EV Digest 6343
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Using Vortex Tubes
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: FW: Three-wheeling in California
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: repair of controller, Re: Curtis 1221R regen controller wirin
g diagram
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: FW: Three-wheeling in California
by Anthony Nguyen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: OT Copper, was: EEstor
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Toyota vs GM
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Voltage spikes.
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights? (efficient heating)
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New EVer, New EV
by Anthony Nguyen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights?
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Electric "Jeep", Is this project feasable?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Water cooled AC Motor question...
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: New EVer, New EV
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Electric "Jeep", Is this project feasable?
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Electric "Jeep", Is this project feasable?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Jeeps, Trucks & cars
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Water cooled AC Motor question...
by "Joe Plumer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Jan 2007 at 10:48, Bruce Weisenberger wrote:
> Also please be aware CO2 while cheap is also an
> environmentally control substance that for some reason
> contributes to global warming or so I've heard on this
> list.
But a tank of CO2 is just CO2 concentrated from the atmosphere. You release
it to the atmosphere, and the net effect (except for the energy used in
compressing it) is zero. I don't see the problem, other than the question
of where the CO2 goes (outside or inside the vehicle) and where you're
obtaining the air you're breathing. ;-)
> Also 3.4K btu is far cry from my cars present AC unit
> which doesn't work to well.
That's probably not enough to cool a vehicle effectively. Vehicles are
greenhouses on the wheels with cooling loads equal to a small house. I
can't find the bth/hr rating for the GM EV1 heat pump, but that would
probably be a good starting point.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 24 Jan 2007 at 13:55, John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> I don't consider a 700lb payload capacity to even BE a truck. More
> of a car with a big trunk.
Speaking of such matters, have you considered a car or small truck pulling a
largeish trailer? When you weren't hauling lumber, you could put batteries
in the trailer for more range. Seriously.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
3 wheelers are an excellent idea, for most states (some apparently dont
allow them)
One thing though, as I recall California has a weight limit on three
wheeled motor cycles. Can't remember what it is, but I think it's under
2,000 lbs.
> My research indicates that 3-wheelers in California are
> regulated as motorcycles... which looks to be one of the last few
> less-regulated niches available for highway-capable vehicles. I'm likely
> to work from a front-wheel drive auto glider, such as a Geo Metro, for
> ease of initial implementation and light weight, with a custom chassis
> after proof of concept. I'm aware that this will weigh more than a
> purpose-built glider.
>
> I'm considering constructing a 3-wheel commuter hybrid, and
> would like to discuss licensure and insurance with anyone who's been
> down this road before.
>
> Source of power has clear benefits, as does efficiency, and my
> past motorcycle insurance policies have been substantially cheaper than
> 4-wheeled modes of transit... are there hidden costs that I'm missing?
>
> Randii
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug,
You did not say if the fuse was in the motor or battery circuit,
though I assume the battery part.
The fuse likely failed when a component in the controller
failed and caused a short. Apparently the failed component(s)
blew up while also the fuse blew, this could cause more
components to fail due to possible voltage spike.
I recommend to replace ALL mosfets and diodes in the power stage.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Doug Hartley
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:39 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: repair of controller, Re: Curtis 1221R regen controller wiring
diagram
Hi Lee,
Thanks for your kind offer, I would like to take you up on it.
Only the 120V controller is not working well due to about half the MOSFETs
and diodes being blown, that I could see when I got the case off. It was
actually still functioning when I removed it from the car, but with much
less current output as one would expect. (If some people think a healthy
1221 is slow.......) That is the advantage of detecting the current by the
voltage drop across the MOSFETS - the remaining ones can still live and do a
proportionate amount of work as the control circuitry does not blindly
expect that fewer of them can supply the usual current amount. The fact
that the controller is still "working" suggests to me that there hopefully
is not a lot, or anything else, wrong and it is likely to work normally when
the blown MOSFETs and Diodes are replaced. (I drove the car for a couple of
weeks before getting tired of the in-adequate performance and swapped it out
with the 84V 1221R that had been in the car before.)
