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------_=_NextPart_001_01C74082.644CE0B0"
Subject: Three-wheeling in California
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 05:11:54 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Thread-Topic: Three-wheeling in California
Thread-Index: AcdAgmKqFbCbYJwSQJmzu5gnLJmEFQ==
From: "Randy Burleson--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Dmitri" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights? (efficient heating)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:30:41 -0500
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Hmm, a Peltier heater maybe?
What about using an AC in reverse? Would that work? Why doesn't anybody use
that, since they are more efficient than Peltiers, and provide cooling as
well.
How much more efficient would that be, compared to just resistive heating?
Anybody know?
----- Original Message -----
From: "nikki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:07 AM
Subject: Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights?
>
> Now if you were asking about power efficient heating I'd really want
> it! I've got two 400W heaters in the el and the power drain is so
> large with both on (800W) that when I step on the accelerator the
> second 400W coil is turned off to prevent huge current drain on the
> batteries. Which means I only stay toastie warm in traffic....
>
> Nikki.
>
>
>
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Subject: RE: LED, HID, and other conservative lights? (efficient heating)
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 08:37:28 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Peltier junctions work well but to get the amount of heat needed would
require 15 or 20 of them. Each pulls about 5 amps of current so they
are not good for a heater.
Running AC in reverse would not generate heat. A heat pump of a house
always runs in forward. What happens is there is a special valve inside
the system that runs the fluid through the system backwards. But when
used for heat the system will ice up on the outside so the valve needs
to run in AC mode 20 seconds for every 5 minutes of heat run time to
defrost itself. It kind of freaks you out when you hear your Heat Pump
groan and shoot a steam plume out each cycle. I thought mine was broken
until I learned how the system worked. I believe the Toyota Prius uses
a heat pump system. You might be able to get a good article of
operation on one online.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dmitri
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 8:31
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights? (efficient
heating)
Hmm, a Peltier heater maybe?
What about using an AC in reverse? Would that work? Why doesn't anybody
use that, since they are more efficient than Peltiers, and provide
cooling as well.
How much more efficient would that be, compared to just resistive
heating?
Anybody know?
----- Original Message -----
From: "nikki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:07 AM
Subject: Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights?
>
> Now if you were asking about power efficient heating I'd really want
> it! I've got two 400W heaters in the el and the power drain is so
> large with both on (800W) that when I step on the accelerator the
> second 400W coil is turned off to prevent huge current drain on the
> batteries. Which means I only stay toastie warm in traffic....
>
> Nikki.
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:27:03 -0800 (PST)
From: xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: LED, HID, and other conservative lights? (efficient heating)
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Didn't the EV1 use a heat pump? I thought some
production EV did use one.
John
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:24:14 -0800 (PST)
From: xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Electric "Jeep", Is this project feasable?
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> First of all I am not the one to be advising you
> on battery types that far
> exceed the cost of the conversion. Most of my
> customers can not afford them
> so I have not gotten involved with them yet.
I don't know if I can afford them either, but I'm also
not sure if this vehicle will perform as I want
without them.
> We used a single 9" Advanced DC motor in the Land
> Rover.
I've seen others say a 9" didn't give them enough
torque for a heavy vehicle. Did the 9 seem like
enough or was it sluggish? If you had to compromise
would you get a bigger motor first or a bigger
controller? I guess it would be easier to add a
larger controller later than to attach a larger motor.
Which battery setup did you like the best?
> I still find it bizarre that after
> more than ten years no
> one else has discovered the ultimate thrill of
> electric four wheeling.
You're probably familiar with this and I don't know if
he takes it off road but this guy has done a Cherokee
EV:
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/home.php
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/589
Looking at his specs I doubt I can get my desired
range without expensive battery technology :(
Thanks for your time.
John
____________________________________________________________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
http://new.mail.yahoo.com
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Water cooled AC Motor question...
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:22:46 -0500
Mime-Version: 1.0
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For those of you who are running water cooled AC Motors, does the water
circulating
through the motor get hot enough to be used for heating the vehicle?
Instead of having to take apart the dash and find a replacement heater, the
heated
water could circulate though the current heater and be used for heating.
It wouldn't be much different than a normal car where it takes a few minutes
of
driving before the water heats up enough to provide any cooling.
Just a thought.
_________________________________________________________________
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:40:54 -0700
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Hello John,
You could contact George F. Hamstra at Net-Gain, [EMAIL PROTECTED] for
data on different combinations of Warp motors per type of vehicle
specifications.
