EV Digest 6306
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) controller/motor match
by Carl Clifford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: BBS?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: BBS?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: KillaCycle on the cover "RC Driver Magazine" March 2007
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Batteries from Johnson Controls any good
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: BBS?
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Age Old AC vs DC
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: controller/motor match
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Age Old AC vs DC
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BBS?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by "Arthur W. Matteson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Left Coast...
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: BBS?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BBS?and BBB
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BBS?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) "Chrysler questions climate change"
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Volt video
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: "Chrysler questions climate change"
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) WAS :EV costs, NOW:Motor nomenclature
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: BBS?
by Justin Southam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi List,
I have a 48v regen motor from a 2000 Club Car golf cart and a YAMAHA 48 VOLT
G-19 controller. I am converting a motorcycle and would like to pair these but
am wondering if anyone can tell me whether they will match well or I should
wait to find a either a Club Car controller or a Yamaha motor to match the
other.
Thanks
Carl
Denver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:04 PM 1/15/2007, Christopher Robison wrote:
No matter what your opinion on mailing list vs. web forum, there is no
denying that a mailing list is by far a less efficient means to
disseminate information, when that information is not universally of
interest to everyone. This inefficiency isn't important for smaller
I guess it depends on your definition of efficiency.
Email - I scan through the titles, reading some, skipping others,
replying as I want to. I don't have to do any extra work to see the
msgs, they are all sitting in my EVDL box in chronological order,
whenever I look. If my net connection drops for a while, so
what. The msgs are likely already downloaded and waiting to be read.
WEB - I click on the link, log on, look at a list of topics, click on
a topic, wait for a a huge graphics intensive page to download, scan
the msgs, click to go back to list of topics, click on topic, wait, etc...
If my link is down, I can't read anything. Also note that unless you
have active moderators you end up with lots of msgs in mis-labeled
topics - just like email!
I've tried several web forum systems. blech. I have better things
to do with my time. I read the EVDL from 3 different computers right
now just fine, one of those has a very slow link and a web system
would be unuseable.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The funny thing about all this is; in ten more years, this list will
> probably still exist and still be going and most of us will still be
> using it. Who's been on here since `91 or close to that?
>
Can't remember, but before e-groups and CREST and the other archives
were used. Maybe Bruce P can give us all a history review...
I read from the Yahoo archive group and have email from the listproc
turned off -- the ads don't even register with me anymore.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's amazing you made it onto the cover(I'd never have guessed or
dreamed) and a good avenue for exposure. What are your plans with the
bike for this year? Are you going to run that motor setup for
infinity or change it up a bit?
Let me know when that mag hits the shelves so I can check it out(I
have to make a special trip and drive way out far to have access to
these specialty type magazines).
The RC people I've met before, I've tried to interest them in taking
their electric car hobby to the next level and build a road going
electric. Their response and expression is always
amusing(confused/don't know what to say). I don't know what their
deal is or why they don't find the idea more interesting or appealing.
It's almost like those little cars they've been playing with since
they were kids are "normal" and "accepted" and a normal part of
reality and to suddenly be presented with the idea and notion of
taking an actual car from the real world and making it similar to
their toy car is just far to alien to them. Just doesn't fit into
their accepted view of normal reality. I've been disappointed by all
the RC types I've met and discussed(attempted) the idea of doing EV
conversions.
Hopefully this magazine coverage will possibly introduce some of them
to this and expand the EV community. It's tough trying to get people
into this. This past year I've attempted to interest many
engineering/technical performance automotive types to EV's who I
thought would be interested but they just don't take to it. My
theories:
The cost of entry, the potentially slower speed then they are used to
plus the complete unknowns(how fast will I go with a 13" motor?), and
also, the range issues. If it's not one thing, it's the other.
We need fast EV's with decent or even actually impressive range. The
price also needs to be affordable to get people interested. This
might be one of those things which it will take $10/gal gas or an
outright shortage to get them to convert.
That would be great in a time of a fuel shortage to be out cruising
the street in a high performance EV. Smoky burn outs, impressive 1/4
mile times, and no gas powered cars on the road. I bet they'd want
one then... I'm driving to work and their riding their bike..(not
that, that's a bad thing, it's just time consuming when work is 20+
miles away!)
