EV Digest 6320
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: EEstor
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Potentiometer swap questions
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Potentiometer swap questions
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: where to start .. optimum speed for wind resistance
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) General Electric EV-1 SCR Control System Analyzer
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EEstor
by "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) 600 amp meter and shunt on Ebay
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Opening the Curtis 1212B
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) ZeroMow Electric Lawn Mower?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Potentiometer swap questions
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Battery fragility
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Selecting a DC/DC to Support and E-Meter/Link 10
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Funding a conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EEstor Freedom's an' Sunrises .
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: ZeroMow Electric Lawn Mower?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
16) Re: Potentiometer swap questions
by "Darin - MetroMPG.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: affordable BMS?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Link-10 with RS-232 Discontinued
by MARK DUTKO <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: compound motors and regnerative braking
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EEstor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
There actually is not a need to do a separate DC/DC, as the
voltage from the capacitor will stay very high for most of
the discharge - a capacitor is not so much different than a
battery in that you can use 50% of the energy and see less
than a 30% drop in voltage.
So, dependent how the system is setup, for example with an
AC motor and extra induction inside the controller, you
could make a controller that handles a 1:5 voltage variation,
from 700 to 3500V input and supplies a constant 500V AC output
over this entire voltage range, to drive a powerful AC motor.
When the input is at 3500V, then the output supplies max 20%
duty cycle signal in the peaks of the AC voltage.
When the input voltage has sagged to 700V then the controller
needs to go full-on during the peaks of the AC, any lower input
and the output voltage needs to be reduced to avoid distortion.
Note that when the capacitor has sagged from 3500 to 700V then
the remaining energy is only 4% of the capacity, which means
that you can use almost all capacity available without need
for special measures in energy conversion. Input voltage range
of a factor 5 is not a problem in a lot of power supplies, I
have worked with commercial products that had a factor 6 range
without impact on cost (10V to 60V input) and as I sketched
above, a controller may need special high voltage parts to
switch the input, but as long as sufficient cooling and current
capability is designed in, then there is no other penalty than
just providing the required number of switches in parallel to
carry the current for the specified output power.
If I am not mistaken, for 100 kW power into the motor at 500V
3-phase, each leg carries an average of 133A (which runs through
the internal inductance) while the silicon switches connected to
the input carry this average current only during max 20% of the
time when running from 3500V input, the other 80% or more it
freewheels through the switches connected to ground. When the
input sags to 700V the AC waveform touches the input at the
peak, so the switches have a short moment of full-on, then the
freewheel switches take over to supply the lower output voltage,
ramping down to full-on at the peak in the negative half.
This means that the average current draw from the EEstor is
slightly less than 30A at 3500V to supply 100 kW from the
controller, ramping up to slightly over 140A at 700V.
Charging at constant power is the reverse: starting at high
current when discharged deeply, ramping up in voltage and
tapering the current for the same power.
Would really be fun to not worry about charging profile
and equalization and temperature compensation - just plug
it into the range or dryer outlet, suck down 10kW for an
hour or so and be on the go.
If you have no time to charge and enough juice to reach
where you want to go then do not worry about batteries
sitting empty or SOC, as long as you are not below 96% DOD
you can go full steam ahead.
Hmm sweet dreams - becoming reality before we know it.
This is going to be a major breakthrough for EV.
No oily company can claim "the batteries are not there yet".
Or actually they can - these are not batteries.
With 50kWh in the original form, it is no problem to give
a truck 150 miles of range and a light conversion 300 miles.
Drag racing? If this device can be charged in less than 5 min
then it can also discharge in minutes, maybe even shorter.
How does a couple of MegaWatts sound? Can you keep that on
the road and - more important - can you find a motor and
controller handling such power?
I would be thrilled to have a high powered truck, although I
get around just fine with the 50kW AC Controller I have today.
It never gets warm - temp report from the controller is always
a few degrees above outside temp even after half an hour
driving. I actually disabled the electric radiator fan,
because it created a lot of noise without benefit.
(The original S10 radiator is used for water-cooling the
controller and AC motor)
My pack is now 312V, while the controller is rated for 700V
so if I would install an EEstor and 100kW DC/DC to create
700V to allow my existing controller to be used to its max,
then it would be able to crank out 140kW, as I see it take
200A from the DC bus. That would be tire-smoke time.
