EV Digest 6351
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Insurance companies writing EV policies
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: [Evtech] "open source" e-meter
by "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Listserv v. BB/forum
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Sushrut
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Hi all
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Insurance companies writing EV policies
by "Kip C. Anderson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: a few configurations
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Listserv v. BB/forum
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EV weather?
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames in San Francisco - again!
by "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Starting out on a EV in the UK
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Listserv v. BB/forum
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Starting out on a EV in the UK
by "Chris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames in San Francisco - again!
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames - EVLN(GEM nEV besmirches EV's
reputation)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Freedom Ev update and BBB
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Lead acid batteries are just not good enough (Hi all)
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames - EVLN(GEM nEV besmirches EV's
reputation)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before, More Comments.
by "Chelsea Sexton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Insurance companies writing EV policies?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Go with GEICO.
They are easy to deal with as far as getting insurance.
They insure the car for what it is. They told me according to them
its a Ford Escort whether it was powered by gas or electricity.
Only problem I had was with a claim. My car was broadsided and
because the body damage ($1,200) was worth more then the car they
said it was totalled. Obviously it doesn't take much more then a dent
for an '87 car as totaled. So that was no surprise. But I proved what
the going rate was for EVs like mine were (thanks to the EV Trading
Post) and they sent me $1200.
Progressive might be another one to try.
I was rejected by one company. At the time we were working with a
financial advisor who suggested we put all our stuff under their
group of financial and insurance providers. Everything was going well
until the issue of the EV came up with their insurance company. They
claimed I wasn't "skilled" enough to build an EV even though GEICO
was insuring it already. So we rejected them and showed the financial
advisor the door.
But GEICO was the easiest and their rates are pretty good too. Even
though we had that issue with the accident they worked with us to
give us the claim.
Chip
On Jan 26, 2007, at 6:51 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
----- Original Message ----
From: Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 1:02:51 AM
Subject: Insurance companies writing EV policies?
I know this has been covered, but I've done a couple searches in the
archives and haven't found any insurance companies mentioned as
writing EV insurance other than The Hartford. Some others people are
insured with?
Thanks,
Jerry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is from Otmar, he posted it to the EVTech list and I think it is important
enough to forward to the EVList, I hope you don't mind Otmar.
> As much as I hate Maxim since they often discontinue parts and are
> often hard to get, may I suggest the MAX1660 as a potential part
> inexpensive practical e-meter replacement?
Maxim is already suggesting MAX1781 or MAX1782 as a replacement <G>
> The fact is, if you own a Hairball 2 (which I build), you already
> have a PC board that's designed to hold the MAX1660, a Pic to talk to
> it, A isolated DC-DC to run it and input filtering from the shunt and
> battery pack. There are some things lacking though:
> 1) The hardware has never been tested, it may not even work.
> 2) Software has never been written.
> 3) There is no display at this time.
>
> If someone else wrote software they could test it and spit out data
> on a 5V serial port, but would not have access to the internal code
> of the main Hairball PIC. (unless I trusted them amazingly well, and
> that's not real common)
>
> My intention was to program the thing, program the Hairball PIC to
> pull the data from it and then both drive the factory vehicle fuel
> gauge and send data out the EVIL bus for a dash display. I would also
> like to program the VSS input on the Hairball so we all could get Wh
> per mile and miles remaining data.
>
> Alas, my supply of free programming time has not been large enough to
> start this and therefore I have not moved forward with it even though
> the hardware has been designed for years.
>
> --
> -Otmar-
> 914 EV, California Poppy,
> http://evcl.com/914/
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/
> The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
If I read his email right, he is willing to give his Hairball 2 internal code
to somebody he TRUSTS to develop it. The hairball already has a place for a
MAX1660 chip. This chip will accurately monitor a battery pack's charge and
discharge current flow.
Does one of our wonder programmers want to rise to the ocassion? I would
suggest that you contact him off list, and don't be suprised if it takes a week
or 2 for him to answer, he is pretty busy.
HTH,
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
www.Airphibian.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Adrian DeLeon writes:
>
> I feel there are 2 big reasons a BB/forum would be very beneficial - even
> for dialup users.
