EV Digest 6354
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames - EVLN(GEM nEV besmirches EV's
reputatio
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) One hand behind your back.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) RE: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames - EVLN(GEM nEV besmirches EV's
reputation)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: One hand behind your back.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Debating purchasing an EV
by Jay Paroline <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Starting out on a EV in the UK
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does a Terminal Get? Not
very, it shouldn't!)
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does a Terminal Get? Not
very, it shouldn't!)
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames in San Francisco - again!
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Starting out on a EV in the UK
by nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Electric Vehicle bursts into flames in San Francisco - again!
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Town car V's, Fla EV lectures today, Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Drag racing EV's batteries -bursting- into -flames-???
Not exactly, doesn't happen that way. Generally there is (maybe) a flash and
a puff of smoke when a battery vaporizes an internal cell interconnection.
(2000+ amps can do that)
I have found that virtually anything that happens with gasoline is much more
of a hazard.
(twenty plus years as an auto mechanic, I have watched the flames wrap
themselves around my eyeballs as they exited the carburetor throat during
backfire)
We do occasionally have a fire. Usually a short circuit that doesn't get
shut down correctly.
A certain chopped-up Geo Metro with way-too-many motors comes to mind,
though these types of fires are rare.
In an EV, stuff usually just vaporizes and the fire goes out quickly.
But... John Wayland makes plasma balls.
(OK, just the one time :^D ) See the EVDL archives for the details as to how
"Plasma Boy" got his name.
If an EV is assembled safely, and folks working on it observe basic safety
procedures, the creation of a plasma ball is highly unlikely. (you wanna
vaporize a soaking wet beach towel? We can do that, details in the "plasma
boy" story)
It is highly unlikely that anyone is going to get hurt due to fire in an
electric racing situation.
Can't say the same for NASCAR or the NHRA. Got Nitromethane?
Electrocution is much more likely to kill. I have been zapped by Gone Postal
while charging. Really bites. Close to 300 volts DC. Always hold one hand
behind your back when in doubt. It is the -through-the-heart- current that
will gitcha. (the White Zombie is closer to 400V during charging, Be
Careful!)
OK... now that I said this Murphy is gonna be after me :-0
Got fire extinguishers?
Duuuoh!
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Director
www.nedra.com
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Well, in a full size truck, I hang a red flag on the long lumber.
> A lumber rack is an option on any truck. I'd just like to be able to
> carry plywood flat without too many contortions.
>
> >You indicated that you are not small. I am 6'3" and sit very
> >comfortable in this '94 S10 PU.
>
> It's been a while since I tried the various small trucks. Last time
> I went looking, I had "knees hitting the steering column" problems in
> just about all of them.
>
>
If you really *need* a full-sized truck, how about making an SVO/WVO
conversion of a diesel? Might be better use of your time, much less
money, and just as low an environmental impact as a lead sled.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's been about 60 years since I heard it, but about 1928 a study was made of
electrocutions. About 90% had burns on their left hand. That led to the rule
to keep your LEFT hand behind your back.
John in Sylmar, CA
PV
EV
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > > ... at the drags just this last year at PIR three separate
> > > EVs popped batteries within a couple hours of each other,
> > > one of the cars catching fire
> The 914 that burst into flames was equipped with Rudman regs; while
> discussion on what might have happened kind of fizzled out, shunt/bypass
> style regs such as this could fail such that they load a battery outside
> of their normal abilities and cause something to smolder/burn. This
> could happen even though the vehicle's main contactor(s) is(are) open
> and there is no charge discharge load on the pack at the time.
It wasn't the 914...it was the highly modified GEO w/10-ETEKs and it wasn't
due to anyone's regs as there were no regs, as I recall these were floodies.
I don't recall hearing what did cause this one.
Sure, the 914 blew a battery also that nite---an AGM as I recall.
But I don't know that I ever heard anything about regs being an issue.
The Zombie let the smoke out of a Hawker that nite also.
The Hawker dead center in the pack...i.e. the hottest one.
Whether keeping the batteries cooler would've helped is anyone's guess.
It would be nice to hear what the root cause of these were so we can all
learn from others' mistakes.