I'll just baby-sit my current pack until it is time to change...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Greg Watson
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 4:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EEstor
Hi Roderick,
EEstor has been very tight lipped and getting info is like pulling hens
teeth. I tried several times and hit blank walls. That they have finally
done a PR with stats is interesting as they APPEAR to have done their
homework and they do realize how big the potential volume is.
The DC to DC converter will be interesting as it will need a very wide input
voltage range to get the 100% discharge claimed. Unlike batteries which
provide a somewhat constant voltage during discharge, these caps will show
a, in reference to batteries, steep voltage decline and as such they can't
be used in most applications which what to go deep cycle without the DC to
DC converter.
As for why Feel Good and not someone else, well I guess they had to start
somewhere and sometimes small companies are more risk oriented and will go
for what seems like "Blue Sky" scheme.
BTW I'm buying a Prius and doing a plug-in conversion. Of course the
batteries will be charged by SunCubes at our factory. Maybe some day soon I
will install a EEstor energy bank with a LOT more range. I mean 52 kWh is a
lot of energy. We may even put them into our SunCubes so they can generate
AC kWhs 24 / 7.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: EEstor
>I have read the press releases for KPCB funding EEstor but when I go to the
>KPCB web site under their portfolio of private companies they are not
>listed. http://www.kpcb.com/portfolio/portfolio.php Could you shed any
>further light on this? The Feel Good deal still doesn't feel so good to me
>when there are more well funded people out there that they could have
>approached with this technology such as Tesla Motors for instance. Maybe
>they did approach Tesla, GM and Toyota as well as Panasonic just to name a
>few. Maybe they did and just couldn't get the deal they wanted. Maybe I am
>just a bit too skeptical. Probably the last fifteen years in this business
>has made me so. I need to start having more faith in press releases. I
>still do hold out a lot of hope for affordable super batteries and I do
>believe we will eventually have them.
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Stuart Friedrich and Wendy Lyn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 3:03 PM
> Subject: Re: EEstor
>
>
>> I'd have to agree with Greg here (but maybe not the tone of the answer).
>> Down-regulating the steadily decreasing voltage coming from a discharging
>> cap to provide a constant voltage to a motor controller can be done. The
>> scientists and engineers who are developing this product have done their
>> due diligence, and would not be bothering with such a huge development
>> cost to develop a product that is not usable due to other technical
>> issues. Also, Feel Good Cars would not be buying them unless they could
>> use them.
>>
>> On the voltage safety issue, I've read that some microwaves have 2500V
>> caps, although these would be smaller caps.
>>
>> Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers provided the venture capital for EESTOR,
>> and these guys would not be supporting a hack company.
>>
>> The patent for the company:
>> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20040071944.pdf
>>
>> IMHO this is the true next generation energy storage device, rather than
>> tweaking chemical batteries.
>>
>>
>> From: "Greg Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: [email protected]
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Re: EEstor
>> Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 08:17:02 +1030
>>
>> Hi Roderick,
>>
>> As an EE I fully understand energy storage in capacitors as well as the
>> safety issues. I can assure that both are doable and I see no reason why
>> 3,500v is a problem. That Roger suggests the way to lower the voltage is
>> by reducing the charge voltage is not very cleaver. Designing a DC to DC
>> converter is part of handling energy storage in caps as the voltage is
>> not constant and reduces as energy is used. EV's and other devices
>> require constant voltage so a DC to DC or DC to AC converter is required.
>>
>> Like I said, this is all doable and Roger's statement would suggest he is
>> not an EE or doesn't understand that high voltage is what energy storage
>> in caps is all about. And yes it is lethal, just like any hydrocarbon
>> fuel. Likewise 250 vdc is just as lethal as 3,500 vdc. Ever played with a
>> microwave oven power supply?
>>
>> You just might be interested in what I do as it will explain why I have
>> been tracking this and other technology for some time now. And yes I do
>> know how to vet product releases but thanks for the tips.
