EV Digest 6321
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Xantrex Link-10 with RS-232 Discontinued
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EEstor
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Opening the Curtis 1212B
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EEstor Freedom's an' Sunrises.
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: where to start .. optimum speed for wind resistance
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: where to start .. optimum speed for wind resistance
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: where to start .. foward to the past ..
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Optimum speed
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Hello, I'm new
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Fwd: where to start .. optimum speed for wind resistance
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Conversion costs never change?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Xantrex Link-10 with RS-232 Discontinued
by "Garret Maki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Garden tractor question or DC/AC yet again
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Yuasa 160-6 EN Gel Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) RE: where to start .. optimum speed for wind resistance
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: EEstor Freedom's an' Sunrises.
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Sourcing airbags for Freedom EV? was: EEstor Freedom's an' Sunris
es .
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Garden tractor question or DC/AC yet again
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: where to start .. optimum speed for wind resistance
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Introduction, Advice Sought
by "BC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: wind resistance ( was where to start )
by Rachael Myers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Opening the Curtis 1212B
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Charging while driving [JGS-EV]
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Solectria Sunrise coefficient of drag?
by "Darin - MetroMPG.com" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Introduction, Advice Sought
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Hello, I'm new
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: More info RE: Using a 500A shunt with a 1200A controller.
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Garret Maki wrote:
The connector is there for the alarm signal and manual specifically says
that it is not a field upgradeable option to add the alarm. Is it just
there and working, or does a jumper need to be soldered in somewhere for
it to work?
What he means is that the PC board is the same for all units; Xantrex
just leaves off the parts for the RS-232 and alarm outputs. These are
surface-mount boards, so it isn't easy to add these parts -- but is is
possible if you are good at it!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1/19/07, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Arthur W. Matteson wrote:
> If a purpose-built converter set had a fixed transformer ratio, had
> bidirectional capability (needed for regen anyway), and had all their
> outputs paralleled, they should be able to be paralleled without any
> feedback whatsoever. This isn't necessarily the optimal configuration,
> and "seriesing" off-the-shelf products isn't wise.
I agree; using many "normal" converters in series is possible, but not
wise. It's really not that hard to build 3500v converters. You can't use
modern MOSFETs and IGBTs, but SCRs will work.
Last time this came up I had a quick search and found IGBTs that might
be suitable:
"The new 4.5KV devices have Vce(sat) = 3.3V@ 125 degrees centigrade"
http://www.pwrx.com/pages/newsflash/press_release.asp?file=270%2Ehtm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Powers wrote:
Can anyone shed some light on how to get that thing open?
1. Put it in an oven at about 160 deg.F. This softens the potting
material so it is easy to remove.
2. Dig the potting compound out of the holes on the bottom.
You'll find screws underneath. Remove these screws.
3. While it's still hot, slide a big bolt through the buss bars.
Use a pair of claw hammers to pry each end of this bolt up
away from the case. The potting compound will break free around
the edge, and the entire "innards" will slide out of the case.
It shouldn't take much force. If it does, you missed a screw
or didn't get it hot enough.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice wrote:
Hi EVerybody;
Imagine a Sunrise...... Period! We're working on it.
-------------------------------------
As a newbie to the list I am not familiar with the Sunrise. Where can
I find pictures and specs?
John in Sylmar, CA PV EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don mentioned:
> At speeds of 30 miles an hour and less the wind resistance is not
> much of a
> factor. I have found 25 to 30 miles per hour really increases
> your range.
> More energy from the batteries and less wind resistance.
Yup. Electric cars of the mid-teens had top speeds in the 22-30mph range
and had claimed ranges of 75-90miles on a charge, carrying roughly 12-15kwh
of PbA or NiFe.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i guess a real life experience is much more of a guide
than theoretical arguments ..
if upto an upper limit of 20mph, 30mph or 40mph the
resistance of still air is marginally different ..
AND
if at the upper limit of 50/60/70/80mph it becomes
drastic and very huge
THEN
it would be proper to design for upper limits of 40mph
speed only ..
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> At speeds of 30 miles an hour and less the wind resistance is not much of
a
> factor. I have found 25 to 30 miles per hour really increases your range.
> More energy from the batteries and less wind resistance.