-MT, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>John, the point you are missing is that a compact truck will get better
>>range with a 1200 lb battery back than one of these behemoths will with a
>>2400 lb pack.
>>Porbably have more payload capacity too.
>
> Where are you getting your numbers? I haven't found ones for a
> Toyota small truck.
Edmunds.com list specs going back 10-15 years.
Up until '92 Toyota made a 1 ton compact pickup. It had a payload
capacity of 2500 lbs. After that they dropped down under 2,000 lbs.
> I was looking at an F250 with a 3300 lb capacity, which came out to
I believe the 3300 lbs is total capacity and includes the driver. The
listed /payload/ capacity for a 2006 is 3100 lbs, unless you go with
upgraded suspension, etc.
> Good comment on fitting the batteries. I'll have to do some more
> checking on that. I can't just ask somebody, since it looks like
> nobody has tried converting a big truck.
If I get a chance, I'll take some measurements tomorrow. It won't be
exact, since I have the extended cab, but should be close. Given the
ground clearance, at least there is enough hight under there.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The extra drag from having panels mounted on the roof will probably erase
any extra range they give...and then some.
> with a flat roof u can add light weight solar cells for range extension
> and all the batteries can fir under a false floor in the cargo area this
> has possiblites !! there was and may still be a ev van on ev finder that
> was converted for the us navy for sell check it out may be a better fit
> than you think
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John G. Lussmyer<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:53 PM
> Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
>
>
> At 03:41 PM 1/27/2007, JS wrote:
> >My first car is an EV and gets over 95% of my driving. After
> >searching for an 8 or 12 passenger new or used van for 3 months I
> >almost gave up.
> >
> >I tried Enterprise Used Car sales on the internet.
> >They had eight 15 passenger 2001 vans! They were a year old, from car
> pools,
> >with about 20,000 miles on them. When I took out the 3 rear seats I can
> carry
>
> Your point is?
> I have an EV (a Sparrow). I have a car for long trips. I have a
> Pickup truck for big loads.
> I'd LIKE to have a Electric Pickup truck.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, I was always taught to keep one hand in your pocket. Same basic
principle, except it's a bit harder to pull your hand out of your pocket
without thinking about it.
Which hand you choose, depends on whether you are right or left handed.
> It's been about 60 years since I heard it, but about 1928 a study was made
> of
> electrocutions. About 90% had burns on their left hand. That led to the
> rule
> to keep your LEFT hand behind your back.
>
> John in Sylmar, CA
> PV
> EV
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
> http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I am new to this list, and new to the world of EV's in general, but
not new to the idea of trying to save gas and use modes of
transportation that are more eco-friendly. I was commuting on a
motorcycle for a while, but a 70mph brush with death on the freeway
has me back in 4 wheels. Public transportation isn't available and
riding a bicycle isn't practical for every day, which brings me to EV's.
The EV community seems to be full of DIY-ers, with most people taking
a traditional ICE car and ripping out everything ICE related. I
applaud those people, but I also remember the battle I lost with my
car when I tried to replace the starter. I am not mechanically
inclined, and I have no illusion of being able to remove an engine
and all related parts, and then install something new that would
actually function safely. Hence, I am considering buying a vehicle
that someone else has converted. The particular vehicle I'm
considering is a 1994 Chevy S-10 that was converted from the factory
as part of a business venture that didn't work out. It has only 6,000
miles on it and, according to my father who looked at it, is in
perfect condition having been stored in a garage. The reason it
hasn't been used much is that the owner lives on the top of a
mountain, in VT (where my parents also live). I'm in FL, so I have no
way to look at it myself. The owner is asking $5,800 without batteries.
My questions are:
1. What sort of questions should I ask before buying?
2. Is $5,800 a reasonable price for such a vehicle? Is it reasonable
to pay that much, plus another $850 to have it shipped, plus another
$2,000+ to put batteries in it?
3. If something breaks, how hard is it going to be for me to get it
running again? I am fairly technical and understand electronics
fairly well, much better than mechanical stuff anyway, and the truck
supposedly comes with all the original design information, but I
recognize that there may be problems I can't diagnose. If that
happens, what do I do? Have any of you had difficulty figuring out
what's wrong with your EV and getting it working? What did you do?