>>
>> All the best,
>> Greg Watson
>> Green and Gold Energy
>> Adelaide, South Australia
>> +61 408 843 089
>> http://www.greenandgoldenergy.com.au
>> Online SunBall discussion group
>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sunball
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roderick Wilde"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 4:33 AM
>> Subject: Re: EEstor
>>
>>
>>>Greg, when I first hear of an exciting new product that sounds too good
>>>to be true I first go to Google and read up on the product which many
>>>times is just various articles based on press releases from the company.
>>>The second thing I do is then go to Google and type in the name of the
>>>product again and add the word scam behind it. Not that I think it is a
>>>scam, just so I can read opposing viewpoints. If there are an incredible
>>>amount of opposing viewpoints I start to wonder. I read many of these
>>>posts to help me form an opinion. I suggest that others use this same
>>>process when trying to discern the truth on new products. Here is just
>>>one post of many you may find of interest. It was posted on The Green Car
>>>Congress web site on 1/17/07 by Roger Pham.
>>>
>>>Roderick Wilde
>>>
>>>By Roger Pham
>>>
>>>"Ceramic capacitors are not known for their high energy storage capacity.
>>>Barium titanate has been used to make ceramic capacitors for quite
>>>sometimes, and has nowhere near the energy capacity as claimed by EEStor
>>>company.
>>>The claimed 52kwh capacity of the EEstor device having 31 farads is due
>>>to the 3,500 V maximum voltage rating. However, automotive power
>>>inverters and power transformers are typically designed to handle battery
>>>voltages from 250-500 volts. Since Energy Stored = 1/2 Capacitance x
>>>Voltage Squared, reducing the 3,500V down to a more reasonable 500V will
>>>reduce the storage capacity of the EEstor from 52kwh down to 1kwh.
>>>
>>>Otherwise, working with 3,500V in a personal vehicle is very lethal,
>>>especially in the event of an accident. High-voltage capacitors can
>>>explode violently upon aging of the dielectric material or other stresses
>>>that can lower the dielectric property of the material. In a chain
>>>reaction, the entire energy of this supercapacitor can be released as
>>>fast as a bomb explosion. If you wanna build a thick, thick bomb-proof
>>>casing to contain this 52kwh worth (~140lbs of TNT-equivalent) of energy
>>>that can be released in a flash, you will need a lot of carbon fiber
>>>layers that will be very heavy and costly. You might have better luck
>>>making a Compressed Hydrogen tank out of carbon-fiber reinforcement. H2
>>>by itself without O2 cannot combust. Structural weakness in the carbon
>>>fiber tank may allow the H2 to leak out at a fast rate, but it will not
>>>explode."
>>>
>>>Good luck, EEStor. Y'all will need every bit of it!
>>>
>>>----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg Watson"
>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: <[email protected]>
>>>Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 1:20 AM
>>>Subject: EEstor
>>>
>>>
>>>>http://www.marketwire.com/mw/release_html_b1?release_id=204515
>>>>
>>>>The first commercial application of the EESU is intended to be used in
>>>>electric vehicles under a technology agreement with ZENN Motors Company.
>>>>EEStor, Inc. remains on track to begin shipping production 15
>>>>kilowatt-hour Electrical Energy Storage Units (EESU) to ZENN Motor
>>>>Company in 2007 for use in their electric vehicles. The production EESU
>>>>for ZENN Motor Company will function to specification in operating
>>>>environments as sever as negative 20 to plus 65 degrees Celsius, will
>>>>weigh less than 100 pounds, and will have ability to be recharged in a
>>>>matter of minutes.
>>>>
>>>>Zap, Kapow Batman our offline energy storage problems are over,
>>>>Greg
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>--
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>>>>1/16/2007
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>17/01/2007 4:45 PM
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:25 PM 18/01/07 -0500, Darin wrote:
The challenge du jour for Project ForkenSwift (AKA Joe Sixpack Geo Metro)
relates to the potentiometer.
I had been hoping to reuse the potbox assembly removed from the donor
forklift. It's basically an industrial grade self-contained Curtis PB-6
unit, except it's got both high & low pedal microswitches.
The challenge is: the oddball golf cart Curtis motor controller I want to
play with requires a 3-wire 5-0k pot, and the pot in the forklift potbox
doesn't meet that description.