I have the MUR2020RG diodes and some better MOSFETS - NTP30N20G 30A 200V -
that I obtained for the repair, and could supply 25 diodes and 20 MOSFETs.
What I am lacking is the time and experience, and consequently, somewhat
lacking the courage to plunge in and tackle this work I didn't do before,
particularly considering the potting around the 10-pin connector, and the
way the boards are tied together.
This was a rebuilt 1221R that Gorilla vehicles had sold me. What I don't
understand is why it failed. It was mounted on a massive 1/4" thick
aluminum plate with the large Curtis 1231 heat sink, with the heat sink side
right at the front in the airflow. It never squealed about being hot, or
felt hot, under the hottest summer conditions. The battery pack voltage is
96V, with the regen voltage pot set to minimum and a regen current limit pot
in the car and regen on/off switch used to avoid excessive regen current or
regen with a full pack. The controller failed under light load, while
cruising at 30 mph after less than 10 minutes driving. I only noticed that
the car started to coast down and would not maintain speed (no bang or
exciting acceleration). When I got it to the parking lot of the nursing
home I was going to, (with the last part of the distance pushing it) I saw
that the special European 200A fuse was blown. I thought the fuse had
gotten "tired" after all these years and with slightly more current at times
than the original SCR regen controller had provided. I managed to rig a
temporary 100A fuse across the terminal bolts, to return home after the
visit. I didn't even realise there was anything wrong with the controller
as I was driving home very carefully, starting in first gear, etc., to
maintain low current drain with my temporary low value fuse. Once I replaced
the fuse and tried to drive normally, I saw that the controller was "weak"
and I could barely back the car onto the wheel ramps without taking a short
run at it.
Please email me for the arrangements. While I have some loss of confidence
in it after this kind of failure, I have nothing else that could work to
give regen and operate at the higher voltage pushed up by 28 cells of TS
lithium ion 100 A-hr (November 2004 good ones) helping the 8 DCS-75 AGMs.
So I would be very glad to have it working again. Thanks for your offer of
help with this.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 1:20 PM
Subject: Re: Curtis 1221R regen controller wiring diagram
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> Hi Robert,
>>
>> I have 3 1221R controllers (2 84V in use at 88 to 96V and 1 120V with
>> lots of blown FETs & diodes to deal with some time) and the paper copy of
>> the manual, so I could help you with that tonight when I am home after
>> work.
>> Do you have the 10-position Mini-fit Jr. connector shell and contacts
>> that mates with the socket on this controller?
>
> If you can't find anyone else to fix them, I can have a go at it. I just
> fixed a 1231C, and am fixing a 1221 for Bob Rice, so have some of the
> oddball parts.
>
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I seem to remember reading an electric 3 wheeler under 2500 pounds that
can do at least 45 mph is a motorcycle.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
3 wheelers are an excellent idea, for most states (some apparently dont
allow them)
One thing though, as I recall California has a weight limit on three
wheeled motor cycles. Can't remember what it is, but I think it's under
2,000 lbs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David and All,
I would agree with your comments about 3-phase in commercial areas. As an
example, my 144 VDC FrankenLester has 120/208/240 VAC taps on the xfmr's
primary, and I leave it on the 240 tap when charging at home, and at
relatives (dryer outlets with numerous plugs I carry), but when I charge at
my community radio station (kgnu.org), which is in a commercial area, I
have to change to the 208 tap in order to suck full power!
Suck Amps,
BB
>From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2007 10:11:32 -0500
>
>On 24 Jan 2007 at 10:10, Evan Tuer wrote:
>
>> It seems a lot simpler than the various US standards: centre tapped
>> 240V here, 208V there, 120 only in some places, a wide variety of
>> earthing and protection arrangements and no end of scary-looking
>> connectors.
