EV Digest 6310
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Shipper for TEVan?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Small DC/DC, was: PWM Module for fan
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Voltage sag, ultra-cold weather, and a new controller
by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Left Coast
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: DC-DC Converter? (was Charging while driving [JGS-EV])
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: "Chrysler questions climate change"
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Volt video (GE Logo)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Voltage sag, ultra-cold weather, and a new controller
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 1965 Datsun Battery Placement, ideas
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Volt video
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: BBS?
by Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 7000 miles unplugged
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BBS?
by Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Transalantic solar boat, Re: 7000 miles unplugged
by "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [EV] Re: [EV] RE: PWM Module for fan
by Eduardo Kaftanski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Brake motor current switch (was: Unsafe Controllers - Question ...)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Big EV Grin
by "Fred Hartsell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) KIS!! Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Transalantic solar boat, Re: 7000 miles unplugged
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If you're not in a hurry you may have it loaded in a
(sea)container and loaded on a ship or train. Saves the gas
spent in transporting it by flatbed - good for the green image.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jerry McIntire
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:02 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Shipper for TEVan?
Hi, I'm a lurker and only occasionally post to the EVDL. But now I'm
finally getting back into an EV!
I bought a Dodge TEVan on the other coast and want to have it shipped
to me in Portland, Oregon. DAS wants to treat it as a specialty
vehicle and quoted me $2300!
I have found a $1600 quote, but would be glad to have a
recommendation of a reliable shipper to bring it from Maryland to
Oregon. Of course, if you happen to be driving that route with an
empty flatbed I'd be happy to pay you...
Jerry
503-866-0565
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is the setup that I currently use:
4A 15V Toshiba laptop supply with a serious diode in series to
avoid current flowing back and reducing voltage to about 14V.
This is temporarily (I have a large DC/DC on the shelf) plugged
into the cigarette lighter to charge the battery, the Toshiba
supply is hooked up to the pack.
Note that you can't use too small a battery - if you want to
tool around for an hour in the dark then it is kinda frustrating
to see the aux battery die, so you need to turn the car off and
wait for the battery to recharge sufficient to bring you home.
I'd say 30 Ah minimum.
When you have a beefy DC/DC then you can have a tiny battery
as it only needs to survive the idle current of the vehicle
(if any - usually consists of any computers, clock, opener, ...)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Paul G.
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 4:44 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [EV] RE: PWM Module for fan
On Jan 15, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
> On this subject, I am converting a very simple car, that maybe needs
> 20 amps of electrical load on the 12v side tops.
>
> Could I get away with a really small DC/DC and a small battery?
> More like a trickle recharger than one sized for the load?
You can. Many have and plenty of EVs still do. In fact, lots of older
EVs don't even have a DC to DC converter; they charge the 12v battery
when they charge the pack.
Its a less than ideal solution because "12 volt" automotive electronics
are generally designed to work on around 13.5 volts. 14.5 volts from
the alternator plus undersized wiring and connectors is a common stock
solution.
There are lots of answers, but without knowing your EV pack voltage its
hard to give any advice.
Oh, and I notice that sometimes Roger Stockton agrees with me :-)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use (9) 8 volt batteries that are the sag masters in the cold. 59 volts at
150 amps. 59/6=9.83 volts. I don't think my Hawker AGM's in my other EV sag
near as much as those 8 volt floodies.
Bob
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Bob,
I also noticed that my batteries sag much deeper now that
it is cold. THe internal resistance has increased to the
point that with 200A they go already to 10.5V when they
are not even half empty.
It looks like yours also hover somewhere in that range
(122/12 = 10.2)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 5:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Voltage sag, ultra-cold weather, and a new controller
Hey all,
It's 28F outside. c-c-c-cold. My batts. should
have a complete charge, and yet I'm sagging down to
122V on my 144V pack, when I'm barely pulling
100-200A. Is this _really_ what EV-ing in cold
weather is like? Wow! Am I damaging batteries with
such a hard sag? (fortunately for only a 1/3-mile
trip)
The only other explanation I can think of is that I
have a new DCP 1200 controller, but I've turned down
the max current to mid-point, so that really (to me)
doesn't explain the hard sag.
