EV Digest 6315
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: where to start
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) EEStor Announces Production Milestones
by "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EEstor
by "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: APUs vs multi-vehicles (was : BBS?)
by Tom Parker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) motor clamping question
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Battery fragility
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Rev Counter
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: NOISY SLOW Volt Video
by "Brandon Kruger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Selecting a DC/DC to Support and E-Meter/Link 10
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re:where to start
by Rachael Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RPM counter
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) compound motors and regnerative braking
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: RPM counter
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: [electric_vehicles_for_sale] The Volt vote
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EEstor
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Spacy UFO Sounds for our EV's I LIKE IT
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: compound motors and regnerative braking
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Pictures of MES DEA system, anyone using this?
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Bill Moore EVWorld on Sce.Friday
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: NOISY SLOW Volt Video
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EEstor
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EEstor
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EEstor
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Motor Clamp for Prestolite Motor
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EEstor
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rachael,
You can learn plenty from this site: www.evsource.com
Ryan converted his 200SX, and he shares some good tips.
Good luck to you!!
Richard Rau
Northwest Electric Vehicles
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rachael Myers
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:21 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: where to start
Hi,
Just joined the list. I have a Nissan 240 sx that I'd like to convert to
an EV. I'm wondering where does someone start with a project like this?
I know this is such a "newbie" question, but any suggestions, advice, help
would be greatly appreciated.
Rachael
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in electric
vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company. EEStor, Inc.
remains on track to begin shipping production 15 kilowatt-hour Electrical
Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor Company in 2007 for use in their
electric vehicles. The production EESU for ZENN Motor Company will function to
specification in operating environments as sever as negative 20 to plus 65
degrees Celsius, will weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have ability to be
recharged in a matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15 kilowatt-hour
Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor Company in 2007 for use
in their electric vehicles. The production EESU for ZENN Motor Company will
function to specification in operating environments as sever as negative 20
to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have
ability to be recharged in a matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2007-01-17 at 14:28 -0500, David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> What we really need is a neighborhood motorpool, a variation on the Station
> Car concept. You'd never have to own a vehicle, just own a share or pay a
> monthly fee.
Zip car have been doing this for a while now http://www.zipcar.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I am getting closer to mounting my shunt wound
motor I noticed this vehicle does not have any sort of
motor mounting other than the adapter plate:
www.austinev.org/evalbum/896
Also examples in www.e-volks.com/about.html
So my question is do I really need a motor mount? The
Surplus Aircraft generator has 12 mounting holes to
mount it to an adapter plate. I will probably use 6 of
them.
Thanks for the advice
____________________________________________________________________________________
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
http://tv.yahoo.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recently posted and asked about differences between T105 and T125 batteries.
They're physically the same size (presumably sharing the same case) and it
would seem logical to me to choose 125's over 105's, as a small increase in
weight offers improved range (albeit with a price penalty). But is the T125
more prone to failure than the T105?
If there's more plates in the 125 does this make it more susceptible to failure
if the plates are thinner? How about other types of battery failures (other
than killing by over-discharge or overcharge)? We live in the boonies and the
roads are anything but smooth. Should battery boxes be rubber mounted to help
prevent a bumpy ride?
I'm just using the Trojan's as an example - I've been lurking here awhile and
don't recall having read much about physical failures.
Would appreciate any experience, comments, etc. My glider is a '94 Toyota
truck.
TIA
____________________________________________________________________________________
Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels
in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit.
http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My eyes are rolling at the thought of it !
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> "Tachometer" is a bit weird, as "Tachos" in greek for "speed," so a
> "Tachometer" is really a "Speedometer" Maybe "Vertometer" would be
> better? From the Latin "Verto", "to turn". But then again, a
vertometer
> is something used by ophthalmologists to measure lenses.
>
> Chris wrote:
> > Revolution counter to ships captains, tachometer to automotive
> > technicians, repetitive event rate monitor and display unit to
> > scientists !
> >
> > Trivial and available elsewhere, but very useful all the same.