>
>We're getting off topic here, but I might mention that the US differences
>are not that wide any more, if they ever were. It's rare today to encounter
>120v only residential service. When you do it's an ancient installation in
>a home purchased 20 or more years ago, before mortgage lenders and insurance
>carriers started insisting on updates to "systems." I doubt that any home
>sale would go through today without an upgrade of such a system.
>
>I don't think you'll often find 3-phase (208v) power in residential areas.
>It's to be found in light commercial zones, AFAIK. (My knowledge in this
>area is pretty limited so correct me if I err.)
<snipage>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon and All,
E-gads, you're going to let a kid drive a new car? Statistically, kids WILL
crash a car before they turn 18. Which reminds me, five years ago I was
giving my son's friend the "be careful" talk a couple of days after he got
his driver's license, and later that day he was upside down in his car! My
son was in the minority and didn't wreck until he was over the age of 18,
but before my daughter turned 18 (earlier this month, amen), she had two
accidents. She had rear-ended someone when she first got her license, and
last year she spun out in the RX-7 EV and smacked a curb, so I had to
replace a wheel and axle...
Suck Amps,
BB
>From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 17:07:24 +0000
>
>>If it does, I don't know about you, but I'll be celebrating. I'm not too
>>concerned with whether it's Toyota, GM, Nissan, Ford, or for that matter
>>General Electric or Zenn or Phoenix which makes it happen, just as long as
>> >someone< does.
>
>I'm with you on this. One of the reasons I drive a Honda Insight instead of
>an EV is because I could walk into a dealership, pick out my color and drive
>away with it.
>
>Even now with my oldest son coming up on 16 I'm torn between putting in the
>tremendous time and resources it takes to convert a small truck to an EV or
>going out and buying my wife that new Prius we've been wanting to get
>forever, and letting him drive her car...
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My daughter just faced a big one. The year old transformer supplying
grid power to their hours failed,
putting high voltage into their house. The convenience outlets arced
over, leaving smoke on their walls.
Everything plugged in burned out. Company paid.
John in Sylmar, CA
PV EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peltier heat pumps' pumping ability drops off linear with temp
differential. If the cold sink is like 40F and the hot side is 110F,
the pumping capacity is near zero and it's all resistive heating from
the electricity. In fact trying to achieve high temp differentials will
be less efficient than just a resistor because of thermal leakage from
hot side to cold is greater than the thermal pumping ability from cold
to hot.
AC can't be reversed just by running the pump backwards, but a heat pump
can place the evaporator outside and the condensor inside.
However, the heat pump won't work because the evaporator outside will
quickly freeze. The ice will insulate it and it will be unable to
absorb a substantial amount of heat as the refrigerant rapidly gets very
very cold and the condensor will no longer put out any heat. Actually
you will get liquid refrigerant in the compresser too which will break
it right there.
The icing will also affect Peltiers, insulating the heat sink and
letting it get so cold that the temp differential rises to a point where
the Peltier cannot perform and useful pumping at all.
Danny
Dmitri wrote:
Hmm, a Peltier heater maybe?
What about using an AC in reverse? Would that work? Why doesn't
anybody use that, since they are more efficient than Peltiers, and
provide cooling as well.
How much more efficient would that be, compared to just resistive
heating? Anybody know?
----- Original Message ----- From: "nikki" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 4:07 AM
Subject: Re: LED, HID, and other conservative lights?
Now if you were asking about power efficient heating I'd really want
it! I've got two 400W heaters in the el and the power drain is so
large with both on (800W) that when I step on the accelerator the
second 400W coil is turned off to prevent huge current drain on the
batteries. Which means I only stay toastie warm in traffic....
Nikki.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HID is neat. Incredibly powerful and focused yet efficient.
The problem is HIDs cannot simply be turned on and off like a halogen.
They must go through a starting cycle that takes several minutes, in the
early stages it produces little light. This is true even if you just
turned it off. The ballast will handle this but the results are poor.
