EV Digest 6355
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before, More Comments.
by "FRED JEANETTE MERTENS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: One hand behind your back.
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Converting ICE vehicles for profit
by "Roger Daisley @ R J Ranch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: One hand behind your back.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Debating purchasing an EV
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Listserv v. BB/forum
by Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Converting ICE vehicles for profit
by "Doug McKee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: We Have Kurt Kammerer's EV1, And We Like It!
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Listserv v. BB/forum
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Link 10 Question
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Listserv v. BB/forum
by xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Converting ICE vehicles for profit
by "Will Beckett \(becketts\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: One hand behind your back.
by "Peter Gabrielsson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
19) Re: Sushrut
by "sushrut patgaonkar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: a few configurations
by "sushrut patgaonkar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before, More Comments
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
what is an avo/wvo
----- Original Message -----
From: Death to All Spammers<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:18 AM
Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle
> Well, in a full size truck, I hang a red flag on the long lumber.
> A lumber rack is an option on any truck. I'd just like to be able to
> carry plywood flat without too many contortions.
>
> >You indicated that you are not small. I am 6'3" and sit very
> >comfortable in this '94 S10 PU.
>
> It's been a while since I tried the various small trucks. Last time
> I went looking, I had "knees hitting the steering column" problems in
> just about all of them.
>
>
If you really *need* a full-sized truck, how about making an SVO/WVO
conversion of a diesel? Might be better use of your time, much less
money, and just as low an environmental impact as a lead sled.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hey Chelsaea how about proposing to the higher ups the they troal for sale
like the folks @ chrysler did with the pwowler ? come upwith a good design .
market a limited edition with a fair market value if it goes over they
increase to the max # of orders if not then .... *they were PROVEN correct *
evs don't or wont sell
----- Original Message -----
From: Roy LeMeur<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before, More Comments.
Chelsea Sexton wrote:
>I've have had many hours of recent conversation with both
>the Volt designers and engineers as well as the execs and PR folks. A lot
>can happen between concept car and showroom, and ultimately, I'm going to
>judge them on what they do, not what they say. But all pr spin aside, there
>is a level of commitment and sincerity in the individuals involved that
>I've
>not seen in years- and I know for certain that we've collectively played a
>part in the fact that they're even pursuing this direction again; not only
>do I hope they follow through, I think it's crucial for the future of the
>company. Do I wish they'd never taken the detour? Of course...but this is
>exactly what we've been working for, and if we can't allow the slightest
>optimism, I have to wonder why we're bothering?
This is good stuff Chelsea. We are very lucky to have an insider's view here
on the EVDL.
Thank you.
Redemption? I believe in giving everyone every possible chance for it.
The survival of GM may indeed depend on the success of EV/alternative
technologies.
It is nice to know that there are dedicated folks involved in the VOLT
project.
Just hoping that the suits upstairs make the wise decisions.
Thank You Chelsea for being here with the folks that believe in this
technology!
Roy
...
Roy LeMeur
NEDRA NW Regional Director
www.nedra.com<http://www.nedra.com/>
My EV and RE Project Pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html<http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html>
Informative Electric Vehicle Links-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html<http://www.angelfirecom/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html>
_________________________________________________________________
Laugh, share and connect with Windows Live Messenger
http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline<http://clk.atdmt.com/MSN/go/msnnkwme0020000001msn/direct/01/?href=http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=hmtagline>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> My questions are:
> 1. What sort of questions should I ask before
> buying?
Same as buying an ICE rig; check tires; look for
dents/accidents; ask why it hasn't been driven; look
for cosmetic issues to drive the price down, if nec.
> 2. Is $5,800 a reasonable price for such a
> vehicle?
It costs us DIY people 9K to buy the parts/batteries,
plus welding. How is it looking as an investment now?
Is it reasonable
> to pay that much, plus another $850 to have it
> shipped, plus another
> $2,000+ to put batteries in it?
What price do you put on the planet? Is the average
daily commute within range of the EV?
> 3. If something breaks, how hard is it going to be
> for me to get it
> running again? I am fairly technical and
> understand electronics
> fairly well, much better than mechanical stuff
> anyway, and the truck
> supposedly comes with all the original design
> information, but I
> recognize that there may be problems I can't
> diagnose. If that
> happens, what do I do?