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I read it takes about 6 hours to charge and I believe they chose the
110V because well, it's everywhere. Most people only have a 240V for their
dryer and I'm sure the thought of needing to call an electrician to charge
your car isn't too appealing to some people.
Brandon
On 1/18/07, Death to All Spammers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Try one or both of these:
>
>
>
http://www.autospies.com/news/DETROIT-AUTO-SHOW-GM-Volt-Concept-in-Action-11478/
>
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1791839763235205955
>
Did she unplug from a 110V cord? How long does *that* take for a recharge?
I guess GM gave up on inductive paddles...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wouldn't this be a case where splitting the pack and providing the power for
the emeter from the low end would be a straightforward solution? Would the
emeter draw enough power to unbalance the pack? Another thought would be to use
full pack voltage with a resistor to drop it down to the voltage required for
the emeter power supply. I would think the current needed by the emeter would
be negligible. How much do these things draw?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi,
> Just joined the list. I have a Nissan 240 sx that I'd like to
convert to an EV. I'm wondering where does someone start with a
project like this?
> I know this is such a "newbie" question, but any suggestions,
advice, help would be greatly appreciated.
> Rachael
>
Matt Graham can probably give you the most appropriate advice -
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/836 - but you may want to start at
lower performance than Joule Injected!
Thanks, I actually came across his website just after sending
this initial message, I've emailed him but haven't heard
back yet. Where he modified for speed, I'd like or hope
to go more for range, I've been reading some, is the idea of
100 miles per charge just not a feasible idea? I don't mind driving
say 55 or something like that if it helps **shrugs** being new I'll ask
the really silly question, is a car that can go 60 and has a 100 mile range
feasible or am I just dreaming? And if it is feasible, can you build one
that has plug-in charging like some hybrid modifiers I hear are doing?
I'd much rather have an EV then even a hybrid, just wondering
if I'm expecting too much?
Thanks for the advice,
Rachael
---------------------------------
Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and
always stay connected to friends.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
what's your best guess on how to input a signal to this RedingtonRPM
display?
on the tailshaft of a 9"DC motor, put a magnet?
something else to make it pulse?
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I was thinking of motors, I was interested in the compound motor. I
understand that it combines the advantages of both the series and shunt motors.
Does it regenerative braking like a shunt? If so, can you make use of it, if
you are only using the standard series motor controllers? Or do you need a
special controller to have this ability? I am interested in having
regenerative braking in my ev, but know it is hard with series motors. I am
not so interested in the ability of it in the aspect of increase in range. I
am more interested in not making the brakes work to hard, and not wasting
energy in the form of heat. I appreciate comments.
Thanks,
Brian
---- Msg sent via USU WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ben,
I use two of these units on my pilot shaft of my motor. My pilot shaft is
connect to a drive shaft to my accessory units, so I had to use a split
collars to attach magnets to the shaft.
One set of is a sensor unit I got from Café Electric, which is use as a rpm
imitator for my Zilla, but I use the output to my tach in the AMPS ON TACH
mode, so I can read my motor amps on a large indicator which is the must
important indicator for me.
I also wanted to read the rpm of the motor, so I did the following.
I use one of those neomagnets that I got 8 to a package from ACE Hardware
for about $4.00
Use one of those magnet door switches for alarm systems from All
Electronics. These switches just push into a 1/4 inch drill hole. They are
about $0.50 each in ten to a pack. They are normally open.
I did pick up a steel collar that set screw and key on to the motor shaft
that you can get from a place that sells, bearings, pulleys, belts and etc.
They also make these in split collars that also work too.
Drill a 1/4 inch hole about 3/16 inch deep in the outside edge of the collar
for setting in one of the magnets. Clean the magnet with alcohol or lacquer
thinner, applied a JB Weld into the 1/4 inch hole and press in the magnet.
Use a 1/8 inch by 3/4 inch flat aluminum bar to hold the magnet switch.
This bar should be long enough with a offset bend in it so it can be bolted
to one of the bolt holes in the face of the motor.
Drill a 1/4 inch hole in this bar and push in the magnet switch. Do not
glue it in. It fits tight and you may have to replace it someday.