Is there something else I'm missing? This is a
_brand new_ set o' batteries!
Thanks,
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________
________
No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.
http://mobile.yahoo.com/mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hey man, my bad, Tommy Chong, My Long, ees all le same to me man, those lectric
land speeders low riding to the earth man, thas
the cheet. Thas better than the magic dus that helps Santana's reindeer to fly.
I did come across Tommy's blog though mentioning the brakes. I hope he
publishes the video he referenced
http://www.cheechandchong.com/chongblog/2006/11/daily-report-from-chong.html
Thanks for the update
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Reverend Gadget
> Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:22 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Left Coast
>
>
> Hey Reverend, how'd Cheech Marin's electric lowrider
> turn out?
>
> Tommy Chong, Tommy Chong!...
>
> The car is done but we haven't been able to drive it
> yet. The entire brake system was missing! I'm waiting
> to get the car back to take it for a test drive. I'll
> post the test drive on YouTube.
>
>
>
> Gadget
>
>
>
> visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com,
> and coming soon leftcoastelectic.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, there are problems with using simple, unregulated chargers in a series
hybrid:
1) When you step on the accelerator to move the vehicle, the battery voltage
goes down resulting in an unregulated charger putting too much load on the
generator causing it to either overheat or lug down.
2) When you lift off the accelerator, the battery voltage goes up, causing
the charger to uncontrollably cut back on charge current sometimes
overvoltage the controller or overspeed the genset.
3) The poor power factor of the simple chargers limits the power out of the
genset to about 60% to 80% of the engine power capability before the
breakers open or the genset windings burn out.
The PFC chargers were built to accommodate the genset charging a battery
when it is in use:
a) The current limit will prevent overcurrent conditions that would cause
damage to the genset.
b) The voltage limit will prevent overvoltage damage to the batteries and
controller.
c) The high power factor will allow pulling rated current from the genset
without overheating or lugging either the engine or the generator.
d) The charger will maintain a constant power from the genset regardless of
battery voltage until the voltage limit is reached.
e) The charger will work on a wide voltage range to cover 100 to 250 VAC or
VDC input.
f) The charger will work on a wide frequency range to allow the engine to be
variable speed.
The last feature allows the designer to put a solenoid on the throttle to
arbitrarily pull the engine back to idle to eliminate the annoying genset
noise when stopped in traffic. I would probably connect it to a button or
switch in the driver's compartment so he can choose to quiet it to be
sensitive to his environment.
Sheer Pullen drove his Acura from Seattle to Woodburn powered by a genset on
a trailer. He had problems because 1) the PFC-50 had not been invented yet,
therefore he paralleled three PFC-20s to get enough power to push the car at
freeway speeds, 2) his trailer was too high substantially increasing his
wind resistance (traction power requirements), and 3) it was a very hot
(~100F) day causing the chargers to cut back current when operated in the
back seat area.
If I were designing the system today, I would recommend: a) a very short
trailer that gets the genset out of the wind, b) use a PFC-50B, and c) duct
outside air to the charger for cooling.
John Wayland did the Red Beastie run up the Columbia river using the ugly
box charger. I don't recall the names of other people to run EVs from
Seattle to Portland and back. Rich Rudman, John Wayland and Steve Lough
should know several others who have done it and report on the lessons
learned.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:18 AM
Subject: RE: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
>
> >> Some folks have tried this in the past and destroyed their controllers.
> >> I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't advise trying it until you can find
out
> >> what went wrong and how to avoid it.
> >
> > I think they forgot that when the let up on the accelerator, the
> > generator will send all its power into the batteries.
