be able to extend the range a little when
> necessary.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jurgen Schmidt
> > > San Antonio, TX
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
> > You cannot charge a battery at the same time you are using
> > it. You cannot make electricity go both ways at the same time.
>
> Whaaa? Why? What does a normal automotive alternator do? The
> alternator charges, the headlights (etc.) discharge.
While I'm not sure that it makes much practical difference, Roland is
correct if you think about it for a moment.
You are either charging or discharging the battery, never both
simultaneously.
Exactly the same situation as a normal automotive alternator: the
alternator regulates the voltage at a level such that it is *always*
charging the battery while the ICE is spinning (above an idle). The
only time an SLI battery discharges is while cranking the engine over,
or when ICE is not spinning [fast enough] or the alternator has failed.
In an EV range extender scenario, the traction pack will be discharging
whenever the load on it exceeds the present output of the generator; it
will however, discharge at a lower rate than it would otherwise, and
therefore the vehicle may travel a greater distance before the traction
battery is depleted.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The KillaCycle with Scotty Pollacheck is on the cover of the March
issue of RC Driver Magazine!
I haven't seen it yet. :^( I guess it will appear on the web in
about a month.
If you think about it, it is only a matter of scale between the
KillaCycle and an electric RC car. The RC guys are always interested
in the hottest batteries, and A123 Systems M1 cells are the best available.
The present 1/4 mile speed record for an RC model is, ..... drum
roll........ 130 MPH! These guys have something to show us, I'd say.
Bill D.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I am using a Todd PC40. It came with the unassembled 'package' I got, it is at
least 6 years old and to my knowledge has never been used. The specs I could
find say input between 150-190 V, 560 Watts, so I'll have a 3.1 amp draw on my
pack (180vdc). Output can be adjusted with a jumper from 13.2 to 13.8 V, max
amps out at full load (12) is 40 amps. Is this correct?
I looked in the archives for info and found this back and forth about the PC30.
Does any of this apply to the PC40? Should some of the components be changed so
the inrush current doesn't blow FETS?
Seal the entire board? With conformal solution?
Adding the fuses will be done.
Should I change out the parts or was that only for a PC30?
Here is an exchange of emails that I found between Joe and Lee -
Joe Smalley wrote on Mon, 14 Feb 2000-
I would not worry about the capacitors for the long term. The FETs will blow
in the short term well before the caps go in the long term. The FETs
experience 2X peak line voltage on every cycle if the transformer is wound
1:1 like mine. The IRF740s blow pretty reliably at just over 400 Volts. When
the FET avalanches, the failure mode is a dead short. This discharges the
capacitors in short order and will blow the traces right off the board.
Since the FET has now effectively shorted the output of the input rectifier
bridge, if there are traces left on the board, the pack voltage is now fully
capable of blowing the bridge or the remaining traces as well. It is just a
matter of the weakest link blowing. The batteries won't lose and the FET is
already welded. The only thing left is the bridge and the traces and neither
of them will hold up to a shorted battery pack very long.
Joe Smalley
Lee responded
-Dave Luiz wrote:
>> >I have one of these, which I will be running at 192v as well...
>
>The regular Todds have only 200v electrolytic capacitors; they are
>definitely beyond ratings with a 192vdc pack (13v x 16 batteries =
>208v!).
>
>Would you seal the entire PC board?
>
>I would. Virtually all the traces are either high voltage, high current,
>or high impedance.
>
>> Also, I discovered the relay that powers the Todd was stuck on...
>
>This is quite likely, as the Todd PC-30 at least has *no* inrush
>limiter. When you first connect the input, the filter capacitors (over
>1200 uF total) want to charge *instantly*, leading to an inrush current
>spike of 30-100 amps. This, combined with the fact that you are
>switching DC, is BRUTAL on the switch or relay contact.
>--
>Lee A. Hart
Lee wrote again on 14 of Feb 2000
Joe Smalley wrote:
> I would not worry about the capacitors for the long term. The FETs will
> blow in the short term well before the caps go in the long term.