Run the magnet switch leads to a rpm or pulse solid state digital indicator
you can get from www.surplussales.com for about $10.00. You then run a fuse
voltage source of 6 to 24 volt to this indicator and can program it for
either rpm or pulse display.
On the pulse setting, it will count 1 pulse for 1 turn of the motor shaft.
If you count the pulses for one minute, that will be the rpm of the shaft.
If you select for a rpm indication, then this unit calculates the number of
pulses per minute and display as RPM.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:10 AM
Subject: RPM counter
> Roland,
> what's your best guess on how to input a signal to this RedingtonRPM
> display?
>
> on the tailshaft of a 9"DC motor, put a magnet?
> something else to make it pulse?
>
> Thanks, Ben
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The current vote for potential purchases of the Volt is 21,150 vs 1388
saying no.
Watch the vote climb!
----------------------------------
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Chevron probably got wind of the survey and told all their executives
to go on line and vote no!
Jeff
-------------- Original message --------------
From: JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I notice a sudden increase in the NO vote in the last 24 hours,
almost
an order of magnitude.
What happened?
To see the results go to
Chevy Volt Survey
<http://www.gmsurveys2.com/se.ashx?s=7C7FD94F76D8CE27
<http://www.gmsurveys2.com/se.ashx?s=7C7FD94F76D8CE27>>
And vote again.
_
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good to
be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many times is
just various articles based on press releases from the company. The second
thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the product again
and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a scam, just so I
can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible amount of opposing
viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these posts to help me form an
opinion. I suggest that others use this same process when trying to discern
the truth on new products. Here is just one post of many you may find of
interest. It was posted on The Green Car Congress web site on 1/17/07 by
Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage capacity.
Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due to
the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power inverters and
power transformers are typically designed to handle battery voltages from
250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x Voltage Squared,
reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will reduce the storage
capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can explode
violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other stresses that can
lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain reaction, the
entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as fast as a bomb
explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof casing to contain
this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy that can be released
in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber layers that will be very
heavy and costly. You might have better luck making a Compressed Hydrogen
tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2 by itself without O2 cannot
combust. Structural weakness in the carbon fiber tank may allow the H2 to
leak out at a fast rate, but it will not explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor Company
in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU for ZENN
Motor Company will function to specification in operating environments as
sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will weigh less than 100
pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.13/632 - Release Date: 1/16/2007
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.14/637 - Release Date: 1/18/2007
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi David etc,
Yes, I have a copy of Total Recall and bought a PMC-25 to put in my Porsche
I'm building now because I like the sound (and it was cheap). I didn't realize
it was in the movie, must have been a subliminal thing, now I know why I bought
it and have been making controls that go eeeeee when most others think I'm a
mutant and should have quiet controls. At least I'm not the major cause of
road kill in Roanoke, VA anymore.
BTW, someone was asking about my resonant mode charger, it's patent number
6,218,812 from 2001 and on www.uspto.gov (but it doesn't go eeeeee, it's at
50kHz
Cheers,
Mark
aka (Mork from Ork)
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [email protected]
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2007 11:22:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Spacy UFO Sounds for
our EV's I LIKE I T !! Plain Text Attachment [ Scan and Save to Computer |
Save to Yahoo! Briefcase ]
On 16 Jan 2007 at 19:33, Rod Hower wrote: > Almost all modern > controls
switch at frequencies above audible for most > humans, but I always enjoyed
the Jetsons sound of the > TEVan.... The film "Total Recall" (yes, the one
with the CA governator) has EVs providing transportation in the domed city
where the action takes place. Most of them are RQ Riley models, but the
sound comes not from the models, but from a Honda EV I used to own.
Many years ago, I bought my '74 Honda Civic already converted from a CA
owner, a member of EVAOSC. This is the story he told me, and I have no doubt
that it's accurate. When Total Recall was being made, the producers
contacted the club to find someone whose electric car they could record,
and they hooked up with the Honda's (now long since former) owner. One
morning they brought an audio van to his house, set up, and recorded the
car from every possible perspective, inside and out. They
chose the Honda for the film over another EV they recorded. They said
they rather liked the more audible gear noise from the Honda's
transmission. Nobody objected to the PMC-25's 2kHz chopping rate, either.