> > If they just start driving (or even before they start driving
> > and fire up the generator just before taking off) the batteries
> > cannot handle all the current while they are full and can go well
> > beyond 15V per battery (I have seen AGM batteries go above 16V
> > with only 10A current)
>
> That's why they run the generator through the charger. The charger takes
> care of regulating the charging current & voltage.
> As I recall, they suspected some kind of high level voltage spikes coming
> from the generator that somehow go through the charger.
>
> I think John Wayland was one of the folks that tried this and toasted
> something. I believe he was using one of Rich's PFC chargers and one of
> Otmar's controllers, but I'm not sure.
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The DCDC converter supplies 14 volts to run the accessories and lights in an
EV.
Typically, a battery is used to hold up the 12 volt bus so that it does not
sag when the heater blower motor, windshield wiper motor, or the headlights
lights are activated.
Many EVs do not have starting batteries, but if the DCDC converter is too
small, they suffer brownouts when big motors are activated or big lights are
turned on.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Long" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 4:38 AM
Subject: Re: DC-DC Converter? (was Charging while driving [JGS-EV])
> On Mon, 2007-01-15 at 20:07 -0800, Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> > The Alternator provides all the power to an
> > ICE electrical system. Once the Car is started it will
> > run without a battery. The Alternator provide a
> > recharge to the battery while providing power to run
> > the rest of the Vehicle. The Voltage regulator provide
> > the switch to recharge the battery and maintain it.
> > However the battery is only used during the initial
> > starting of the vehicle or when it is off.
>
> How does a DC-DC converter and an auxiliary battery work in an EV?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim,
That is exactly the predicted effect of "global warming",
that weather gets more extreme over time.
In The Netherlands the average winter temp is slightly above
freezing (day temp) and slightly below at night on average.
This year it has not frozen at all for the entire winter.
Since December the trees and flowers are blossoming and I
heard last week that the roses have flowers too. In Januari!
Water taps are frozen solid in San Diego and you can walk
outside without coat in New York winter.
Who needs EV's?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Tim Gamber
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: "Chrysler questions climate change"
I think global warming insn't really gobal warming... The way i see it its
more like insanly extreme weather conditions. One week its 15 C and the next
its a blizzard and minus 20C. One week it floods the next it dosn't rain at
all. The past 5 years are the crazyiest i have ever seen. The ski hills
don't open as early anymore, not because of a lack of snow, but because the
snow melts away before a base can form. Skiing is now a hit and miss. One
day the snow is really light and fluffy and the next you water skiing.
>From: "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: "Chrysler questions climate change"
>Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 10:12:10 +0200
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6247371.stm
>
_________________________________________________________________
Buy what you want when you want it on Sympatico / MSN Shopping
http://shopping.sympatico.msn.ca/content/shp/?ctId=2,ptnrid=176,ptnrdata=081
805
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
Chrysler made the rear window so small (unusable) after
hearing people say that they feel safer when you can't
see into the vehicle very well.
(Possibly one of the reasons SUVs get higher and
unsafer every year - as long as you _feel_ safe.)
It seems like these covers are also an attempt to make
the area visible inside the car smaller.
However, since you may want to see outside while driving,
they allow that still - these covers would allow a view
down to what is next to you, possibly helpful when parking.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 5:53 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: Volt video (GE Logo)
Ge is a major manufacture of plastics, Specifically they are the makers
of "lexan" (Polycarbonate The clear shiny hard plastics).
In the release video, they mention advances in plastic as one of the
enabling technologies for this vehicle.
Personally I hope they didn't use lexan, but some other clear plastic
like PETG(2 liter bottle material), Lexan is damaged if it contacts
grease and other petroleam products and although the EV doesn't need
grease it may be hard to eliminate it from the workplace and the
cleaning products.
