EV Digest 6360
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle/PV panels
by Robert Lemke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before, More Comments
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Starting out on a EV in the UK
by "Simon Chambers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Starting out on a EV in the UK
by "Simon Chambers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Starting out on a EV in the UK
by "Simon Chambers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Motor Controller for Capacitor Powered Vehicle
by Frank John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Serious gassing when charging
by "Simon Chambers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Rebates/Incentives/Credits, Was: Debating purchasing an EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
11) Re: Altairnano not hype
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Serious gassing when charging
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Rebates/Incentives/Credits, Was: Debating purchasing an EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
14) Re: Debating purchasing an EV
by "Matt Kenigson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Rebates/Incentives/Credits, Was: Debating purchasing an EV
by "Doug McKee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) My EV is part of my solar electric system
by JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle/PV pa
nels
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I live where we lose power about 5 times a year. What I do is keep my lead
floodies after they lose 20% of their capacitity and sting them in buddy pairs.
I have 126 watts of solar panals dumping into a 12 volt 1760 a/hr bank with a
Trace 2KW inverter. To keep this bank from over charging, I plug my EVs
chargers into the Trace inverter. When power goes out, I have enough battery
bank to run the house for a couple of days.
Bob
xx xx <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I agree that's the more efficient setup, without a
doubt. However, stationary panels cannot extend your
range. I know they won't extend it a lot, but let's
say you drive to work in the morning but you can't
park anywhere near an outlet. Your vehicle is parked
for 8-9 hours during the day sitting in the sun. Sure
it's not all peak generating time, but a 16 ft long 6
ft. wide van could give you about 90 sq.ft. of surface
area. You could fit 6 Sunpower 220 watt units,
totaling about 200 lbs. Even if you conservatively
rate them at half the output for average real world
conditions, that's over 1000 watts available.
I honestly don't know how this all would work out in
the real world but it seems as if a large van might
have enough area to make it worthwhile in certain
situations.
John
--- Jerry McIntire wrote:
> John, put the PV panels on your house, garage, or
> business. You'll
> get better tax credits, can put up a bigger array to
> actually get
> some miles out of them, and they will be safer, not
> to mention
> leaving your roof clear for carrying whatever. A
> van roof full of
> panels will add almost no range because the
> batteries will only start
> taking their output once they you've started
> draining them, and
> you're adding weight. I've got them on my house,
> and the plug in the
> garage feeds the PV power directly to our EVs.
>
> Jerry
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michaela,
Correct - it depends more on whether the politicians have "balls"
than if the technology is available.
Remember, when the seatbelt law was proposed, the CEO of Ford
(Mr Ford himself) claimed that his company would sure go bankrupt
if they were forced to install this new feature on all their cars.
It did not look that his threat has come true.
Thanks for taking action - we do what we can do.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: Michaela Merz [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 7:22 AM
To: Cor van de Water
Cc: [email protected]
Subject: RE: I Need You to Blitz GM Like Never Before, More Comments
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Enough tangents for now, I think we will see EV production
> well before 2010, though the mass produced, affordable and
> available EVs could probably be due in three years, which
> would neatly coincide with a possible mass-produced EEstor.
> Hmmm - recharge in ONE minute sounds good.
> Million cycle life too.... <drifting into rose-colored dreams>
Dream on ;) If you would see how the European (read: German) car makers
are pressuring the European Union in regard to proposed reduction of fuel
usage .. One believes to be in a different world. I took the time to write
the CEO of Daimler Chrysler ('Dr. Z') and reminded him to the fact, that
he is an EE. So - he should know that it is possible to build an EV.
Do I believe we will see a mass-produced EV or even a serious PHEV within
the next 3 years? Not from Detroit or Germany. Those guys will do
everything to keep the business they are having. And politicians are
easily impressed with the threat of a massive reduction in workforce
(Daimler Chrysler said, that they might have to reduce their workforce by
_50,000_ IF the EU orders strict(er) fuel usage regulations).
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So who was # 1000. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
> Good job with the website, Mike! Thanks for your efforts.
>
> Mark Ward
> St. Charles, MO
> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
>
>
>
>
> ---- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > We made it! It has been a long long haul, but the EV Album is now
> > 1000 entries strong. We actually have 1053 entries total, but 53 are
> > either retired, canceled, or incomplete.