So you can't use them as brights and electrically turn them off, there
are mechanical systems to shutter them or redirect them down when you
want to dim your brights. Some use them as the low beam only and a
traditional halogen for the hi beam, which is silly considering they're
more powerful than the halogen!
People have been saying that aftermarket HIDs are dangerous (as well as
illegal) because they don't focus correctly. This is possible, but you
can also get a takeout HID with its original projector housing and lens
which will definitely meet its original specs. Still, people say
they're too bright- even low beams do sometimes hit oncoming traffic in
the eyes.
On the whole HID saves little. The wattage listed is actually for the
bulb, it's like 35W instead of 55W for a halogen high beam but the
that's only for the bulb- the ballast may take up another couple of
watts. Now one HID is more than twice as bright as that halogen, and if
you had only one HID on as opposed to 2 halogens then there would be a
more substantial power savings as well as more light. But you can't
legally drive with only one headlight.
Danny
Randy Burleson wrote:
Are most of you using LED lights to minimize electrical draw, or just
working with whatever came in your glider? Retro-reflective tape only
goes so far -- we all need turn signals and such?
As I nursed my charge-handicapped daily driver home in the dark, with
first dim white, then dim yellow, I was thinking about my eventual
electric or hybrid, and wondering how significant headlight drains are
to overall range... and whether the snazzy new HID lamps are more
conservative in electrical usage, after the ballast fires.
Randii (driving by Braille)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Regarding the thyristor sine-chopping setup you mentioned in (1) ...
you're basically talking about charging your batteries with a giant
light dimmer. I've actually read about a guy charging car batteries
like this, but I don't remember the link. You can probably find it by
googling for welding with car batteries. Pulsing a lead-acid battery
with an unusually high voltage is actually how desulfators work, so it
probably won't be THAT bad for your batteries. But personally, I'd
probably use a large capacitor to filter some of that out, and I'd
definitely be careful when the batteries are nearing fully-charged.
Bryan Taylor wrote:
First, I'd like to thank all of the regularly posting members for your time and
knowledge. I've been reading the list for awhile and trying to absorb all of
the information that I can.
My name is Bryan and I'm a senior Aerospace Engineering student in Prescott, AZ. I recently purchased a newly converted 1971 VW Beetle and the school has generously allocated resources for some modifications to the car under the Electrical Engineering department.
The car as delivered: '71 Super Beetle, 9 Energizer GC8 batteries (6 behind the
back seat, 3 in the front), Alltrax 72V controller, 10hp motor (D&D),
Schumacher 10 amp charger, auxiliary battery with no DC-DC converter (yet). From a
mechanical perspective, the car needs some work (brakes are being fully replaced
with four wheel disc, new shocks, etc) but that is in progress now (or at least the
parts are in my living room waiting for the garage at school to be emptied).
The purpose of the project (and yes, I know a few of you are going to have a
serious problem with this, but it is what it is) is to build an optional
generator trailer for the vehicle. I plan on driving the vehicle around the
country this coming summer hiking, camping, etc before I get stuck in a lab for
the next five years in grad school (at which point I'll put the trailer away
and go back to pure EV). I have an old concrete mixer trailer that we've
rehabilitated and are modifying for the project and we're currently working on
the CAD models to do aerodynamic testing of the vehicle/trailer combinations to
decide on the proper composite fairings. That's the easy part for me though.
I have a hundred questions but I'll try and minimize them for now.
The trailer will have a traditional gas generator on it that provides 8kw
continuous. For those of you that speak of tuning the engines for the most
efficient (or minimal toxicity), I would love to know how someone might go
about doing that. Otherwise, it's a brand new generac engine that will be run
stock.
1) My battery pack is 72V nominal. I've heard two different opinions (both
from electrical engineers) regarding the charging of the batteries (bypassing
the Schumacher). The essential question is: If power is constant going into
the batteries, does the peak voltage matter from a battery health perspective?