>
> Every once in a while I would have to do this to get home with an old
> battery pack. It is not a lot of fun but it surprising how far you can go.
>
> Don
___________________________________________________________
Try the all-new Yahoo! Mail. "The New Version is radically easier to use" The
Wall Street Journal
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
80 years ago ! .. THAT's an EV for sure !
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Yeah, like they did 80 years ago with the Milburn Light Electric:
> Milburn's rollout battery cart:
http://www.milburn.us/docs/27_instr-08.jpg
> Recent pic of a pair Milburn battery boxes:
>
http://home.comcast.net/~matwete/ev/ron_milburn_1918_02b_batteryboxes_orig.j
> pg
___________________________________________________________
Inbox full of spam? Get leading spam protection and 1GB storage with All New
Yahoo! Mail. http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have observed that my conversion (1981 Jet Electrica - Ford Escort)
seems to draw less
current in 2nd gear at about 35-38 mph.
I assume that speed will give me the greatest range.
John in Sylmar, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Traditional?
Email list servers predate the widespread acceptance of the internet, so
one could argue that they are the "Most Traditional" format available.
In fact the EVDL extends back to before the widespread use of the
internet. This is probably why it is in it's current format, there are
numerous advantages to keeping it traditional and few advantageous to
"modernizing" it.
People have tried several times to start new "modern" versions that they
feel are better than the current format. They have all basically failed
to catch on.
So I'd say the EVDL is the way it is BECAUSE of tradition.
> Hello everyone,
> I just joined to ev-listserv, in hopes of learning a few things before
> attempting to build my own vehicle.
> So I'll be lurking around, and might even post something if I feel the
> need.
> Just out of curiousity, why don't we have a more traditional internet
> forum?
>
> -Anthony
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends on what you're designing......
If a NEV then by law the top speed is limited.
If a conversion, then it depends upon your needs.... if you will use it on
highways, top speed should be at least 80 or more. It is then up to the
operator to limit his use of power for best range if so desired. BUT, creating
a slug on purpose is just plain unsafe, sometimes you simply need more power
and/or more speed.
For example, I could putter along at 40mph on my commute saving lots of energy
vs 60mph. But what happens when I come to a farm tractor pulling a honey-wagon
full of cowshit at 30mph. My choice is to slow down and follow him until he
turns off all the while breathing in the wonderful scent of highly concentrated
organic methane OR attempt to pass him. If I knew I was limited to only 40mph
top speed, which implies it will take quite some time to get to 40, then I will
need quite a large gap in oncoming traffic in order to safely pass. I would
much rather be in a vehicle that can get me to 80 or 100 in a hurry, get past
this guy, then using my own responsible restraint slow back down to 40 and
continue my journey in a energy conserving mode.
Just my opinion....
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of peekay
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 11:33 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: where to start .. optimum speed for wind resistance
i guess a real life experience is much more of a guide
than theoretical arguments ..
if upto an upper limit of 20mph, 30mph or 40mph the
resistance of still air is marginally different ..
AND
if at the upper limit of 50/60/70/80mph it becomes
drastic and very huge
THEN
it would be proper to design for upper limits of 40mph
speed only ..
..peekay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I think looking for reduced cost in EV conversions is possible but
not in the DC EV conversions. Though once the economy way to convert,
I fear that it doesn't lend itself to that next step of mass
production for economies of scale.
Then why are almost all golf carts, forklifts, and other commercially
successful EVs using DC systems and lead-acid batteries?
Perhaps it will work this way...
<dreammode>
The price on lithium-ion or lithium polymer drops to the point where
8K gets you a 25KWh pack that weights 500lbs
New methods of construction in cars get you a 4 door glider that
weighs 1000lbs
Higher voltage and lower current motors and controllers means
lighter motors, lighter wires.
Standardization of interfaces allows many manufacturers to make
compatible components, makeing them a commodity.
Now 25Kwh may actually get you 150mile range.
</dreammode>
<reality mode>
Lead-acid batteries have the lowest cost per mile of anything you can
actually get. (Yes, nicads are better if you get them surplus; nimh are
better if anyone actually sold them; and lithiums might be better
someday, but not now).
DC traction motors are already being built at 100 times the rate of AC
traction motors, so they already cost less. They've been around so long
that there are endless opportunities on the used and surplus market.