The car emitted that tone very clearly any time it was in current limit,
not just when creeping around a parking lot. (As Mark Hanson points out, it
was good for warning animals away. ;-) The noise never bothered me, and
apparently the producers thought it was just as appropriate as the gear
noise. The way they accelerated (usually fast), typically the tone is
audible for a second or two, sometimes more. So, rent Total Recall
sometime. That's a real EV you hear. Several times, the 2kHz tone is
plainly audible when one of the cars accelerates. David Roden - Akron,
Ohio, USA EV List Administrator
---------------------------------
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Brian,
Does a compound motor regen brake like a shunt motor? Not exactly. If
driven above base speed, current through the armature would reverse; giving
negative torque, but the current through the series field would also reverse
and buck the shunt field, which would raise the base speed and reduce negative
torque. If you want to use a shunt motor for regen over the whole speed range,
you need to go from a quarter bridge armature control to a half bridge and
control the field separately, making it a separately excited motor. Once this
is done, get the proper field winding and you dont need the series field
anymore. You can over excite the sep-ex field and pretty much match what a
series field would do.
Jeff
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
As I was thinking of motors, I was interested in the compound motor. I
understand that it combines the advantages of both the series and shunt motors.
Does it regenerative braking like a shunt? If so, can you make use of it, if
you are only using the standard series motor controllers? Or do you need a
special controller to have this ability? I am interested in having regenerative
braking in my ev, but know it is hard with series motors. I am not so
interested in the ability of it in the aspect of increase in range. I am more
interested in not making the brakes work to hard, and not wasting energy in the
form of heat. I appreciate comments.
Thanks,
Brian
---- Msg sent via USU WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
---------------------------------
Don't pick lemons.
See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That inverter looks quite nice!!! I'm going to guess that you run the motor
phase wires through the current transducers on their way to the IGBT's,
right? Do you know who's IGBT's those are? Powerex? IR? Fairchild? That
looks pretty compact, considering the current it puts out.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EV Fans..
I urge you all, to go to the "Talk of the Nation Science Friday"
web site and down load or stream last fridays interview with our
good friend Bill Moore of EVWorld... A great POSITIVE interview
with good call in guests bringing up all the Right Points...
http://www.sciencefriday.com/
I have down loaded the whole 17 minute interview, ( 15.5 megabits ) in
MP3 format. As soon as I can get one of our guys to shrink it a bit
more, we will POST it up on the Seattle EV Web site, for those who wish
to listen to it again... ( or for the first time..)
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Again... I am sure this VOLT does NOT have its AC Drive motor, Its Gas
Generator, or its 40 miles of Li-Ion Batteries mounted IN IT...
Its a "Mock - UP"
So, there is no way to answer "how long" it would take to charge up the
(Yet to Be) Li-Ion battery pack from a 110 ac 20A circuit. I think the
engineers can estimate it. "Over Night" I heard one of them say...
That could be 8 oir 10 hours...
They will probably use some kind of "Mule Vehicle" as I think they are
called, like a Saturn Vue, or something ...to TEST those Li-Ion Packs,
once A123/Cobassy and/or SAFT delivers a Pack or TWO to General Motors
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.autospies.com/news/DETROIT-AUTO-SHOW-GM-Volt-Concept-in-Action-11478/
>>
>> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1791839763235205955
Did she unplug from a 110V cord? How long does *that* take for a recharge?
I guess GM gave up on inductive paddles...
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been curious about the safety of 52KW HV cap. Man, the explosive
potential could be impressive. Or it may just burn, it's hard to say.
The guy is whining about the high voltage. It's a big concern, that's
for sure, but not insurmountable. What people aren't realizing is EVs
really do become more practical at higher voltages and lower current
levels. The cable needs extra-special insulation but doesn't need to be
thick or have ultra-low resistance terminals. At 3500V vs 120V the wire
only needs to carry 1/29th the current. 8ga is more than enough. Other
things would of course need to change, the motor would be wound
differently and brush motors may be impossible due to the arcing
potential of high voltage.