Hmm, a good point. Sounds like the voice of experience! I never blew my
PC-30 but then I never ran it with anything higher than a 132vdc pack.
So, what do we have on the list of improvements?
- conformal coat boards (to survive automotive environment)
- add an input fuse (safety!)
- add an input inrush limiter (so whatever switches the input survives)
For a LOWER voltage pack (120vdc or less)
- turn input side current limit pot down (prevents overheating MOSFETs)
For a HIGHER voltage pack (168vdc or more)
- replace IRF740 MOSFETs with higher voltage rated parts
- replace MUR460 snubbing diodes with higher voltage rated parts
- replace 200vdc filter capacitors with higher voltage rated parts
Anything else I missed?
--
Lee A. Hart
Thanks for the help -
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
> Anyone else a Curtis expert want to take a crack at fixing
> / rebuilding my 1221B? Contact me off list. I'd really like
> to get that EV-1 out of there and up the voltage to 144,
> where it needs to be. 144 V / 600 A min is what I "need" to
> get me to swap out the EV-1.
Just a reality check: the 1221 is rated to 120V and 400A max (IIRC), so
if you need 144V/600A min to swap out the EV-1, perhaps what you really
want to do is sell the 1221? I'm north of the border so it wouldn't
make sense to ship it here and back for repair, but should you want to
sell it, contact me offlist ;^>
FWIW, a friend (whose EV-1 presently lives in my car) "upgraded" his
120V 007 from the EV-1 to a 1221 (not sure if B or C), and this was
definitely a [slight] step down in performance (other than range). For
higher performance than you presently have, you might consider going up
to a 120V or 144V EV-1 setup w/bypass, even if only as an intermediate
step. It might be as straightforward as just swapping out the logic
card (check the voltage rating on the commutation caps; the 84-144V
model uses at least 200V parts).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Jan 2007 at 20:19, Jurgen Schmidt wrote:
> I have a portable generator (Dewalt 4300, puts out 15A at 240V) that I
> would like to use as an emergency extender/backup for my pickup EV I'm
> designing. Ideally, I would just load the generator in the bed and plug
> in the on-board charger, when needed.
>
We get this on the EVDL a couple times a month, usually from EV beginners.
"I have an idea. I'll I use a portable genset as a range extender!"
Yes, you can do it, sort of. Roland Wiench replies "You cannot charge a
battery at the same time you are using it," but that's a misleading
statement.
The key is understanding the battery and genset as a system. If it's
configured correctly, when the vehicle is using more energy than the genset
can provide, it draws down the battery; when it is using less than the
genset can provide, genset energy flows into the battery. You have created
a crude hybrid.
So yes, it may get you a bit more range. But is it practical? Not very.
A Solectria Force, a very efficient conversion, needs about 6-7kW - almost
double your genset's output - just to maintain 45mph. You can bet your
truck will require appreciably more. Even if your genset could put out the
claimed 3600 Watts, which it probably can't and almost certainly not
continuously, it still wouldn't keep up with real-world driving.
The best you can hope for is a few more miles of range; then you'd have to
stop and let the genset catch up. But you probably wouldn't want to hang
around the truck while it did that, thanks to the noise and vibration.
It would also produce gross air pollution, hundreds of times as much as an
ICE would produce. Do you care? And with the typical portable genset
you're unlikely to even approach the fuel efficiency of the ICE. Do you
care?
If the destination isn't within range of your EV, believe me, you're better
off borrowing or renting an ICE.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually you can have a BBS posting come directly to your cell,
blackberry, etc. It is merely a matter of the forums notifications and
email settings. Hulking computer, dark room ... given your using a
blackberry, time to catch up. I drag my laptop into the auto shop class
and share EV stuff all the time with students ... including this list
(but what a pain digging for that one email with that one special link.
Put it in a forum and let the forum's PC do the searching.