> >
> > Thank you all so much for helping make this happen.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike Chancey
> > Webmaster
> > EV Photo Album
> > http://evalbum.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you for *your* support that made this possible!
The album is a great resource. Its a great place to send those who
approach me about EVs (lots of people know I have one or have seen me
on TV working on one.) Its a great place for me to glean EV ideas and
see how others have approached EV construction issues.
Way to go Mike!
Paul "neon" G.
On Jan 29, 2007, at 4:39 AM, Mike Chancey wrote:
We made it! It has been a long long haul, but the EV Album is now
1000 entries strong. We actually have 1053 entries total, but 53 are
either retired, canceled, or incomplete.
Thank you all so much for helping make this happen.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi James,
Thanks for the advice. I think I'll be looking down the Forklift motor
route. I'm currently a student so my budget isn't that massive hence I
should imagine pretty much everything I can, will be scavenged from a junk
yard.
I still haven't decided quite what donor car I should be looking at. It's
probably going to be a small or a fun car since I'll be primarily driving it
around town. If I did go down the forklift motor route, would it be sensible
looking at a diesel donor's? Since the gearbox would be geared for low down
torque, rather than high revs, hopefully I can get away with fewer
modifications to the motor. My current diesel car has most of its power from
1.8k-4k, while topping out completely at 4.5k. However I don't know the rev
limits on diesel gearboxes, but I assume forklift motors don't rev too well?
Kind Regards,
Simon
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: 27 January 2007 2:40 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Starting out on a EV in the UK
At 11:48 PM 26/01/07 +0000, Simon wrote:
>My main issue at the moment is locating reasonable affordable motors. I see
>on evalbum that the Advance DC motor is extensively used in conversions,
and
>looking at the specs is understandable. Does anyone know of any UK
suppliers
>of EV motors that are at an affordable price?
Richard Bebbington ia a motor distributor in South Wales, but I don't
believe he (or anyone else in the UK for that matter) will have stock (at
least Murphy will make it none of the size you need). One of the UK EVers
should have more info.
>Alternatively, are there any good types of motor that can be used in EV's?
>For example I've noticed that the series wound Winch Motors seem very
>powerful (however I don't know what their life would be like in continuous
>usage) or
The design life of winch motors us typically tens of hours, and their duty
cycle is probably 30 seconds at rating, 5 min to cool down.
>even forklift motors?
Yes, many forklift(/towmotor/electric truck) motors are useable, the
difference between a forklift traction motor and a road-going traction
motor are typically as follows:
- Forklift motors often have splined or tapered output shafts that are not
so easy to use, but not impossible.
- Some motors are made to fit a transmission housing (one of my ex-fork
motors has a starter-motor bulge cast into the transmission adaptor) that
means a non-standard adaptor.
- Weight is usually not an issue, so they often have cast iron end plates
instead of aluminium. I made a new end plate for my motor that does double
duty - end plate and transmission adaptor.
- They are optimised for torque instead of speed, so the fields are often
series connection, with fairly high turn count, where on-road motors have
fewer turns and have two paralell paths through the fields (a reasonably
straigh-forward modification to change).
- they are designed for more conservative amperages, so the brushes are
relatively smaller for the size of the motor than many on-road designs, so
you'd try and find a bigger motor (e.g. a 10" motor for a vehicle that
could use an 8" ADC motor)
- Some are totally enclosed, non-ventilated (TENV) use on-road an external
blower should be used. The motor I'm preparing for my truck was 4.5hp but
as big as a 45hp, due to being TENV.
- The grade of brush material may be different.
Haunt your local scrap dealers, make friends, beer is a good way to make
them think of you and ring you up when something turns up. You may be lucky
enough to find a big, old 72V forklift or electric truck that will provide
motor, contactors, cabling, maybe a controller, and all for scrap price. A
Mitsubishi Colt was converted in Western Australia using a 72V fork motor
that would burn rubber in 5th gear, but they couldn't get faster than 50mph
(80km/h). They didn't do their research so changed out the motor for an ADC
that gave them more top speed but they had to use the gears as the torque
was way down. They could have modded their motor or added bypass field
weakening to increase top speed for much less money than the ADC would have
cost them.
>Also why aren't 3-phase AC induction motor's (like what are attached to
>lathes, mills, conveyor belts, etc) used in EV's? Since these produce large
>amounts of reliable torque for long periods.