I have bit my lip in one are since this thing started, Hopeing it is
just concept car fluff, But What is going on with those plastic covers
over the bottom half of the windows? Has anyone seen a window rolled
down at all? perhaps someone resting their arm inside that cowling? It
is obviously a separate piece, What happens when it rains? Personally I
think the car looks a little silly, like someone was trying to make it
look like those new Chryslers.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Lemke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: Voltage sag, ultra-cold weather, and a new controller
> I was about to post on this same issue. Here in Southern California, a
winter day is 75 and night about 60. Last 5 days we have seen 25 at night. I
normally have a 30+ mile range and have never given it a thought for my
grocery shopping which is 22.5 miles. Yesterday I was coming home from the
store and had to plug in for 15 minutes 900 feet from home.
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hey all,
> It's 28F outside. c-c-c-cold. My batts. should
> have a complete charge, and yet I'm sagging down to
> 122V on my 144V pack, when I'm barely pulling
> 100-200A. Is this _really_ what EV-ing in cold
> weather is like? Wow! Am I damaging batteries with
> such a hard sag? (fortunately for only a 1/3-mile
> trip)
> The only other explanation I can think of is that I
> have a new DCP 1200 controller, but I've turned down
> the max current to mid-point, so that really (to me)
> doesn't explain the hard sag.
> Is there something else I'm missing? This is a
> _brand new_ set o' batteries!
> Thanks,
> Hi Guyz:
Welcome to the wonderful? World of Weather! You left coasters have been
getting away with this for YEARS!Yeah! It sucks, having to live with half
your range, get used to it, rather than the hassle of insulating your
battery boxes. If ya do, they get too hot in our(CT) Florida like summers.
When driving your EV in Cold, like 10-15 degrees, it is pitiful how much
voltage sag ya get. By driving EVery day the batteries sorta stay warm, you
sure DO notice if you don't use the car for a day, or so.So we prey for
better batteri, that are indifferent to cold and heat!
My 10 volts drop worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dennis
Put some batterys up front in the engine room. Should have some room to
tuck those two leftovers.Maybe a few more, if need be?Put them down where
the radiater was, you can weld up a battery frame to put them down low. Are
ya thinking of fiberglassing over the grill. Should be<g>!You don't need a
grill, looks nice and makes the truck unique. Also keeps the rain out, yoiou
don't need raw water flow over the electronics. Or maybe you are where they
don't have weather?
Glassing the grill is easy enough. Grind the plastic 'Raw", so the resin
can get a grip, and get some of that thick mat they use to fix boats, cut,
lay on grill. Slop the resin in and on. Leave in sun awile. Sand smoother,
reglas it again. Sand and fill in any gaps with Bondo. Sand smooth, prime
and paint to match. You will be pleased with the "Custon" look.
Seeya at BBB
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion Group" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 7:36 PM
Subject: 1965 Datsun Battery Placement
Group;
Pulled the bed off my 1965 Datsun truck "WATTSUN" to start design of my
battery boxes.
My original intent was to put all the batteries under the bed with
hydraulic assist cylinders for access.
I really like this set up. Lower center of gravity and it still has a
usable bed.
As a newbie, I would like to stay with a single string of 12V AGM's,
144V with a weight of ~ 700# to 900#.
I'm considering a lot of different batteries, but for talking purposes
let's say I use the Odyssey PC1700/65 with a weight of 60.9 each.
This should give me 730# of lead with an everyday range of ~ 15 miles at
50% DOD.
Here is my dilemma;
This truck is really small.
Not a show stopper yet, but I may only get 10 batteries under the bed.
(3) on each side of the driveshaft and (4) behind the rear end.
I may get (4) on each side of the driveshaft, but I need to build a
plywood mockup of the box to prove out that point.
I need to stay with a battery that is heavy enough to give me the range
that I need, but that increases the size and space that they take up.
Trying to stay in my comfort zone of 144V, but I'm really starting to
see the advantage of using whatever battery fits your constraints and
not worry about total voltage.
This is the beauty of the Zilla controller.
First Question:
The emergency brake cable and frame guide brackets are in the way.
I'm assuming I will need to retain it.
Any ideas on reworking, relocating, other?
Second Question:
If I only can fit 10 batteries under the bed, any ideas on where to go
with the other 2?