I was originally planning on a transformer/rectifier configuration that would
provide a fairly clean DC signal from the trailer at the cost of the weight and
cost of the the transformer. I'm confident this would work, however. An
alternate design has been suggested that eliminates the transformer by using
thyristors for the rectifier diodes. A controlling circuit would adjust the
phase angle (delay) for the configured power. In other words, the rectified
signal would have the beginning portion of each half sine wave eliminated in
order to adjust for the power (and therefore average voltage) required. This
would save weight and money but I don't know if the chemis!
tr!
y of flooded PbA will be happy with short intermittent bursts of almost twice
their nominal voltage even if the time average of the voltage is correct.
Right now the plan is to have the auxiliary power come into a bus bar parallel
with the battery pack which then feeds the controller. If the spiking voltage
is not battery friendly, is it possible to use diodes to isolate the batteries
from the auxiliary source (while letting them both feed the controller in
parallel) and use a larger charger fed from the AC generator source for the
batteries? Can a charger be used while the car is under operation and the
batteries are being intermittently discharged?
2) Now for some easy questions. I've been getting data from the Alltrax and it
brought up the question about when you see ratings for the controller (amperage
limits) are those battery amps or motor amps?
3) I've looked high and low and can't find specs on the EGC8 batteries (from Sams Club website, Energizer website, or Johnson Controls) as well as the D&D motor. The motor is 10hp cont, 40hp peak but what are the time limits for what level?
That should be enough to spark some discussion. I look forward to getting
feedback from the experienced in the group.
Bryan Taylor
____________________________________________________________________________________
8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no time
with the Yahoo! Search movie showtime shortcut.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#news
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is no way to build functional LED headlights. Already did the
equations. Look on the archives.
LEDs are actually not substantially more efficient than well-designed
halogens. They can easily be less efficient. I know that runs contrary
to intuition, but it is quite true.
Danny
Randy Burleson wrote:
Are most of you using LED lights to minimize electrical draw, or just
working with whatever came in your glider? Retro-reflective tape only
goes so far -- we all need turn signals and such?
As I nursed my charge-handicapped daily driver home in the dark, with
first dim white, then dim yellow, I was thinking about my eventual
electric or hybrid, and wondering how significant headlight drains are
to overall range... and whether the snazzy new HID lamps are more
conservative in electrical usage, after the ballast fires.
Randii (driving by Braille)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John (xx xx) wrote:
> I've seen others say a 9" didn't give them enough
> torque for a heavy vehicle.
Rod's Land Rover isn't what EVers consider a heavy vehicle. I don't
know about the newer Land Rover models, but the older ones, such as
Rod's, are aluminum bodied, and Rod described his as "two thousand plus"
(lbs); this is in the same ballpark as the *lighter* car conversions.
It isn't unusual for a car conversion using flooded batteries to be over
3000lbs and a small truck to be 4000+.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Joe,
The short version: No.
The long version:
That is the misconception implemented in my truck.
I monitored the water temp because the inverter can
report its temp.
Usually I see the water temp about 2 deg above ambient,
maybe up to 5 after a few start/stops with traffic lights,
because I disabled the radiator fan which was quite an
overkill, as the original S10 radiator is used to cool
controller and motor.
I do not know how much the motor adds to the water temp
before it ciculates through the heater core and back to
the radiator, but I can tell you that there is no
difference that I can feel between hot and cold settings,
so I usually simply leave the heater fan switch at "OFF"
and wear a coat, until the time that I can install a
ceramic heater.
(Alternative is a small tank heater)
If you think about it - the purposes of the two systems
are opposite, so that is why it should never work:
- inverter (and motor) cooling must keep the parts as cool
as possible - every 10 deg (Celcius) rise in temp cuts
the life expectancy of the parts in half.
I am perfectly happy when ambient is 5 and my inverter
reports that it is running at 7 deg C.