If you don't like the format of the EVDL, setup something else and post
the contact information. If enough people like the new format, it will
prosper, otherwise it probably won't. Endless discussions won't change
this.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where have you found hub motors to use in your EV?
What type are they and how powerful?
> what changes or software i should look for to making my ev with hub motors
> turn
>
> does it require some thing to make it turn
>
> how does the power from each battery vary
>
> please clarify
>
> finally are hub motors suitable for ev conversions
>
> where can i find good ac hub motors
>
> regards
> Sushrut
>
>
>
> On 1/27/07, Anthony Nguyen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> A differential is to take power coming from a single engine and split it
>> into different amounts for each wheel. With hub motors each wheel
>> automatically gets a different amount of power because they each have
>> their own engine
>>
>>
>> Dmitri wrote:
>> > The motor stops.
>> > Depends on what kind of stop and go it is! Would be easy on the
>> > battery if it was light acceleration, but hard on the battery if it
>> > was hard acceleration.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "sushrut patgaonkar"
>> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 3:24 PM
>> > Subject: Sushrut
>> >
>> >
>> >> I have two questions
>> >>
>> >> 1. What happens to an ev at traffic lights , does the motor stops
>> taking
>> >> power or does it keep
>> >> running ,, how do stop and go conditions affect the life of a battery
>> >> {li-ion}?
>> >>
>> >> 2. there is an ev with 4 flat motors ( hub motors ), how does such a
>> >> vehicle
>> >> handle turns without a differential?
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I am not trying to be cynical here but lead acid batteries are just not
> good
> enough for an ev
Thousands of people around the world would disagree with you, they are
using lead-acid quite sucessfully in EVs.
>
> they are heavy , dont have energy density , take up lots of space and have
> to be replaced after a few miles
I guess that depends on your definition of "few" and which type of battery
you use. Most people get over 10,000 miles and a few get over 20,000
miles out of a set of GC batteries.
>
> from my point of veiw pure electrics just dont have what it takes to be a
> good business
> unless of course they are li-ion / polymer
> but these are not avaliable in India and cost too much to import
Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For the vast majority,
pure electrics (using lead-acid batteries) provide enough range for most
of their daily needs.
Hybrids look good on paper, but most people who try building them end up
with little or no improvement over ordinary cars.
There used to be a university competition here in the states with the goal
of building a hybrid that got double the normal gas mileage. Most of the
entries couldn't even MATCH the normal gas mileage and I don't think
anyone ever managed to reach to goal of double.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having worked as a claim adjuster, the best advice I can give is to not hide
anything - by omission or otherwise. If the insurance company takes the
position that you failed to disclose information relating to the value of
the vehicle, then you could have your claim denied entirely, if not merely
paid at market value for a non-EV.
Don't take a chance. Make sure they know, and if necessary, get a policy
with a stated value.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Series hybrids are the most difficult to make efficient.
The power from your engine most go through conversion to electricicty -
where you will loose approx 10-20% of your power-, then if you are going
to store it in a battery you'll loose another 10-25% of your power, then
you convert it from electricity back to mechanical motion and loose
another 10-20% of your power.
You'd be better off using a smaller engine dircetly coupled to the wheels
and suplementing it's power with an electric motor for acceleration and
hills. The electric motor could provide regen braking to get a portion of
this acceleration energy back during braking, and then you could add a
small generator to the diesel/etc. to make up for the lost energy.
I'm still interested to know where you have found affordable hub motors
at. Here in the states I'm only aware of one company that makes hub
motors powerfull enough for a car size EV and they cost something like
~$20,000 each.
> Hello all,
>
> I was thinking last night about some ev configurations
>
> 1. A small diesel engine of about 35 hp connected to a ac generator which
> is
> connected directly to two hub motors ,,what would be the likely advantages
> and dis advantages of such a system,,will it need two controllers ? will
> it
> need the extra weight of a gearbox to achieve performance of 200 kmph,,
> the
> diesel engine will be tuned for maximum efficiency ,, what configuration
> of
> motors should i start looking for if I want to build such a system
>
> 2. does anyone have contacts of where to source ev parts in India ,,
> (Ahmedabad , Mumbai)
>
> 3. Can such a system deliver on the goals of efficiency and performance
>
> 4. what would be the costof such a system ?