$8,000-10,000 is an awful lot of money to pay for a vehicle that
could stop working and become unfixable, and for that much money I'd
need to be sure it would last me a long time.
4. Is there a better alternative? In all honesty I don't need a
truck, a small car (even a Commutacar) would suffice as long as it's
capable of at least 40mph, I just haven't seen anything like that
even remotely close to where I live, or close to my parents so I
would have to buy it sight unseen.
Any suggestions would be wonderful. I am also perusing the archives
and will see if I find anything useful there.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Simon,
Where in the UK are you?
BEVOB - The regional South-West group of the BVS are having our
monthly meet next Sunday, March 4th in Bristol. This time we'll be
having a mini lecture on Motors, including details of where you can
get them from!
Regards
Nikki
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
On Jan 26, 2007, at 11:48 PM, Simon Chambers wrote:
Hi,
After reading a lot of very interesting conversations over the past
few
weeks, I have decided to post my first questions!
I'm looking into building (well converting) my first EV car and I
am doing
my initial background research. I've noticed that there seems a
very strong
EV parts business in America with an equally strong following.
However in
the UK there is a distinct lack of places on which to get parts.
My main issue at the moment is locating reasonable affordable
motors. I see
on evalbum that the Advance DC motor is extensively used in
conversions, and
looking at the specs is understandable. Does anyone know of any UK
suppliers
of EV motors that are at an affordable price?
Alternatively, are there any good types of motor that can be used
in EV's?
For example I've noticed that the series wound Winch Motors seem very
powerful (however I don't know what their life would be like in
continuous
usage) or even forklift motors?
Also why aren't 3-phase AC induction motor's (like what are
attached to
lathes, mills, conveyor belts, etc) used in EV's? Since these
produce large
amounts of reliable torque for long periods.
Kind Regards,
Simon
___________________________________________________________
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its
simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor,
Copper cleaner seems to clean up copper surfaces pretty well. It
is a paste, as you probably know. Wonder if mixing it up into a
liquid and soaking the cable end would work. I think
sandpapering those little strands (and there are a lot of them)
would just friz and break them up into a horrible... Afro.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 3:55 PM
Subject: RE: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does a
Terminal Get? Not very, it shouldn't!)
> Chuck,
>
> I do not have a use for them at this time, but if I am going
> to do a conversion, I rather have some cable lying around
> that I can re-use than buying new at that time.
>
> To re-use it, I will likely cut the insulation from the end
> where the lug goes, use sand-paper to expose raw copper in
> all strands, dip it in NoAlOx to avoid further trouble and
> crimp a lug on, then measure resistance to see if it is in
> an acceptable range. I don't know how thick the strands are,
> if they are really thin then it may be a problem to get it
> to work this way and I will need to search for a way to
> improve contact or sort out the cables that are still
> usable. With this price it is hard to go wrong.
>
> Yes, I infrequently visit the San Jose and Palo Alto EAA
> meetings, I am in good contact with several members that
> do visit frequently, for example Ron Freund needs to there
> every meeting because he has the keys to the HP building.
>
> Let me know how many cable you got and it is OK if you find
> someone else that needs it - I have no use for it now, just
> thought it to be a waste to trash it, rather have it in stock.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Second Life:
www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Chuck Hursch
> Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2007 2:11 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does
a
> Terminal Get? Not very, it shouldn't!)
>
>
> Cor,
>
> The more I started thinking about it, yep, the more it seemed a
> shame to throw it out, since copper and other natural resources
> are coming more and more into demand, to the point of people
> stealing copper wiring (I think one or two of the EV chargers
out
> there may have met their demise this way, according to what I
> remember reading on the evchargernews.com postings). Heck,
maybe
> I had better be worried about my EV for a different reason, and
> that is those two long 2/0 copper cables between the front and
> rear packs - that is a substantial amount of copper to steal.
> (Just kidding...) Fortunately, those long guys are from the
> original VoltsRabbit kit, and they seem just fine.
>
> Anyways, Cor, you go to any of the EAA meetings on the
Peninsula,
> or even in San Jose? I get down there once in awhile, so I
could
> bring the cabling with me. I'll weigh it with the insulation
on
> once I'm done recabling the battery interconnects, and see just
> what I have with a rough subtraction for the insulation. What
> would you do with the copper to salvage it? These are like 7"
to
> 10" pieces with the lugs cut off. Crimping down on oxidized
> strands don't work, so you'll have to copper creme them or
> something, frizzing out all the strands.