The system gets rid of its heat as quickly as possible,
to keep the temp in the system as low as possible.
- heater needs to be very high temp, at least 70 deg C
(about 140F) but the closer to boiling, the better the
cabin air will be heated. This means that a heater will
try to be isolated from ambient to stay hot and only
release the heat into the cabin. This is the opposite
of what the motor/controller cooling must do.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Joe Plumer
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 6:23 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Water cooled AC Motor question...
For those of you who are running water cooled AC Motors, does the water
circulating
through the motor get hot enough to be used for heating the vehicle?
Instead of having to take apart the dash and find a replacement heater, the
heated
water could circulate though the current heater and be used for heating.
It wouldn't be much different than a normal car where it takes a few minutes
of
driving before the water heats up enough to provide any cooling.
Just a thought.
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bryan,
Your setup can work as long as you do not require long freeway
speed driving, because the power you require for constant
freeway speed is usually above 10 kW.
If you have occasional lower speeds or a stop where you can
continue to charge, you should be OK.
NOTE that there are laws about engines running (idling) on
vehicles being parked.
Your idea about bypassing batteries and feeding the controller
directly because you are concerned about the batteries has a
critical flaw - you should be concerned about the controller!
Sending up to 170V into a 72V controller does not sound like
a good idea to me.
You can rig up a charger that does some crude current limiting,
voltage limiting is another issue that you need to address to
avoid damage to the batteries.
There have been "dimmer-boy" variants of the bad boy, which is
comparable to what you describe.
If you are concerned about the high peaks - use an inductor
to smooth out the output into the batteries.
With some feed-back from battery voltage to the dimmer control,
you can have a pretty neat charger with a simple setup.
Controller limits are usually motor amp limits, because the
controller will "multiply" current at lower motor speeds, due
to the motor current circulating through the diodes.
Battery current is never higher than motor amps; in some
controllers you can set limits for either side independently,
for example max 250A from the batteries and max 500A in the motor.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Bryan Taylor
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 7:46 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: New EVer, New EV
First, I'd like to thank all of the regularly posting members for your time
and knowledge. I've been reading the list for awhile and trying to absorb
all of the information that I can.
My name is Bryan and I'm a senior Aerospace Engineering student in Prescott,
AZ. I recently purchased a newly converted 1971 VW Beetle and the school
has generously allocated resources for some modifications to the car under
the Electrical Engineering department.
The car as delivered: '71 Super Beetle, 9 Energizer GC8 batteries (6 behind
the back seat, 3 in the front), Alltrax 72V controller, 10hp motor (D&D),
Schumacher 10 amp charger, auxiliary battery with no DC-DC converter (yet).
>From a mechanical perspective, the car needs some work (brakes are being
fully replaced with four wheel disc, new shocks, etc) but that is in
progress now (or at least the parts are in my living room waiting for the
garage at school to be emptied).
The purpose of the project (and yes, I know a few of you are going to have a
serious problem with this, but it is what it is) is to build an optional
generator trailer for the vehicle. I plan on driving the vehicle around the
country this coming summer hiking, camping, etc before I get stuck in a lab
for the next five years in grad school (at which point I'll put the trailer
away and go back to pure EV). I have an old concrete mixer trailer that
we've rehabilitated and are modifying for the project and we're currently
working on the CAD models to do aerodynamic testing of the vehicle/trailer
combinations to decide on the proper composite fairings. That's the easy
part for me though.
I have a hundred questions but I'll try and minimize them for now.
The trailer will have a traditional gas generator on it that provides 8kw
continuous. For those of you that speak of tuning the engines for the most
efficient (or minimal toxicity), I would love to know how someone might go
about doing that. Otherwise, it's a brand new generac engine that will be
run stock.