Everyone is enjoying that $1.80/gal gas right now.. Whens hurricane
season start back up again? May? It'll be $3/gal again, if not $4
plus.. This list will be flooded with interest again. Better stock
pile the Zilla's and PFC's. I think the shortages really hampered EV
efforts last time. The adapter plate issues too(the time it takes).
Gadget might well have this worked out though if he can deliver and
the plates aren't $1k. ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ted wrote:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/915
Nice looking car and conversion!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This gets tried all the time. Somebody sets up a phpBB or other web forum,
and everybody stays on the listserv. While I like the idea of having
separate topical lists, if it doesn't have a daily digest, I'm not
interested.
Tim
------------
Subject: Re: BBS?
From: Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 22:04:40 -0600
Actually, the enormous traffic on this list is one of the reasons I'm
forced to use a webmail client on my Nokia 770 web tablet -- it does
have an IMAP email client, which dies a horrible death when subjected to
the quantity of email I receive from the EVDL.
No matter what your opinion on mailing list vs. web forum, there is no
denying that a mailing list is by far a less efficient means to
disseminate information, when that information is not universally of
interest to everyone. This inefficiency isn't important for smaller
discussions, but for something the size of today's EVDL, it impacts
performance. Having to wait more than half an hour to get a post back
from the list isn't just irritating, it tells you how much bandwidth the
EVDL server is wasting all day every day, pushing messages out to folks
who might not be interested in every topic.
And yes indeed, if the EVDL were on a web forum, I'd be able to read it
quite naturally and far more conveniently on my 770, than in its present
form.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, a few ways to guestimate series motor output.
Torque at 1,000 amps will be a bit less than twice what it is at 500 amps.
2,000 amps will be a fair bit less than twice it is at 1,000 amps.
If you keep the current the same, doubling the voltage doubles the RPM.
So the following are my guesses based on the 72V torque chart for the Warp11:
1,000 amps will be about 300 ft-lbs torque.
Assuming a 240V battery pack, and taking voltage sag into account, you
should be able to maintain a flat 300 ft-lbs of torque from zero to approx
2400-2500 rpm.
After that, torque will fall almost linearly (quicker at first, slower
towards the top) to about 100 ft-lb by the time it gets to 5,000 rpm
Note from 2500 to 5000 rpm the torque for both the 2K and the 1K are the
same. The 2K gives you maybe 1.5 to 1.75 the torque from zero to about
1,000 rpm and then starts falling until it matches the 1K at ~ 2500 rpm.
Hard to say for sure. The 2K will probably need buddy paired batteries to
handle the current. That's twice the weight in batts so acceleration
suffers, but the extra torque should make up for it, maybe.
As, I said, the above is just an educated guess. Someone else might have
more accurate data.
> Well, as I said, I have a complete lack of data on DC. Thanks for the
> quick
> rundown, I had an idea of what you wrote, but nothing in numbers to make
> it
> easily visible, if you know what I mean. I like graphs. :-)
>
> The AC - yes. The AC55 will go up to 7k RPMs at which point the TQ is half
> of that at 5k RPMs. The AC55 max is around 5k RPMs. These are the numbers
> Azure Dynamics give.
>
> The 55s are 200 LBs each, the 90 is 415 LBs! These are big suckers. With
> the
> right controller, I can see them doing MUCH more. I priced the AC90 with
> the
> -645 controller..the middle ground. The next one, the -845 (I think) makes
> it go from 479 ft*lb at 500 RPMs to 589 ft*lb!
>
> If I had some more data on the 11" DC, I'd have more to go on which I
> should
> actually do. I like the idea of regen. But I like quick acceleration too
> :-)
> I had a 2003 Mustang Cobra - that thing was fast - 4 - 5 second
> 0-60...Ah...anyway. Practicality won over on me, and I couldn't justify
> spending mucho $$$ on gas and the resulting emissions (though mine was
> completely stock, and therefore while not the greatest, I was quite
> emissions compliant)...
>
> I digress.
>
> Back to data.
>
> Average TQ over powerband (all of data, not just "useful part")
>
> ICE: 221.08
> AC90: 193.09
> 2 AC55: 188
> 2 9" 2k: 327.5
> 1 11" 1k: 195.2 <-- From 72V #s * 5 - I think it's off a bit
> 1 11" 2k: 292.8 ^^^ See above - 1.5 * above #s
>
> Thus, the 2 9" wins...but that's at 300V and 2k A...Which is a lot! I
> don't
> think I want to do dual motors (hence why I'm thinking of shying away from
> the dual AC55s), so next comes in the 2k 11" from my crazy data, then 1k
> 11", then AC 90, and finally the AC55s.