>
> Chuck
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 4:10 PM
> Subject: RE: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does
a
> Terminal Get? Not very, it shouldn't!)
>
>
> > Chuck,
> >
> > Many EV'ers around here (I am in Santa Clara county, south
> > of SF Bay) and I think that you cable is salvageable with
> > some manual rework, so don't thrash it just yet.
> > If you find no better offers, then I will be happy to give
> > you double what you already were offered and pay for shipping
> > if I don't travel up north soon, I also have a colleage in
> > Petaluma, so he may be able to pick those cables up.
> >
> > Others in SF may have interest in the cables as well.
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private:
> http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Second Life:
> www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of Chuck Hursch
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:23 PM
> > To: EVDL post
> > Subject: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does a
> Terminal
> > Get? Not very, it shouldn't!)
> >
> >
> > I am generating some used cable as I am going through my
pack,
> > putting new cables in to replace the old ones that were
getting
> > hot (which were most all of the cables made at the
installation
> > of the second pack in my car some five years ago - apparently
> > defective cable that had some oxidation on the strands - I'll
> try
> > to post about that some other time). The point of this post
is
> > that a fellow EV'er (and I believe he is on the EVDL also)
> > prompted me to think about recycling that cable, when I
> mentioned
> > I was going to throw the old stuff out. Well, I called my
> local
> > recycler, Marin Recycling (Marin is the county where I live),
> and
> > they gave me a price of 58 cents/pound, with the insulation
> > removed from the cable. I doubt it's going to be more than a
> > couple of pounds with the insulation off. Even if it was ten
> > pounds, it would barely be worth my time to slice the
> insulation
> > off the copper and drive it to the recycling place. There's
> just
> > not that much of it. Anybody have different numbers/pound?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chuck
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So it looks like, Joseph, the price is down significantly from
your older quote of $2/lb, although on average maybe better than
my Marin Recycler's price of $0.58/lb. Well, I'll hang on to the
stuff, and maybe give it to Cor or cohorts in the South Bay. It
is fine strand copper cable.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph H. Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 7:11 PM
Subject: Re: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does a
Terminal Get? Not very, it shouldn't!)
> I talked to her again yesterday, and it seems she had quoted me
for stripped
> #1 (pencil lead size or larger). They are paying between $.48
and $1.00 a
> pound for unstripped small wire.
>
> Joseph H. Strubhar
>
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 9:29 PM
> Subject: RE: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does
a Terminal
> Get? Not very, it shouldn't!)
>
>
> > Spot price of a pound of copper is at $2.65 right now.
> > At 3.1g each a pre-1982 copper penny is worth 1.8 cents
> > Back in October when it was up to $3.50/lb that penny was
worth 2.4 cents.
> > Save your wire and save your pennys :-)
> > Taking $0.58/lb for the wore isn't worth it. But getting $2+
just might
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Behalf Of Joseph H. Strubhar
> > > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 5:45 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: Re: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot
Does a
> > > Terminal Get? Not very, it shouldn't!)
> > >
> > >
> > > I'd say you're geting ripped off by the recyclers - I
recently got a
> quote
> > > of over $2.00 per pound for dirty copper, that is, with the
insulation
> ON.
> > >
> > > I'll be selling some shortly - we'll see what price I
actually get!
> > >
> > > Joseph H. Strubhar
> > >
> > > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: "EVDL post" <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 2:22 PM
> > > Subject: old copper cable recycling (WAS: Re: How Hot Does
a Terminal
> Get?
> > > Not very, it shouldn't!)