So they're actually putting out a cap, but 15KW instead of 52KW? Well
that's the sort of degradation from the initial bold proposal I would
expect and they might release a bigger version later (or you just put
several together). It says "under 100lbs" which is less than half the
weight of the proposed 52KW so the energy density isn't all that far
off- they apparently just want to start small.
Danny
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too
good to be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which
many times is just various articles based on press releases from the
company. The second thing I do is then go to Google and type in the
name of the product again and add the word scam behind it. Not that I
think it is a scam, just so I can read opposing viewpoints. If there
are an incredible amount of opposing viewpoints I start to wonder. I
read many of these posts to help me form an opinion. I suggest that
others use this same process when trying to discern the truth on new
products. Here is just one post of many you may find of interest. It
was posted on The Green Car Congress web site on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage
capacity. Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for
quite sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed
by EEStor company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is
due to the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power
inverters and power transformers are typically designed to handle
battery voltages from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2
Capacitance x Voltage Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a more
reasonable 500V will reduce the storage capacity of the EEstor from
52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can
explode violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other
stresses that can lower the dielectric property of the material. In a
chain reaction, the entire energy of this supercapacitor can be
released as fast as a bomb explosion. If you wanna build a thick,
thick bomb-proof casing to contain this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of
TNT-equivalent) of energy that can be released in a flash, you will
need a lot of carbon fiber layers that will be very heavy and costly.
You might have better luck making a Compressed Hydrogen tank out of
carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2 by itself without O2 cannot combust.
Structural weakness in the carbon fiber tank may allow the H2 to leak
out at a fast rate, but it will not explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used
in electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors
Company. EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production
15 kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor
Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production
EESU for ZENN Motor Company will function to specification in
operating environments as sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees
Celsius, will weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have ability to be
recharged in a matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.16.13/632 - Release Date:
1/16/2007
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Pham posts a lot on GCC.
I'm not defending EESTORE, I really have no clue wether they're a scam
or not. However I feel compelled to correct mr Phams missinformed
posting.
First off, 52kWh is 94lbs of TNT not 180, still quite a lot though.
However eestore claimed somewhere that their pack is made up of 2000
sub modules, so the energy stored in each module is ~20 grams worth of
TNT, this means you can engineer protection mechanisms between modules
so that one exploding cell does not cause the whole pack to explode.
As a comparison, Teslas 50kWh pack consists of 6800 lithium cells, any
one of which can explode without setting off the rest.
Second, as we all should know, energy does not equal power. TNT is as
powerful as it is because the reaction time is extreemly short, power
equals energy over time so the shorter the time the more violent the
explosion. We don't know how fast a shorting eestore capacitor would
discharge its energy so we have no clue what the resulting explosion
would be like, hence the comparison to TNT is plainly missleading. For
all we know a shorted eestore capacitor might just result in a fizzle.
On 1/18/07, Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good to
be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many times is
just various articles based on press releases from the company. The second
thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the product again
and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a scam, just so I
can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible amount of opposing
viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these posts to help me form an
opinion. I suggest that others use this same process when trying to discern
the truth on new products. Here is just one post of many you may find of
interest. It was posted on The Green Car Congress web site on 1/17/07 by
Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage capacity.
Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due to
the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power inverters and
power transformers are typically designed to handle battery voltages from
250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x Voltage Squared,
reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will reduce the storage
capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can explode
violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other stresses that can
lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain reaction, the
entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as fast as a bomb
explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof casing to contain
this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy that can be released
in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber layers that will be very
heavy and costly. You might have better luck making a Compressed Hydrogen
tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2 by itself without O2 cannot
combust. Structural weakness in the carbon fiber tank may allow the H2 to
leak out at a fast rate, but it will not explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
> http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
>
> The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
> electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
> EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
> kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor Company
> in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU for ZENN
> Motor Company will function to specification in operating environments as
> sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will weigh less than 100
> pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a matter of minutes.