>
> I have this in OpenOffice, I'll throw it up on my server for download in
> Excel format..
>
> http://www.drobnak.com/ev/tq-compare.xls
>
> (It's 10:16 PM EST now, give me about 10 mins.)
>
> -Matt
>
> On 1/15/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Your data seems a bit off for both AC and DC.
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the AC setup can go up to 10,000 rpm. Possibly even
>> higher, but I'm sure it can do at least 10,000.
>>
>> The DC setup:
>> With a series wound DC motor, torque is maximum at zero RPM. Using a
>> 240V
>> pack, it should have good torque up to 5,000 rpm. 5,000 is the safe
>> limit, it can spin faster, but it might go into self-disassembly mode.
>>
>> Torque will be flat from zero RPM until the controller comes out of
>> current limit. The 2K will have more torque at low RPMs, but come out
>> of
>> current limit sooner and torque will drop until it matches the torque
>> from
>> the 1K which should be about the same point the 1K comes out of current
>> limit. After that torque will drop off at the same rate for both
>> controllers until you hit the RPM limit.
>>
>> Quick leasson on series wound motors. Torque is related to current,
>> more
>> current = more torque. At a given RPM, current is related to input
>> voltage, more voltage = more current = more torque.
>> Motors (pretty much all motors) produce something called Back EMF,
>> basically the motor is operating as a generator at the same time as it
>> works as a motor. THe back emf opposes the applied voltage and reduces
>> current flow. At higher RPMS you get more Back EMF and less current flow
>> for a given voltage.
>> At very low RPMS the motor produces very little back EMF and will draw
>> HUGE amounts of torque. Because of this the controller needs to limit
>> current to a safe level to avoid buring out it's transistors.
>>
>> At low RPMS the controller (effectively) limits the output voltage to
>> the
>> motor to keep current at or below it's maximum current limit. The
>> controller comes out of current limit when the input voltage into the
>> controller equals the output voltage to the motor (i.e. 100% duty
>> cycle),
>> at RPMS above this point the current will drop off because there isn't
>> enough voltage to push any more current.
>>
>> The higher the voltage you use, the higher the RPM before the controller
>> comes out of current limit. Like I said earlier, torque is flat until
>> you
>> hit current limit.
>>
>> Back to your questions:
>> With a car that heavy, and your performance goals, I think the 2k is the
>> only way to go
>>
>> I'm not sure what the points are where the controllers will come out of
>> current limit, Otmar can probably tell you.
>>
>> Though, if you can reprogram the tranny, I might be inclined to set the
>> shift points at about 4500-5000 rpm and see how it works. Set the low
>> rpm
>> points for whatever feels right.
>>
>> Unless you can afford Li=Ion batteries, your range is going to suck, so
>> you might as well make it perform well. Of course driving it for
>> performance is going to cut your range even more, but it aught to turn
>> heads for the first 10 miles...maybe.
>>
>> > Or...Not quite.
>> >
>> > Here's what I'm looking at...
>> >
>> > I'm converting a 2000 Lincoln LS, which has a 5 speed automatic
>> > transmission. I plan on keeping this. I have access to the computer,
>> and
>> > therefore can recalibrate the shift pattern as needed. I know I will
>> be
>> > losing some efficiency, but I'm trying to do this while preserving as
>> much
>> > of the car as possible. The car has a weighs about 3800 LBs (with
>> about
>> 1
>> > gallon of fuel in it).
>> >
>> > Here's the at-the-wheels data of the existing engine (this is actually
>> > from
>> > a 2002, so it's about 10-20 hp lower):
>> >
>> > RPM TQ ICE HP
>> > 500 100 9.52 1000 201 38.27 1500 220 62.83 2000 225 85.68 2500
>> 228
>> > 108.53 3000 229 130.81 3500 250 166.6 4000 255 194.21 4500 265
>> 227.06
>> > 5000 251 238.96 5500 232 242.96 6000 218 249.05 6500 200 247.52
>> >
>> > RPM,TQ,HP
>> > 500,100,9.52
>> > 1000,201,38.27
>> > 1500,220,62.83
>> > 2000,225,85.68
>> > 2500,229,130.81
>> > 3000,229,130.81
>> > 3500,250,166.6
>> > 4000,255,194.21
>> > 4500,265,227.06
>> > 5000,251,238.96
>> > 5500,232,242.96
>> > 6000,218,249.05
>> > 6500,200,247.52
>> >
>> > (Second copy for putting into spreadsheet easily, if the first doesn't
>> > come
>> > out.)