If you tell him what type of vehicle, weight, transmission gear ratios,
differential gear ratio, type of tires, the controllers you want to use,
battery types, he will work up a spread sheet on the type of motor or motor
systems that would work best for you.
The spread sheet will list type of motor, rpm, best speed of vehicle for
maximum efficiency in each gear, motor amperes, battery amperes, etc.
He work up one for me, which said, that a Warp 11 would be best if I was at
or above the 50 mph speeds. A Warp 9 efficiency peaks out at about 3000 rpm
or is about 33 mph for me. A Warp 11 would provide double the torque at 1/2
the rpm of a Warp 9.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 11:09 AM
Subject: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
> Okay, for a Heavy Truck
> For UVE's calc, Non-aero small truck, 36 sq ft frontal area.
> Using a 2007 (not likely!) F250 SuperCab LongBed, 5.4L V8. 5856 lb base
> weight.
> (I've been having trouble finding this kind of info on older models.)
>
> Starting out with a Z2K and Dual 11" motors would be nice, but is awfully
> expensive, and there is a hefty lead time. ($4500 + 2 * $2950) = $10,400.
> I was thinking of a 240V pack using 6V golf cart batteries.
>
> We've been discussing alternate configurations using some Curtis 1221C
> controllers.
> Curtis 1221C + ADC L91-4003, $975 + $840. Thats 400A (max, I know, derate
> for continuous) at 120V.
>
> One suggestion was to use ADC X91-4001 motors for $855 instead.
> Hmm, but the KTA page shows those as lower HP both peak and continuous?
> It also shows the L91's as having dual shafts?
>
> So, sticking with the L91's for now.
> I was thinking of a configuration of 2 Curtis 1221C's, each with it's own
> motor. That's not enough power for accelerating such a heavy vehicle
> though.
> So, add a pair of L91's using a simple contactor controller.
> Say, configure the battery pack as a 120V pack of buddy pairs. (same
> amount of battery as the 240V pack)
> Then when you need "turbo boost" acceleration, you use contactors to put
> the 2 boost motors in series or parallel on the pack. Gives you 2 boost
> speeds, and keeps the pack balanced.
>
> Cost here is (2 * 975) + (4 * 840) = $5310 about 1/2 the cost of the (MUCH
> NICER) Z2K setup.
> Advantages: All parts available quickly, even if something fails, you can
> continue driving with less power.
> Disadvantages: Complexity, Jerky boost acceleration, still may not be good
> acceleration.
>
> Now, as an added refinement/complexity, if you want to prevent motor
> over-heating while cruising at speed, you could use Yet More contactors to
> switch the boost motors to be paralleled with the curtis motors. (and no,
> they would NOT also be directly connected to the pack at that time,
> sheesh.) This would result in each Curtis controller driving 2 paralleled
> motors. Hopefully the same overall power, but distributed over 2 motors
> to improve cooling.
>
> Another variation would be to replace the pair of Curtis controllers with
> a Z1K-HV.
> Advantage: Higher current capability, better controller, automatic S/P
> switching.
> Disadvantage: $600 more, and you are back to the very long lead time (if
> available at all).
>
> Of course, once you switch to a single controller, using a FB1-4001A at
> $1485 is cheaper than a pair of L91's.
>
> But a Z1K with S/P switching of a pair of FB1-4001A's may not have enough
> accel?
> Cost = $2550 + (2 * 1485) = $5520.
> So is similar to the original dual Curtis setup with 4 motors, but you
> loose the "turbo boost" option.
>
> I'm just trying to see all the options. Moving this heavy a truck is a
> non-trivial exercise.
>
>
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:00:31 EST
Subject: Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
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In a message dated 1/25/2007 1:27:55 AM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
FWIW I looked at one house here about 6 years ago that still had Knob and
Tubing wiring. That one was definitely out because that is one thing the
VA definitely cares about. They don't care about service panel size (at
least not around here) but you can NOT get a VA loan on a house with knob
and tubing.