DC motor controllers are already in mass production, unlike AC
controllers which are still very expensive, specialty products.
So, the real question is what can we do with the technology that we have
right now, today? WITHOUT waiting for unobtainium batteries or quantum
leap technological advances?
We need someone to step up to the plate and start a modern Automotive
industry modeled more like the computer industry than the existing
auto industry.
Yes! A paradigm shift. Start over with a blank sheet of paper. And I
think it can be done! This is the reason I took on the Sunrise project!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Lee
Now I just need to figure out how to get into the case, and what
components. I have an RS-232 model and one without, but what I really
want is one with the alarm output so I've no idea how to find out what
components are needed. I've done surface-mount mods before so I'm ok
with a few parts that way.
Does anyone have a schematic or know what the mod is to add the alarm
function? I want to us it to shut off my charger for my current BB600
Nicad motorcycle project.
-Garret
What he means is that the PC board is the same for all units; Xantrex
just leaves off the parts for the RS-232 and alarm outputs. These are
surface-mount boards, so it isn't easy to add these parts -- but is is
possible if you are good at it!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Albright wrote:
I'm wanting to build a garden tractor for various jobs around my place.
One of its jobs will be to provide a roving AC power supply, thus
requiring an inverter. Many of the donors I'm finding have a
hydrostatic transmission, which would seem to need only a contactor,
not a controller.
You'd want a little more than just a single contactor. It would be very
hard on the contactor to switch directly from "off" to full pack
voltage. As a minimum, use two contactors and a resistor. Energize the
first contactor, and it starts the motor with the resistor in series.
Energize the second contactor, and it shorts the resistor for full speed.
With the hydrostatic transmission, you'd want to use a PM or shunt
motor, which naturally runs at a more-or-less constant speed. A series
motor would tend to over-speed at light load, and slow down too much
under a heavy load.
In light of these conditions, is there any advantage to use AC motors
(both traction and implement) rather than DC? It would seem that at
a minimum, the switching would be a lot easier/cheaper. Motors may
also be more readily available.
It would be an interesting experiment. You can certainly get a several
horsepower AC motor that would run it; but it is likely to be 3-phase
and 240vac. That will require a very expensive inverter to run off a
low-voltage pack.
Or, you can use an industrial 3-phase controller that requires a high DC
pack voltage like 300vdc. Now you need a lot of batteries, and will have
safety and charging problems.
These issues can all be solved, with money and experience. But the path
of least resistance is to use the DC motor.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello, does anyone have any experience of these cells, or any similar gel
cells.
They're 6V rated at
160AHr 10Hr to 1.85vpc
129AHr 3Hr to 1.8vpc
105AHr 1Hr to 1.75vpc
63 Wh/L
26 Wh/Kg
35Kg
max discharge 960A
S.C. current 1500Amps
305x210x236mm
More details here _http://www.yuasa-battery.co.uk/industrial/enandenl.html_
(http://www.yuasa-battery.co.uk/industrial/enandenl.html)
What I would like to know is if anyone has any experience of them, or could
someone perhaps suggest how they would hold up in an EV with a 40-80A nominal
demand, and short peaks of 300Amps
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just wanted to add *ambient wind* to this thread. My EV has the worst
possible aero - stand up kick scoot with power-assist. EVen though max
speed under power is only 20kph or so, I have encountered head winds
that have brought the 350w vehicle to a standstill.
Just/finally got my nextgen scooter motor - 600w hub with solid
"spokes" in 16" wheel, and am leaning towards rotomolding a monocoque
"frame" in HDPE. Think kidney bean shape, hollow for motor, cargo, etc.
Still a standup and kick-able, but hopefully the leading bean-shaped
edge will improve the aero.
Don't forget, there'll be trips with strong headwinds (hopefully round
trips... with strong tail winds too! :)
tks
Lock
Toronto
human-electric hybrid pedestrian
--- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Don mentioned:
> > At speeds of 30 miles an hour and less the wind resistance is not
> > much of a
> > factor. I have found 25 to 30 miles per hour really increases
> > your range.
> > More energy from the batteries and less wind resistance.