I was thinking of replacing just the pot from the forklift box. But I'd
specifically need one that matches its physical size and has a 45-50
degree total rotation (ie. I can't use a 20-0k pot and only use the last
1/4 of rotation). Is such a specification available out there? Are pot
sizes (physical) fairly standardized? (Suggestions where to look for one
would be appreciated.)
G'day Darin, and All
I had a similar problem on my forklift, and solved it by getting a 25k-ohm
wirewound potentiometer, and soldering a wire around the outer edge to the
zero and 100% throttle positions. In order to solder to the resistance wire
I had to wipe phosphoric acid onto the wire, and even then it was a pain
to solder to, but went OK. After I go the wire soldered on where it needed
to be, I washed the pot thoroughly with distilled water, re-lubed the shaft
and put the back back ont it.
Works fine. This was with a pot of about 1" diameter, IIRC it is 3 watt
rated, and came from a major electronics component supplier here in Australia.
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How much resistance has the pot from the Forklift?
I tought that PB-6 had standard a 5k pot.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Darin - MetroMPG.com
Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 8:25 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Potentiometer swap questions
The challenge du jour for Project ForkenSwift (AKA Joe Sixpack Geo
Metro) relates to the potentiometer.
I had been hoping to reuse the potbox assembly removed from the donor
forklift. It's basically an industrial grade self-contained Curtis PB-6
unit, except it's got both high & low pedal microswitches.
The challenge is: the oddball golf cart Curtis motor controller I want
to play with requires a 3-wire 5-0k pot, and the pot in the forklift
potbox doesn't meet that description.
I was thinking of replacing just the pot from the forklift box. But I'd
specifically need one that matches its physical size and has a 45-50
degree total rotation (ie. I can't use a 20-0k pot and only use the last
1/4 of rotation). Is such a specification available out there? Are pot
sizes (physical) fairly standardized? (Suggestions where to look for
one would be appreciated.)
thanks,
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Power goes up with the cube of velocity. However, you're covering more
miles per hour. So if aero drag alone is the only factor (it isn't),
the watt-hours per mile only go up with the square of velocity.
Danny
Anthony Nguyen wrote:
I just checked wikipedia, and the FORCE of air resistance increases
with velocity squared, while the POWER your motor must output to
overcome that force is related to velocity cubed.
Lock Hughes wrote:
I understood cubed, but love to be corrected
tks
L
--- Anthony Nguyen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
peekay wrote:
It's my understanding that the resistive force of the air increases
with the square of your speed ... so as speed increases, wind
resistance increases a lot more. So really, the optimal speed is
zero ;) -Anthony
assuming that air is still .. how does wind resistance
relate to ev speed ?
does it become double at double speed and triple at triple speed ?
or does it go up much more than that ?
brings up the obvious question .. what is the optimum speed
which will give the best mileage out of a full charge ?
(slow speeds may work out okay for many if it gives a much
longer range .. for speed buffs, range may not matter .. extreme
accelerations give the thrill !)
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
At speeds over 30 miles an hour wind resistance becomes a big
factor. You
would be doing well to go 30 or 40 miles at freeway speeds.
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day All
On Ebay I found a General Electric EV-1 SCR Control System Analyzer.
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/General-Electric-EV-1-SCR-Control-System-Analyzer_W0QQitemZ150081641241QQihZ005QQcategoryZ56998QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Price is higher than I'd be interested in paying, but does anyone know what
it does, what is it about the EV-1 does it analyse? (It would appear that
the two terminal blocks on the EV-1 get undone, and this goes in place of
them, and then the connectors plugged into it.)
Might be useful to someone.
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Myles,
It's doable, just as of today unusual. I suggest as it is EEstor's baby they
have the electronics worked out, so I will keep a lookout for a report once
someone gets a look inside.
But like all new technology they will not hold the high ground for long.
Greg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 12:03 PM
Subject: RE: EEstor
EEstor has been very tight lipped and getting info is like pulling hens
teeth. I tried several times and hit blank walls. That they have finally
done a PR with stats is interesting as they APPEAR to have done their
homework and they do realize how big the potential volume is.
The DC to DC converter will be interesting as it will need a very
wide input voltage range to get the 100% discharge claimed.
Are you sure?