>> >
>> > Here's the configurations I've been looking at:
>> >
>> > $7,350 Warp 11" + 300 V 2K Zilla ( @ 240 V)
>> > $5,450 Warp 11" + 300 V 1K Zilla ( @ 240 V)
>> > $9,800 Azure Dynamics / Solectrica AC90 (@ 312 - 360 V)
>> > 2 Azure Dynamics AC55s (@ 312 - 360V) - Price unknown
>> >
>> > I've got data on the AC90 and the AC55 in terms of torque /
>> power...The
>> > problem is the only dyno data I can find is from the timeslip of
>> > www.jouleinjected.com but that's for 2 Warp 9"s...So I'm not sure how
>> that
>> > compares.
>> >
>> > I've come to the conclusion that comparing HP is useless. The problem
>> is
>> > the
>> > electrics (all of them seemingly) peak out way before 5,000 RPMs,
>> > therefore
>> > none of them get a good HP number...But, if you compare torque, then
>> > they're
>> > great..Except, as you can see, with the ICE it's got pretty good
>> torque
>> > from
>> > 2000-6000 RPMs. So a 4K RPM usable band. If you compare that to the
>> > electrics..it seems to be from about 500 RPMs to 3000 RPMs...or a 2500
>> RPM
>> > band, which means it'll be shifted more often.
>> >
>> > Soooooo....Which setup would you look at given I want the car to meet
>> or
>> > exceed it's original 0-60 time of 7.2 - 8 seconds...(Seems closer to 7
>> to
>> > me.)
>> > http://www.theautochannel.com/vehicles/new/reviews/2000/solo9949.html
>> <
>> > Quick reviews of the car.
>> > http://www.forbes.com/2000/12/05/1205lifestyle.html
>> >
>> >
>> > I'm looking at some 'advanced technology' batteries -- either the NiMH
>> > batteries that were talked about on this list, those that Reverend
>> Gadget
>> > mentioned in the WKtEC vid, or Altairnano batts (any idea on timeframe
>> for
>> > general public on these?)....
>> >
>> > and I want to start the conversion in 3 months.
>> >
>> > Thoughts, suggestions, donations? ;-)
>> >
>> > -Matt
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
>> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever
>> I
>> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
>> legalistic signature is void.
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you sure about the "Regen" motor? All motors can do regen (more or
less) it's the controller the determines whether you get regen or not.
I don't think Yahmaha makes electric motors, but I could be wrong.
Is the motor series wound, PMDC, or AC?
> Hi List,
>
> I have a 48v regen motor from a 2000 Club Car golf cart and a YAMAHA 48
> VOLT G-19 controller. I am converting a motorcycle and would like to
> pair these but am wondering if anyone can tell me whether they will
> match well or I should wait to find a either a Club Car controller or a
> Yamaha motor to match the other.
>
> Thanks
>
> Carl
> Denver
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matthew, try and get Wayland to get his White Zombie on the dyno this
year so we can see some dyno graphs of the hp/tq curves. I tried to
last year, but I guess he was to busy. ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is another one that has been around for some time now:
http://visforvoltage.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A quick Google search reveals some pleasing results:
http://www.acpropulsion.com/PDF files/Low_Emiss_Range_Ext.pdf
http://www.madkatz.com/acpropulsion/longRanger.html
http://www.evnut.com/rav_longranger.htm
Firstly, let's consider the PDF file. It is soon clear that even though
they mention taking the batteries to nearly 100% SOC, there is no
disconnection of the controller from the batteries. This isn't a small
generator, either (20kW). My advice to the novice is to make sure their
controller is rated to handle as high as 15V per battery, otherwise it
could get blown.
The longRanger.html gives a nice overview of the pricey ($10,000 I
believe) AC Propulsion generator trailer. This is helpful, because
along with the "white paper" PDF, it gives the details that you'd need
in order to implement something like this properly.
The third link surprised me the most:
> Amazingly, even with all the conversion losses added up, the gas
> mileage of this combo is comparable or BETTER than the pure gasoline
> version of the same vehicle.