That's what this discussion list is for. You will get
all kinds of responses from people who have been
there, done that. Have you read Mike Brown's "Convert
it?"
Have any of you had
> difficulty figuring out
> what's wrong with your EV and getting it working?
> What did you do?
> $8,000-10,000 is an awful lot of money to pay for
> a vehicle that
> could stop working and become unfixable, and for
> that much money I'd
> need to be sure it would last me a long time.
Not likely. They have less wiring than a gas burner
(I took it out, I know); so they are easy to
troubleshoot!
> 4. Is there a better alternative? In all honesty I
> don't need a
> truck, a small car (even a Commutacar) would
> suffice as long as it's
> capable of at least 40mph, I just haven't seen
> anything like that
> even remotely close to where I live, or close to
> my parents so I
> would have to buy it sight unseen.
This is where crashworthiness comes in. Have you
checked with your insurer to find out what they will
and won't do?
>
Good luck with your decision!
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________________________________________
Bored stiff? Loosen up...
Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
This hand method is true, if you are during bench type work or testing out a
circuit in a open front panel. Today we use a lot of safety equipment for
the voltages you are working at.
In some electronic or electrical shops, we use a insulated floor, a
non-conductive bench, static ground buss, isolated ground buss, and the
whole room may be electrical isolated.
In some cases it is impractical to use this method, so I drag out all the
safety equipment we use in our electrical work. About once a year I will do
a live shunt test of all the battery link connections, which is connecting a
milliamp meter in parallel to the link, but is connected to the battery
post, not to the end of the links it self.
I would not recommended this test for a person who does not have training in
live work. It also requires a 2nd person observer and some times in working
in very high voltages, it requires a four man team.
When I do my battery link shunt test, I either have the charger on or the
motor idle which pulls some accessory load, which provides a current through
the batteries.
I have a rubber blanket covering most of the batteries, except for for one
roll of batteries I am working on. I also cover any metal parts of the EV
and use a insulated mat on the floor. I also do not wear any rings, watches
or any metal objects on me. I do not wear a metal belt buckle in this type
of electrical work. Wear rated rubber gloves for that voltage.
All my tools are electrical Kline tools, that are full insulated. Even the
socket wrenches, torque wrenches, extensions and any other tool that is use
for this type of work is use.
If you tools are not insulated, then you can install that very heavy duty
heat shrink over the tools.
Anybody that is interested in shunt testing of a electrical connection which
we use in any type of electrical connection, it is a good way to quickly
find a battery connection that has increase in resistance or is use in the
initial installation of any electrical connection either live or using a
seperated power supply.
My battery connections are normally torque initially to 110 inch pounds.
After 5 miles of running, the torque rating will reduce about 10 percent or
call shrink back. I will then re-torque again and the next 5 miles it may be
only 1 percent.
In about 6 months, I will do the shunt test of all the battery connections
which only takes seconds per connection. All good connection should read
about 0.001 ampere. If one is higher than that, then note that one on your
battery data form. After you check all the battery connections, then you
can re-torque the ones that have increase shunt amperes.
This is one method where you have to use both hands to hold the test leads
on each battery post.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 4:16 PM
Subject: One hand behind your back.
> It's been about 60 years since I heard it, but about 1928 a study was made
> of
> electrocutions. About 90% had burns on their left hand. That led to the
> rule
> to keep your LEFT hand behind your back.
>
> John in Sylmar, CA
> PV
> EV
>
> ---------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
> http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it possible to make a profitable business converting ICE's, such as
original VW bug's or Rabbits or perhaps, specialty vehicles, such as
road-legal dune buggy's into EV's? I'm looking for something to do, have a
reasonable amount of mechanical and electrical ability and have owned and
driven a converted '76 Rabbit. I have a 3000 sq. ft. facility to use. All
comments greatly appreciated.
/roger d
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A friend working behind a rack of equipment accidentally came across a high
voltage which caused his muscles to contract and he could not let go.
He was not well liked and 3 others in the room just laughed. Keeping his
presence of mind he realized his legs still worked, and he jumped free.