They are! However, to get a wide speed range and plenty of power relative
to weight, the on-road motors are quite special, and the controllers are as
well. The differences principly are:
- Normal 3-phase 50 or 60Hz, on-road 300Hz+
- Normal motor speed 4-pole 1400RPM (50Hz) on-road 10,000RPM+
- Normal motor has cast aluminium windings on rotor, on-road may have copper
- Normal motor air cooled, on-road motor often water cooled.
Then the inverters:
- Normal motor control: sensorless vector or similar, on-road often encoder
feedback
- Normal speed control-constant speed, on-road constant torque.
- Inverters for on-road are designed for low weight relative to power, and
may be water cooled.
It is possible to rewind and otherwise rebuild a normal induction motor for
on-road use, some inverters are happy to be used on DC (Eletronica Santerno
comes to mind). Programming the inverter to behave in constant torque may
be an issue (so the vehicle throttle becomes a speed reference so you are
in cruise control all the time, set by the accelerator).
By the time you've done all that, you are likely to be better off getting
one of the superbly engineered surplus EV systems that Siemens make, and
comes with a 10 year warranty, unless you have access to rewinding etc at a
"mates rates" price.
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
(in Australia)
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dale,
Thanks for the great information (and to everyone else who's replied to my
original question).
It looks likely that I'll be going down the Forklift Motor route. One of my
main aims of this project is to attempt to design and build most of the
electronic systems myself (e.g. the drive controller, battery management
system, dashboard, etc). I have good experience driving smaller brushed
motors (400-sized model aircraft/car motors), and feel pretty confident of
producing a decent controller for reasonably high voltage motor. Since I
will be dealing with around 48v-72v tops, I intend to use a MOSFET based
design. On a side note, are there any schematics around of E.V. DC
controllers? I very much like to look at what other people have done and see
if there are any design idea's I haven't thought about!
My original intended plan for producing a AC controller was to start with a
small cheap motor (lower current, less of a bang when things go wrong) at
the correct voltage and using cheap EBay sourced IGBT's to start off with.
However I think it will be later on that I will develop an AC drive motor
controller. I'm very much in the frame of mind that since it's my first
conversion, I want to K.I.S.S. I feel there will be plenty of other things
to worry about than a complicated drive system!
Cheers,
Si
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dale Ulan
> Sent: 27 January 2007 4:33 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: Starting out on a EV in the UK
>
> >Are the AC motors special purpose EV built units? Or are they derived
> from
> >industrial units?
>
> Both have been done. EV control typically requires a speed sensor
> on the motor for proper control, though. This is fairly easy to
> add. The AC motors sold by Metric Mind are purpose-built for EV's,
> but as with any technology like that, certainly would have evolved
> from an industrial motor.
>
> >Due to their wide spread usage, industrial motors seem very economical
> >compared to brushed and series wound DC motors. In terms of actual cost,
> a
> >brand new 15Hp 3 phase 400v motor in the UK is around $510. Compared to a
> DC
> >motor in the US, I've seen the Etek units go for around $600, which can
> only
> >just manage 15Hp Peak.
>
> If you pick the correct rotor type (torque curve), a 15HP motor will be
> capable of producing somewhere around 50 to 80HP for a while - but
> efficiency drops a bit up there, and you are thermally limited - ie
> you can do that until the motor gets too hot. Basically,
> for high-torque operation, you run the motor in the 'startup' torque
> region, which can be from 2 to 5 times the nominal running torque. This
> multiplier depends on the rotor construction, mostly, and the torque vs.
> efficiency vs. slip is typically published. Alternately, torque vs. rpm
> and efficiency vs. rpm can be used given that the typical 1800 RPM speed
> (in North America) is zero-slip. In Europe, 1500 RPM is your number.
>
> In 'Motor Control Electronics Handbook', Richard Valentine and a few
> others
> did a couple of conversions of a 1993 Dodge Dakota. One conversion tried
> was an FB-4001 Advanced DC, and the other used a 15kW (20 HP) size 256
> frame motor rewound from 230V to 150V. They added a speed sensor, and
> built a 400A VFD for it. This motor was capable of running at close to
> 100kW without problems. They were using a 288V battery pack, which is
> about right for a 150 to 180V RMS output.
>
> >In terms of driving the motors, how complicated is it? I'm aware that you
> >can get industrial (hideously expensive) inverters that vary the input
> >frequency between (from the one's I've seen) 0-2KHz to vary the speed.