>
> 5.what is the significance of having a battery pack in the first place ,,
> can it be bypassed to prevent the weight penalty associated with batteries
>
> 6. has anyone heard of such a system or worked on such a system?
>
> 7. where can I find mentors for guiding me thru the process of building
> the
> above said system
>
> 8.what would be the specifications of such a system if it is to be used
> for
> a) a sports car
> b) a suv
>
> thank you all
> Sushrut
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[rant]
Great, go ahead and start a BBS and convert all of the old archieves over
and then invite everyone to join.
Oh, you mean you want someone /else/ to do all the work for you just to
make YOU happy.
[/rant]
Most people are too lazy to do the work neccessary to make their dream
system come true. The few that have tried so far have all basically
failed.
> I feel there are 2 big reasons a BB/forum would be very beneficial - even
> for dialup users.
>
> 1) Information is archived in threads. No searching through hundreds of
> archived messages trying to track down small bits of data on a topic. All
> related information is in one place and can be easily located with a quick
> search. a FAQ section would take care of the endless "I'm new to EVs,
> which is better, AC or DC?" posts.
>
> 2) A BB/forum reduces the huge amount of bandwidth wasted with short
> replies to long posts. IE: a 1 line reply followed by the original 65
> lines of text. In a listserv this is almost mandatory. And how many times
> have you seen an entire EV digest tacked on to the end of a short post?
>
> The key to a relatively painless switchover is to integrate large chunks
> of the EVDL archives (AC vs DC, beginners info, battery info, etc) into
> the forum before it goes live. Then the search function will return useful
> results even if no one uses the forum. It is definitely a large task to
> tackle, but would be well worth it.
>
>> here we are, stumbling along at horse and buggy speed with20th century
>> technology as our primary means of group
>> communication while the knitters and clog-dancers areflying by in the
>> fast lane of the internet.
>
> How true! So many people cling to the listserv like it's their life
> support! The wheel has been around for quite a while too, but I don't have
> granite tires on my EV ;)
>
> "But I use the EVDL because it works great on my blackberry, cellphone,
> Commodore64, teletype..." If you're too busy to sit down at a computer (or
> laptop!) and scan through a page or two of subjects once a week then
> you're probably too busy to sift through all the BS that floats around on
> the EVDL anyway.
>
> "You need a better mail client to thread messages, search, sort, etc."
> That only works IF I've archived the EVDL for the last 20 years AND don't
> receive the EVDL in digest format. And everyone knows web searches of the
> EVDL are a hassle (because results are in digest format!)
>
> "The EVDL has been around for 20 years and works just fine." Right. That's
> why I get 100 messages/day (150K to 300K of data) covering 5-10 subjects
> with maybe 10% new material. The other 90% is copies of original messages,
> requests to unsubscribe, and complaints that posts aren't getting through.
>
> "I'm on dialup and pay $100/message to read e-mail." Then you definitely
> want a forum! Check out www.spadworld.net for a good example. Over 64,000
> posts and 2,000+ members. Everything's organized into broad categories,
> the largest of which has less than 600 original topics. The opening page
> is 50K without the graphic - equivalent to a single EV digest. Use the
> "view posts since last visit" to see updated subjects (another 50K) and
> only view topics of interest. If you only want answers to a few quick
> questions, ask for e-mail notification when a reply comes in. Then you
> don't have to regularly check the forum at all.
>
> [/rant]
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
Today's papers are covering Anchorage's snow. How about a
personalized weather report?
John in drizzle infested Southern California.
No PV EV today - Solar only producing at 150 watts. Maybe more later.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"That vehicle was plugged in at the time, prompting GGNRA officials to adopt
a policy requiring that
unattended vehicles be left unplugged, Weideman said."
Does this mean I should go grab a lawn chair and sit in front of my EV for 8
hours?
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
Thank GOD for Thomas Edison. Without him we would all be watching TV by
candle light.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 3:26 PM
Subject: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames in San Francisco - again!
At first I thought this was a hoax, similar to the stories about hollywood
celebrities whose cars had burst into flames inside their houses.