Keep YOUR presence of mind!
-------------------------------------
Original message excerpted
> Hello John,
>
> This hand method is true, if you are during bench type work or testing out a
> circuit in a open front panel. Today we use a lot of safety equipment for
> the voltages you are working at.
>
>
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've seen some flexible flat panels that are less than
a half inch thick, doubt they'd cause much drag. Even
regular panels could work with a aero formed front
edge. Someone did it to a Prius. A full size van
might have enough surface area to make it worthwhile.
John
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The extra drag from having panels mounted on the
> roof will probably erase
> any extra range they give...and then some.
>
> > with a flat roof u can add light weight solar
> cells for range extension
> > and all the batteries can fir under a false floor
> in the cargo area this
> > has possiblites !! there was and may still be a
> ev van on ev finder that
> > was converted for the us navy for sell check it
> out may be a better fit
> > than you think
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: John G.
> Lussmyer<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To:
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:53 PM
> > Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy
> Vehicle
> >
> >
> > At 03:41 PM 1/27/2007, JS wrote:
> > >My first car is an EV and gets over 95% of my
> driving. After
> > >searching for an 8 or 12 passenger new or used
> van for 3 months I
> > >almost gave up.
> > >
> > >I tried Enterprise Used Car sales on the
> internet.
> > >They had eight 15 passenger 2001 vans! They
> were a year old, from car
> > pools,
> > >with about 20,000 miles on them. When I took
> out the 3 rear seats I can
> > carry
> >
> > Your point is?
> > I have an EV (a Sparrow). I have a car for long
> trips. I have a
> > Pickup truck for big loads.
> > I'd LIKE to have a Electric Pickup truck.
> >
> > --
> > John G. Lussmyer
> >
>
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> >
>
http://www.CasaDelGato.com<http://www.casadelgato.com/>
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4
> lines of legalistic
> junk at the end; then you are specifically
> authorizing me to do whatever I
> wish with the message. By posting the message you
> agree that your long
> legalistic signature is void.
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jay, do you know the make and model of the motor and controller? If they
are popular DIY brand (e.g. curtis and advanced DC), it will be easier for
local EVers to help fix if something goes wrong. EVs are very simple to fix
...IF... they are simply built.
Approx $10,000 grand running at your door step is a pretty good price. A
lot of people pay more than that just for the conversion kit (without the
donor car and the batteries).
I am sure there are other cars that you can purchase: take a look at the EV
Trading post http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/
Look at the cost for kit parts:
www.canev.com
www.electroauto.com
www.evparts.com
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jay Paroline
Sent: January 27, 2007 11:32 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Debating purchasing an EV
Hello,
I am new to this list, and new to the world of EV's in general, but not new
to the idea of trying to save gas and use modes of transportation that are
more eco-friendly. I was commuting on a motorcycle for a while, but a 70mph
brush with death on the freeway has me back in 4 wheels. Public
transportation isn't available and riding a bicycle isn't practical for
every day, which brings me to EV's.
The EV community seems to be full of DIY-ers, with most people taking a
traditional ICE car and ripping out everything ICE related. I applaud those
people, but I also remember the battle I lost with my car when I tried to
replace the starter. I am not mechanically inclined, and I have no illusion
of being able to remove an engine and all related parts, and then install
something new that would actually function safely. Hence, I am considering
buying a vehicle that someone else has converted. The particular vehicle I'm
considering is a 1994 Chevy S-10 that was converted from the factory as part
of a business venture that didn't work out. It has only 6,000 miles on it
and, according to my father who looked at it, is in perfect condition having
been stored in a garage. The reason it hasn't been used much is that the
owner lives on the top of a mountain, in VT (where my parents also live).
I'm in FL, so I have no way to look at it myself. The owner is asking $5,800
without batteries.
My questions are:
1. What sort of questions should I ask before buying?
2. Is $5,800 a reasonable price for such a vehicle? Is it reasonable to pay
that much, plus another $850 to have it shipped, plus another $2,000+ to put
batteries in it?