> >Surely it's not too complicated to feed 3 sets of sine waves into a
> motor,
> >compared to driving a DC motor using PWM?
>
> It's not that 'complicated' but getting good reliability from power
> stages does take a lot of engineering. Something that switches 400 volts
> and 400 amps, at 10,000 or 20,000 Hz is something of a challenge,
> actually. The various units sold by Metric Mind appear to be quite
> nice - and automotive-designed. I have not used them myself, although
> I would like to try them someday. If you are an electronics
> designer by trade (as I am), I think you could learn to build a VFD
> but I am pretty convinced that, for one or two drives, it would be
> cheaper to buy them. In my power electronics experience, someone
> designing one of these drives will probably blow up one or two sets
> of IGBT's, and at that power level, one explosion (which will usually
> take out all six IGBT's - and many parts on the driver board)
> costs somewhere around $500. It's also loud, so wear hearing
> protection when you crank it up.
>
> Typically either a vector control or a slip-control algorithm will
> be used, not an open-loop V/F as would be sufficient on a single-
> speed device, which many industrial non-servo applications would
> need. You also don't want a PID controller on motor speed. This
> is quite difficult to drive - it's like fighting a cruise control
> constantly, when you don't want it. The programming of some industrial
> drives may allow this, but most I would expect would be set up
> for either constant frequency output (open-loop), or closed-loop
> speed regulation. You want neither of those for a vehicle.
>
> >The only draw back I can see is the high voltage needed to drive the
> motors
> >at their rated voltages. What is the effect of lowering the voltage on an
> AC
> >inductance motor?
>
> Lower full-torque speed, lower power, slightly lower efficiency (because
> the
> inherent voltage drops in IGBT's start to get more significant as the
> voltages
> are dropped.
>
> Right now, using high voltage affects the battery cost, although
> when you get above 13 or 14 12-volt batteries, you're in the right
> ballpark
> for voltage. Battery balancing is a bit more of an issue just because you
> have more batteries. Also, AC drives are somewhat more expensive than a
> similar DC drive (at least, for a hobbyist) at this time. For an OEM, this
> situation is likely reversed. The difference in cost vs. advantages of
> AC would likely swing them into using an AC system, just as some
> hobbyists do.
>
> Despite the cost hit that an AC system provides, quite a few hobbyists
> have
> built vehicles using various AC systems. The Metric Mind Siemens system
> has been used quite a bit. If you search through the evalbum you'll see
> various AC and BLDC systems in use - a BLDC (brushless DC) motor is more
> related to an AC induction motor than it is to its brushed cousin - at
> least
> in terms of electronics.
>
> -Dale
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Nicki,
I currently live near Newbury but I'm also a student at UWE, Bristol! I
sometimes see you buzzing around in your little yellow el, and have to admit
seeing your car re-sparked my interest in EVs.
Looking at your BEVOB website, I noticed it states that your next meeting is
this Sunday. However both this Sunday, and the first Sunday in March are on
the 4th! If it's this Sunday, then very unfortunately I won't be able to
come along since it's my dad's birthday and I'll need to drive home for the
weekend. Will there be any notes put up online of the mini-lecture
afterwards? I'll be very interested to hear what is going to be said.
Also do you know of any good local scrap yards around the Bristol area? I've
had a good look in the yellow pages, but most places that may be tend to say
that they are metal recycling centres.
Kind Regards,
Simon
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of nikki
Sent: 28 January 2007 9:12 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Starting out on a EV in the UK
Hi Simon,
Where in the UK are you?
BEVOB - The regional South-West group of the BVS are having our
monthly meet next Sunday, March 4th in Bristol. This time we'll be
having a mini lecture on Motors, including details of where you can
get them from!
Regards
Nikki
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On Jan 26, 2007, at 11:48 PM, Simon Chambers wrote:
> Hi,
>
> After reading a lot of very interesting conversations over the past
> few
> weeks, I have decided to post my first questions!
>
> I'm looking into building (well converting) my first EV car and I
> am doing
> my initial background research. I've noticed that there seems a
> very strong
> EV parts business in America with an equally strong following.
> However in
> the UK there is a distinct lack of places on which to get parts.
>
> My main issue at the moment is locating reasonable affordable
> motors. I see
> on evalbum that the Advance DC motor is extensively used in
> conversions, and
> looking at the specs is understandable. Does anyone know of any UK
> suppliers
> of EV motors that are at an affordable price?