I doubt this would be true with a DC car. Clearly, someone has done
their homework in implementing a good overall system (mostly Alan
Cocconi). It might not be practical for the hobbyist to achieve better
fuel economy, but seeing a working version of a trailer and having its
parameters should at least help set reasonable goals and expectations.
David Roden wrote:
> So yes, it may get you a bit more range.
> But is it practical? Not very.
For the inexperienced hobbyist or "newbie," I agree. But there may be
situations where you'd want to supply remote power (tools), and wouldn't
want to run down your pack. It is an interesting idea, and especially
so if you could run it on ethanol or biodiesel. Being a student, 90% of
my driving is under five miles. A trailer would be very useful if I had
a roadworthy EV.
- Arthur
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Reverend, how'd Cheech Marin's electric lowrider turn out?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Reverend Gadget
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 1:32 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Left Coast...
>
>
> I'm sure some of you have noticed that the Left Coast
> Conversions site is down. Things seldom go as smoothy
> as planned. We are now Left Coast Electric inc. The
> new site should be up in a week or so. We have changed
> the name to reflect our broader vision for the
> companies future. Our second round of funding is
> almost complete at which point we will be producing
> controllers and a battery and BMS for NiMH. That will
> all be announced on our site. We are back to shopping
> for a Lithium ion battery since things at Advanced
> Battery did not work out.
>
> Rather than just supplying the DYI and conversion
> business we will also be supplying other manufactures
> as well. Hence the name change. The new site will be
> updated often and will give all the info on our
> products and when they will be available.
>
> We are also updating the Reverend Gadget sites and all
> of them will be linked together. We are developing
> some content to put up on YouTube. I will notify the
> list when it is available.
>
> Here are some of the new products that will be
> available when the new site is up.
>
> Motor to Bellhousing Adapter Plates
>
> We now have the ability to stamp bellhousing adaters
> from 1/4 aluminum plate with 1 inch offset. They will
> be available two ways: one is a blank that is
> predrilled for your motor but otherwise just a
> rectangle that you cut and drill to suit your
> application. The other is a complete adapter, with all
> cutting and drilling done for you.
>
> Clutchless Transmission Adapters
>
> For this all you have to do is send us your old clutch
> disc. The hub is removed from the disc and is fitted
> to a special clamp on adapter with a keyway to match
> your motor.
>
> Flywheel Modification
>
> Send in your old flywheel and we will insert a hub
> with a taperlock bushing to fit your motor. We also
> can remove the ring gear and lighten it. The flywheel
> is then balanced and sent back to you.
>
> Battery Cables
>
> You will be able to order your cables already
> assembled with Vutron cable. The cable is orange to
> comply with current DOT regs on high voltage cables.
> we crimp the fitting on with a conductive grease and
> shrink red or black color coded tubing over the joint.
> They are then tested for resistance and load tested
> and checked for tempurature rise.
>
>
>
> These are just a few of the things we are working on.
> The new products will be up on the website with
> pictures when it is up and running. 2007 will be a
> great year for electric cars.
>
> Gadget
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 15 Jan 2007 at 23:15, Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Who's been on here since `91 or close to that?
My earliest surviving archives date back to mid-1994. I think I joined the
list that spring - probably about April or May. Initially I used my boss's
email account (!). I knew when he usually read his mail; I just had to
clear out the list emails before then each day. ;-)
Lee Hart was around back then, posting more than almost anyone else. He
drew ASCII diagrams, dispensed sage electrical advice, and quietly taught
newbies how things work, just as he does today. Bruce Parmentier pointed
newbies toward resources on the 'net, and posted long stories about his
adventures with his then-new EV Blazer. Paul Compton, Will Beckett, and
Randy Holmquist appeared now and then. Roderick Wilde arrived on the scene
later that year, and I see my first archived posts from John Wayland early
in 1995. I may have missed some from these folks, though, because I've lost
some of my archives (darn those floppy disks). In any case, a surprising
number of people have stuck it out here for well over 10 years.
> There are people out there who would find this list interesting and to
> be of use. But they don't know it exists.
That's the problem with >>any<< resource on the internet. These days, the
din is deafening. It'd be interesting for some of our more recent members
to report on how they discovered the list.