With 3500v of stacked caps, the easy way would be to use 12 - 300v Input
Vicor DC-DC converters, and parallel the outputs thru a current sharing
arrangement.
Easy, that is, if the isolated outputs of the Vicors can handle up to
3500v
isolation...which, may not be easy.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.0/639 - Release Date: 18/01/2007
6:47 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
G'day All
Another find, I don't need it, but someone must!
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/AMP-METER-600-AMPS-DC-W-MATCING-BRASS-SHUNT_W0QQitemZ110079191501QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1502QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Hope it helps someone
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I finally got the controller out. And, I can definately say something is wrong
with it since I hear parts rattling around in there. I heard there are
something like 4 or 6 screws under some potting compount on the underside. I
located those. Supposedly, if I melt off the potting compound with a soldering
iron, I can get at those screws. But, I still don't see how it comes apart.
Can anyone shed some light on how to get that thing open?
Thanks,
Steve
---------------------------------
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Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel
bargains.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where oh where has the zeromow gone? I hunted for it online a few months ago
and now that I gutted my EV Lawn mower I went looking again. The only thing I
find is that it was going to be displayed at the 2006 mower convention of some
sort.
The electric ox pages seem to be gone too but that was really never an
alternative.
Looking for something for next season for my 1+ acre of lawn. Plugging in my
tractor to charge multiple times over two or more days to mow my lawn was
getting ridiculous. Two days if I did it on the weekend but more if I tried on
weeknights since i'd only get one mow in before dark. The drought did save me
from having to mow every single day to catch up. My transmission gave out and
it was rusting pretty bad so that put an end to the insanity and the issues my
wife had with the whole situation.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darin - MetroMPG.com writes:
>
> I had been hoping to reuse the potbox assembly removed from the donor
> forklift. It's basically an industrial grade self-contained Curtis PB-6
> unit, except it's got both high & low pedal microswitches.
>
> The challenge is: the oddball golf cart Curtis motor controller I want
> to play with requires a 3-wire 5-0k pot, and the pot in the forklift
> potbox doesn't meet that description.
Darin,
When I used a Zapi controller in my Prizm, it also needed a 3-wire pot.
I took the PB-6 apart, replaced the 2-wire cable with a 3-wire cable,
and soldered each wire to a log on the pot. The end lug that the wpier
was closest to at rest went to the ground connection, the other end lug
went to the positive connection, and the wiper lug went to the variable
connection.
In your case, you'll need to connect it 'backwards' to the controller,
so the wiper is near the high side of the pot at rest.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Frank John wrote:
T105 and T125 batteries... They're physically the same size, and it
would seem logical to me to choose 125's over 105's, as a small
increase in weight offers improved range (albeit with a price penalty).
But is the T125 more prone to failure than the T105?
The T-105 has less amphour capacity, higher internal resistance, and
longer life. It is the best choice for lowest cost per mile over the
battery's life, and for vehicles that draw fairly low currents.
The T-125 has more capacity, lower internal resistance, but shorter
cycle life. It is a better choice if you need/want more range, or will
be drawing higher currents (driving faster, accellerating faster, etc.)
The tradeoff is a higher cost per mile, since they will wear out earlier.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
Wouldn't this be a case where splitting the pack and providing the
power for the emeter from the low end would be a straightforward
solution? Would the emeter draw enough power to unbalance the pack?
Yes, you can power the E-meter from a tap on the pack. You should tap it
at about the 24v point, because it draws less current as its supply
voltage is increased.
Yes, this will unbalance the pack, as the batteries powering the E-meter
will discharge more than the rest. This mainly matters when the vehicle
is parked a long time, because the E-meter draws power continuously.
This is a quick and dirty solution; not a good one.
Another thought would be to use full pack voltage with a resistor
to drop it down to the voltage required for the emeter power supply.
I would think the current needed by the emeter would be negligible.
How much do these things draw?
The E-meter draws from 25ma to 150ma, depending on how many of its LEDs
are lit and its supply voltage (must be 10.5-40vdc). You will have
trouble picking a resistor that keeps the E-meter voltage within this
range. A low enough resistance to maintain 10.5v at 150ma, will go over
40v when the E-meter goes into "sleep" mode and draws 25ma.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brandon Kruger wrote:
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I have decided to opt towards
the WarP motor, Zilla controller and T-145 batteries. That's
pushed my estimated cost to $10,250.