>
> Alternatively, are there any good types of motor that can be used
> in EV's?
> For example I've noticed that the series wound Winch Motors seem very
> powerful (however I don't know what their life would be like in
> continuous
> usage) or even forklift motors?
>
> Also why aren't 3-phase AC induction motor's (like what are
> attached to
> lathes, mills, conveyor belts, etc) used in EV's? Since these
> produce large
> amounts of reliable torque for long periods.
>
> Kind Regards,
> Simon
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its
> simplicity and ease of use." - PC Magazine
> http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
There's an article entitled "UltraCapacitor Power for a Drag Racecar" in the
white papers on Maxwell's site
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/technical-support/white_papers.asp that
describes BYU converting the battery pack from an EV1 to uCaps for drag racing.
You have to register to read it; I think it's also available on globalspec.com
If memory serves they used an A.C. controller taking energy from the uCaps
directly i.e. w/o using a DC/DC converter to maintain constant input voltage.
----- Original Message ----
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:33:44 PM
Subject: Re: Motor Controller for Capacitor Powered Vehicle
A controller would need to be able to handle a wide voltage and current
range. To use some 90% of the cap's energy the voltage will vary by a
factor of 3.
Right now, there is no capacitor in existance which can power an EV for
any useful distance. Someone asked about the big stereo caps and I
recall calculating that enough to fill the vehicle gets you just about
to the end of the block. Available, but very expensive, ultracaps could
get you a decent start off the line but still no range to speak of.
Danny
Bruce wrote:
>Does anyone have any ideas on what kind of controller would work well for a
>small vehicle powered by (instead of batteries), a very large bank of
>capacitors?
>
>I understand that SCR based controllers are hard on batteries because of
>their slow switching speed and large current spikes. Perhaps this would not
>be a problem with capacitor power? Might an SCR based controller be
>simpler, cheaper and more rugged than a more modern MOSFET controller?
>
>Any thoughts on this?
>
>
>
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I don't know if these may be of interest to you:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330079925315
They look like reasonably good batteries spec:
http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/ProductSpec.aspx?Name=T-145
Regards,
Si
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of nikki
> Sent: 29 January 2007 4:15 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Serious gassing when charging
>
> Oh bother!
>
> On Jan 29, 2007, at 3:22 PM, David Roden wrote:
>
> > On 29 Jan 2007 at 14:45, nikki wrote:
> >
> >> Varta semi-tractions
> >
> > That may be part of the problem - they're not real deep cycle
> > batteries. In
> > the states a few EVers have tried these "combination" SLI / DC marine
> > batteries for EVs - they die very quickly, even faster than
> > allegedly "real"
> > deep cycle 12v marine batteries.
> >
> > My guess is that yours are depreciating rapidly. Your finish
> > voltage needs
> > to be trimmed down as they age - they will never again reach the
> > maximum
> > voltage that they reached when they were new.
> >
> > If your garage stinks while charging, you're damaging them
> > already. Feel
> > the blocks - are they hot? I wouldn't be surprised if they're
> > going into
> > thermal runaway. It's probably too late to save them, but turn the
> > charger
> > down anyway!
> >
> > If you can't adjust that charger, you should get yourself a good,
> > adjustable
> > smart charger. I really like Brusa chargers because they're almost
> > infininitely programmable, but they're pretty expensive.
>
> Yeah. I think you're right. This morning the charger tried to push 56
> volts through on a 36v nominal pack before I saw and turned it off.
> The batteries aren't getting that hot but they are using a lot of
> water. (They're flooded of course)
>
> >
> > Roger, can the user trim finish voltage and current on a Delta-Q?
> >
> >> I've got a 6v cell which I add to the pack in series for driving to
> >> give me that extra kick 42v nominal can give
> >
> > I don't think that you have a 6v cell, more likely a 6v battery
> > (module,
> > block, monoblock, etc.).
>
> Yes - I do. A 6v monoblock which I was leant for the winter to help
> get me through. The Varta Semi-Tractions hate the cold. And by that
> I mean anything under about 55 degrees!
>
> > I have some doubts about charging it with the rest of them,
> > regardless of
> > charger. You really should match all the blocks in the pack. Can
> > you find
> > room for another 12v block? Maybe if you dropped down a notch in
> > size for
> > the next pack?
> >
> > Could you fit 6-8 Saft STM5-100MR modules into that little bug? Or
> > maybe
> > some surplus aircraft nicad cells?