My impression is that we get a fair number of new people when they discover
the archives in Yahoo. For better or worse, that's where many people look
these days for affinity groups - and no, I am >>not<< suggesting that we
convert to a Yahoo or Google group!
Honestly, I think we're spending way too much time fussing over this (which
is what we do every time someone brings it up). Let him build his website -
we can't, and shouldn't try to, stop him anyway. True, a lot of such
attempts have failed to attract a critical mass of participants and, like
evforge, just sort of petered out when the person behind them wandered off
(often losing interest in both the forum / wiki / archive / whatever and in
EVs). But who knows, maybe this will be the one to succeed.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 12:15 AM
Subject: Re: BBS?
> The funny thing about all this is; in ten more years, this list will
> probably still exist and still be going and most of us will still be
> using it. Who's been on here since `91 or close to that?
> Hi EVerybody;
I think I came on about 98 or 99? On a different computer so I can't
scroll back, and look. It was a bucolic 10-15 messages a day. John Wayland I
remember then, for sure. Who goes back to Day One?Gotten to love the List as
it is, I can scroll back in my Outlook Distress mail server, for several
years. Now and again I will hoe it out, but it HAS come in handy IF I can
remember roughly WHEN a topic was discussed.
Oh I signed up to V is for Voltage, but just never got back to wading
through THAT, too!ONE EV List is plenty. Not beefing, lottsa cool guyz have
come on line in our expanding family. We ARE family! You choose to be here,
and GO to the EVents, like the NEDRA Stuff, EAA meetings and other chances
you can get to do "Real Time".
I don't watch much, or barely any TV, nowadaze I'm on 2 OTHER Lists, the
E trak, the 78 rpm record, dropped off the Ford Falcon one, just too much,
especially with my 2 finger typing!Anybody got one of thoe things you TALK
into and it types what ya said, no hands??That's what I need as well as a 30
hour day!
> This list is old school and has a bit of an elite or hardcore feeling
> to it. Other things that have a similar feel once you are there and
> realize how many others aren't and never will be: IRC, Usenet, MUDs,
> Linux, and BBS's back in the pre net days. There's more..(email me if
> you know of others)
>
> There are people out there who would find this list interesting and to
> be of use. But they don't know it exists.
> Oh! We are being"Outed!"Were easy to find, via Google, or the links on EV
websites.I think guyz sign on and the sheer VOLUME scares them away?
> One of the more truer things ever spoken: "You don't know, what you
> don't know".
> Good one! OK Who's going to BBB?Just for fun.
Seeya there.
Bob
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/628 - Release Date: 1/15/07
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I really shouldn't post the first part of this message, because it pushes
the thread further off topic. I'll be brief, and I'll demonstrate how it
more or less connects to the EVDL itself, and then I'll get back on topic
with the thread.
The letters "BBS" carry an interesting connotation for some of us. Twenty
years ago, before the WWW, before DNS, when nonlocal email addresses still
used bangs (exclamation ! points) to define the path to the recipient, BBSes
were a primary means of communication for PC users. Each one was a
standalone dialup system (some were members of Fidonet), linking to one user
at a time over modems, creating their own communities.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bbs
In fact I used the EVDL through a Major BBS's internet gateway for the first
couple of years.
Thus, one could quite reasonably argue that mailing lists are more modern
than BBSes. ;-)
"Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote :
> Here is another one that has been around for some time now:
>
> http://visforvoltage.net/
I recall when the Voltage Forum's founder was promoting it here on the list.
He hasn't been taking part in the EVDL lately, though I think I remember
his name being mentioned within the last couple of weeks.
I used to check the Voltage Forum now and then, and I noticed that even
before it was trashed by crackers, it never really drew very many enclosed
EV hobbyists (is that a reasonable term?) for some reason. OTOH, it seems
to have been a fairly popular hangout for the scooter crowd. Maybe that's
just perception, though, because there are so many more scooter fans than
enclosed EV fans.
Perhaps those considering building yet another EV forum should consider
throwing their influence behind an existing resource, such as the Voltage
Forum, instead. Just a thought.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
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Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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--- Begin Message ---
> Some folks have tried this in the past and destroyed their controllers.
> I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't advise trying it until you can find out
> what went wrong and how to avoid it.
I think they forgot that when the let up on the accelerator, the
generator will send all its power into the batteries.