3. If something breaks, how hard is it going to be for me to get it running
again? I am fairly technical and understand electronics fairly well, much
better than mechanical stuff anyway, and the truck supposedly comes with all
the original design information, but I recognize that there may be problems
I can't diagnose. If that happens, what do I do? Have any of you had
difficulty figuring out what's wrong with your EV and getting it working?
What did you do?
$8,000-10,000 is an awful lot of money to pay for a vehicle that could stop
working and become unfixable, and for that much money I'd need to be sure it
would last me a long time.
4. Is there a better alternative? In all honesty I don't need a truck, a
small car (even a Commutacar) would suffice as long as it's capable of at
least 40mph, I just haven't seen anything like that even remotely close to
where I live, or close to my parents so I would have to buy it sight unseen.
Any suggestions would be wonderful. I am also perusing the archives and will
see if I find anything useful there.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I notice that you just joined the list last week. Since you do not have the
skills to develop a web based list, and expect others to do it for you, I
suggest that you either drop the subject or start reading on how to build a
web list yourself. You have made your request, now since you can't do
anything about it, lets take the conversation back to EVs.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
---------------------------------------------------
See the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Check the EVDL Archives: http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive
Check out the EV FAQ: www.evparts.com/faq
Check out the EV Photo Album: www.evalbum.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of xx xx
Sent: January 27, 2007 12:11 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Listserv v. BB/forum
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> [rant]
> Great, go ahead and start a BBS and convert all of the old archieves
> over and then invite everyone to join.
I see no need to convert anything, just post one link to the yahoo archives.
I have no idea how to do any of this, I just thought it must be possible to
create a parallel BBS that mirrors the existing list so everyone is happy.
Creating a new BBS that's not tied into the existing list doesn't work
because the older people with knowledge don't want to use the new BBS so all
you get is a bunch of us newbies talking in circles and then no one uses the
new forum. I've checked out some of the previous attempts at a EV BBS and
that's what seems to happen.
I guess eventually as EV's become more popular there will be enough people
who want a BBS to give it critical mass.
John
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Have a burning question?
Go to www.Answers.yahoo.com and get answers from real people who know.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems to me that a concerted effort by the talented folks on this
list to create a co-op venture in which individuals having the expertise
and facilities would produce components to sell. Some folks are wiring
gurus, some are machinists, some battery specialists and some, like me,
recognize cars when we see them.
Choosing a few specific vehicles that are EV conversion friendly and
focusing on conversion kits built by members of the co-op would lead to
lower component pricing for all involved and more successfully converted
EVs in the marketplace.
The big challenge I see for this movement is that almost all are
involved in their own conversion projects and all the parts have to be
custom made. The success rate has to be lower than hoped for and the
frustration level higher than I can imagine.
I am not a novice when it comes to ICEs but the idea of building my own
EV from scratch is daunting to say the least. The learning curve is
vertical.
If such a co-op existed, standardized parts would be available and
conversion manuals and instructional DVDs would almost assure a
successful conversion that would be safe to drive and have a predictable
performance.
Thanks,
Doug McKee
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>The nifty thing about that is that the three pots are offset from each
>other by 15 degrees or so. The controller can thereby detect any pot
>failure. The single pot on most DC controllers is quite a design flaw.
This is the same setup that all of GM's drive-by-wire systems were
using, at least for a while. I don't know if they still do it.
GM started with this on the 1994 6.5L turbo diesel, which was
(I think) their first electronic throttle application. In the diesel,
two of the pots were wired backwards (higher voltage = lower position),
and the third pot was wired forwards (higher voltage = higher position).
One of the backwards pots had a lower slope, where maybe only 1.5 volts
of change is from idle to WOT. I don't remember the exact scaling but
I do have it at work.
Most other systems use either one pot and a two-position idle switch,
or a pair of redundant pots but three like GM. They are not as reliable
at detecting every fault you can possibly have on a throttle as GM's
system. A very well thought-out system, even though it was used first
on pickup trucks.... :-)
I did not know that Chelsea reads this. I loved the movie. My
favorite actress!
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 05:43 AM 1/28/2007, FRED JEANETTE MERTENS wrote:
what is an avo/wvo
I'm guessing (something) Vegetable Oil.