>
> The plan is to put ThunderSky 200AH cells in - probably shooting for
> a 42v nominal pack voltage, with Cedric Lynch's cell protectors on
> each cell. I should at least get a decent range then.
>
> If I can use a band-aid type fix (primarily for the pocket) until
> then I'll be happy!
>
> Nikki.
>
>
>
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> > To send a private message, please obtain my email address from
> > the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
>
>
> __________ NOD32 2015 (20070128) Information __________
>
> This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.
> http://www.eset.com
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The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
In Illinois you can get a rebate up to $4,000.00 from the alternative energy
program.
Other states have similar rebates.
They reimburse for the actual cost of parts used to do the conversion except
for the batteries.
Why the batteries don't count I'll never figure out. Are they expendable or
they consider them fuel?
Anyway, there is not too much of a problem getting up to $4,000.00 in parts.
I haven't received the rebate back yet, so maybe I'm a little optimistic, but
it should work out.
I had to submit invoices marked paid and/or copies of both sides of canceled
checks. Also, the car needs to be converted to the alternative fuel by a
company in Illinois - which was me. It's aimed at natural gas and propane
conversions for business and fleets.
The rest I got as incentives from area business people helping me with the
project. It didn't quite add up to $4,000.00 but almost if you count the
materials I wrestled away from them.
Ask someone familar with EV's in your state. I would have never found our state
rebate unless another EV owner mentioned it.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hi Dana,
>
> Can you explain more about how you got $8,000 of rebates, incentives and
> credits? The only thing I can find is the $1,000 Qualified Electric Vehicle
> Credit, form 8834 with the IRS.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bruce
> ____________________________________________________________________________
> _____
> Dana Havranek wrote:
> So it cost me $14,000.00 and that was reduced to about $6,000.00 with
> rebates, incentives and credits.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow. I'm surprised (and gratified) that you can even say that much.
Usually product testing is covered under very strict non-disclosure
agreements. I'm looking forward to hearing about the results!
MK
On 1/29/07, Sam Maynard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Friday I received a telephone call from Al Gotcher, CEO of Altairnano.
Roy Graham, with whom I originally had made the agreement to test a
battery pack for last October, had left the company and become an
"Altenative Energy Consultant". When that happened, I was suspicious,
as I was promised a pack January of this year and I hadn't heard back
from them until last Friday.
Anyway, the conversation with Dr. Gotcher went well, and we are
currently working out technical details of the test. He was not
surprised that there was skepticism in the EV community regarding the
validity of their technology, given his own knowledge of the plethora
of hype ou there. I don't think he would be following through with
this test if he wasn't confident that the batteries would perform as
they claim.
Their main hurdle now is the manufacturing process of the titanate
powder, and it's quality control. They had to sign an exclusive
agreement with Pheonix Motorcars on an order of 500 packs, because
Pheonix wanted to make sure they could produce enough batteries to
complete their order.
Unfortunately, I will have to return the pack after the test so they can
disect them (I didn't like that part).
This is all FYI, so please DO NOT pummel myself or the list with too
many questions and curiosities as I will provide all the information I
have AFTER I have recieved and tested the batteries.
-Sam Maynard
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nikki,
Your charger is broken.
I am not familiar with these Varta batteries, though it sounds
like they are flooded lead acids somewhere between SLI and deep
cycle application.
Floodeds can be hit with a higher voltage than sealed batteries,
but in general the charger should stay below 13.7V for the bulk
charging (no gassing) and only during the end of the charge cycle
the voltage can climb to somewhere around 15V per battery, while
the current is tapering down to avoid excessive over-charge.
For 3x12V the max voltage your charger delivers should be below
45V with maybe a slight bit over that during equalization, if the
charger has this setting.
53V/3 = 17.7V per battery, this is 3V higher than I ever set my
charger to, on rare occasions I have seen an out-of balance pack
push one battery to 16V but that is as bad as it gets and certainly
not an average voltage the charger shoudl supply.
>From what I hear you say, your charger has a short-circuit in its
output regulation and simply always delivers full tilt power from
its rectifier, without keeping thinks in a safe range.