All the arguments, with the exception of refusing change for mere
personal preference, have been unfounded and/or trivial. It is "OK" if
you don't want to change ... just think your argument through before
bashing a more efficient idea. I just find it remarkable how some are
so obstinate to change ... yet at the same time think we can save the
world by becoming all electric (other problems will arise, but it is as
close to an acceptable immediate solution for part of our pollution
problem). Given the lack of common technological advancements in web
based communications makes me believe some of you are trying to run EVs
off of D cell batteries.
... by the way, how well does your blackberry (bb) handle long messages,
and graphics? hmmm ... that hulking computer doesn't sound so bad if
you wanna see some high res jpegs, and type on a real keyboard. Not
knocking your bb, but I guess I'm a fan of the Zilla for a reason.
Written from a nimble laptop on the back porch in the far recesses of
dark outdoors in the boondocks of the southern appalachias. Boy that
mint julep was good ... I'd have another one, but it's bed time here on
the east coast.
zzz.
GWMobile wrote:
You guys do what you want but a lot of us like email lists because you
can get them on almost any modern device phone blackberry palm etc
anywhere you happen to be.
You can't do that with bbs's. Its you and your hulking computer in a
dark room somewhere.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Technically, you both are correct, or both wrong depending on how you look
at it.
It IS possible to have a generator connected to the batteries while they
are being used. It is NOT possible to charge and discharge a battery at
the same time.
If the current from the generator is more than the load on the battery,
the surplus will go towards charging the battery. The battery will charge
and the generator will power the load as well as charge the battery.
If the load exceeds the output from the generator, then the battery will
discharge. The battery will provide part of the power for the load, the
generator will provide the rest.
So, yes you can connect a generator will driving, but no you can't charge
and discharge the battery at the same time.
Now does it take a special charger? Maybe.
Some folks have tried this in the past and destroyed their controllers.
I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't advise trying it until you can find out
what went wrong and how to avoid it.
FWIW other folks have done this with no problems.
>> You cannot charge a battery at the same time you are using it. You
>> cannot
>> make electricity go both ways at the same time.
>
> Whaaa? Why? What does a normal automotive alternator do? The
> alternator charges, the headlights (etc.) discharge. This setup works
> well because the voltage is regulated at around 14.4V, so the battery
> won't overcharge. The batteries in this case would act as an extension
> of the controller's bus capacitors, in the situation where the generator
> puts out the same power that the car needs to move.
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If the motor is drawing a higher ampere than the generator can supply, the
generator will go on overload. A alternator is off the line while a starter
with a greater starting current then the alternator. After the starter goes
off the line, then the alternator comes on.
Better test this circuit out, I did and the following are the results:
The battery in a ICE is use only for turning a motor call a starter and to
accessories while the engine is not turning. The alternator comes on line
after the rpm of the engine is up to the excitation of the alternator. The
alternator now provides all the accessory power while the engine is turning
and charges the battery at this time.
If you install three 12 volt meters and three amps meters to monitor a
alternator using one set between the alternator and battery, another set
from the alternator to the accessory load and another set from the battery
to accessories as my EV has, you will see the alternator to battery amp
meter going positive, which means charging.
The alternator to the accessory circuit going negative, meaning the
alternator is providing power to the accessories. While the battery is
being CHARGE! the amp meter from the battery to accessories is 0 amps!! So
the battery is not providing any power while it is being charge.
When the engine idles down below the excitation of the alternator, which is
about 1100 rpm on my alternator, then the alternator is no longer charging
the battery. At this time the battery is not being charge, it will then
provide power to the accessories and the flow of current on the amp meter
between the battery and accessories goes reversed or shows negative.
You cannot make current flow both ways inside a battery exactly at the same
time, that's why!
I also have a 7KW 120 VAC 60 Hz onboard alternator with a maximum output of
50 amps that provides 120 volts to my heating system. I can only charge my
main battery pack with this alternator while the battery pack is
disconnected from the controller any time the battery ampere goes above 50
amps which use a built in charger.
It will trip the 50 amp circuit breaker, if the battery load is greater than
50 amps!