No problem in Colorado Springs..... I live in a house that was built in 1888
(and wired by Nicholas Tesla while he lived here, some people joke) We
added a two story addition about ten years ago - so, when one walks from the
living room to the kitchen; they transition from 1888 to 1998! The inspector
did
not care.... The old part of the house is on ONE 20 amp breaker located in
the new part! Only has three outlets in five rooms. I tapped into the exposes
wires to add an outlet on the porch, which is where I plug in the EV Three
wheeler. I have heard from a number of folks that knob and tube wiring is
quite safe as the exposed wires can radiate heat away in the case of
overload.... When I purchased the place, in 1978 ( for $15,000) the realitor
told me the
VA would not help because of the gravity floor furnace (VERY effecient!),
not the wiring....
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:05:25 EST
Subject: Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights?
To: [email protected]
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Are most of you using LED lights to minimize electrical draw, or just
working with whatever came in your glider?
I am not aware of LED headlamps that are adequate for an EV that could go
50 MPH or higher! My three wheeler has a pair of LED "halogen replacements"
fitting into a home-made headlamp shell but those are more to let folks know I
am out there rather than to illuminate the road. With a top speed of 30
MPH, and all the miles done on street light lit city streets, they are
adequate.
I would be VERY affraid to take this sort of lighting on the freeway!
Matt Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
BMW m/c-Golf Cart trike - 48 volts, 30mph on the flat, 35 mile range
1972 VW Van - to be converted this year!
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Subject: RE: Water cooled AC Motor question...
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:40:35 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
In many of the posts I see on here I believe the temperature coming out
of the Zilla was about 104 degrees. I don't think that would be enough
heat for a heater.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Joe Plumer
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:23
To: [email protected]
Subject: Water cooled AC Motor question...
For those of you who are running water cooled AC Motors, does the water
circulating through the motor get hot enough to be used for heating the
vehicle?
Instead of having to take apart the dash and find a replacement heater,
the heated water could circulate though the current heater and be used
for heating.
It wouldn't be much different than a normal car where it takes a few
minutes of driving before the water heats up enough to provide any
cooling.
Just a thought.
_________________________________________________________________
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Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:20:48 -0500
From: Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
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I second that. It's very common and simple to get the leaf springs
beefed up in an S10. Any good suspension place can do it.
--
Martin K
jerryd wrote:
> If so an S/E10 could easily do for you. Just by changing the
> rear axle, or maybe just helper springs depending on your
> payload needs, stock axle will increase your payload to
> whatever you want. S10 wreckers use probably 5 ton rear
> axles.
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:23:36 -0500
From: Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: OT - State of the Union Message
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I heard him say something about plug-in hybrids. Like we can't do that
today with a plug-in Prius?
My girlfriend mentioned this to me. So I went to the evalbum and showed
her 980-some vehicles that can be "plugged in and driven the first 10
miles (or more) on electricity alone" WOW - advanced science requiring
billions in research.
--
Martin K
Matthew Milliron wrote:
>
> Did anyone, besides myself, hear President Bush spout the General
> Motors, party line? "We need Government Moneys so we can develop
> battery technology." I believe that they will get their play money. I
> do not believe they will make an electric car.
>
> R. Matt Milliron
> 1981 Jet Electrica
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
> My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
> electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
>
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:37:50 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Monitor Design
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Danny Miller wrote:
> Can't a transorb/MOV on the charger provide decent protection against
> this kind of spike?
Yes, if put in the right place. But be aware that a transorb or MOV
works by absorbing the energy in the transients. If the transients are
big, they get hot. They also wear out over time when there are
transients on a regular basis. To be UL listed, they are designed to
fail OPEN so they don't explode or cause a fire. This means old
transorbs or MOVs could be useless and you won't know it.
During a lightning strike somewhere along the power lines, whatever is
the weakest link is likely to try to absorb *all* the energy, and fail
(often catastrophically -- BANG!) Normal household wiring is good for
about 6000 volts; so if your charger's breakdown is higher than this,
then the weakest link will be somewhere else.
> Actually the problem is a differential between the pack and frame. Now
> if the charger is a "bad boy" but with an inductor, light bulb, or some
> sort of current limiting element, then I don't see how you'd develop
> 1000V from + to - on a 10x 12V series of batts. The batts should clamp
> the voltage.
Right; the voltage spikes *both* AC lines at the same time above ground.
> I don't know how common this is though.
This is the normal type of transient due to lightning-induced events.
In comparison, transients caused by switching some big load on/off
across the line cause large voltage spikes *between* the hot and neutral
wires. Batteries are relatively good at clamping these.
> Now I do understand the shock, leakage, and shorting issues leading to
> the floating pack and motor design. It'd be nice to have a transorb/MOV
> between the pack and frame but do these ever fail by conducting when
> they shouldn't?