> > >
> > >
> > > > I am generating some used cable as I am going through my
pack,
> > > > putting new cables in to replace the old ones that were
getting
> > > > hot (which were most all of the cables made at the
installation
> > > > of the second pack in my car some five years ago -
apparently
> > > > defective cable that had some oxidation on the strands -
I'll try
> > > > to post about that some other time). The point of this
post is
> > > > that a fellow EV'er (and I believe he is on the EVDL
also)
> > > > prompted me to think about recycling that cable, when I
mentioned
> > > > I was going to throw the old stuff out. Well, I called
my local
> > > > recycler, Marin Recycling (Marin is the county where I
live), and
> > > > they gave me a price of 58 cents/pound, with the
insulation
> > > > removed from the cable. I doubt it's going to be more
than a
> > > > couple of pounds with the insulation off. Even if it was
ten
> > > > pounds, it would barely be worth my time to slice the
insulation
> > > > off the copper and drive it to the recycling place.
There's just
> > > > not that much of it. Anybody have different
numbers/pound?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > > Chuck
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > > > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > > > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.11/652 -
Release Date:
> 1/25/2007
> > > 3:32 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.12/653 - Release
Date: 1/26/2007
> 11:11 AM
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As if the vehicle WON'T catch fire if someone's looking at it??
If it's going to happen, it's going to happen whether it's being watched
or not. So you could be there to unplug it... but that may or may not
fix it. If it's a battery shorting itself out, the plug is hardly the
issue.
Danny
Ted C. wrote:
"That vehicle was plugged in at the time, prompting GGNRA officials to
adopt a policy requiring that
unattended vehicles be left unplugged, Weideman said."
Does this mean I should go grab a lawn chair and sit in front of my EV
for 8 hours?
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
Thank GOD for Thomas Edison. Without him we would all be watching TV
by candle light.
\
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Jay,
There are a lot of important factors needed to figure out whether you'd be
getting something you want and can use. First and foremost of these is what
your commute looks like and how much range you need, both on a daily basis
and on those occasions when you need to do something outside the bounds of
your regular commute. You'll notice that when someone writes about how they
use their EV on the list, they usually say something like "I use my EV for
90 percent of my driving needs". The part to remember about that is that
the other 10 percent is being done using something else. If the EV will be
your only vehicle you'll have to consider carefully whether it's a practical
choice. I use my EV to commute to and from work and ride around on the
weekend but I have to drive my other car whenever I have to pick up my
daughter or have anywhere else to go that day.
As to whether the vehicle is worth it and whether it's worth shipping --
well that's going to depend a lot on what the vehicle has in it in terms of
equipment (AC or DC? What kind of motor? Controller? Charger?
Instrumentation?) and more importantly how much it's worth to you not to
have an ICE. For most of us, the additional cost of having an EV is worth
it to be part of a pioneering group of folks. Very few of us have EVs
because we think they cost less and even fewer have EVs that are actually
saving them a lot of money. Don't get me wrong -- I firmly believe that
looked at from a long-term perspective many EVs can save you money and save
the environment.
Getting back to whether the S-10 is worth $5800 without the batteries:
Let's assume for now that the vehicle works well and the conversion was done
well (I would definitely try to find a way to test it before you buy and
ship). Looking at this from a strictly financial point of view, it's
extremely likely that the parts in the vehicle are worth much more than that
new (an inexpensive DC motor/controller S-10 kit from KTA will run you
between $5500 and $6400+). If they've been kept well, the parts plus the
chassis are probably worth more than $5800 even after accounting for age.
How about the market? What are people willing to pay? That's a tougher
one. You can do some searches online and come up with some values of past
sales (especially for sales that went through ebay) but be careful to
compare apples to apples, which is tough to do with an EV because they are
nearly all custom jobs.
My personal feeling is that it's a little high but I've seen lesser vehicles
go for more during the last oil price surge. Also remember that there may
be a lot of other things that you may have to replace or change, like new
tires or even a new enclosure for the batteries if you want to change type
of battery and the new batts are a different form-factor.
Overall, though, I don't think the costs are unreasonable given what you're
getting. I don't think the shipping is unreasonable either, or the
batteries.
I wouldn't worry too much about repair, either. EVs are very easy to
maintain. You also have a lot of folks here on the list who will give you
advice. Finally, you live in EV paradise because of all the golf cart
mechanics in Florida. Any competent forklift or golf cart mechanic should
be able to help you with your EV.