>
> Yup. Electric cars of the mid-teens had top speeds in the 22-30mph
> range
> and had claimed ranges of 75-90miles on a charge, carrying roughly
> 12-15kwh
> of PbA or NiFe.
>
> -Myles
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Google "Sunrise EV" and you find:
http://www.evuk.co.uk/hotwires/rawstuff/art24.html
and you see the aero-optimized shape best on:
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=305
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of JS
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 8:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EEstor Freedom's an' Sunrises.
Bob Rice wrote:
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Imagine a Sunrise...... Period! We're working on it.
-------------------------------------
As a newbie to the list I am not familiar with the Sunrise. Where can
I find pictures and specs?
John in Sylmar, CA PV EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry wrote:
> Anyone who knows about sourcing airbags please e-
> mail me off list. I need some side curtain airbags, sensors.
Since this was at the bottom of a long message, it is worth
to send it separately to get more response.
Please respond to Jerry, jerryd (at) ij (dot) net
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of jerryd
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 6:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: EEstor Freedom's an' Sunrises .
Hi Bob and All,
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: EEstor Freedom's an' Sunrises.
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2007 02:58:51 -0500
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <[email protected]>
>Sent: Thursday, January 18, 2007 11:49 PM
>Subject: RE: EEstor
>
>
>> Exactly.
>> As long as EEstor concentrates on what they do best
>> (the capacitive energy storage and its issues)
>> while others tackle the issues surrounding the
>> application (High Voltage controller, HV charger, etc)
>> then we can see interesting results soonest.
I wish EEstore could work like they say but just not
likely. The electronics was built, offered by Solectria
several yrs ago for Maxwell's 'Ultra-cap' systems, Azure may
still have it when they bought Solectria.
But one doesn't need all that batt capacity if you
build a low drag glider, the key to cost effective EV's, not
super batteries though they would be nice. Just on $550/kw
SAFT Ni-cads a Sunrise would get a 200 mile range, 150+ mile
in any weather and they are known to last 20+ yrs when used
as designed. Lee's version of the Sunrise should get 150+
mile range on lead.
So instead of throwing money at costly high tech EV
batts, drives, let's throw some at making lighter, more aero
EV gliders!!! Much more bang for the buck.
>>
>> Imagine a Sunrise with a 300 lb 50 kWh energy pack.
>> 500 miles range easily.
>> What was the problem with EVs again?
>
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Imagine a Sunrise...... Period! We're working on it. The
>body we had at Jerry's has been transported by Lee Hart an'
>I to St. Cloud MN to a Auto Fab shop, where it will morph
>into a mould so we can grow more.
I'm so glad to see it taking shape and thanks to you,
Lee from all of us for doing it. Now if some others can help
Lee like you have, we can get it going much faster ;^D
Brainstorming engineering
>on it sorta lead us to a RW drive, 9" motor, about 5 to one
>gearbox, top speed , maybe 70-80 That's fast enough! I'm
>sure I can feel John Wayland cringe, when I said that, but
>go ahead stuff a Trans-Warp motor in it to blow off the
>Zombie?Front, of last thoughts, would be a engineered bolt
>on thing sorta like you can just BUY from a speed shop.
>Mustang, style or have a speed shop make us one?Breaking
>free of the weight bond of conversions, we may not have a
>lead sled!?And, of course the new crop of batteries, as
>above. But we are thinking of Led Acids, to get you
>started. With Sunrise's EV-1 like CD It SHOULD do nicely
>with garden verity golf cart badd-eries.Following in the
>success of the designed to be an EV- Freedom, we should be
>able to start mass marketing??
>
> So, come to BBB and see the Freedom roll out? Jerry? Got
>yur ears on? How's it look?
The Freedom EV is doing better every day. I'm still
on body work, trying to make it look really good, prepping
for painting. It's basicly going to be a rolling glider at
the BBB, with the electrics still to be installed. The EV
part is well known, the glider is the break thru part.
Only the lower forward strut is needed to complete
the front suspension. I'll be starting to build the rear
suspension today amoung other things. Weather has been
great, in the 70's, even 80's most days here in Tampa.