If they just start driving (or even before they start driving
and fire up the generator just before taking off) the batteries
cannot handle all the current while they are full and can go well
beyond 15V per battery (I have seen AGM batteries go above 16V
with only 10A current)
If the controller was designed for a 120V system (10 x 12V battery
or 20x 6V battery) and can withstand 140 or even 150V, then it
may fail when the generator is enthusiastically charging the full
batteries to over 160V, when you start the car and close the
contactor between the batteries and the controller...
If the generator is voltage-limited to never supply more than 140V
then you may be OK, but in general the generator is not very well
regulated.
If you use a charger, it may get very confused if it sees the
battery voltage vary from 14 to 11V in a matter of seconds.
I cannot predict what the charger will do and if it will stop
charging at 14V/battery, that depends on the charger.
For example the PFC should be trimmable to a precise voltage
limit, if I understand Rich correctly.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 9:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
Technically, you both are correct, or both wrong depending on how you look
at it.
It IS possible to have a generator connected to the batteries while they
are being used. It is NOT possible to charge and discharge a battery at
the same time.
If the current from the generator is more than the load on the battery,
the surplus will go towards charging the battery. The battery will charge
and the generator will power the load as well as charge the battery.
If the load exceeds the output from the generator, then the battery will
discharge. The battery will provide part of the power for the load, the
generator will provide the rest.
So, yes you can connect a generator will driving, but no you can't charge
and discharge the battery at the same time.
Now does it take a special charger? Maybe.
Some folks have tried this in the past and destroyed their controllers.
I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't advise trying it until you can find out
what went wrong and how to avoid it.
FWIW other folks have done this with no problems.
>> You cannot charge a battery at the same time you are using it. You
>> cannot
>> make electricity go both ways at the same time.
>
> Whaaa? Why? What does a normal automotive alternator do? The
> alternator charges, the headlights (etc.) discharge. This setup works
> well because the voltage is regulated at around 14.4V, so the battery
> won't overcharge. The batteries in this case would act as an extension
> of the controller's bus capacitors, in the situation where the generator
> puts out the same power that the car needs to move.
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6247371.stm
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--- Begin Message ---
It makes a lot more noise then I thought it would. Any guesses as to
the source of the noise? I thought at first maybe it was some
unrelated vehicle off in the distance making that noise. Maybe the
generator was running?
http://www.autospies.com/news/DETROIT-AUTO-SHOW-GM-Volt-Concept-in-Action-11478/
Direct link?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1791839763235205955
This is one those corporate videos we usually don't get to see(I like
this type of material). I wish we had access to the archives the
OEM's have on their vehicle development footage.
The first guy that does some talking, his name is Tony Posawatz. It
would be neat if we could get his email and offer EV ideas/information
to him. He could make things happen.
Near the end of the video, there is what looks to be a GE logo on
something shiny on the car.
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5900/gehg6.jpg
Is it? Why and what involvement might they have in this?
I get the impression that GM would make this Volt a full blown
electric if only they could get the range out of it like they are
suggesting it will get with the generator setup(650 miles). 40 on the
pack.. Which is ok with me, but during the assembly video, I like it
till they drop that maintenance prone ICE in it. It's nice and simple
with just the electric motor and pack.
A good video overall. I think somewhere in the video, they allude to
the vehicle as being a newer or modern or more capable EV1?
Did you all ever see this?
http://www.scaled.com/projects/gmcar.html
It seems the gasoline engine is a hard sell these days(everyone sells
them). If they would make something that was new or different and it
was better and or cheaper, it would sell well and easily.
Take two vehicles side by side. Be they Cobalts or Focuses. One the
current gas model and the other, same options but electric motor and
pack with charger. It just seems most logical that the electric would
be cheaper to build when one considers the many pieces it takes to
assemble the ICE motor and all of it's support systems. Now if this
electric version was cheaper, and/or faster, it would have to sell
better hands down. The range though. I imagine there is some magic
number which the average person would accept. I'm sure some survey,
poll, or market research or study could determine what that magic
number is.
A123 should do a conversion and load that vehicle up with their
batteries and see how much range they can get out of it.
"Look GM, 300 miles on one charge!"
Have Rudman whip up a fast charge charger.. I've got 480V outlets all
over the place at both school AND work. Both indoors and outdoors.
At work, we even have outlets marked for 440!
I think Rudman even has 480 at his workplace. Now just mod a PFC-50
to handle 480V... what kind of amps would it put out?