By going under the bed, I have limited myself from any batteries "in"
the bed.
Do I scrap the whole idea and put "all" the batteries in the bed?
Under the hood is very small and even if they fit, I would like to keep
from putting 120# in the radiator space.
I'm trying to keep the weight distribution close to the same as original
and I figure my electric motor and controls will weigh as much as the
tiny 1200cc ICE.
I guess that I'm going to have to give on something, and I'm wondering
what would be the best way to go.
Any suggestions will be appreciated;
Thanks;
Dennis
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> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C739CF.880810AD"
> Subject: 1965 Datsun Battery Placement
> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 18:36:30 -0600
> Message-ID:
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> X-MS-Has-Attach:
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<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Thread-Topic: 1965 Datsun Battery Placement
> Thread-Index: AcbWXQYzsEM/8bSQSTCmJXv6hb+cLxjWRH4g
> From: "Pestka, Dennis J" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV Discussion Group--
>
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--- Begin Message ---
> Chris wrote:
>
>
> As for the noise and the slow speed, I wouldn't be surprised if it
> wasn't as someone has already said, just a basic mockup, ...
* Most likely thats it, or it was the generator running because they
* didn't have batteries in it
> It does show that they are committed to the idea...
* Yeah they're committed. Did you see how many engineers it took to
* get the Chevy emblem in the right place :-O
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2007-01-16 at 12:27 -0800, Storm Connors wrote:
> I've been using http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive to keep
> up. The individual messages overwhelmed my email, so I "postponed" delivery.
> Having the messages threaded makes reviewing them a little easier. Responding
> takes an extra step.
>
> Doesn't this satisfy the request for BBS or am I missing something?
> storm
One of the complaints about the mailing list is that new members repeat
questions, which leads to renewed discussion (see the on board generator
discussion this week -- perhaps the 4th time since I joined 6 months
ago).
Could the community support a wiki to address such recurring topics? If
someone suggests an on board generator, a reply with a link to the wiki
page would hopefully prevent any repeated discussion of the subject.
Wikipedia seems to have quite an extensive electric vehicle section.
However a discussion on why a homemade series hybrid isn't usually a
good idea seems out of place there.
The electric vehicle conversion wikibook would seem an appropriate
place:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion
As would seva's wiki http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/Main_Page but the
account signup email is dead (no valid MX records).
So I wrote a couple of paragraphs that kindof summarise the current
thread:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Electric_vehicle_conversion_chapter:_technologies#On_Board_or_Towed_Generator
I also stubbed battery trailers and pusher trailers.
Please contribute.
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Don't forget a set of sails for auxliary power. Lawrence Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 6:21 PM
Subject: 7000 miles unplugged
> This EV (Electric Vessel) is well on it's way to travel 7,000 miles
> under solar power alone:
> http://www.transatlantic21.org/
>
> tks
> Lock
> Toronto
> human-electric hybrid pedestrian
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2007-01-17 at 21:53 +1300, Tom Parker wrote:
> Wikipedia seems to have quite an extensive electric vehicle section.
> However a discussion on why a homemade series hybrid isn't usually a
> good idea seems out of place there.
And no sooner do I finish off my wiki modification than I find this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:Genset_trailer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/en:Pusher_trailer
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I don´t know about the sea-going nation (well, some of the vikings
were Finnish..:), but a Finnish inventor Jorma Ponkala made this in
2003. Haven´t heard of it since.
http://tinyurl.com/yr343a
terveisin,
Osmo
Lock Hughes kirjoitti 17.1.2007 kello 5.26:
`Cum on Jerry - they're Swiss! ...not known as a sea-going nation much
<grin>... Cut `em some slack. Besides, at least the solar otta give
`em
enough steerage way to keep out of the sargassum...