Not really an option if you don't have a source. (And every
restaurant in the world has already been contacted and their excess
old oil bought/taken by somebody.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have tried to stay out of this too, the discussion comes up over and
over. But your "Vote" is kinda infuriating. Stalwart?
<soapbox>
We are all different, but I think a lot of us are here because EV's
offer us an elegant simplicity in transportation. There are times when
I would like to follow a thread but 99.453 % I would just like to read
it like a newspaper with my cup of coffee in the morning. I just imagine
the multiple threads in my head. The newspaper is still around, not yet
replaced with online services or portable readers. I love the simple
Digest form.
I liked it better when people followed some basic list etiquette.
no 1 word replies to 1000 word messages.
Use of the <snip></snip> markers when including a reply that needs
internal comments but not the whole thing.
(It is not the bandwidth, it is the amount of time I must
scrolling through stuff I have already read)
Search Recent Archives before posting. Do we really want to talk
about x again?
Not replying with someone elses signature at the bottom.
So I vote for KISS, Keep it simply simple, Please give me 1 to 2 digests
a day. Period.
</soapbox>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just installed my repaired Link 10 (E-Meter) and I found a setting
I am not familiar with, F18. My manual is from 1999 and only shows
up to F18 on the settings. What is F18? I checked the website and
Xantrex no longer shows the manual as a download.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John,
>
> I notice that you just joined the list last week.
> Since you do not have the
> skills to develop a web based list, and expect
> others to do it for you, I
> suggest that you either drop the subject or start
> reading on how to build a
> web list yourself.
That is exactly what I'm in the process of doing.
Part of that process is getting ideas from others.
Open discussion is the best way to get something done.
I suspect that this topic will be brought up more
frequently as more people become interested in EV's.
However, since I seem to be bothering people I will
try to contact those of like mind separately from the
EVlist so your email does not get filled up with
topics of no interest to you. I understand how that
can be annoying.
John
____________________________________________________________________________________
Get your own web address.
Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business.
http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You might want to contact Mike Brown of Electro Automotive. He has been
doing it for years (1979). Makes kits as well. http://www.electroauto.com/
Also Mike Slominski use to tell us he would convert any car for $15K, but he
retired and moved to Pollock Pines. I did hear that he might be interested
in starting up that business again though ([EMAIL PROTECTED] )
Also, there is a person here in Santa Cruz that would like to start a
non-profit that would convert vehicles. She is just at the business
planning stages and would be interested in feedback. Mary Tsalis
[EMAIL PROTECTED] She also drives a converted Rabbit.
- Will
Electric Auto Association
Membership
323 Los Altos Drive
Aptos, CA 95003
(831) 688-8669
http://eaaev.org/eaamembership.html
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roger Daisley @ R J Ranch
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 7:08 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Converting ICE vehicles for profit
Is it possible to make a profitable business converting ICE's, such as
original VW bug's or Rabbits or perhaps, specialty vehicles, such as
road-legal dune buggy's into EV's? I'm looking for something to do, have a
reasonable amount of mechanical and electrical ability and have owned and
driven a converted '76 Rabbit. I have a 3000 sq. ft. facility to use. All
comments greatly appreciated.
/roger d
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--- Begin Message ---
And don't work with assholes.
On 1/27/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
A friend working behind a rack of equipment accidentally came across a high
voltage which caused his muscles to contract and he could not let go.
He was not well liked and 3 others in the room just laughed. Keeping his
presence of mind he realized his legs still worked, and he jumped free.
Keep YOUR presence of mind!
-------------------------------------
Original message excerpted
> Hello John,
>
> This hand method is true, if you are during bench type work or testing out a
> circuit in a open front panel. Today we use a lot of safety equipment for
> the voltages you are working at.
>
>
---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
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www.electric-lemon.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jay,
I recently finished up a typical conversion with a good controller, good
charger, batteries and accessories and the parts cost me about $9,000.00. I
fabricated everything else and did the work. The donor car cost $5,000.00. So
it cost me $14,000.00 and that was reduced to about $6,000.00 with rebates,
incentives and credits.
So if the S-10 is nicely converted and is fitted with quality parts, it seems
to me it would be a good way to get into an EV.