1) My battery pack is 72V nominal. I've heard two different opinions (both
from electrical engineers) regarding the charging of the batteries
(bypassing the Schumacher). The essential question is: If power is constant
going into the batteries, does the peak voltage matter from a battery health
perspective? I was originally planning on a transformer/rectifier
configuration that would provide a fairly clean DC signal from the trailer
at the cost of the weight and cost of the the transformer. I'm confident
this would work, however. An alternate design has been suggested that
eliminates the transformer by using thyristors for the rectifier diodes. A
controlling circuit would adjust the phase angle (delay) for the configured
power. In other words, the rectified signal would have the beginning
portion of each half sine wave eliminated in order to adjust for the power
(and therefore average voltage) required. This would save weight and money
but I don't know if the chemistr!
y of flooded PbA will be happy with short intermittent bursts of almost
twice their nominal voltage even if the time average of the voltage is
correct. Right now the plan is to have the auxiliary power come into a bus
bar parallel with the battery pack which then feeds the controller. If the
spiking voltage is not battery friendly, is it possible to use diodes to
isolate the batteries from the auxiliary source (while letting them both
feed the controller in parallel) and use a larger charger fed from the AC
generator source for the batteries? Can a charger be used while the car is
under operation and the batteries are being intermittently discharged?
2) Now for some easy questions. I've been getting data from the Alltrax and
it brought up the question about when you see ratings for the controller
(amperage limits) are those battery amps or motor amps?
3) I've looked high and low and can't find specs on the EGC8 batteries (from
Sams Club website, Energizer website, or Johnson Controls) as well as the
D&D motor. The motor is 10hp cont, 40hp peak but what are the time limits
for what level?
That should be enough to spark some discussion. I look forward to getting
feedback from the experienced in the group.
Bryan Taylor
____________________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
First of all our Land Rover was not that heavy :-) It was only a little over
two tons. We also used a single nine inch Advanced DC motor in a road race
Ford Taurus that weighed two tons. It did near 80 mph on the straights at
Firebird. We did race our Land Rover 0 to 60 mph against our Ford PU which
had a 460 cubic inch V8 motor. They went neck to neck the whole way. In
answer to your question, is the motor adequate, I would have to say yes.
Having said that, eleven inch motors weren't readily available at the time
so if I made the decision now I might go with an eleven. There is never such
a thing as too much torque, that is as long as you don't mind buying axles,
etc.
Concerning the Jeep Cherokee, I did one of these conversions in 1997 with
144 volts of T-145 Trojans. It had great range. It was rather difficult
shoehorning in all those batteries and retaining a full back seat and
storage area behind.
Roderick Wilde
EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "xx xx" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 6:24 AM
Subject: Re: Electric "Jeep", Is this project feasable?
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
First of all I am not the one to be advising you
on battery types that far
exceed the cost of the conversion. Most of my
customers can not afford them
so I have not gotten involved with them yet.
I don't know if I can afford them either, but I'm also
not sure if this vehicle will perform as I want
without them.
We used a single 9" Advanced DC motor in the Land
Rover.
I've seen others say a 9" didn't give them enough
torque for a heavy vehicle. Did the 9 seem like
enough or was it sluggish? If you had to compromise
would you get a bigger motor first or a bigger
controller? I guess it would be easier to add a
larger controller later than to attach a larger motor.
Which battery setup did you like the best?
I still find it bizarre that after
more than ten years no
one else has discovered the ultimate thrill of
electric four wheeling.
You're probably familiar with this and I don't know if
he takes it off road but this guy has done a Cherokee
EV:
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/home.php
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/589
Looking at his specs I doubt I can get my desired
range without expensive battery technology :(
Thanks for your time.
John
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--- Begin Message ---
Roderick Wilde wrote:
> First of all our Land Rover was not that heavy :-) It was
> only a little over two tons.
Was it a little over 4000lbs (2 tons), or was it "two thousand plus"
(something over 1 ton), as your original description stated?