They "missed the boat" too, not config'ing the solar panels as air
foils à la Solar Sailor:
http://www.solarsailor.com/
L
--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Lock and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: 7000 miles unplugged
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 21:21:24 -0500 (EST)
This EV (Electric Vessel) is well on it's way to travel
7,000 miles under solar power alone:
http://www.transatlantic21.org/
While a good looking design concept wise, though for
heavy weather safety I'd put the solar cells on deck, it
will receive at least a 3 knot push from the ocean currents
on it's path plus the 15-30 knot tradewinds will give it
another 3+ knots so from aero drag, hardly just on solar
power from the cells as they are only claiming 6 knots ;^D.
There is a reason ships of old took this route as
even an empty water bottle would end up in the West Indies
in 6 months or so from off Spain. Now if they went from the
WI's back to Spain the same route would be a real
accomplisment.
Jerry Dycus
tks
Lock
Toronto
human-electric hybrid pedestrian
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Jan 16, 2007 at 04:43:52PM -0800, Paul G. wrote:
> On Jan 15, 2007, at 12:21 PM, Eduardo Kaftanski wrote:
>
> >On this subject, I am converting a very simple car, that maybe needs
> >20 amps of electrical load on the 12v side tops.
> >
> >Could I get away with a really small DC/DC and a small battery?
> >More like a trickle recharger than one sized for the load?
>
> You can. Many have and plenty of EVs still do. In fact, lots of older
> EVs don't even have a DC to DC converter; they charge the 12v battery
> when they charge the pack.
>
> Its a less than ideal solution because "12 volt" automotive electronics
> are generally designed to work on around 13.5 volts. 14.5 volts from
> the alternator plus undersized wiring and connectors is a common stock
> solution.
I will try and report. Pack voltage will be in my stage one conversion only
48V. I bought a small 48V to 15V DCDC to keep the aux batt charged. For US$5
ebay dollars it was cheap enough for testing purposes :)
--
Eduardo K. | Some say it's forgive and forget.
http://www.carfun.cl | I say forget about forgiving just accept.
http://e.nn.cl | And get the hell out of town.
http://ev.nn.cl | Minnie Driver, Grosse Point Blank
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's a very nice solution!
I was going to solve this problem with an add-on mechanical brake
switch, designed for old cars that didn't come with a brake light
circuit. It's got an adjustable spring-loaded arm that is placed so
that when you step on the brake pedal, the arm is pressed and the
switch is closed. Let up on the brake pedal and the arm returns to the
normally-open position.
I planned to mount this switch such that the arm is only pressed if the
brake pedal travels a long way (panic stop). The switch would operate
a NC relay in series with the main contactor coil. Stomp on the brake
pedal, the relay energizes and opens the circuit powering the contactor
coil, which makes the main contactor open.
John's solution is more elegant and operates faster (at first touch of
the pedal, as opposed to at the bottom of the pedal's travel). Maybe
I'll use them both, since I already have the add-on brake switch.
Comments?
On Jan 4, 2007, at 3:05 PM, Bill Dube wrote:
John Wayland figured out how to do this very cleverly several years
ago.
As I recall John placed a magnetic reed switch right next to the motor
cable so that it would open when current was flowing to the motor. He
put this reed switch in parallel with a brake pedal switch that would
open when the pedal was pressed. This whole thing was placed in series
with the main contactor "seal in" circuit.
If there was a large current flowing to the motor, and you put your
foot on the brake, it would drop out the main contactor.
Quite clever, isn't it?
Bill D.
At 02:42 PM 1/4/2007, you wrote:
Wouldn't it be possible to build a circuit that:
Disables the contractor whenever the brake lights come on AND there is
current (or voltage) on the motor? Wouldn't that clearly indicate the
drivers desire to stop even though there seems to be power delivered
to
the motor?
Somebody able to draw up a quick circuit?
Michaela
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://www.gdunge.com/>
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I had thought about trying to do that but I did not want to take a chance
and hurt the batteries if I went too far. I am aware of my lack of
knowledge on these matters and I don't want to make a costly mistake. Can
you or someone on the list recommend a good reasonable fuel meter/battery
monitor for this? My funds are limited at this time since I have just
purchased a new set of tires.