>
> Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
> Greg
>
>
>
> --
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>
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www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This may be the funniest statement I've seen on this list.
Danny
Peter Gabrielsson wrote:
First off, 52kWh is 94lbs of TNT not 180
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the great information on fabricating a motor mount Roland.
That's a good idea to use a section of 8" pipe to make the clamp part. I
hadn't thought of that.
I'm still looking for a 7.2" motor clamp that I could just buy, or something
that I could adapt without having to fabricate the whole thing. Any one
have any ideas or advice?
Bruce
____________________________________________________________
Roland Wiench wrote:
> Hello Bruce,
>
> Just go to a steel yard and pick up a short length of 8 inch 10 gage
tubing.
> This tubing should read 8 inches outside diameter. Leaving about 7.75 inch
> inside diameter.
>
> Lets say the pipe section is 4 inches long, than pick up pick up a length
of
> 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 inch by 1/8 flat bar which you need to get four lengths of
it
> that will be 4 inches long.
>
> Now cut the tubing in half to make two clam shell sections and cut
addition
> 1-1/4 off one section on each end so the diameter of this tubing will be
> reduce down to your motor diameter.
>
> When you cut the tubing in half it will spring open a little, so you will
> have to bend it back to fit the curve of the motor.
>
> The flat bar will then be welded to the the end of the curved tubing
section
> at 90 degrees that will have two holes in it for clamping around the the
> motor with 3/8 inch by 2 inch bolts.
>
> If you want a flat bottom for it, Then weld on two lengths of angle iron
> going the width of the band, with the two legs against the band and the 90
> degree corner downward.
>
> Then you weld a 4 inch by 1/4 inch flat bar so the angle iron corners rest
> on.
>
> Instead of installing a flat base on my motor mount. I welded on a 3/4
inch
> thick by 2.5 inch wide steel flat bar on the bottom clam shell about half
> way down from the bolt flange clamp.
>
> Before this bar was welded on, I drill two holes in it and tap it for a
1/2
> inch bolt hole which match a engine mount for a engine.
>
> I first bolted this bar to the engine mount and position it on the cross
> member where it was bolted on. It may not be exactly in the same spot but
> may be back further to the fire wall. I then clamp on the clam shell and
> dry fit the motor in position so the clam shell is resting on engine
mounts.
>
> I normally did this with the motor attach to the transmission, so the
motor
> position exactly level in relationship to the pinion U-joint on the
> differential.
>
> The transmission output shaft axils and differential axils should be
> parallel to each other, but is not inline. There should be at least a 2
> degree angle of the drive shaft between the two while the car is on the
> ground. While it is jack up it the differential will drop to at least 4
> inches in a 6 foot length of drive shaft.
>
> When the differential rises up and down, the drive shaft should be allow
to
> slid in out of the transmission. So make sure you do not butt the
> transmission output shaft against the drive line U-Joint.
>
> If you did not record this amount of slippage while the engine was
connected
> and the amount of drive line drop, then you should look at a shop manual
for
> these specs.
>
> Normally if you place the rear transmission mount on the same location,
you
> should be ok for length.
>
> My GM transmission has about 1 inch space from the U-joint when the car is
> down and about 1.5 space when the car is jack up.
>
> This part of the installation is very important other wise the needle
> bearings in the U-joint will not rotate if you are directly in line.
>
> After you dry fit the motor and transmission, then you can position your
> motor mounts in the correct position for welding on to the bottom clamp
> shell. I then tack weld the motor mounts to the clamp shell and then
remove
> the clam shell for finishing the welding and paint.
>
> In my case, my motor was so far back from the cross member section, it
miss
> it all together. So I position and tack welded the engine mount on the
clam
> shell as close to the rear of the cross member. Then bottom of the engine
> mounts were hanging in mid air.
>
> This gave me a reference point for welding on a steel extension on the
rear
> of the cross member. I use a 4 inch by 4 inch by 3/8 inch angle iron that
> was also gusset for a platform for the motor mount.
>
> If you use a flat bar platform on the bottom of the clam shell, then you
can
> use this same method for building a platform of the right height.