The maximum current you want to draw with T-145 batteries is rather low
-- on the order of 250 amps for 10-15 seconds, or 500 amps for a second
or two. If you draw more than this, you shorten their life appreciably.
Because of this, the smaller 600am Zilla would be a good choice. That
will save you a little money.
I think I'll still try talking to Duke energy and maybe Trojan
about funding (got nothing to lose). If they won't provide any
funding, I might look into that raffle/fundraiser idea...
Here's an idea. Print your own money! :-)
I grew up in SW Michigan, where fruit farming is big. It's a tough
business; most farmers are barely scraping by. About 15 years ago, one
farmer couldn't get enough bank loans to finance his farm. He hit on the
idea of printing his own "money" with denominations in Apples rather
than Dollars (One Apple, One Basket of Apples, One Bushel of Apples, etc.)
They were basically promissory notes that could be redeemed in the fall.
"Fred Farmer agrees to pay bearer X Apples upon demand, redeemable at my
farm between Sept 1 and Dec 1." He sold them to friends, relatives,
restaurants, groceries, and just people in general. It worked! It
provided enough capital to fund his farm for the year. In the fall at
harvest, he redeemed most of the notes. But many people kept them as
souvenirs!
For EVs... how about calling it an anti-gasoline currency? People who
give you money get your promissory note to *not* burn X gallons of
gasoline, by building and driving an electric car. They get to feel good
about doing something about the oil crisis without actually changing
their own life style. Kind of like the energy credits and pollution
rebates that companies are trading around.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bob and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: EEstor Freedom's an' Sunrises.
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 02:58:51 -0500
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:49 PM
>Subject: RE: EEstor
>
>
>> Exactly.
>> As long as EEstor concentrates on what they do best
>> (the capacitive energy storage and its issues)
>> while others tackle the issues surrounding the
>> application (High Voltage controller, HV charger, etc)
>> then we can see interesting results soonest.
I wish EEstore could work like they say but just not
likely. The electronics was built, offered by Solectria
several yrs ago for Maxwell's 'Ultra-cap' systems, Azure may
still have it when they bought Solectria.
But one doesn't need all that batt capacity if you
build a low drag glider, the key to cost effective EV's, not
super batteries though they would be nice. Just on $550/kw
SAFT Ni-cads a Sunrise would get a 200 mile range, 150+ mile
in any weather and they are known to last 20+ yrs when used
as designed. Lee's version of the Sunrise should get 150+
mile range on lead.
So instead of throwing money at costly high tech EV
batts, drives, let's throw some at making lighter, more aero
EV gliders!!! Much more bang for the buck.
>>
>> Imagine a Sunrise with a 300 lb 50 kWh energy pack.
>> 500 miles range easily.
>> What was the problem with EVs again?
>
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Imagine a Sunrise...... Period! We're working on it. The
>body we had at Jerry's has been transported by Lee Hart an'
>I to St. Cloud MN to a Auto Fab shop, where it will morph
>into a mould so we can grow more.
I'm so glad to see it taking shape and thanks to you,
Lee from all of us for doing it. Now if some others can help
Lee like you have, we can get it going much faster ;^D
Brainstorming engineering
>on it sorta lead us to a RW drive, 9" motor, about 5 to one
>gearbox, top speed , maybe 70-80 That's fast enough! I'm
>sure I can feel John Wayland cringe, when I said that, but
>go ahead stuff a Trans-Warp motor in it to blow off the
>Zombie?Front, of last thoughts, would be a engineered bolt
>on thing sorta like you can just BUY from a speed shop.
>Mustang, style or have a speed shop make us one?Breaking
>free of the weight bond of conversions, we may not have a
>lead sled!?And, of course the new crop of batteries, as
>above. But we are thinking of Led Acids, to get you
>started. With Sunrise's EV-1 like CD It SHOULD do nicely
>with garden verity golf cart badd-eries.Following in the
>success of the designed to be an EV- Freedom, we should be
>able to start mass marketing??