Again, whether you want to do this has more to do with your passion than
with almost anything else. If it were me I'd take it slow, think carefully
about what you want, explore all the options, and even get in touch with
other EVers there in Florida. You've got quite an amazing bunch of folks
down there and someone might even know of an EV you can get into a lot
closer to where you are! After all, the money you save on freight can go
toward better batteries!
Matt
On 1/28/07, Jay Paroline <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello,
I am new to this list, and new to the world of EV's in general, but
not new to the idea of trying to save gas and use modes of
transportation that are more eco-friendly. I was commuting on a
motorcycle for a while, but a 70mph brush with death on the freeway
has me back in 4 wheels. Public transportation isn't available and
riding a bicycle isn't practical for every day, which brings me to EV's.
The EV community seems to be full of DIY-ers, with most people taking
a traditional ICE car and ripping out everything ICE related. I
applaud those people, but I also remember the battle I lost with my
car when I tried to replace the starter. I am not mechanically
inclined, and I have no illusion of being able to remove an engine
and all related parts, and then install something new that would
actually function safely. Hence, I am considering buying a vehicle
that someone else has converted. The particular vehicle I'm
considering is a 1994 Chevy S-10 that was converted from the factory
as part of a business venture that didn't work out. It has only 6,000
miles on it and, according to my father who looked at it, is in
perfect condition having been stored in a garage. The reason it
hasn't been used much is that the owner lives on the top of a
mountain, in VT (where my parents also live). I'm in FL, so I have no
way to look at it myself. The owner is asking $5,800 without batteries.
My questions are:
1. What sort of questions should I ask before buying?
2. Is $5,800 a reasonable price for such a vehicle? Is it reasonable
to pay that much, plus another $850 to have it shipped, plus another
$2,000+ to put batteries in it?
3. If something breaks, how hard is it going to be for me to get it
running again? I am fairly technical and understand electronics
fairly well, much better than mechanical stuff anyway, and the truck
supposedly comes with all the original design information, but I
recognize that there may be problems I can't diagnose. If that
happens, what do I do? Have any of you had difficulty figuring out
what's wrong with your EV and getting it working? What did you do?
$8,000-10,000 is an awful lot of money to pay for a vehicle that
could stop working and become unfixable, and for that much money I'd
need to be sure it would last me a long time.
4. Is there a better alternative? In all honesty I don't need a
truck, a small car (even a Commutacar) would suffice as long as it's
capable of at least 40mph, I just haven't seen anything like that
even remotely close to where I live, or close to my parents so I
would have to buy it sight unseen.
Any suggestions would be wonderful. I am also perusing the archives
and will see if I find anything useful there.
Thanks!
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I should mention that Peter is also a really nice chap. He runs
Lithium Ion ThunderSkys with his motor and seems to get on very well
with it :)
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
On Jan 27, 2007, at 2:20 PM, Dale Curren wrote:
** Reply to message from "Simon Chambers"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Sat,
27 Jan 2007 02:48:13 -0000
Here's a fellow in your part of the world. He uses AC motor too.
http://www.evconvert.com/article/peters-solar-van-ii
Dale Curren
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I have the solution. Hire a homeless guy or whoever to "watch" your EV
charge while you go on your merry way. Nobody said he had to have
qualifications. Maybe go by Home Depot, pick up a day laborer.
Danny
Ted C. wrote:
"That vehicle was plugged in at the time, prompting GGNRA officials
to adopt a policy requiring that
unattended vehicles be left unplugged, Weideman said."
Does this mean I should go grab a lawn chair and sit in front of my
EV for 8 hours?
Ted
Olympia, WA
N47 02.743 W122 53.772
Thank GOD for Thomas Edison. Without him we would all be watching TV
by candle light.
\
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Hi Peter, John and All,
I agree with Peter, unless there is another
reason you want to do the F250, all the other stuff you need
can come from a smaller, less costly to convert, pickup.
Changing the rear axle to a heavier one is a
2 hr job normally, Just loosen the bolts, brake lines, jack
up the truck rear, roll the axle out, roll the new one in
and lower, bolt it back, bleed brakes. The axles are had
cheap, under a couple hundred used, for about whatever gross
you want. Even using axles from other brands is fairly easy,
some are the same axle!!