I now have the PFC-50B charger and will have to find out from Rich Rudman if
I can connect the on-board power system to his charger for some type of
REGEN braking.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 8:37 PM
Subject: Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
> On Mon, 2007-01-15 at 19:55 -0700, Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Jurgen,
> >
> > You cannot charge a battery at the same time you are using it. You
> > cannot
> > make electricity go both ways at the same time.
>
> Whaaa? Why? What does a normal automotive alternator do? The
> alternator charges, the headlights (etc.) discharge. This setup works
> well because the voltage is regulated at around 14.4V, so the battery
> won't overcharge. The batteries in this case would act as an extension
> of the controller's bus capacitors, in the situation where the generator
> puts out the same power that the car needs to move.
>
> So Jurgen, for this setup to work, the charger should try to put out a
> constant voltage and simply reduce that voltage to keep the power within
> the generator's limit if necessary. I think Rich Rudman's PFC series
> can do this. They will keep your generator's electrical section cooler
> as well (as opposed to a non-PFC charger), because less current has to
> flow in order to produce the same power - I can detail this more if
> necessary. PFC = Power Factor Correction.
>
> Your charger shouldn't really need to start going until you've driven a
> few miles, but if the voltage is well-regulated at 14V maximum each
> battery, then there shouldn't be a problem. I would suggest trying to
> maintain a 70-80% charge while driving in order to reduce gassing. Just
> try to copy what the ICE vehicles do, except reduce your voltage just a
> tad since you have the capacity to make a lot more hydrogen gas. Do
> make sure there is a venting system running at all times, especially in
> this case. By my definition, you'll certainly have a plug-in hybrid
> when you're done. The gas mileage may not be so hot though.
>
> - Arthur
>
>
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jurgen Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 7:19 PM
> > Subject: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
> >
> >
> > > I have a portable generator (Dewalt 4300, puts out 15A at 240V) that I
> > > would like to use as an emergency extender/backup for my pickup EV I'm
> > > designing. Ideally, I would just load the generator in the bed and
> > > plug
> > > in the on-board charger, when needed.
> > >
> > > Questions: Can a typical EV be charged while it is driving? Does this
> > > require a special charger, or any modifications to the circuitry?
> > >
> > > I realize this will not be a true hybrid, or plug-in hybrid, I just
> > > want
> > > to be able to extend the range a little when necessary.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jurgen Schmidt
> > > San Antonio, TX
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian M. Sutin wrote:
This listserv really should be changed over to a BBS. I think I'm gonna
opt out given the volume to topic ratio without any way to categorize
the topics.
I agree. In fact, I would be happy to create to create a domain and put
up a forum, which would take a few days at most and cost nothing. On the
other hand, I suspect that many of the people who read this won't switch
over, and the only result would be to dilute the community. Unless the
list mavens promised to pull the plug on the list once the forum were in
place, creating a forum isn't really very productive.
As a suggestion, Switch to digest mode. That's only 1-3 emails a day.
Brian
Suggested countless times, never succeeds. The method I prefer is to
receive individual emails and use my MUA (mail client program) to filter
the evdl messages into a separate folder so I can read the ev list as I
have time and more important emails don't get swamped. It's really the
only way if you use your email address for discussion lists as well as
personal communication.
--
Martin K
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The funny thing about all this is; in ten more years, this list will
probably still exist and still be going and most of us will still be
using it. Who's been on here since `91 or close to that?
This list is old school and has a bit of an elite or hardcore feeling
to it. Other things that have a similar feel once you are there and
realize how many others aren't and never will be: IRC, Usenet, MUDs,
Linux, and BBS's back in the pre net days. There's more..(email me if
you know of others)
There are people out there who would find this list interesting and to
be of use. But they don't know it exists.
One of the more truer things ever spoken: "You don't know, what you
don't know".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all for the feedback. I readily admit to being a very new EVer
so will be asking basic questions that I can not readily find answers to
in the archives or EV sites. I appreciate your patience and look forward
to sharing my experiences as I proceed with this project.
I had not thought about the environmental impact of the generator gas
engine - oops, duh! Of course, why am I building an EV in the first place?
Thanks again.
Jurgen Schmidt
--- End Message ---