>
> Back to Sunrise, Lee has the concept that folks that
>build kit planes, ya buy the bits and pieces, as you can
>afford, and assemble it. Maybe a tuitorial factory visit
>toi be shown how easy it is to put together. I think WE
>will be putting a hell of a lot of them together,at the
>factory, so you can plug an' play,no, Play an'
>Plug<g>!right off the auto transporter. Not EVerybody wants
>to build his own.
Many kitcar companies just use 2 companies, one to
build the kit, another to assemble it on contract for the
owner. Though just having the owner put in the motor, batts
should satisfy the FEDs as kitcars have done that for yrs,
everything but the motor-trans.
Other posts questions,
I don't have new pics as I'm waiting to get it
painted.
Here is the group addresses asked for to build your
own long range 3wh EV.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> As that Other Guy(MLK) said a few years ago; "I have a
>Dream" Me too.Streets filled with the happy hum of traction
>motors. But we'll need help. But when we have more to show,
>I'll be on here, hat in hand.
>
> Seeya at BBB?
I'll probably just be there for Sat and Sunday, not
Friday.
The fog is burning off so time to go sand, putty,
sand, putty, sand, putty!!!
Anyone who knows about sourcing airbags please e
mail me off list. I need some side curtain airbags, sensors.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ken;
Just a thought here. The Electrac offered years ago a great little motor
genny set-36 volts DC in 120 volts AC out. I think they can still be found?
It is better than a solid state inverter because it will "Pick up" a heavy
load, whereas the solid state thing just "Weaps out"on a heavy starting
current. I am restoring a E 12 with an Altrax and junked the Battery charge
up front and bolted the M_G set to the back of the front aluminum "Radiater"
of the E trac. Plenty of room. So I have a portable power source for running
stuff during power outrages and when I want some 120 volts somewhere out in
the yard.Not traveling far from home so the Lester " Boat Anchor" Golf Cart
charger can just stay ashore in the garage.
Anybody ELSE have scene or have one of those cool MG sets?Ask around on
the Electrac List.
Seeya at BBB?
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 1:02 PM
Subject: Re: Garden tractor question or DC/AC yet again
> Ken Albright wrote:
> > I'm wanting to build a garden tractor for various jobs around my place.
> > One of its jobs will be to provide a roving AC power supply, thus
> > requiring an inverter. Many of the donors I'm finding have a
> > hydrostatic transmission, which would seem to need only a contactor,
> > not a controller.
>
> You'd want a little more than just a single contactor. It would be very
> hard on the contactor to switch directly from "off" to full pack
> voltage. As a minimum, use two contactors and a resistor. Energize the
> first contactor, and it starts the motor with the resistor in series.
> Energize the second contactor, and it shorts the resistor for full speed.
>
> With the hydrostatic transmission, you'd want to use a PM or shunt
> motor, which naturally runs at a more-or-less constant speed. A series
> motor would tend to over-speed at light load, and slow down too much
> under a heavy load.
>
> > In light of these conditions, is there any advantage to use AC motors
> > (both traction and implement) rather than DC? It would seem that at
> > a minimum, the switching would be a lot easier/cheaper. Motors may
> > also be more readily available.
>
> It would be an interesting experiment. You can certainly get a several
> horsepower AC motor that would run it; but it is likely to be 3-phase
> and 240vac. That will require a very expensive inverter to run off a
> low-voltage pack.
>
> Or, you can use an industrial 3-phase controller that requires a high DC
> pack voltage like 300vdc. Now you need a lot of batteries, and will have
> safety and charging problems.
>
> These issues can all be solved, with money and experience. But the path
> of least resistance is to use the DC motor.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.0/639 - Release Date: 1/18/07
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 1:08 PM
Subject: RE: where to start .. optimum speed for wind resistance
> Just wanted to add *ambient wind* to this thread. My EV has the worst
> possible aero - stand up kick scoot with power-assist. EVen though max
> speed under power is only 20kph or so, I have encountered head winds
> that have brought the 350w vehicle to a standstill.
>
> Just/finally got my nextgen scooter motor - 600w hub with solid
> "spokes" in 16" wheel, and am leaning towards rotomolding a monocoque
> "frame" in HDPE. Think kidney bean shape, hollow for motor, cargo, etc.
> Still a standup and kick-able, but hopefully the leading bean-shaped
> edge will improve the aero.