>
> If you place you car on jack stands all round, it is best to use a
magnetic
> base level that has a round dial that has 360 degrees. I use a MD or
> Mackianburg-Duncan degree dial I pick up from Home Depot.
>
> Check the level of the differential. Lets say its reads 2 degrees,
because
> your vehicle may not be exactly level, than make sure your motor is at 2
> degrees, so both units are parallel to each other.
>
> After you check the right height of the motor, than you can position your
> motor platform in the correct position.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2007 9:21 PM
> Subject: Motor Clamp for Prestolite Motor
>
>
> > I need a motor support for an older Prestolite MTC-4001 motor. This
would
> > be to support the end of the motor furthest from the adapter plate and
> > also
> > to torque restrain the motor.
> >
> > I assume it would consist of two parts. The base would be flat on the
> > bottom and have a concave cylindrical surface the shape of the motor on
> > top.
> > The second part would be a band clamp that went around the motor and
could
> > be tightened very snugly to the base to secure the motor from rotating.
> > Both parts would need to fit the Prestolite's 7.2" outside diameter. I
> > have
> > found clamps for 6.7 inch and 8 inch motors, but not 7.2 inch.
> >
> > So, can I buy something like this? Or will I have to fabricate it? Are
> > there ready made band clamps and bases that were made for other things
> > 7.2"
> > in diameter, that I might be able to adapt?
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Bruce
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The really funny thing to me is that their target market and their exclusive
marketing agreement is for a 72 volt NEV by Feel Good Cars. Something in
this picture does not jive in my head. Please go read all the articles you
can find. The one I posted is one of many as I did say in my post. You may
want to also research the availability of 3500 volt EV motors or for a start
try finding 1000 volt ones. Concerning high voltage, you are correct that
higher voltage uses smaller gauge wire to achieve the same watts. That is
why Europe uses half the copper in their homes as the US does which most
likely amounts to a waste of resources in the amount of millions if not
billions of tons of copper. I wonder who thought up that brilliant idea.
Most likely a copper lobby.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
I have been curious about the safety of 52KW HV cap. Man, the explosive
potential could be impressive. Or it may just burn, it's hard to say.
The guy is whining about the high voltage. It's a big concern, that's for
sure, but not insurmountable. What people aren't realizing is EVs really
do become more practical at higher voltages and lower current levels. The
cable needs extra-special insulation but doesn't need to be thick or have
ultra-low resistance terminals. At 3500V vs 120V the wire only needs to
carry 1/29th the current. 8ga is more than enough. Other things would of
course need to change, the motor would be wound differently and brush
motors may be impossible due to the arcing potential of high voltage.
So they're actually putting out a cap, but 15KW instead of 52KW? Well
that's the sort of degradation from the initial bold proposal I would
expect and they might release a bigger version later (or you just put
several together). It says "under 100lbs" which is less than half the
weight of the proposed 52KW so the energy density isn't all that far off-
they apparently just want to start small.
Danny
Roderick Wilde wrote:
Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good
to be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many
times is just various articles based on press releases from the company.
The second thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the
product again and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a
scam, just so I can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible
amount of opposing viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these
posts to help me form an opinion. I suggest that others use this same
process when trying to discern the truth on new products. Here is just
one post of many you may find of interest. It was posted on The Green Car
Congress web site on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
Roderick Wilde
By Roger Pham
"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage capacity.
Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
company.
The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due
to the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power
inverters and power transformers are typically designed to handle battery
voltages from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x
Voltage Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will
reduce the storage capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can
explode violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other stresses
that can lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain
reaction, the entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as
fast as a bomb explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof
casing to contain this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy
that can be released in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber
layers that will be very heavy and costly. You might have better luck
making a Compressed Hydrogen tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2
by itself without O2 cannot combust. Structural weakness in the carbon
fiber tank may allow the H2 to leak out at a fast rate, but it will not
explode."
Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
Subject: EEstor
http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor
Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU
for ZENN Motor Company will function to specification in operating
environments as sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will
weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a
matter of minutes.
Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
Greg
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