I still think it's arson. But whatever the case, it's real:
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/26/BAGGONPRBP14.DTL
Fire closes Warming Hut
Electric car outside Crissy Field cafe bursts into flames
(01-26) 13:25 PST -- An electric vehicle parked outside the Warming Hut
at
Crissy Field caught fire early this morning, damaging the popular cafe and
gift shop so severely that it will remain closed for several weeks while
the
National Park Service makes repairs.
Golden Gate Bridge security officers saw a two-story pillar of flame
shortly
after midnight and alerted the Park Service Fire Department, which
extinguished the fire within 30 minutes, said Rich Weideman, a spokesman
for
the Golden Gate National Recreation Area.
Investigators determined the blaze started with an electrical fire in a
nearby Gem electric vehicle, but they do not know what went wrong with the
vehicle, Weideman said. The vehicle was unplugged and parked on the west
side of the Warming Hut, he said.
The fire caused relatively little damage, but the smoke it generated and
the
water used to extinguish it made a mess of the building and its inventory,
Weideman said.
The Warming Hut is among the park's most popular buildings, a place where
tourists and locals alike grab a cup of coffee, a bite to eat and a
souvenir. With the Warming Hut boarded up, visitors are encouraged to
visit
the Crissy Cafe not far away at the Crissy Center.
Today's fire was the second time a Gem vehicle has caught fire at the
Golden
Gate National Recreation Area. One of the DaimlerChrysler-made vehicles
caught fire a year ago at Alcatraz Island. That vehicle was plugged in at
the time, prompting GGNRA officials to adopt a policy requiring that
unattended vehicles be left unplugged, Weideman said.
In both cases, the vehicles "burned literally to the frame," and
investigators suspect a problem with the vehicles' batteries or wiring,
Weideman said. Park authorities contacted DaimlerChrysler after last
year's
fire and were told the automaker was not aware of any problems, Weideman
said.
Park officials have once again contacted DaimlerChrysler and will be
working
with the company to determine what went wrong. In the meantime, the park
and
the Golden Gate National Park Conservancy, the park's nonprofit
fundraising
and outreach arm, are reviewing their policies regarding the use and
storage
of Gem vehicles, Weideman said.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Are the AC motors special purpose EV built units? Or are they derived from
>industrial units?
Both have been done. EV control typically requires a speed sensor
on the motor for proper control, though. This is fairly easy to
add. The AC motors sold by Metric Mind are purpose-built for EV's,
but as with any technology like that, certainly would have evolved
from an industrial motor.
>Due to their wide spread usage, industrial motors seem very economical
>compared to brushed and series wound DC motors. In terms of actual cost, a
>brand new 15Hp 3 phase 400v motor in the UK is around $510. Compared to a
DC
>motor in the US, I've seen the Etek units go for around $600, which can
only
>just manage 15Hp Peak.
If you pick the correct rotor type (torque curve), a 15HP motor will be
capable of producing somewhere around 50 to 80HP for a while - but
efficiency drops a bit up there, and you are thermally limited - ie
you can do that until the motor gets too hot. Basically,
for high-torque operation, you run the motor in the 'startup' torque
region, which can be from 2 to 5 times the nominal running torque. This
multiplier depends on the rotor construction, mostly, and the torque vs.
efficiency vs. slip is typically published. Alternately, torque vs. rpm
and efficiency vs. rpm can be used given that the typical 1800 RPM speed
(in North America) is zero-slip. In Europe, 1500 RPM is your number.
In 'Motor Control Electronics Handbook', Richard Valentine and a few others
did a couple of conversions of a 1993 Dodge Dakota. One conversion tried
was an FB-4001 Advanced DC, and the other used a 15kW (20 HP) size 256
frame motor rewound from 230V to 150V. They added a speed sensor, and
built a 400A VFD for it. This motor was capable of running at close to
100kW without problems. They were using a 288V battery pack, which is
about right for a 150 to 180V RMS output.
>In terms of driving the motors, how complicated is it? I'm aware that you
>can get industrial (hideously expensive) inverters that vary the input
>frequency between (from the one's I've seen) 0-2KHz to vary the speed.
>Surely it's not too complicated to feed 3 sets of sine waves into a motor,
>compared to driving a DC motor using PWM?