I don't expect to save much money, but I love not paying it to the oil
companies. Not happy with paying more money to our seemingly competitive power
company monopoly either, but that's another story and at least they are nukes,
so that's good - I think?
The best way to describe an EV is a pet. I have a pet in the garage and like
all pets, you can end up with a great one or a difficult one to care for. If
you put a lot of effort into training and caring for a pet, you'll be rewarded
with good behavior and companionship.
Most EV's are converted, and even though they are less complex than ICE cars,
*every* little conversion decision is left up to the the person (or hopefully,
persons) doing the work. That's an incredible responsibility considering that
there are teams of people that should be involved to arrive at the best
conversion solution. And even if you arrive at the best solution, there is the
matter of execution. (This list helps with this stuff). Some of those best
solutions may not matter all that much, but something as simple as routing a
wire through a hole in sheet metal can cause problems. There is no quality
control guy around to yell, "Hey! Nope!" or "O.K., go ahead".
So when you purchase an EV, you are really purchasing someone's unique approach
to converting an ICE car to an electric car. That's a real neat thing, and,
generally speaking, no two are alike! Some are better than others.
If the conversion tends towards good design, good placement of the components,
thoughtful layout, provisions for easy maintenance, good fabrication, good
wiring practices and attention to detail, you'll end up with a good pet.
This list can help you out with problems, but you might need some real time
support form a knowledgeable friend. I would think that the best skills for you
to have if you are buying a converted EV is electrical - electronic skills to
be able to diagnose and troubleshoot circuits. It's more likely you'll have a
low voltage circuit problem so if you understand electronics, that's good.
Your EV will probably quit on you sometime. Again, it's how well it's been
converted that will determine how easily it can be troubleshooted and fixed.
If the motor is bolted up and hopefully everything else is fabricated pretty
well, you'll only need to worry about mechanical maintenance similar to an ICE
car.
Did the converter keep a detailed record of what he did? Not just design
information, but some good detailed hints of what wires go where?
(I wish I did - I forgot already)
It could be a really nice project if you decide to accept the challenge.
The list here can really help you to make an informed decision about committing
to it.
Best of luck.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Jay Paroline <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hello,
>
> I am new to this list, and new to the world of EV's in general, but
> not new to the idea of trying to save gas and use modes of
> transportation that are more eco-friendly. I was commuting on a
> motorcycle for a while, but a 70mph brush with death on the freeway
> has me back in 4 wheels. Public transportation isn't available and
> riding a bicycle isn't practical for every day, which brings me to EV's.
>
> The EV community seems to be full of DIY-ers, with most people taking
> a traditional ICE car and ripping out everything ICE related. I
> applaud those people, but I also remember the battle I lost with my
> car when I tried to replace the starter. I am not mechanically
> inclined, and I have no illusion of being able to remove an engine
> and all related parts, and then install something new that would
> actually function safely. Hence, I am considering buying a vehicle
> that someone else has converted. The particular vehicle I'm
> considering is a 1994 Chevy S-10 that was converted from the factory
> as part of a business venture that didn't work out. It has only 6,000
> miles on it and, according to my father who looked at it, is in
> perfect condition having been stored in a garage. The reason it
> hasn't been used much is that the owner lives on the top of a
> mountain, in VT (where my parents also live). I'm in FL, so I have no
> way to look at it myself. The owner is asking $5,800 without batteries.
>
> My questions are:
> 1. What sort of questions should I ask before buying?
> 2. Is $5,800 a reasonable price for such a vehicle? Is it reasonable
> to pay that much, plus another $850 to have it shipped, plus another
> $2,000+ to put batteries in it?
> 3. If something breaks, how hard is it going to be for me to get it
> running again? I am fairly technical and understand electronics
> fairly well, much better than mechanical stuff anyway, and the truck
> supposedly comes with all the original design information, but I
> recognize that there may be problems I can't diagnose. If that
> happens, what do I do? Have any of you had difficulty figuring out
> what's wrong with your EV and getting it working? What did you do?
> $8,000-10,000 is an awful lot of money to pay for a vehicle that
> could stop working and become unfixable, and for that much money I'd
> need to be sure it would last me a long time.