If you think better brakes in front are
needed, and it doing the same range will take 1/3rd less
batteries so stock brakes may be good enough, you can just
bolt those from the axle donor as most are the same over a
product line. In trucks, it could be an 8 yr range of donors
sharing the same attachment points, ect. And don't forget
with more weight aft in EV's , the rear brakes can do much
more of the work without locking up.
To get a wider between wheels, you can get a
wider axle if needed or different rim offset and trim the
wheelwells so ply can load flat. Actually building a custom,
lightweight bed or better, aero camper shell could cut
weight, extend range 10-20% if any higher speed work is
needed and give you the space you need for batts, cargo.
As for leg, other room, you can buy lower
seats that will let you fit nicely. In the Freedom EV, I've
stuck Bob Rice, a good sized 6'5" with room to spare in much
less space than a smaller pickup has.
Eff is the key in Ev's, it's hard when you
start with such a high weight, aero, rolling drag hurdle.
I just wish Detroit, others would just make
small mini pickups again like they did in the 70's again
that would really carry weight, have 8'2" beds and smaller
frontal areas instead of only the monsters we now have. They
being very good EV conversion canidates is an added plus.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 01:33:37 -0700 (MST)
>>>John, the point you are missing is that a compact truck
>>>will get better range with a 1200 lb battery back than
>>>one of these behemoths will with a 2400 lb pack.
>>>Porbably have more payload capacity too.
>>
>> Where are you getting your numbers? I haven't found ones
>> for a Toyota small truck.
>
>Edmunds.com list specs going back 10-15 years.
>
>Up until '92 Toyota made a 1 ton compact pickup. It had a
>payload capacity of 2500 lbs. After that they dropped down
>under 2,000 lbs.
>
>> I was looking at an F250 with a 3300 lb capacity, which
>came out to
>
>I believe the 3300 lbs is total capacity and includes the
>driver. The listed /payload/ capacity for a 2006 is 3100
>lbs, unless you go with upgraded suspension, etc.
>
>> Good comment on fitting the batteries. I'll have to do
>> some more checking on that. I can't just ask somebody,
>> since it looks like nobody has tried converting a big
>truck.
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Hi Jay and All,
What factory built it? It's model number?
If a custom built, you need the info,
inventory on it's EV parts, then we can help you with it's
value.
If a DC truck, you are much safer, easier
to fix. If AC, some models are about useless as no support
and bad, not cost effective design.
Most factory built trucks have a webgroup,
normally on Yahoo, of other owners who are your best bet.
Your drive may have been used on other brands. There have
ben quite a few over the yrs, building 1 to a couple hunderd
before the company died.
Some of the least worthwhile are some from
the big 3 auto comanies while others by them are good, it
depends on the model, which drive they used.
You can buy a running DC S-10 conversion
for under $10k so you should shoot for a running cost under
that.
There are people in Fla who can help you
here.
Where in Fla are you?
If you can get to FAU in Jupiter today, do
it as there are around 100 EV'ers there today giving EV
lectures free and several EV pickups amoung the other EV's!!
It's east of I95 on Donald Ross road, on the north side
about 1 mile.
If you just need a small car, I would go
for the Pickup, but a small car like a Karmen Ghia for
higher speed work. An EV bug is around the best under 50 mph
towncar, EV conversion you can do. Needing a smaller,
cheaper battery pack, EV drive, ect you could do one for
under $2k with care. But it's aero means your range at
higher speeds than 50 mph will be short. But under 45mph
because of it's low weight, it's hard to beat.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jay Paroline <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Debating purchasing an EV
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2007 02:31:48 -0500
>Hello,
>
>I am new to this list, and new to the world of EV's in
>general, but not new to the idea of trying to save gas and
>use modes of transportation that are more eco-friendly. I
>was commuting on a motorcycle for a while, but a 70mph
>brush with death on the freeway has me back in 4 wheels.
>Public transportation isn't available and riding a bicycle
>isn't practical for every day, which brings me to EV's.