Thanks, Fred
-----Original Message-----
From: Cor van de Water [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Big EV Grin
Hi Fred,
Congrats!
If you want to test your range by driving until it does not
go any more, then make sure you have a battery monitor that
tells you when a battery sags too much (1.75V per cell or
whatever your battery spec says that is the limit) to avoid
that you reverse cells and murder your first pack.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Fred Hartsell
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 5:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Big EV Grin
Well, I am starting to get the big EV grin. I took the Dakota EV to get it
weight yesterday and while it took only 2 minutes to weigh the truck, it
took me another 30 minutes just showing it off. Then I went in town to get
new tires and a front-end alignment and I had to spend another 45 minutes
showing off the truck and answering questions. I know that a lot of you
guys have said that this would happen but I did not believe it until it
happened to me. Boy does it feel great just driving the truck around and
not having to worry about stopping at the gas station.
By the way, the truck, a 1991 Dodge Dakota, weighted 4060 pounds complete
with 20 Interstate U2400 batteries. I know that is a little heavier that I
wanted it to be but this is a Dakota and it is bigger than an S-10 or
Ranger. I am still testing to find out what my range will be. I have
driven 34 miles on my longest trip and the truck had more to go. I am
hoping to get better range with the new tires but time will tell.
Thanks, Fred
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Joe and All,
The earlier posts are some of the worst
ways to do range extention.
The real way would be using a real DC gen driven by a low
polluting motor. This eliminates all the problems below
being both eff and powerful enough to do any trip.
For pick ups, a Geo 3cyl motor only weighs
125lbs or so that directly coupled to a DC gen like a Shunt
field version of most any EV motor we use puts out massive
power without complaint safely and much more eff at a lower
cost than just a PFC charger needed the other way.
A reg AC gen is just not going to do the
job and likely to burn up.
Regulation is very easy, once the battery
pack hits a certain voltage like 14.5vdc/6cells of batt, a
limit circuit turns it off. If you need it again, just hit
the contactor to the battery pack and the shunt motor/gen
revs up, starting the gen ICE.
Done correctly can be a great addition to
an EV, maybe eliminating the need to keep an ICE too.
KIS,
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 22:42:15 -0800
>Yes, there are problems with using simple, unregulated
>chargers in a series hybrid:
>
>1) When you step on the accelerator to move the vehicle,
>the battery voltage goes down resulting in an unregulated
>charger putting too much load on the generator causing it
>to either overheat or lug down.
>
>2) When you lift off the accelerator, the battery voltage
>goes up, causing the charger to uncontrollably cut back on
>charge current sometimes overvoltage the controller or
>overspeed the genset.
>
>3) The poor power factor of the simple chargers limits the
>power out of the genset to about 60% to 80% of the engine
>power capability before the breakers open or the genset
>windings burn out.
>
>The PFC chargers were built to accommodate the genset
>charging a battery when it is in use:
>
>a) The current limit will prevent overcurrent conditions
>that would cause damage to the genset.
>b) The voltage limit will prevent overvoltage damage to the
>batteries and controller.
>c) The high power factor will allow pulling rated current
>from the genset without overheating or lugging either the
>engine or the generator. d) The charger will maintain a
>constant power from the genset regardless of battery
>voltage until the voltage limit is reached. e) The charger
>will work on a wide voltage range to cover 100 to 250 VAC
>or VDC input.
>f) The charger will work on a wide frequency range to allow
>the engine to be variable speed.
>
>The last feature allows the designer to put a solenoid on
>the throttle to arbitrarily pull the engine back to idle to
>eliminate the annoying genset noise when stopped in
>traffic. I would probably connect it to a button or switch
>in the driver's compartment so he can choose to quiet it to
>be sensitive to his environment.