It's not that 'complicated' but getting good reliability from power
stages does take a lot of engineering. Something that switches 400 volts
and 400 amps, at 10,000 or 20,000 Hz is something of a challenge,
actually. The various units sold by Metric Mind appear to be quite
nice - and automotive-designed. I have not used them myself, although
I would like to try them someday. If you are an electronics
designer by trade (as I am), I think you could learn to build a VFD
but I am pretty convinced that, for one or two drives, it would be
cheaper to buy them. In my power electronics experience, someone
designing one of these drives will probably blow up one or two sets
of IGBT's, and at that power level, one explosion (which will usually
take out all six IGBT's - and many parts on the driver board)
costs somewhere around $500. It's also loud, so wear hearing
protection when you crank it up.
Typically either a vector control or a slip-control algorithm will
be used, not an open-loop V/F as would be sufficient on a single-
speed device, which many industrial non-servo applications would
need. You also don't want a PID controller on motor speed. This
is quite difficult to drive - it's like fighting a cruise control
constantly, when you don't want it. The programming of some industrial
drives may allow this, but most I would expect would be set up
for either constant frequency output (open-loop), or closed-loop
speed regulation. You want neither of those for a vehicle.
>The only draw back I can see is the high voltage needed to drive the motors
>at their rated voltages. What is the effect of lowering the voltage on an
AC
>inductance motor?
Lower full-torque speed, lower power, slightly lower efficiency (because the
inherent voltage drops in IGBT's start to get more significant as the
voltages
are dropped.
Right now, using high voltage affects the battery cost, although
when you get above 13 or 14 12-volt batteries, you're in the right ballpark
for voltage. Battery balancing is a bit more of an issue just because you
have more batteries. Also, AC drives are somewhat more expensive than a
similar DC drive (at least, for a hobbyist) at this time. For an OEM, this
situation is likely reversed. The difference in cost vs. advantages of
AC would likely swing them into using an AC system, just as some
hobbyists do.
Despite the cost hit that an AC system provides, quite a few hobbyists have
built vehicles using various AC systems. The Metric Mind Siemens system
has been used quite a bit. If you search through the evalbum you'll see
various AC and BLDC systems in use - a BLDC (brushless DC) motor is more
related to an AC induction motor than it is to its brushed cousin - at least
in terms of electronics.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I feel there are 2 big reasons a BB/forum would be very beneficial -
even
> for dialup users.
>
> 1) Information is archived in threads. No searching through hundreds
of
> archived messages trying to track down small bits of data on a
topic. All
> related information is in one place and can be easily located with a
quick
> search. a FAQ section would take care of the endless "I'm new to EVs,
> which is better, AC or DC?" posts.
>
Go to http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/ and click
"messages", then click "group by topic".
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello from Edinburgh Simon !
A few months ago before I sourced a nice DC motor I did some writing
to various companies. There a lot of companies in the UK which make
AC motors, but not many of them are interested in DC.
www.brookcrompton.com have a comprehensive range of AC motors and
some drives, but I didn't research drives very much.
I'm working on refitting a 1995 Clio with an old milkfloat motor, an
SCR controller made from a hacked forklift SCR based speed
controller, and flooded lead acid cells.
Best Regards
Chris
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Simon Chambers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> After reading a lot of very interesting conversations over the past
few
> weeks, I have decided to post my first questions!
>
> I'm looking into building (well converting) my first EV car and I
am doing
> my initial background research. I've noticed that there seems a
very strong
> EV parts business in America with an equally strong following.
However in
> the UK there is a distinct lack of places on which to get parts.
>
> My main issue at the moment is locating reasonable affordable
motors. I see
> on evalbum that the Advance DC motor is extensively used in
conversions, and
> looking at the specs is understandable. Does anyone know of any UK
suppliers
> of EV motors that are at an affordable price?
>
> Alternatively, are there any good types of motor that can be used
in EV's?
> For example I've noticed that the series wound Winch Motors seem
very
> powerful (however I don't know what their life would be like in
continuous
> usage) or even forklift motors?
>
> Also why aren't 3-phase AC induction motor's (like what are
attached to
> lathes, mills, conveyor belts, etc) used in EV's? Since these
produce large
> amounts of reliable torque for long periods.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Simon
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its
simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine
> http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That EV may have not have any safety contactors to isolated the charging
voltage from the main contactor, controller and motor.