> 4. Is there a better alternative? In all honesty I don't need a
> truck, a small car (even a Commutacar) would suffice as long as it's
> capable of at least 40mph, I just haven't seen anything like that
> even remotely close to where I live, or close to my parents so I
> would have to buy it sight unseen.
>
> Any suggestions would be wonderful. I am also perusing the archives
> and will see if I find anything useful there.
>
> Thanks!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am still searching desperately for hub motors ,,they are hard to get in
India
On 1/27/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Where have you found hub motors to use in your EV?
What type are they and how powerful?
> what changes or software i should look for to making my ev with hub
motors
> turn
>
> does it require some thing to make it turn
>
> how does the power from each battery vary
>
> please clarify
>
> finally are hub motors suitable for ev conversions
>
> where can i find good ac hub motors
>
> regards
> Sushrut
>
>
>
> On 1/27/07, Anthony Nguyen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> A differential is to take power coming from a single engine and split
it
>> into different amounts for each wheel. With hub motors each wheel
>> automatically gets a different amount of power because they each have
>> their own engine
>>
>>
>> Dmitri wrote:
>> > The motor stops.
>> > Depends on what kind of stop and go it is! Would be easy on the
>> > battery if it was light acceleration, but hard on the battery if it
>> > was hard acceleration.
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "sushrut patgaonkar"
>> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <[email protected]>
>> > Sent: Friday, January 26, 2007 3:24 PM
>> > Subject: Sushrut
>> >
>> >
>> >> I have two questions
>> >>
>> >> 1. What happens to an ev at traffic lights , does the motor stops
>> taking
>> >> power or does it keep
>> >> running ,, how do stop and go conditions affect the life of a
battery
>> >> {li-ion}?
>> >>
>> >> 2. there is an ev with 4 flat motors ( hub motors ), how does such a
>> >> vehicle
>> >> handle turns without a differential?
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One of my friends who i am tapping has a few contacts in the industry ,, I
havent still found any good ones yet
my company has made a prototype electric scooter motor
they are thinking of making it bigger
Crompton and Greaves limited , India
its a hub motor
On 1/27/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Series hybrids are the most difficult to make efficient.
The power from your engine most go through conversion to electricicty -
where you will loose approx 10-20% of your power-, then if you are going
to store it in a battery you'll loose another 10-25% of your power, then
you convert it from electricity back to mechanical motion and loose
another 10-20% of your power.
You'd be better off using a smaller engine dircetly coupled to the wheels
and suplementing it's power with an electric motor for acceleration and
hills. The electric motor could provide regen braking to get a portion of
this acceleration energy back during braking, and then you could add a
small generator to the diesel/etc. to make up for the lost energy.
I'm still interested to know where you have found affordable hub motors
at. Here in the states I'm only aware of one company that makes hub
motors powerfull enough for a car size EV and they cost something like
~$20,000 each.
> Hello all,
>
> I was thinking last night about some ev configurations
>
> 1. A small diesel engine of about 35 hp connected to a ac generator
which
> is
> connected directly to two hub motors ,,what would be the likely
advantages
> and dis advantages of such a system,,will it need two controllers ? will
> it
> need the extra weight of a gearbox to achieve performance of 200 kmph,,
> the
> diesel engine will be tuned for maximum efficiency ,, what configuration
> of
> motors should i start looking for if I want to build such a system
>
> 2. does anyone have contacts of where to source ev parts in India ,,
> (Ahmedabad , Mumbai)
>
> 3. Can such a system deliver on the goals of efficiency and performance
>
> 4. what would be the costof such a system ?
>
> 5.what is the significance of having a battery pack in the first place
,,
> can it be bypassed to prevent the weight penalty associated with
batteries
>
> 6. has anyone heard of such a system or worked on such a system?
>
> 7. where can I find mentors for guiding me thru the process of building
> the
> above said system
>
> 8.what would be the specifications of such a system if it is to be used
> for
> a) a sports car
> b) a suv
>
> thank you all
> Sushrut
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Remember from a GM point of view 120,000 is just an average seller. So while
it looks like a large number to us, I am sure GM will wanr a lot mor hits
before thy commit to build the VOLT.
via Treo
David Hrivnak
-----Original Message-----
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subj: Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before, More Comments
Date: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:03 pm
Size: 4K
To: [email protected]
Chelsea's been on the ground floor with these folks so she speaks
from experience.