>
> So, come to BBB and see the Freedom roll out? Jerry? Got
>yur ears on? How's it look?
The Freedom EV is doing better every day. I'm still
on body work, trying to make it look really good, prepping
for painting. It's basicly going to be a rolling glider at
the BBB, with the electrics still to be installed. The EV
part is well known, the glider is the break thru part.
Only the lower forward strut is needed to complete
the front suspension. I'll be starting to build the rear
suspension today amoung other things. Weather has been
great, in the 70's, even 80's most days here in Tampa.
>
> Back to Sunrise, Lee has the concept that folks that
>build kit planes, ya buy the bits and pieces, as you can
>afford, and assemble it. Maybe a tuitorial factory visit
>toi be shown how easy it is to put together. I think WE
>will be putting a hell of a lot of them together,at the
>factory, so you can plug an' play,no, Play an'
>Plug<g>!right off the auto transporter. Not EVerybody wants
>to build his own.
Many kitcar companies just use 2 companies, one to
build the kit, another to assemble it on contract for the
owner. Though just having the owner put in the motor, batts
should satisfy the FEDs as kitcars have done that for yrs,
everything but the motor-trans.
Other posts questions,
I don't have new pics as I'm waiting to get it
painted.
Here is the group addresses asked for to build your
own long range 3wh EV.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> As that Other Guy(MLK) said a few years ago; "I have a
>Dream" Me too.Streets filled with the happy hum of traction
>motors. But we'll need help. But when we have more to show,
>I'll be on here, hat in hand.
>
> Seeya at BBB?
I'll probably just be there for Sat and Sunday, not
Friday.
The fog is burning off so time to go sand, putty,
sand, putty, sand, putty!!!
Anyone who knows about sourcing airbags please e
mail me off list. I need some side curtain airbags, sensors.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Zeromow will have a new name but continues to cut grass all over North
America.
Stay tuned and I promise I will post to the list as soon as legal
obligations allow.
We have our fingers crossed but I think you will be seeing alot of them
available.
Shawn Lawless
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 8:06 AM
Subject: ZeroMow Electric Lawn Mower?
Where oh where has the zeromow gone? I hunted for it online a few
months ago and
now that I gutted my EV Lawn mower I went looking again. The only thing
I find
is that it was going to be displayed at the 2006 mower convention of
some sort.
The electric ox pages seem to be gone too but that was really never an
alternative.
Looking for something for next season for my 1+ acre of lawn. Plugging
in my
tractor to charge multiple times over two or more days to mow my lawn
was
getting ridiculous. Two days if I did it on the weekend but more if I
tried on
weeknights since i'd only get one mow in before dark. The drought did
save me
from having to mow every single day to catch up. My transmission gave
out and it
was rusting pretty bad so that put an end to the insanity and the
issues my wife
had with the whole situation.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Massey wrote:
I had a similar problem on my forklift, and solved it by getting a
25k-ohm wirewound potentiometer, and soldering a wire around the outer
edge to the zero and 100% throttle positions.
Neat idea - hadn't considered moving the 3rd wire location.
The forklift uses a 3-wire 20k (I think) pot, but it was set up to work
as if it were approximately 6-0k with the 0 and 100% ends of the
resistor connected with a jumper wire.
I cut the jumper (because I need all 3 wires). The result is now the
amount of rotation in the 5-0k range is too small - roughly 25 degrees -
which would make for an too-sensitive throttle pedal, and it's no longer
coordinated with the microswitches at the "high" and "low" positions.
I could optionally find a pot with a lower than 20k rating and modify it
so the 5-0k rotation range is the right size.
Ralph Merwin wrote:
> When I used a Zapi controller in my Prizm, it also needed a 3-wire pot.
> I took the PB-6 apart, replaced the 2-wire cable with a 3-wire cable,
> and soldered each wire to a log on the pot.
So the PB-6 uses a 3-terminal pot, with one terminal left unused? If
that's the case that could work. The PB-5/6 pot has the same range of
rotation as the forklift pot. And I know they're available as
replacement parts.
Thanks for the replies.
Darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
brian baumel wrote:
does anyone have a suggestion for a affordable BMS? or
is there a free blue print floating around out there
that I can construct my own for <200?
I'm running a string of 10 12V gel's.....