Also was batteries double insulated from the frame of the EV that is AC
ground?
Was there a on board GFCI and best to have a ground detecting systems that
measures any voltage leaking from the batteries to the any grounded
enclosure or frame that shuts off a the incoming AC power by use of a AC
magnetic enclose contactor. This ground detection system is normally use in
a higher voltage and ampere in industrial applications which can shut down a
pad mount transformer.
Is there a battery enclosure explosive proof ventilation system to exhaust
any fumes that is also prevents the cross ventilation of a battery charger?
Is there a interlock between the battery exhaust systems and charging
systems, as where the exhaust units comes on first to purge any fumes, than
20 seconds later, it turns on the AC power by means of a AC contactor.
Is all the batteries manufacture date the same date? I had 10 batteries
that were 10 months older that got slip into my new pack of 30, which blew
there tops the minute I press the accelerator.
Was there a BMS system use to prevent over or under charging?
If you are not using any of the above, as I do, I will be scare to turn on
the charger, as any of the above has blown up a EV or burn out components.
To test out to see how safe you EV is. Charge the batteries, with the
lights off or in the dark, and see if there is any small arcs from any of
the battery cases to a metal frame.
I had aluminum battery boxes at one time, and I had many arc over which you
cannot see in the light but only when its dark.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ted C." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 9:21 AM
Subject: Re: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames in San Francisco - again!
> "That vehicle was plugged in at the time, prompting GGNRA officials to
> adopt
> a policy requiring that
> unattended vehicles be left unplugged, Weideman said."
>
> Does this mean I should go grab a lawn chair and sit in front of my EV for
> 8
> hours?
>
> Ted
> Olympia, WA
> N47 02.743 W122 53.772
> Thank GOD for Thomas Edison. Without him we would all be watching TV by
> candle light.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV List" <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 3:26 PM
> Subject: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames in San Francisco - again!
>
>
> > At first I thought this was a hoax, similar to the stories about
> > hollywood
> > celebrities whose cars had burst into flames inside their houses.
> >
> > I still think it's arson. But whatever the case, it's real:
> >
> >
> > http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/01/26/BAGGONPRBP14.DTL
> > Fire closes Warming Hut
> > Electric car outside Crissy Field cafe bursts into flames
> > (01-26) 13:25 PST -- An electric vehicle parked outside the Warming Hut
> > at
> > Crissy Field caught fire early this morning, damaging the popular cafe
> > and
> > gift shop so severely that it will remain closed for several weeks while
> > the
> > National Park Service makes repairs.
> >
> > Golden Gate Bridge security officers saw a two-story pillar of flame
> > shortly
> > after midnight and alerted the Park Service Fire Department, which
> > extinguished the fire within 30 minutes, said Rich Weideman, a spokesman
> > for
> > the Golden Gate National Recreation Area.
> >
> > Investigators determined the blaze started with an electrical fire in a
> > nearby Gem electric vehicle, but they do not know what went wrong with
> > the
> > vehicle, Weideman said. The vehicle was unplugged and parked on the west
> > side of the Warming Hut, he said.
> >
> > The fire caused relatively little damage, but the smoke it generated and
> > the
> > water used to extinguish it made a mess of the building and its
> > inventory,
> > Weideman said.
> >
> > The Warming Hut is among the park's most popular buildings, a place
> > where
> > tourists and locals alike grab a cup of coffee, a bite to eat and a
> > souvenir. With the Warming Hut boarded up, visitors are encouraged to
> > visit
> > the Crissy Cafe not far away at the Crissy Center.
> >
> > Today's fire was the second time a Gem vehicle has caught fire at the
> > Golden
> > Gate National Recreation Area. One of the DaimlerChrysler-made vehicles
> > caught fire a year ago at Alcatraz Island. That vehicle was plugged in
> > at
> > the time, prompting GGNRA officials to adopt a policy requiring that
> > unattended vehicles be left unplugged, Weideman said.
> >
> > In both cases, the vehicles "burned literally to the frame," and
> > investigators suspect a problem with the vehicles' batteries or wiring,
> > Weideman said. Park authorities contacted DaimlerChrysler after last
> > year's
> > fire and were told the automaker was not aware of any problems, Weideman
> > said.