It may be possible to repair your charger, otherwise get a good one
before you burn up your batteries.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of nikki
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 6:45 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Serious gassing when charging
Hi Guys and gals,
The Mini El has developed a penchant for serious gassing while
charging. It's got three, 12v Varta semi-tractions with a 5h rate of
75AH . I'm charging them with the stock MiniEl charger (came with the
vehicle and is I assume the standard fare for the car). No marking
etc on the charger so I really can't tell you more than that. I'm
probably going to open it up some time to see if there's any more
info inside.
At about 2 hours in the charger is going full pelt at anything
between 49 and 53 volts. I'm getting some serious gassing and my
garage stinks to high heaven. It's fairly well ventilated but I'm
seriously worried I'm giving the cells an equalizing charge every
time I plug in and it's not doing the batteries any good. I opened
the garage door last night and nearly frazzled myself with the smell
of the battery gas!
I've got a 6v cell which I add to the pack in series for driving to
give me that extra kick 42v nominal can give (It's much safer now
driving in traffic as I can accelerate with the rest of the traffic
and head up most hills at 30mph)
The 6v cell is charged individually with an off-the shelf intelligent
6v charger.
I either need a nice 42v charger that I can use on the whole pack
(someone mentioned a zivan may do the trick) or some solution to stop
the car from charging so fast and so hard. I want to make the
batteries last as long as I can and as I charge at night an 8 hour
charge isn't a problem!
Nikki.
_______________________________
Old car? New tricks?
Visit aminorjourney.com to see the transformation from Hebe to EV.
E-minor isn't just a key any more...
_______________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HA!
I'm not a she!
I run into that a lot now days.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Doug McKee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> She probably lives in California or Minnesota.
> In Texas we get squat.
> Doug
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If this is the truck, I'd say it's a pretty good deal. You'll want to
replace the controller and the charger in the long term (they're similar to
what I have now and I'm itchin' to upgrade) but they'll do well in
flat-country Florida. Also, the fact it has a lift-up bed with gas springs
is very nice. I wish I had that on my truck and I'm not quite sure how to
even get started on getting that done. I doubt it's something I could do.
Having an emeter is nice, too.
If you have a short and predictable commute, I'd even recommend finding some
golf courses and golf cart dealers in your area and seeing if you couldn't
put together a set of 20 used 6V batteries in decent shape so the first pack
you kill is inexpensive. Also, once you get a new pack after killing the
first one, you'll get the psychological boost of a peppier vehicle to make
up for the expense. :)
All that being said, I'm with Damon about looking up Steve Clunn and other
EVers in Florida. You have a good crop over there. Hey, maybe you'd even
be interested in waiting for the Freedom EV...
Matt
On 1/28/07, damon henry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
It sounds like you are talking about this truck on the EVAlbum.
http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?method=showdetails&list=advertisement&rollid=1285
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry Dana,
Do you live in one of the states guessed?
Doug
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dana Havranek
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 6:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Rebates/Incentives/Credits, Was: Debating purchasing an EV
HA!
I'm not a she!
I run into that a lot now days.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Doug McKee" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> She probably lives in California or Minnesota.
> In Texas we get squat.
> Doug
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends how you regard this,
The Nr 1053 (Emilio Ugarte) made the album reach 1000 valid entries,
the Nr 1000 was from Dale Henderson.
See the album.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 3:12 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
So who was # 1000. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 8:15 AM
Subject: Re: EV Album Hits The Magic 1000 Active Entries
> Good job with the website, Mike! Thanks for your efforts.
>
> Mark Ward
> St. Charles, MO
> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
>
>
>
>
> ---- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > We made it! It has been a long long haul, but the EV Album is now
> > 1000 entries strong. We actually have 1053 entries total, but 53 are
> > either retired, canceled, or incomplete.
> >
> > Thank you all so much for helping make this happen.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Mike Chancey
> > Webmaster
> > EV Photo Album
> > http://evalbum.com
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While I cannot find any rebates, new additions to my solar system can
result in tax credits up to $2000 with carry-over to future years if only
partially used.
From Page 4 of IRS form 5695 (2006):
"Qualified solar electric property costs are costs for property that
uses solar energy to generate electricity for use in a home located in the
United States and used as your home. This includes costs relating to a
solar panel or other property installed as a roof or a portion of a roof.
The home does not have to be your main home."
As my garage is part of my home, and I charge my EV in that garage, and
as the EV batteries serve to double my solar energy reserves
I intend to claim my new batteries and added solar panels and
accessories on my 2006 taxes. IRS does not specify how my house uses the
solar generated electricity.