The most affordable BMS is a human being, a meter, and a charger! :-)
You just measure each battery's voltage, compare them, and if any are
low, charge them a little bit with a small separate charger. Depending
on how much you drive, and how good your batteries are, you may have to
do this monthly, weekly, or daily! Obviously, this gets to be tedious.
The next step up is to add ways to make this process easier. It could be
a single connector or terminal block in a central location, with wires
to each battery. It could be a rotary switch and voltmeter. It could be
a separate little meter or bargraph per battery, so you can read them
without connectors or switches.
Next step up is to automate it somehow. The crudest automatic system is
my zener-lamp regulator. It's a couple zener diodes and a light bulb
across each 12v battery. If the voltage gets too high, the zeners
conduct, the lamp lights, and it bypasses charging current to push the
batteries toward balance. These are $5-$10 per battery.
From there, it all depends on how fancy you want to get. Rich Rudman
sells regulators for about $40/battery that can bypass more current,
provide indications of over- and under-voltage batteries,
over-temperature, etc.
My Battery Balancer is an elaborate system that uses a microcomputer to
monitor every battery, and charge it as needed to keep them all in
balance. It will cost you around $1000, and is open source (see it at
http://www.geocities.com/sorefeets/balancerland/intro.htm
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was told this was a program issue not hardware. I just bought a new
choice- some are out there in some stock rooms
On Jan 18, 2007, at 9:10 PM, Brian M. Sutin wrote:
may be but it only reads to 500A- the "choice" model reads up to 1kA
I bet that is another simple change that the user can make.
I will ask them as soon as I have a Link-10 to destroy.
Brian
Alfa Romeo Electric Conversion
http://www.skewray.com/alfa
--
Brian M. Sutin, Ph.D. Space System Engineering and Optical Design
Skewray Research/316 W Green St/Claremont CA 91711 USA/(909) 621-3122
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can you explain the difference between the two controllers that you have for
this car. I am interested in learning a bit more. So when you have time...
Thanks,
Brian
On Thu Jan 18 22:10 , Joe Smalley sent:
>Been there.
>Done that.
>Yes, it substantially reduces the wear on the brakes.
>Yes, it reduced the net energy requirement from 3% to 8% on my commute.
>Yes, I have the car for sale for $1500.
>Yes, I can install the regen controller if you want it re-installed.
>Yes, I used a compound wound motor.
>No, the regen current through the series winding is not a serious problem.
>Yes, the series field makes the regen 'softer' and less violent.
>Yes, that is an advantage if you accidentally get too aggressive on the
>regen knob.
>
>Joe Smalley
>Rural Kitsap County WA
>Fiesta 48 volts
>NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [email protected]>
>Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 9:33 AM
>Subject: compound motors and regnerative braking
>
>
>> As I was thinking of motors, I was interested in the compound motor. I
>understand that it combines the advantages of both the series and shunt
>motors. Does it regenerative braking like a shunt? If so, can you make use
>of it, if you are only using the standard series motor controllers? Or do
>you need a special controller to have this ability? I am interested in
>having regenerative braking in my ev, but know it is hard with series
>motors. I am not so interested in the ability of it in the aspect of
>increase in range. I am more interested in not making the brakes work to
>hard, and not wasting energy in the form of heat. I appreciate comments.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Brian
>> ---- Msg sent via USU WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
>>
---- Msg sent via USU WebMail - http://webmail.usu.edu/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
If a purpose-built converter set had a fixed transformer ratio, had
bidirectional capability (needed for regen anyway), and had all their
outputs paralleled, they should be able to be paralleled without any
feedback whatsoever. This isn't necessarily the optimal configuration,
and "seriesing" off-the-shelf products isn't wise.
I agree; using many "normal" converters in series is possible, but not
wise. It's really not that hard to build 3500v converters. You can't use
modern MOSFETs and IGBTs, but SCRs will work.
I don't think dealing with 3500V would be so difficult, despite being
an immense shock hazard. It seems that they must be able to make the
dielectric thinner (or such) to achieve the same result at 350V or so?
It may be that the dielectric strength (volts/meter) of their material
is so high that it's impractical to fabricate thin enough layers to work
for lower voltages.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