> >
> > Park officials have once again contacted DaimlerChrysler and will be
> > working
> > with the company to determine what went wrong. In the meantime, the park
> > and
> > the Golden Gate National Park Conservancy, the park's nonprofit
> > fundraising
> > and outreach arm, are reviewing their policies regarding the use and
> > storage
> > of Gem vehicles, Weideman said.
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ref
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/85036
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/85079
I fear one defective GEM will bring in stupid people to make stupid
decisions affecting all EVs (like unplugging unattended EVs).
I hope the SF EAA Chapter is contacted and is working on this to
keep intelligent, knowledgeable EV drivers involved with any
decision making.
I also hope this incident is clarified with the media that it is a
GEM issue, not all EVs burst into flames.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Need Mail bonding?
Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users.
http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry,
Sorry to hear about the unfortunate events. I've been sitting around with
a herring on my tongue (baited breath) waiting to see what a finished
Freedom looks like. I will be looking forward to seeing its performance even
if the
paint job is a little tacky.
Somebody take lots of pictures at BBB.
Yours,
Pat
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sushrut,
It is a personal choice of what battery chemistry one uses.
I have been using lead acid since 1992. My EV is my only
transporation, it does what I need it to do.
For me to switch to a higher density battery pack, I would incurr:
-a higher pack cost
-a need for a battery management box/system that is currently not
available off the shelf
-and I would need to ensure my charger will charge that pack
correctly without damaging it
The above points are a major hurdle for many people who have
realized that a lead-acid pack does 90% or more of their driving
needs.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
____________________________________________________________________________________
Want to start your own business?
Learn how on Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/r-index
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
bruce parmenter wrote:
> I also hope this incident is clarified with the media that it is a
> GEM issue, not all EVs burst into flames.
Certainly a more reasonable position than what others seem to be taking,
but not quite fair, nonetheless.
It is not at all clear that this is a GEM issue, and it is certainly not
the case that GEMs are the only EVs that burst into flames (it wasn't
that long ago that a California EVDL member's 914 loaded with Optima YTs
burst into flames despite also not being plugged in at the time).
Bear in mind that GEMs are likely the most numerous on-road EVs at
present (I've heard numbers of like 8-10k or more GEM vehicles in the
field), so even if they are no more likely to burst into flames than any
other EV, odds are that we will hear of more GEMs doing so than any
other simply because of their greater numbers.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, gotta jump in to this one...
Re: whether it's useful to tell GM that we want to buy the Volt...I guess my
question would be, why wouldn't you? Even if you believe GM will never build
it, it is crucial that we as consumers continue to demonstrate demand. If
you don't, and GM doesn't build this car, you've handed them a reason why.
If you do, and they still don't build it, it calls them out- let's face it,
demand for the EV1 would have been a lot harder to prove without the 5,000
person waiting list. The truth is that there is and always was demand for
plug-in cars- but we've nothing to gain by not getting that truth out there
at every opportinity.
I'm not at all naive in this, of course, especially when it comes to GM-
what happened with the EV1 is as personal to me as anyone. But being
encouraged by the Volt announcement is not the same as letting them off the
hook for EV1- indeed, many of the people whom I feel did the most damage to
the EV1 program are no longer there anyhow, and I personally think it's more
productive at this point to move forward than look back. Bob and I were in
Detroit with Chris Paine for the Volt announcement, and between that and
other meetings, I've have had many hours of recent conversation with both
the Volt designers and engineers as well as the execs and PR folks. A lot
can happen between concept car and showroom, and ultimately, I'm going to
judge them on what they do, not what they say. But all pr spin aside, there
is a level of commitment and sincerity in the individuals involved that I've
not seen in years- and I know for certain that we've collectively played a
part in the fact that they're even pursuing this direction again; not only
do I hope they follow through, I think it's crucial for the future of the
company. Do I wish they'd never taken the detour? Of course...but this is
exactly what we've been working for, and if we can't allow the slightest
optimism, I have to wonder why we're bothering?