I don't think it will hurt to fill in the survey. No matter what GM's
reasons are, numbers don't lie and if they see over 120,000 people
signing in a survey to want the Volt that not only says something to
GM it says something to the other manufacturers that people want EVs
and plug-in hybrids.
The auto manufacturers are putting their foot in the water with alt
fuel vehicles without really jumping in yet. They are still testing
the waters. If we tell them "Come on in the water's fine" by signing
a survey with thousands of signatures it has to say something and
they have to pay attention.
As far as the Volt, I'm not too keen on the styling. It looks like
they are going after the Chrysler 300 - Dodge Magnum and Charger look
with the chopped top appearance, taller body, aggressive grill and
big tires. I guess that is the look now days and works well for
Chrysler. Maybe Chelsea has some insight into the design.
But the fact they are doing something is interesting. I hope it's
not, "Look over there technology" and they really intend to follow
through with it.
I still miss the EV-1 greatly and haven't given the Volt much serious
thought because GM already had a great EV, but as Chelsea mentions we
shouldn't look back.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA
http://www.nedra.com
On Jan 27, 2007, at 2:19 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
> From: "Chelsea Sexton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: January 27, 2007 2:04:31 PM EST
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before, More Comments.
>
>
> OK, gotta jump in to this one...
>
> Re: whether it's useful to tell GM that we want to buy the Volt...I
> guess my question would be, why wouldn't you? Even if you believe
> GM will never build it, it is crucial that we as consumers continue
> to demonstrate demand. If you don't, and GM doesn't build this car,
> you've handed them a reason why. If you do, and they still don't
> build it, it calls them out- let's face it, demand for the EV1
> would have been a lot harder to prove without the 5,000 person
> waiting list. The truth is that there is and always was demand for
> plug-in cars- but we've nothing to gain by not getting that truth
> out there at every opportinity.
>
> I'm not at all naive in this, of course, especially when it comes
> to GM- what happened with the EV1 is as personal to me as anyone.
> But being encouraged by the Volt announcement is not the same as
> letting them off the hook for EV1- indeed, many of the people whom
> I feel did the most damage to the EV1 program are no longer there
> anyhow, and I personally think it's more productive at this point
> to move forward than look back. Bob and I were in Detroit with
> Chris Paine for the Volt announcement, and between that and other
> meetings, I've have had many hours of recent conversation with both
> the Volt designers and engineers as well as the execs and PR folks.
> A lot can happen between concept car and showroom, and ultimately,
> I'm going to judge them on what they do, not what they say. But all
> pr spin aside, there is a level of commitment and sincerity in the
> individuals involved that I've not seen in years- and I know for
> certain that we've collectively played a part in the fact that
> they're even pursuing this direction again; not only do I hope they
> follow through, I think it's crucial for the future of the company.
> Do I wish they'd never taken the detour? Of course...but this is
> exactly what we've been working for, and if we can't allow the
> slightest optimism, I have to wonder why we're bothering?
>
> The reality is that not one of the car companies behaved honorably
> with respect to their EV programs. But I also believe that while
> they each have a lot of ground to make up, none of them are beyond
> redemption. To the extent that any of them are wanting to take a
> step in a better direction, I think it's important to allow them to
> take it (or not) before we judge.
>
> chelsea
>
>
>> From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: [email protected]
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Subject: Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before, More Comments.
>> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2007 11:10:09 -0500
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "Martin K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Cc: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Monday, January 22, 2007 9:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Martin:
>> >
>> > You are about to fall into GM's public relations trap. I am sure
>> that some
>> > guy in tie and suit is giggling about how his sting got GM some
>> good
>> > headlines. GM will never built the 'Volt' - at least not as long
>> as they
>> > can sell their cheapo gas guzzlers. They are not serious, never
>> have been.
>> >
>> > Michaela
>> >
--- End Message ---