>
> Don't forget, there'll be trips with strong headwinds (hopefully round
> trips... with strong tail winds too! :)
>
> tks
> Lock
> Toronto
> human-electric hybrid pedestrian
>
> --- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Don mentioned:
> > > At speeds of 30 miles an hour and less the wind resistance is not
> > > much of a
> > > factor. I have found 25 to 30 miles per hour really increases
> > > your range.
> > > More energy from the batteries and less wind resistance.
> >
> > Yup. Electric cars of the mid-teens had top speeds in the 22-30mph
> > range
> > and had claimed ranges of 75-90miles on a charge, carrying roughly
> > 12-15kwh
> > of PbA or NiFe.
> >
> > -Myles
> >
> > Hi EVerybody;
Would be interesting to compare todaze crop of conversions against the
old E cars. Ours, driven at "Teens" I mean TIME frame, not Teen drivers
,speeds. Probably could have gone over 100 miles in the Rabbit at 20-30 mph,
1st gear ?Zombie and Meenie could do darn near as far, and the lost,
lamented Red Beastie? Hell! It would be going STILL!But you couldn't do I- 5
at 20-30 MPH, go the coastal; road, more scenic, anyhow?Too bad we HAVE to
go so fast, just to keep up.
Seeya at BBB
Bob
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.0/639 - Release Date: 1/18/07
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been a member for quite a few months now. I'm dreaming that when the
weather gets warmer I'll actually have time to work on a project. In the
meantime if I find an EV near me for sale... well that would be a bonus.
My first question is where I can get some "nearly hands on" experience. I
live in Delaware. Does anyone know where I can find an EV group close to
meet and physically see, touch, and feel an EV?
I've already gone the Biodiesel and WVO route, and although I enjoy it an EV
just seems simpler. I am averaging less than 50 miles per day... and on a
busy day I still seem to travel less than 60 miles. However I have a need
to seat 3 people as I may be shuffling family here and there.
My current thinking is to convert a Blazer (might be hard to find manual) a
Geo Tracker, Honda CRX, or similar. I figure a light SUV framed type
vehicle would be better in the long run than a sedan. But I really want to
drive an EV because I don't understand all the hubbub about shifting.
Batteries will probably be 12V flooded. I'm thinking 144v, but who knows.
Is shifting really different than an ICE? Is my car choice going to be too
heavy for my needs? Is there a Philly or Baltimore EV Club?
TIA,
Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
assuming that air is still .. how does wind resistance
relate to ev speed ?
does it become double at double speed and triple at triple speed ?
or does it go up much more than that ?
brings up the obvious question .. what is the optimum speed
which will give the best mileage out of a full charge ?
(slow speeds may work out okay for many if it gives a much
longer range .. for speed buffs, range may not matter .. extreme
accelerations give the thrill !)
Okay this much I DO remember from physics if I remember
correctly. The wind resistance can be looked at as a force,
or in other words energy applied in a given direction.
energy = mass times velocity squared so as your speed goes two times
the wind resistance goes up four times, as it goes up three times,
the wind resistance is 9 times greater. so hot windless days are best
from a purely wind resistance point of view because the have
no additional speed of their own ( just the speed of collision
from the car impacting the air ) and because hot air is less dense
then cold air so there are fewer particles colliding
with the vehicle as it goes down the road. . . does that sound right to
you all??
Rachael
..peekay
---------------------------------
TV dinner still cooling?
Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> 1. Put it in an oven at about 160 deg.F. This softens the potting
> material so it is easy to remove.
>
> 2. Dig the potting compound out of the holes on the bottom.
> You'll find screws underneath. Remove these screws.
One word of caution; the 1221 I repaired for a friend had rubber plugs
installed over the screws in the baseplate. There may have been a layer
of potting over the plugs, I don't recall now. I'm also uncertain at
the moment if this was a 'B' or the newer 'C' model.
> 3. While it's still hot, slide a big bolt through the buss bars.
> Use a pair of claw hammers to pry each end of this bolt up
> away from the case. The potting compound will break free around
> the edge, and the entire "innards" will slide out of the case.
> It shouldn't take much force. If it does, you missed a screw
> or didn't get it hot enough.