While I am not an accountant I do my own taxes. If the IRS disallows
the tax credit I will just consider it to have been an IRS loan.
Penalties and interest cannot be that much.
Please do not consider this tax advice. It is just what I intend, and
would welcome any CPA tax comments.
John in Sylmar, CA
PV EV with $1400 of new (2006) batteries.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks everyone, it is nice to be appreciated. Since Aaron Choate
has been hosting it for me and Jerry Halstead did all the code on the
new site, it wasn't exactly all me. Really, you folks made it happen
and continue to make it happen by sharing your EVs with everyone else.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
Webmaster
EV Photo Album
http://evalbum.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, time for a quick reality check:
even if you could fit 6 220W units,
half the power is 1/2 x 6 x 220 = 660W.
(accounting for losses, wrong inclination as the
panels won't be aimed at the sun and voltage mismatch)
Even if you would be able to capture a full day
worth of sun, that would translate into about
4 or 5 "full sun" hours (accounting for worse
inclination in morning and evening) so this
gives you about 4.5 x 660 = 3000Wh.
Dependent on the efficiency of the van, assume 1/2 kWh/mi
this would give you 6 miles extra range in the evening.
Again, assuming that we can ignore added air resistance
and weight.
This panel is 5' x 3' and almost 2" thick according
http://www.sunpowercorp.com/pdf/SPR-220.pdf
and delivers 40V at 5.5A in their max power point.
Price per panel is about 2500 $AU, which is approx
0.77 x 2500 = US$ 1925 so 6 panels will require an
investment of US$ 11,550
Now add the DC/DC converter or charge regulator to
keep the panels in their max power point and you are
well above 12k dollars and in the best of cases you
can add 6 miles to your range each day.
If you do the math, you will see that even in the
most optimal of cases, you would spend about $1 per mile
for this range extension.
Since most EVs try to get their cost below $0.10 per mile
accounting for batteries and $0.02 for electricity cost,
the $1 per mile for adding solar electricity does not
really make sense, unless it solves a problem that you have.
For example if your EV is driven less than once a week and
you have no reliable access to a wall outlet, then this may
be a possible way to solve that problem.
Note that the Sunpower units are one of the most expensive
panels in existtence, because they are the highest efficiency
which means that you can go for much lower cost by lowering
the efficiency a bit. Solar panels can be had for under
$5 per watt so the total 1320W array should not cost more
than $6600, half the cost of SunPower 220.
Still at $0.50 per mile, if sounds awfully expensive to me.
Now, when you place the same panels at a sun-facing roof,
feed the power into batteries or the grid and get the
solar rebates that your government is handing out, the
balance can become a lot better, because losses are
greatly reduced, the nr of days is not dependent on your
driving somewhere and the inclination problems can get
an optimized solution, dropping the cost per kWh due to
the larger amount of kWh produced and utilized.
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Second Life: www.secondlife.com/?u=3b42cb3f4ae249319edb487991c30acb
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of xx xx
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 2:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: Alternate configurations for Heavy Vehicle/PV
panels
I agree that's the more efficient setup, without a
doubt. However, stationary panels cannot extend your
range. I know they won't extend it a lot, but let's
say you drive to work in the morning but you can't
park anywhere near an outlet. Your vehicle is parked
for 8-9 hours during the day sitting in the sun. Sure
it's not all peak generating time, but a 16 ft long 6
ft. wide van could give you about 90 sq.ft. of surface
area. You could fit 6 Sunpower 220 watt units,
totaling about 200 lbs. Even if you conservatively
rate them at half the output for average real world
conditions, that's over 1000 watts available.
I honestly don't know how this all would work out in
the real world but it seems as if a large van might
have enough area to make it worthwhile in certain
situations.
John
--- Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> John, put the PV panels on your house, garage, or
> business. You'll
> get better tax credits, can put up a bigger array to
> actually get
> some miles out of them, and they will be safer, not
> to mention
> leaving your roof clear for carrying whatever. A
> van roof full of
> panels will add almost no range because the
> batteries will only start
> taking their output once they you've started
> draining them, and
> you're adding weight. I've got them on my house,
> and the plug in the
> garage feeds the PV power directly to our EVs.
>
> Jerry
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Be a PS3 game guru.
Get your game face on with the latest PS3 news and previews at Yahoo! Games.
http://videogames.yahoo.com/platform?platform=120121
--- End Message ---