Not if they have been built to pass UL testing. UL requires that they
fail open, and not shorted. That why you don't see zener diodes used in
this type of service; they fail shorted.
> Wouldn't it still be an all-around idea to have a nonisolated charger
> with transorbs/MOVs from pack to ground to protect against these line
> spikes when charging? It won't protect against my static charge while
> driving/getting out of the seat theoretical prob, but it should be
> strong line protection.
Overall, an MOV is probably a good idea. It just barely conducts
(microamps) below its threshold, which won't produce any detectable
shock hazard, but it will bleed off static charges and prevent
"floating" pack from causing instrumentation errors.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 15:50:21 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Monitor Design
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Rich Rudman wrote:
> I have never lost BMS equipment or Regs to a line spike.
> I make and use NON isolated chargers.. many a day.
> Nope never had a spike kill anything.
But, your BMS equipment and regs don't have any ground connections, and
don't tie to the chassis or grounded 12v system. What would they break
down *to*?
> I suppose if you want lightning proof equipment, then you might want
> to use 3000 or 5000 volt parts... But that's quite a bit of overkill.
Not really. Pretty much all consumer equipment is designed to survive at
least some level of this. 1250vac for one minute hipot is almost
universal, and 3000vac is very common. Expensive or important equipment
is designed for more, so it won't be the "weakest link" that gets taken
out first in the event of a lightning strike.
> Out on your battery pack there better NOT be any real spikes, since
> you have a few farads of water filled Caps called Batteries to soak
> up anything that gets through the chargers.
Mostly true. They suppress slow transients very well, but are
ineffective for microsecond-risetime events. That's why we need
capacitors across the controller input!
> Keep in mind that NO protection of any kind will last for years.
Only if you are lucky, and never get "hit". Driving around with no seat
belts will work for years, too -- until you get hit.
> Properley designed Spike tolerant equipment will last for decades.
> And you pay for that.
Right! You don't need protection if you make it yourself, for your own
use, and it's no big deal if it breaks. But prudent design for products
that you sell should be built to higher standards.
Rich, do you hipot test your equipment? To what level?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 05:50:52 -0800
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Battery Monitor Design
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Lee Hart wrote:
...
> Most propulsion packs are not ground referenced (i.e. not grounded;
> floating). This means a voltmeter connected between ground and any
> propulsion battery shows essentially no voltage, because there is no
> path for current to flow between them.
In OEM designs propulsion pack circuitry is isolated from the logic
portion but is connected to the common via 500k-2M resistor (about 2W
power) at one point. This effectively preserves isolation but does not
allow propulsion pack potential to "float away" from the rest of the
circuit. It is not terribly good reference connection for the voltage
measurements, especially if cheap (low input impedance) voltmeters
are used to check what is the voltage between either end (or anywhere
in the middle) of the pack and the vehicle ground, but it's not the
purpose of such connection.
...
> I don't understand the reason for using 1-10 Mbit networking for a
> system that measures battery voltages every half second or so. It seems
> like a fast network just makes it more expensive and susceptible to noise.
If you measure battery voltage once every half second - indeed
no reason. In fact there is no reason to use CAN networks just for this.
But if you measure for instance voltages and temperatures for each of
124 LiP cells the pack consists of, have to transfer all that data
every half second for processing and also have to send data back to the
cell modules to balance them, it is different matter.
In modern cars it is rare to have dedicated CAN bus for just one
purpose. Because of broadcast nature of CAN usually common bus gets
loaded with independent subsystems, so the CAN traffic may require
high bandwidth. With very slow bus electrical noise immunity is lower
because more aggressive filtering is allowed, however bus load increases
leading to too many retransmissions of lower priority frames.
More than 30% is considered quite loaded CAN bus. If you analyze
can traffic you will see that you have less delays if you have
high speed bus and allow quick retransmitting corrupted (due to the
noise) messages than if you have slow and relatively error free bus.
Finally, I wanted to mention - typically today you'd have about 30 kbps
CAN/LIN bus for HMI interfaces (locks, dome lights, seats, climate,
mirrors, radio, etc), 125 to 500 kbps for the bulk of engine/body
controls and 25Mbps
for airbags / suspension dynamics sensors. If those cars would be
in EV form, they would not slow down buses for such subsystems.