Or, just use an x-acto knife to cut the potting around the edge of the
endplate. There is a thin layer of potting to seal the unit, and behind
that is a plastic/foam sheet that keeps the potting from running inside
the controller before it sets.
Good luck!
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
Dave, I'm asking because I want to compare the situation to running an
alternator off the tailshaft of a traction motor. Just trying to
understand why an alternator alone couldn't supply enough energy on
average.
An alternator has no problem supplying power without a battery. The
problem is with its voltage regulator. They use the cheapest possible
regulator, which just *barely* works even with a battery.
Without a battery, the voltage is correct on average, but it bounces all
over the place as the load changes. It momentarily dips to just a few
volts if the load suddenly increases (like when you turn on the
headlights); the clock loses the time, the radio loses its presets, the
engine computer loses power and resets, etc. And when you remove a heavy
load, the voltage momentarily increases (called a "load dump"), which
can burn out light bulbs or wreck electronics.
If you want to run an alternator without a battery, you need to add a
BIG filter capacitor to smooth out these load variations. And, you'll
want to add a big surge suppressor to prevent voltage surges if some
large 12v load is suddenly disconnected.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just looking at a photo of the Sunrise, it's obvious that it has above
average aerodynamics, but I haven't found an actual figure for the car's
coefficient of drag.
Does anyone know what it is? (And can you point to a reference?)
thanks.
Darin
---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Google "Sunrise EV" and you find:
http://www.evuk.co.uk/hotwires/rawstuff/art24.html
and you see the aero-optimized shape best on:
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=305
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bill;
Check out the DC EV Clubs, DC EAA is a very active chapter with alota EV's
to meet in person. There IS a Philly group, too. Delaware? Maybe, go to the
Electric Auto Assoc. site, google it, will take ya right there. Funny ya
asked, bought a Rabbit Electric a few years ago out of Willmington, DE. Did
I take the last EV OUT of W'ton?Time to replace!
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "BC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 1:35 PM
Subject: Introduction, Advice Sought
> I've been a member for quite a few months now. I'm dreaming that when the
> weather gets warmer I'll actually have time to work on a project. In the
> meantime if I find an EV near me for sale... well that would be a bonus.
>
> My first question is where I can get some "nearly hands on" experience. I
> live in Delaware. Does anyone know where I can find an EV group close to
> meet and physically see, touch, and feel an EV?
>
> I've already gone the Biodiesel and WVO route, and although I enjoy it an
EV
> just seems simpler.
You're seeing the "light!" Biodiseasel is nice, but a lot of work, and
you STILL have the damn ICE to live with.
I am averaging less than 50 miles per day... and on a
> busy day I still seem to travel less than 60 miles. However I have a need
> to seat 3 people as I may be shuffling family here and there.
>
> My current thinking is to convert a Blazer (might be hard to find manual)
a
> Geo Tracker, Honda CRX, or similar. I figure a light SUV framed type
> vehicle would be better in the long run than a sedan. But I really want
to
> drive an EV because I don't understand all the hubbub about shifting.
> Batteries will probably be 12V flooded. I'm thinking 144v, but who knows.
>
> Is shifting really different than an ICE? Is my car choice going to be
too
> heavy for my needs? Is there a Philly or Baltimore EV Club?
> You have the right idea thoughts. I think a sedan might go further than
a boxy Blazer, but if you don't have to go 70MPH everywhere a Blazer could
do ya, at secondary road speeds?
Seeya
Bob
> TIA,
> Bill
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.410 / Virus Database: 268.17.0/639 - Release Date: 1/18/07
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anthony,
As you can tell, some people just like the email list way of doing things.
There are a number of people who use dial-up and or don't want to deal with
a web interface for various reasons. This question comes up often, and
there have been several attempts, but without much luck.
We actually just finished a discussion of this titled "BBS?". Check the
yahoo archives http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive for the
discussion, and all will be revealed.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
---------------------------------------------------
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong
man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit
belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by
dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short
again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming,
but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself
for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high
achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while
daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid
souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." - Teddy Roosevelt
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: January 19, 2007 9:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hello, I'm new
Traditional?
Email list servers predate the widespread acceptance of the internet, so one
could argue that they are the "Most Traditional" format available.
In fact the EVDL extends back to before the widespread use of the internet.