>
>Sheer Pullen drove his Acura from Seattle to Woodburn
>powered by a genset on a trailer. He had problems because
>1) the PFC-50 had not been invented yet, therefore he
>paralleled three PFC-20s to get enough power to push the
>car at freeway speeds, 2) his trailer was too high
>substantially increasing his wind resistance (traction
>power requirements), and 3) it was a very hot (~100F) day
>causing the chargers to cut back current when operated in
>the back seat area.
>
>If I were designing the system today, I would recommend: a)
>a very short trailer that gets the genset out of the wind,
>b) use a PFC-50B, and c) duct outside air to the charger
>for cooling.
>
>John Wayland did the Red Beastie run up the Columbia river
>using the ugly box charger. I don't recall the names of
>other people to run EVs from Seattle to Portland and back.
>Rich Rudman, John Wayland and Steve Lough should know
>several others who have done it and report on the lessons
>learned.
>
>Joe Smalley
>Rural Kitsap County WA
>Fiesta 48 volts
>NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2007 9:18 AM
>Subject: RE: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
>
>
>>
>> >> Some folks have tried this in the past and destroyed
>> >> their controllers. I'm not sure why, but I wouldn't
>advise trying it until you can find out
>> >> what went wrong and how to avoid it.
>> >
>> > I think they forgot that when the let up on the
>> > accelerator, the generator will send all its power into
>> > the batteries. If they just start driving (or even
>> > before they start driving and fire up the generator
>> > just before taking off) the batteries cannot handle all
>> > the current while they are full and can go well beyond
>> > 15V per battery (I have seen AGM batteries go above 16V
>>with only 10A current)
>> That's why they run the generator through the charger.
>> The charger takes care of regulating the charging current
>> & voltage. As I recall, they suspected some kind of high
>> level voltage spikes coming from the generator that
>>somehow go through the charger.
>> I think John Wayland was one of the folks that tried this
>> and toasted something. I believe he was using one of
>> Rich's PFC chargers and one of Otmar's controllers, but
>>I'm not sure.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for that link Osmo!
Googled around on Mr.Ponkala and found this too:
http://www.solarnavigator.net/solar_boat.htm
So, nice to see the model eventually built and afloat! Can't tell if
she has a sauna onboard <grin>, so will save the Finnish language links
to show my friend Risto.
tks again
Lock
Toronto
--- "Osmo S." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don´t know about the sea-going nation (well, some of the vikings
> were Finnish..:), but a Finnish inventor Jorma Ponkala made this in
> 2003. Haven´t heard of it since.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yr343a
>
> terveisin,
> Osmo
>
>
>
> Lock Hughes kirjoitti 17.1.2007 kello 5.26:
>
> > `Cum on Jerry - they're Swiss! ...not known as a sea-going nation
> much
> > <grin>... Cut `em some slack. Besides, at least the solar otta give
>
> > `em
> > enough steerage way to keep out of the sargassum...
> > They "missed the boat" too, not config'ing the solar panels as air
> > foils à la Solar Sailor:
> > http://www.solarsailor.com/
> > L
> >
> > --- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Hi Lock and All,
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> >> From: Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: 7000 miles unplugged
> >> Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2007 21:21:24 -0500 (EST)
> >>
> >>> This EV (Electric Vessel) is well on it's way to travel
> >>> 7,000 miles under solar power alone:
> >>> http://www.transatlantic21.org/
> >>
> >> While a good looking design concept wise, though for
> >> heavy weather safety I'd put the solar cells on deck, it
> >> will receive at least a 3 knot push from the ocean currents
> >> on it's path plus the 15-30 knot tradewinds will give it
> >> another 3+ knots so from aero drag, hardly just on solar
> >> power from the cells as they are only claiming 6 knots ;^D.
> >> There is a reason ships of old took this route as
> >> even an empty water bottle would end up in the West Indies
> >> in 6 months or so from off Spain. Now if they went from the
> >> WI's back to Spain the same route would be a real
> >> accomplisment.
> >>
> >> Jerry Dycus
> >>>
> >>> tks
> >>> Lock
> >>> Toronto
> >>> human-electric hybrid pedestrian
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> > http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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