Noise errors are successfully dealt with on the system level by
redundancy and other error correction means (in addition to
shielding, filtering, noise canceling techniques etc. on the hardware
level).
These systems are sure complex, but it is not designed to be
complex. Engineers try to make it simpler and outcome is usually
as simple as possible given *very* demanding requirements to be
satisfied demanded by safety agencies, insurance companies, customers
etc. Far more complex topic than just engineering decision to pick
10Mbps CAN transceiver vs. 20Mbps one.
Victor
--
'91 ACRX - something different
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:22:05 -0500
From: Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Water cooled AC Motor question...
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
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It might be enough to warm up the seats a little (directly heated seats)
but you're right there probably just isn't enough excess heat to warm
anything significantly.
--
Martin K
Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> In many of the posts I see on here I believe the temperature coming out
> of the Zilla was about 104 degrees. I don't think that would be enough
> heat for a heater.
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:50:33 -0600
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: LRR Tires and Vehicle Weight
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Brian M. Sutin wrote:
> Isn't rolling resistance supposed to be proportional to vehicle weight?
> Reducing weight should go in the same proportion as the tire rolling
> coefficient for low speeds.
No; "resistance" is the ratio of force to weight. A typical tire has a
rolling resistance of 0.01. That means it takes 1 pound to roll it for
every 100 lbs of weight on it.
Adding weight doesn't change the resistance, but it does change the
force needed to move the vehicle. For example, a 3000 lbs vehicle takes
30 lbs to push. Adding 1000 lbs makes it take 40 lbs to push, but the
rolling resistance remains the same (assuming you correct inflation
pressure for the load).
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:45:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Bryan Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: New EVer, New EV
To: [email protected]
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First, I'd like to thank all of the regularly posting members for your time and
knowledge. I've been reading the list for awhile and trying to absorb all of
the information that I can.
My name is Bryan and I'm a senior Aerospace Engineering student in Prescott,
AZ. I recently purchased a newly converted 1971 VW Beetle and the school has
generously allocated resources for some modifications to the car under the
Electrical Engineering department.
The car as delivered: '71 Super Beetle, 9 Energizer GC8 batteries (6 behind
the back seat, 3 in the front), Alltrax 72V controller, 10hp motor (D&D),
Schumacher 10 amp charger, auxiliary battery with no DC-DC converter (yet).
From a mechanical perspective, the car needs some work (brakes are being fully
replaced with four wheel disc, new shocks, etc) but that is in progress now (or
at least the parts are in my living room waiting for the garage at school to be
emptied).
The purpose of the project (and yes, I know a few of you are going to have a
serious problem with this, but it is what it is) is to build an optional
generator trailer for the vehicle. I plan on driving the vehicle around the
country this coming summer hiking, camping, etc before I get stuck in a lab for
the next five years in grad school (at which point I'll put the trailer away
and go back to pure EV). I have an old concrete mixer trailer that we've
rehabilitated and are modifying for the project and we're currently working on
the CAD models to do aerodynamic testing of the vehicle/trailer combinations to
decide on the proper composite fairings. That's the easy part for me though.
I have a hundred questions but I'll try and minimize them for now.
The trailer will have a traditional gas generator on it that provides 8kw
continuous. For those of you that speak of tuning the engines for the most
efficient (or minimal toxicity), I would love to know how someone might go
about doing that. Otherwise, it's a brand new generac engine that will be run
stock.
1) My battery pack is 72V nominal. I've heard two different opinions (both
from electrical engineers) regarding the charging of the batteries (bypassing
the Schumacher). The essential question is: If power is constant going into
the batteries, does the peak voltage matter from a battery health perspective?
I was originally planning on a transformer/rectifier configuration that would
provide a fairly clean DC signal from the trailer at the cost of the weight and
cost of the the transformer. I'm confident this would work, however. An
alternate design has been suggested that eliminates the transformer by using
thyristors for the rectifier diodes. A controlling circuit would adjust the
phase angle (delay) for the configured power. In other words, the rectified
signal would have the beginning portion of each half sine wave eliminated in
order to adjust for the power (and therefore average voltage) required. This
would save weight and money but I don't know if the chemistr!
y of flooded PbA will be happy with short intermittent bursts of almost twice
their nominal voltage even if the time average of the voltage is correct.