What comes next after 480 and how much $$$? Don't think we can't
because this is the future, and in the future, we have things like
that. A high tech, high powered world. Don't think 220V at the home
is the end all be all.
I still like that idea Neon John had of having Wal-Mart(and everywhere
else) install a credit card reader and power outlets on their light
poles.
At work, they have a lot of NEV's. The breaker is right next to the
outlet. Trip the breaker? No problem! Plus, every outlet in the
building is clearly labeled as being 110, 220, etc. They really ought
to mention the amps too, but I guess right now it's not common place
to plug something in that has the capability and potential to draw
full current through an outlet(PFC Charger).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(Not entirely off-topic, I'll get to EVs in a minute)
I don't think that the oil reserves in the ground or the
melting of what once was permafrost (permanently frozen)
or the glaciers that are melting away will listen to Chrysler
saying that there is no change.
Maybe we should send "An inconvenient truth" to Chrysler HQ.
Funny that they think that bringing new oil supply online
is a solution. To me this sounds like having a savings
account for your retirement but since you have trouble
balancing your finances with only your salary, you ordered
your bank to transfer an extra $2000 per month from the
retirement fund to your credit card so you won't have a
problem to continue spending at the same rate.
Can we say "burn rate"?
If anything, it shows that Electric Vehicles will not be a
thing that finds widespread support inside Chrysler or
(apparently) the other big US automakers.
Note that this is likely just a stunt to twist public
opinion and spread doubt, that has been a successful
tactic for very long - not just for oil, also asbestos and
cigarette manufacturers used this in the past.
This means we need to continue to spread the news about EVs,
what they can and why so much FUD is spread about them and
we must continue to push for initiatives to support successful
implementation of EVs.
For example the CARB mandate in 11 US states, but also the
successes from small automakers and even the initiative
by GM to implement an electric car platform, if they turn
that into reality.
Until that moment *we* are the reality in EV land.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Osmo S.
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 12:12 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: "Chrysler questions climate change"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6247371.stm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If someone has a minute could they describe what this diameter
relates to, is it the rotor diameter or the outer case. I thoguht it
migh be the outer case but then a six inch motor would only have a
very small rotor compared to some of the motors I've seen
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> One thing has grabbed my attention over a number of different
threads.
> The same idea is in this thread too.
>
> Why the 13 inch motor??
>
> A motor converts electrical power into shaft horsepower. Nothing
more
> or less except for a *slight* difference in efficiency. Large
motors
> tend to make more torque per amp, but in turn less rpm per volt
(and
> cost much more.) The racing crowd has enough trouble getting the
launch
> torque of a single 8 inch ADC at 2000 amps to the ground without
broken
> parts (something around 350 ft/lb. of torque at 0 rpm.) Unless the
EV
> is very heavy a 9 inch motor around 150 lb. will handle the power
> without overheating (even the 4300 lb. Red Beastie only used a
single 9
> inch ADC motor.)
>
> I see around $3000 more motor than most EVs will ever need.
>
> >>> Ryan wrote,
> >>> My yet to be bought items:
> >>>
> >>> $4900 * 13" WarP
> >>> $4850 * Zilla
> >>> $1550 * PFC-20 (minimum, PFC40/50+ likely, 75 even..)
> >>> $2250 * Odyssey PC680 (30ct) ($5040 for 60, 2 strings @
> >>> 360V total) ---------
> >>> $13,550
> >>>
> >>> Will these prices never be any lower?
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
> WAR IS PEACE
> FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
> IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH
> George Orwell, "1984"
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi All, I thought the solution discussed the last time this came up in
October was the best option yet. Completely transparent to existing EVDL
users.
IIRC the web based system would receive feed from the EVDL and sort and
format it appropriately. Digests going back many years could be imported to
provide an enormous seachable resource, us old timers could continue to use
email and the young ones could have their web interface :-). The
outstanding problem at the time was how to post from the web interface to
the listproc. That project seems to have gone quiet.
Forgive me if im putting words in your mouth David Roden but i think you
rightly pointed out that the EVDL is provided free by a University and has
been around for about 15 years with very little downtime, could anyone
offering up an alternative provide that level of support and longevity. A
change of job, a death in the family etc could find us all "out in the cold".
SJSU rocks.
Cheers,
Justin
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.12/630 - Release Date: 15-01-07
--- End Message ---