The reality is that not one of the car companies behaved honorably with
respect to their EV programs. But I also believe that while they each have a
lot of ground to make up, none of them are beyond redemption. To the extent
that any of them are wanting to take a step in a better direction, I think
it's important to allow them to take it (or not) before we judge.
chelsea
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before, More Comments.
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:10:09 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Martin K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before
>
> Martin:
>
> You are about to fall into GM's public relations trap. I am sure that
some
> guy in tie and suit is giggling about how his sting got GM some good
> headlines. GM will never built the 'Volt' - at least not as long as they
> can sell their cheapo gas guzzlers. They are not serious, never have
been.
>
> Michaela
>
Right on Michaela!
>
> > This may be true, but I don't think it hurts to try. We don't have an
> > affordable real EV car available so it's not like we're in a position
to
> > spite GM over their past fallacies.
> > --
> > Martin K
> > I hope we DO have the beginnings of some production EV's. Lee is
working on the Sunrise , all it takes is a bit of money. Retired, so don't
have as much as I usta! Jerry is about to roll out the Freedom, but they
aren't 'There" quite yet. But a hellova lot closer than last year.I'm not
begging for money here. I hope the cars will speak for themselves, soon,
never TOO soon. Gas WILL go up again, the Oil Co's are just waiting for
something to happen, somewhere, that they can use as an excuse. Hurricane,
somebody farts in the Middle East? They can come up with some pretty
creative excuses. We have to be ready! Maybe if Jerry or Lee sold some
stock? Isn't that how Henry Ford started? Or could get some sort of loan
from the EV community? I would go for an interest free type loan, if it
could come to that? How many guyz, an' gals on the List? Over a thou?
EVerybody kicked in two bux a month? Or; (gasp!) 5 or 10?? Still less than
going to a movie in NYC! Most of us come in between, somewhere: buying a
Tesla, to just getting by from paycheck to paycheck? I mean like we COULD
throw a bit of seed money when it comes time.OK I'll stop, now. No
Begathons
yet! Just some brainstorms; bring it on back!
> > Doug McKee wrote:
> >> I feel many are missing a small point. GM already had one and for
> >> reasons of their own, plus the oil guys, unfettered by the fed,
etc,.,
> >> etc., decided to crush the project. The volt won't be ready for about
> >> 3-5 years at the earliest, which is, believe me, the calculated time
the
> >> American public will remain apathetically inactive and the automakers
> >> and oil guys can ignore us with impunity.
> >>
> >> Doug
And they will! "Stay the course" as our Dear Leader sez! And how
many
Sheeple say; " Geees! I NEVER knew all this actually happened", after
seeing
WKtEC, and" I lent out your DVD to the guyz at work" Why I rarely "see" my
copies of WKtEV!
> >>Hi EVerybody;Again
Volt? Yeah Right?Phooey! GM HAD the EV-1 which was better by far than
the Volt. If they HAD to do a @#$%^ Hybrid, use the EV-1, tuck a gas, or
Diseasel engine aboard, EVen a rear bumper clamp-on, taken along as needed.
You pick it up at the Charge Station on the way to Aunt Tilly's in Toledo.
"Charge Station?"Yup! I think they would spring up along the interstates,
like with GM's help, IF they were serious about EV's? EVen our crappy home
made cars , conversions, would be of full usefullness, if we could dump
aboard several hundred amps during coffee or piss breaks?Thought for the
day; How good , convenient, would your GAS car be if there were no gas
stations?IF ya had to buy gas in one liter cans at a drug store??
Well, with GM sitting on the nmh patents it wouldn't take much for
them
to use Stan Ovshinski's batteries? Sheesh! GM was sitting on top of the
World, a few years ago, and they threw it away!Shame on them! Gunna need a
real Regime Change at GM to get anything becides the reVOLTing thing. Smoke
and mirrers. Sigh! But I voted early and often as they used to say.
Seeya at BBB
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Jan 2007 at 22:02, Jerry McIntire wrote:
> haven't found any insurance companies mentioned as
> writing EV insurance other than The Hartford. Some others people are
> insured with?
Westfield. I've never had a problem.
Well, almost. When I first called up with the Comuta-Car, my agent said,
"It's a WHAT? I'll have to call you back." But she did call back, a day
later, after talking to the head office, and she wrote the policy.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