Maybe I need to dig out my copy of the LRM atricle and refresh my
memory! ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folk's
I used a 9" in my 4200lb Geo Tracker with 20 6V floodeds and performance was
fine, about 65mph highway speed. 9" are usually used in trucks/jeeps and 8" in
cars like my 2400lb Electro-Metro with 14 batteries, 1st 6V then 8V. This
should be intuitively obvious but it takes about half the HP, batteries,
controller = cost at 2k lbs than it does to shove a 4k lb vehicle down the
road. I'm now going full circle back to a lightweight vehicle, a 914 Porsche
2100lbs start weight (but not as light as my earlier 1700lb cheese wedge or
1200lb Bombardier. I got 30 mile range with 12ea 8V batteries in the
Bombardier and it took 20 batteries in the jeep to do the same plus I got tired
of watering all those batteries while driving 300 miles a week. Battery
changing time every 10k miles was a PITA. Less batteries (lighter weight
vehicle) makes a better more cost effective EV.
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 2007 06:24:14 -0800 (PST)
From: xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Electric "Jeep", Is this project feasable?
To: [email protected]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> First of all I am not the one to be advising you
> on battery types that far
> exceed the cost of the conversion. Most of my
> customers can not afford them
> so I have not gotten involved with them yet.
I don't know if I can afford them either, but I'm also
not sure if this vehicle will perform as I want
without them.
> We used a single 9" Advanced DC motor in the Land
> Rover.
I've seen others say a 9" didn't give them enough
torque for a heavy vehicle. Did the 9 seem like
enough or was it sluggish? If you had to compromise
would you get a bigger motor first or a bigger
controller? I guess it would be easier to add a
larger controller later than to attach a larger motor.
Which battery setup did you like the best?
> I still find it bizarre that after
> more than ten years no
> one else has discovered the ultimate thrill of
> electric four wheeling.
You're probably familiar with this and I don't know if
he takes it off road but this guy has done a Cherokee
EV:
http://www.driveev.com/jeepev/home.php
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/589
Looking at his specs I doubt I can get my desired
range without expensive battery technology :(
Thanks for your time.
John
---------------------------------
Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast
with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That is a perfect explanation, and it makes me better informed so
that when I finalize my list of parts I should include a ceramic heater
if I want to have heat.
Thanks.
Hi Joe,
The short version: No.
The long version:
That is the misconception implemented in my truck.
I monitored the water temp because the inverter can
report its temp.
Usually I see the water temp about 2 deg above ambient,
maybe up to 5 after a few start/stops with traffic lights,
because I disabled the radiator fan which was quite an
overkill, as the original S10 radiator is used to cool
controller and motor.
I do not know how much the motor adds to the water temp
before it ciculates through the heater core and back to
the radiator, but I can tell you that there is no
difference that I can feel between hot and cold settings,
so I usually simply leave the heater fan switch at "OFF"
and wear a coat, until the time that I can install a
ceramic heater.
(Alternative is a small tank heater)
If you think about it - the purposes of the two systems
are opposite, so that is why it should never work:
- inverter (and motor) cooling must keep the parts as cool
as possible - every 10 deg (Celcius) rise in temp cuts
the life expectancy of the parts in half.
I am perfectly happy when ambient is 5 and my inverter
reports that it is running at 7 deg C.
The system gets rid of its heat as quickly as possible,
to keep the temp in the system as low as possible.
- heater needs to be very high temp, at least 70 deg C
(about 140F) but the closer to boiling, the better the
cabin air will be heated. This means that a heater will
try to be isolated from ambient to stay hot and only
release the heat into the cabin. This is the opposite
of what the motor/controller cooling must do.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Joe Plumer
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 6:23 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Water cooled AC Motor question...
For those of you who are running water cooled AC Motors, does the water
circulating
through the motor get hot enough to be used for heating the vehicle?
Instead of having to take apart the dash and find a replacement heater, the
heated
water could circulate though the current heater and be used for heating.
It wouldn't be much different than a normal car where it takes a few
minutes
of
driving before the water heats up enough to provide any cooling.
Just a thought.
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