>
>The EV community seems to be full of DIY-ers, with most
>people taking a traditional ICE car and ripping out
>everything ICE related. I applaud those people, but I also
>remember the battle I lost with my car when I tried to
>replace the starter. I am not mechanically inclined, and I
>have no illusion of being able to remove an engine and all
>related parts, and then install something new that would
>actually function safely. Hence, I am considering buying a
>vehicle that someone else has converted. The particular
>vehicle I'm considering is a 1994 Chevy S-10 that was
>converted from the factory as part of a business venture
>that didn't work out. It has only 6,000 miles on it and,
>according to my father who looked at it, is in perfect
>condition having been stored in a garage. The reason it
>hasn't been used much is that the owner lives on the top of
>a mountain, in VT (where my parents also live). I'm in FL,
>so I have no way to look at it myself. The owner is asking
>$5,800 without batteries.
>
>My questions are:
>1. What sort of questions should I ask before buying?
>2. Is $5,800 a reasonable price for such a vehicle? Is it
>reasonable to pay that much, plus another $850 to have it
>shipped, plus another $2,000+ to put batteries in it?
>3. If something breaks, how hard is it going to be for me
>to get it running again? I am fairly technical and
>understand electronics fairly well, much better than
>mechanical stuff anyway, and the truck supposedly comes
>with all the original design information, but I recognize
>that there may be problems I can't diagnose. If that
>happens, what do I do? Have any of you had difficulty
>figuring out what's wrong with your EV and getting it
>working? What did you do? $8,000-10,000 is an awful lot of
>money to pay for a vehicle that could stop working and
>become unfixable, and for that much money I'd need to be
>sure it would last me a long time. 4. Is there a better
>alternative? In all honesty I don't need a truck, a small
>car (even a Commutacar) would suffice as long as it's
>capable of at least 40mph, I just haven't seen anything
>like that even remotely close to where I live, or close to
>my parents so I would have to buy it sight unseen.
>
>Any suggestions would be wonderful. I am also perusing the
>archives and will see if I find anything useful there.
>
>Thanks!
>
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--- Begin Message ---
go toev trading post @ www.austinev<http://www.austinev/> org it wii give
you a good feel
----- Original Message -----
From: Jay Paroline<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 1:31 AM
Subject: Debating purchasing an EV
Hello,
I am new to this list, and new to the world of EV's in general, but
not new to the idea of trying to save gas and use modes of
transportation that are more eco-friendly. I was commuting on a
motorcycle for a while, but a 70mph brush with death on the freeway
has me back in 4 wheels. Public transportation isn't available and
riding a bicycle isn't practical for every day, which brings me to EV's.
The EV community seems to be full of DIY-ers, with most people taking
a traditional ICE car and ripping out everything ICE related. I
applaud those people, but I also remember the battle I lost with my
car when I tried to replace the starter. I am not mechanically
inclined, and I have no illusion of being able to remove an engine
and all related parts, and then install something new that would
actually function safely. Hence, I am considering buying a vehicle
that someone else has converted. The particular vehicle I'm
considering is a 1994 Chevy S-10 that was converted from the factory
as part of a business venture that didn't work out. It has only 6,000
miles on it and, according to my father who looked at it, is in
perfect condition having been stored in a garage. The reason it
hasn't been used much is that the owner lives on the top of a
mountain, in VT (where my parents also live). I'm in FL, so I have no
way to look at it myself. The owner is asking $5,800 without batteries.
My questions are:
1. What sort of questions should I ask before buying?
2. Is $5,800 a reasonable price for such a vehicle? Is it reasonable
to pay that much, plus another $850 to have it shipped, plus another
$2,000+ to put batteries in it?
3. If something breaks, how hard is it going to be for me to get it
running again? I am fairly technical and understand electronics
fairly well, much better than mechanical stuff anyway, and the truck
supposedly comes with all the original design information, but I
recognize that there may be problems I can't diagnose. If that
happens, what do I do? Have any of you had difficulty figuring out
what's wrong with your EV and getting it working? What did you do?
$8,000-10,000 is an awful lot of money to pay for a vehicle that
could stop working and become unfixable, and for that much money I'd
need to be sure it would last me a long time.
4. Is there a better alternative? In all honesty I don't need a
truck, a small car (even a Commutacar) would suffice as long as it's
capable of at least 40mph, I just haven't seen anything like that
even remotely close to where I live, or close to my parents so I
would have to buy it sight unseen.
Any suggestions would be wonderful. I am also perusing the archives
and will see if I find anything useful there.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