Right now the plan is to have the auxiliary power come into a bus bar parallel
with the battery pack which then feeds the controller. If the spiking voltage
is not battery friendly, is it possible to use diodes to isolate the batteries
from the auxiliary source (while letting them both feed the controller in
parallel) and use a larger charger fed from the AC generator source for the
batteries? Can a charger be used while the car is under operation and the
batteries are being intermittently discharged?
2) Now for some easy questions. I've been getting data from the Alltrax and it
brought up the question about when you see ratings for the controller (amperage
limits) are those battery amps or motor amps?
3) I've looked high and low and can't find specs on the EGC8 batteries (from
Sams Club website, Energizer website, or Johnson Controls) as well as the D&D
motor. The motor is 10hp cont, 40hp peak but what are the time limits for what
level?
That should be enough to spark some discussion. I look forward to getting
feedback from the experienced in the group.
Bryan Taylor
____________________________________________________________________________________
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Subject: RE: New EVer, New EV
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 11:02:00 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
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Bryan,
I like your design but I do have a concern about the trailer. You said
you were going to use an 8K generator. Are you planning on just using
it to charge the pack when not in use or are you planning on having the
generator run the DC of the car while you are driving it? If it is the
latter I believe your generator is waaaay under rated for the load it
will have to supply. With a 72V system and a 10 horse motor I think
your current draw will be well over 200 amps at cruise. I could be
wrong but I know the lower the system voltage the higher the current to
do the same amount of work. You might be better off having a pusher
trailer to get you to and from for long distances and have the 8K
generator hooked to the pusher to charge your pack at the same time.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bryan Taylor
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 10:46
To: [email protected]
Subject: New EVer, New EV
First, I'd like to thank all of the regularly posting members for your
time and knowledge. I've been reading the list for awhile and trying to
absorb all of the information that I can.
My name is Bryan and I'm a senior Aerospace Engineering student in
Prescott, AZ. I recently purchased a newly converted 1971 VW Beetle and
the school has generously allocated resources for some modifications to
the car under the Electrical Engineering department.
The car as delivered: '71 Super Beetle, 9 Energizer GC8 batteries (6
behind the back seat, 3 in the front), Alltrax 72V controller, 10hp
motor (D&D), Schumacher 10 amp charger, auxiliary battery with no DC-DC
converter (yet). From a mechanical perspective, the car needs some work
(brakes are being fully replaced with four wheel disc, new shocks, etc)
but that is in progress now (or at least the parts are in my living room
waiting for the garage at school to be emptied).
The purpose of the project (and yes, I know a few of you are going to
have a serious problem with this, but it is what it is) is to build an
optional generator trailer for the vehicle. I plan on driving the
vehicle around the country this coming summer hiking, camping, etc
before I get stuck in a lab for the next five years in grad school (at
which point I'll put the trailer away and go back to pure EV). I have
an old concrete mixer trailer that we've rehabilitated and are modifying
for the project and we're currently working on the CAD models to do
aerodynamic testing of the vehicle/trailer combinations to decide on the
proper composite fairings. That's the easy part for me though.
I have a hundred questions but I'll try and minimize them for now.
The trailer will have a traditional gas generator on it that provides
8kw continuous. For those of you that speak of tuning the engines for
the most efficient (or minimal toxicity), I would love to know how
someone might go about doing that. Otherwise, it's a brand new generac
engine that will be run stock.
1) My battery pack is 72V nominal. I've heard two different opinions
(both from electrical engineers) regarding the charging of the batteries
(bypassing the Schumacher). The essential question is: If power is
constant going into the batteries, does the peak voltage matter from a
battery health perspective? I was originally planning on a
transformer/rectifier configuration that would provide a fairly clean DC
signal from the trailer at the cost of the weight and cost of the the
transformer. I'm confident this would work, however. An alternate
design has been suggested that eliminates the transformer by using
thyristors for the rectifier diodes. A controlling circuit would adjust
the phase angle (delay) for the configured power. In other words, the
rectified signal would have the beginning portion of each half sine wave
eliminated in order to adjust for the power (and therefore average
voltage) required. This would save weight and money but I don't know if
the chemistr!
y of flooded PbA will be happy with short intermittent bursts of almost
twice their nominal voltage even if the time average of the voltage is
correct. Right now the plan is to have the auxiliary power come into a
bus bar parallel with the battery pack which then feeds the controller.
If the spiking voltage is not battery friendly, is it possible to use
diodes to isolate the batteries from the auxiliary source (while letting
them both feed the controller in parallel) and use a larger charger fed
from the AC generator source for the batteries? Can a charger be used
while the car is under operation and the batteries are being
intermittently discharged?