This is probably why it is in it's current format, there are numerous
advantages to keeping it traditional and few advantageous to "modernizing"
it.
People have tried several times to start new "modern" versions that they
feel are better than the current format. They have all basically failed to
catch on.
So I'd say the EVDL is the way it is BECAUSE of tradition.
> Hello everyone,
> I just joined to ev-listserv, in hopes of learning a few things before
> attempting to build my own vehicle.
> So I'll be lurking around, and might even post something if I feel the
> need.
> Just out of curiousity, why don't we have a more traditional internet
> forum?
>
> -Anthony
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic junk
at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I wish
with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
> I forgot to mention that this is with an _E-meter_.
> That is my only instrumentation, and as such, I am
> most often following volts, not current draws.
Ah, you're in the same boat as I, except that I most often watch current
rather than voltage ;^>
> I also neglected to mention that first gear draws seem
> to cause low voltage readings more often than when I
> do _hills_, and also than when I'm in _second_ gear
> (which is where I drive most often, of course).
This might correlate with drawing higher battery current.
Your controller is not going to ever pull 1200A on the battery side
except just as you come out of current limit, which isn't going to
happen until the motor is spinning relatively fast. So, even though 1st
gear gives the motor more mechanical advantage, it may allow it to spin
up such that the battery side current is nearer to the motor current.
However, I'd have expected the battery side current to be relatively
similar between 1st or 2nd under similar driving conditions (incline,
speed), since the power required to move the vehicle should remain
similar; it is the motor current I'd expect to see varying...
> > No, not very likely. The controller is unlikely to
> > have been drawing 1200A from the batteries for very
> > long at all, and if it ever did so for long enough
> > that you would see the voltage sag, you would also
> > have seen your 500A ammeter pegged.
>
> But the E-meter is only getting an average sample.
No, not true. The E-Meter takes *many* samples per second; if it didn't
it would do a much poorer job of tracking energy consumption due to the
way that the current in an EV varies so widely and rapidly in real world
driving.
The display is updated at a slower rate, but if the load persists long
enough for you to see the voltage display respond, then it has persisted
long enough that you would see the current display respond also. Flip
the display over to current and see what your peak currents are under
the same conditions as you have been seeing the excessive voltage sag.
I think the bottom line here is that you don't need to replace your
shunt, but if you are losing sleep over potentially "abusing" it, then
what you need to replace it with is a *beefier* 500A/50mV (or
1000A/100mV) shunt that can tolerate the occasional excursion out to
1200A without overheating. Your E-Meter can't display currents over
511A, so your only other option would be to install a 1000A/50mV shunt
which would scale the current by 1/2 (i.e. the meter would read 500A
when the real current is 1000A), but this would mess with your fuel
guaging settings since the meter would base its calculations on 1/2 of
the actual current going in/out fo the pack. I would suggest keeping
your 500A/50mV shunt until such time as you have reason to believe that
it has shifted in value sufficiently that your meter is not reading
current accurately, which probably won't happen, but if it does, then
replace the shunt with a 1000A/100mV model so your meter readings remain
1:1. In reality, your battery current will likely hit 1200A so
infrequently and for such brief durations that your shunt and fuel
guaging will never be bothered.
The other part of the bottom line is that your voltage sag is due to
cold batteries, but of course, the greater the battery current you hit
the cold batteries with, the greater the sag will be. Anything you can
do (current limit, gear choice, heaviness of right foot, etc.) to limit
the peak battery current will help reduce the sag, and as the batteries
return to more normal temperatures you will see the sag decrease to more
familiar levels. The nice thing with your DCP controller is that you
can turn the current limit down to protect the batteries without giving
up much (if any) of the low speed torque associated with the 1200A
controller rating (since the adjustment limits battery rather than motor
current).
I wouldn't be particularly concerned about the greater battery sag
you're seeing, as long as you verify that you aren't subjecting the
batteries to significantly higher current than with the 600A controller
(if your driving style hasn't changed, the battery current probably
hasn't either). Our normal concern with low battery voltage is that it
indicates that the pack is nearing empty and we amy be in danger of
reversing a cell, however, if the sag is due to a cold pack having
higher than usual internal resistance, then there is no danger of
reversing a cell since the pack is actually still relatively full.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