2) Now for some easy questions. I've been getting data from the Alltrax
and it brought up the question about when you see ratings for the
controller (amperage limits) are those battery amps or motor amps?
3) I've looked high and low and can't find specs on the EGC8 batteries
(from Sams Club website, Energizer website, or Johnson Controls) as well
as the D&D motor. The motor is 10hp cont, 40hp peak but what are the
time limits for what level?
That should be enough to spark some discussion. I look forward to
getting feedback from the experienced in the group.
Bryan Taylor
________________________________________________________________________
____________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time with the Yahoo! Search movie
showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
From: Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights?
To: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 07:38:21 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Randy Burleson writes:
>
> Are most of you using LED lights to minimize electrical draw, or just
> working with whatever came in your glider? Retro-reflective tape only
> goes so far -- we all need turn signals and such?
I use the stock lighting system. I doubt that LED headlights are legal
yet.
I checked the lighting current draw this morning. It takes about one
amp from the pack (per the E-Meter) to run my lights. For a 30 minute
commute, this translates into about 0.5AH. This is lost in the noise
for the approximately 30AH needed for the trip...
Do you run your 12v system off a small battery or a DC/DC converter?
Ralph
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Toyota vs GM
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:07:24 +0000
Mime-Version: 1.0
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>If it does, I don't know about you, but I'll be celebrating. I'm not too
>concerned with whether it's Toyota, GM, Nissan, Ford, or for that matter
>General Electric or Zenn or Phoenix which makes it happen, just as long as
> >someone< does.
I'm with you on this. One of the reasons I drive a Honda Insight instead of
an EV is because I could walk into a dealership, pick out my color and drive
away with it.
Even now with my oldest son coming up on 16 I'm torn between putting in the
tremendous time and resources it takes to convert a small truck to an EV or
going out and buying my wife that new Prius we've been wanting to get
forever, and letting him drive her car...
Having converted a motorcycle which is much easier than an entire car, I
know just how badly you have to want an EV in order to build one, and then
quite frankly, you usually come away with a vehicle with some real
limitations.
damon
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Subject: FW: Three-wheeling in California
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 09:37:24 -0800
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Randy Burleson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
My research indicates that 3-wheelers in California are
regulated as motorcycles... which looks to be one of the last few
less-regulated niches available for highway-capable vehicles. I'm likely
to work from a front-wheel drive auto glider, such as a Geo Metro, for
ease of initial implementation and light weight, with a custom chassis
after proof of concept. I'm aware that this will weigh more than a
purpose-built glider.
I'm considering constructing a 3-wheel commuter hybrid, and
would like to discuss licensure and insurance with anyone who's been
down this road before.
Source of power has clear benefits, as does efficiency, and my
past motorcycle insurance policies have been substantially cheaper than
4-wheeled modes of transit... are there hidden costs that I'm missing?
Randii
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 10:53:09 -0700
From: Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: EVs in Edmonton
To: [email protected]
Message-id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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I'm mostly interested in EV events in Edmonton, or things going on
nearby during the summer break.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tim Gamber
Sent: Wednesday, 24 January 2007 6:56 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: EVs in Edmonton
Hi i live in calgary and i have heard of a few EVs in edmonton and
calgary but none for sale...
>From: Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>Subject: EVs in Edmonton
>Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 06:52:29 -0700
>
>Hi all,
>
>Well the Fowler family has relocated from Sydney, Austrlia to Edmonton,
>Canada for the year of 2007.
>(We had to leave the EV behind, but it's in good hands. I hope :-)
>
>What sort of EV action is there in Edmonton?
>(Not an awful lot mentioned in the archives.)
>
>What about other nearby places? (Yes, I know, nearby is a relative
>term.)
>We'll be doing a bit of travelling during the school breaks.
>
>Mark
>
_________________________________________________________________
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From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:08:11 -0500
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: RE: LED, HID, and other conservative lights? (efficient heating)
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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On 25 Jan 2007 at 8:37, Dewey, Jody R ATC COMNAVAIRLANT, N422G5G wrote:
> I believe the Toyota Prius uses
> a heat pump system.
No, it doesn't; but the GM EV1 did. One of the many items from that project
that GM >could< have recycled for EV hobbyists instead of crushing - and
made a little money on - if they had cared.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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